9 ms·

If Intel decide to focus on Foundry, I just wish AMD and Intel could work together and make a subset clean up of x86 ISA open source or at least available for l

by ksec 10mo ago

If Intel decide to focus on Foundry, I just wish AMD and Intel could work together and make a subset clean up of x86 ISA open source or at least available for licensing. I dont want it to end up like MIPS or POWER ISA where everything is too little too late.

holowoodman 10mo ago
A subset of an ISA will be incompatible with the full ISA and therefore be a new ISA. No existing software will run on it. So this won't really help anyone. And x86 isn't that nice to begin with, if you do something incompatible, you might as well start from scratch and create a new, homogenous, well-designed and modern ISA.
- fooker 10mo ago
  Software or microcode emulation works pretty well. So it would be faster and more efficient when sticking to the new subset and Nx slower then using the emulation path.
  - kimixa 10mo ago
    You could argue that microcode emulation is what they do now.
    - fooker 10mo ago
      True, the only part that can not be solved by microcode emulation is faster decoding. Most architectures other than x86 have fixed sized machine instructions now, making decoding fast and predictable.
- ksec 10mo ago
  There are software compiled today without using MMX support. I was thinking the idea of something that is open or for licensing is an 86 ISA that is forward compatible. And for customers that requires strict backward compatibility they could still source it from AMD and Intel. i.e Software compiled for 86 should work on x86. The value for backward compatibility is kept with both Intel and AMD. If the market wants something in between they now have an option. I know this isn't a sexy idea because HN or most tech people like something shiny and new. But I have always like the idea of extracting value from the "old and tried" solutions.
  - Scoundreller 10mo ago
    Sadly over the past year, Spotify builds require AVX extensions. Had an issue updating my 2008 Dell semi-upgraded bench PC that has a Q9300 in it (no AVX on it) But thankfully I could install an old bin and lock it out from updating. Intel’s software development emulator might run the newest bin but variable how slow it might be. In other circumstances, the AVX extensions aren’t required but the app is compiled to fail if they’re not required: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/pix02j/hotfix_for_cyberpunk_2077_removes_avx_cpu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/pix02j/hotfix_for...
- inkyoto 10mo ago
  > A subset of an ISA will be incompatible with the full ISA and therefore be a new ISA. No existing software will run on it. So this won't really help anyone. This isn't an issue in any way. Vendors have been routinely taking out rarely used instructions from the hardware and simulating them in the software for decades as part of the ongoing ISA revision. Unimplemented instruction opcodes cause a CPU trap to occur where the missing instruction (s) is then emulated in the kernel's emulation layer. In fact, this is what was frequently done for «budget» 80[34]86 systems that lacked the FPU – it was emulated. It was slow as a dog but worked.
lloydatkinson 10mo ago
They recently killed off their recent attempt; x86s.
- tester756 10mo ago
  Wut? >AMD and Intel Celebrate First Anniversary of x86 Ecosystem Advisory Group Driving the Future of x86 Computing Oct 13, 2025 Standardizing x86 features Key technical milestones, include: FRED (Flexible Return and Event Delivery): Finalized as a standard feature, FRED introduces a modernized interrupt model designed to reduce latency and improve system software reliability. AVX10: Established as the next-generation vector and general-purpose instruction set extension, AVX10 boosts throughput while ensuring portability across client, workstation, and server CPUs. ChkTag: x86 Memory Tagging: To combat longstanding memory safety vulnerabilities such as buffer overflows and use-after-free errors, the EAG introduced ChkTag, a unified memory tagging specification. ChkTag adds hardware instructions to detect violations, helping secure applications1, operating systems, hypervisors, and firmware. With compiler and tooling support, developers gain fine-grained control without compromising performance. Notably, ChkTag-enabled software remains compatible with processors lacking hardware support, simplifying deployment and complementing existing security features like shadow stack and confidential computing. The full ChkTag specification is expected later this year – and for further feature details, please visit the ChkTag Blog. ACE (Advanced Matrix Extensions for Matrix Multiplication): Accepted and implemented across the stack, ACE standardizes matrix multiplication capabilities, enabling seamless developer experiences across devices ranging from laptops to data center servers.
  - wtallis 10mo ago
    Copying and pasting a press release does not make for a good comment. Especially because you don't seem to have understood what you pasted in, or the context of this discussion. What you're demonstrating is several more new features added to the pile. Intel's retracted X86S proposal was actually about removing legacy features, creating a cleaner subset for the modern era.
    - 10mo ago
fulafel 10mo ago
90s x86 from ISA pov is already free to use, no? The original patents must have expired and there's no copyright protection of ISAs. The thing keeping the symbiotic cross-licensed duopoly going is mutating the ISA all the time so they can mix in more recently patented stuff.
- tracker1 10mo ago
  AFAIK, most of event x86_64 patents are largely expired, or will be within the next 6 years. That said, efforts for a more open platform are probably more likely to be centered around risc or another arm alternative than x86... While I could see a standardization of x86 compatible shortcuts for use with emulation platforms on arm/risc processors. Transmeta was an idea too far ahead of its time.
  - fulafel 10mo ago
    Remembering the Mac ARM transition pain wrt Docker and Node/Python/Lambda cross builds targeting servers, there's a lot to be said for binary compatibility.
    - cmrdporcupine 10mo ago
      90% of those problems effect people like you and I, developers and power users, not "regular" users of machines who are mostly mobile device and occasional laptop/desktop application users. I suspect we'll see somebody -- a phone manufacturer or similar device -- make a major transition to RISC-V from ARM etc in the next 10 years that we won't even notice.
      - fulafel 10mo ago
        I agree, some will, but it may not be a more open platform from developer POV.
    - tracker1 10mo ago
      You're doing builds for Docker on your desktop for direct deployment instead of through a CI/CD service? My biggest issue was the number of broken apps in Docker on Arm based Macs, and even then was mostly able to work around it without much trouble.
IshKebab 10mo ago
Far too late for that. Does anyone seriously think ARM isn't going to obliterate x86 in the next 10-20 years?
- tracker1 10mo ago
  Well, given some of the political/legal gamesmanship over the company itself the past few years, it could very well self destruct in favor of RISC-V or something else entirely in the next decade, who knows.
- izacus 10mo ago
  20 years is half of x86's lifetime and less than half of the lifetime of home computing as we know it. So this is kind of a useless question, because in such a timespan anything can happen. 20 years ago computers had somewhere around 512MB of RAM and a single core and had a CRT on desk.
- fulafel 10mo ago
  Look how long SPARC, z/Architecture, PowerPC etc have kept going even after they lost their strong positions on the market (a development which is nowhere in sight for x86), and they had a tiny fraction of the inertia of x86 softare base. Obliterating x86 in that time would take quite a lot more than what the ARM trajectory is now. It's had 40 years to try by now and the technical advantage window (power efficieny advantage) has closed.
  - IshKebab 10mo ago
    To be clear if x86 is ever as unpopular as SPARC or PowerPC I would consider that to be obliterated. I was thinking more like if it falls to 10% of desktop/laptop/server market share, which is still waaaaaay more then the nearly-dead architectures you listed.
    - fulafel 10mo ago
      Couldn't resist picking at semantics here: Things that have < 10% market share - macOS - all car manufacturers except Toyota Things that history considers obliterated: - The city of Pompeii - districts of Hiroshima within the bomb's blast radius
tester756 10mo ago
>I just wish AMD and Intel could work together and make a subset clean up of x86 ISA AMD and Intel Celebrate First Anniversary of x86 Ecosystem Advisory Group Driving the Future of x86 Computing Standardizing x86 features Key technical milestones, include: FRED (Flexible Return and Event Delivery): Finalized as a standard feature, FRED introduces a modernized interrupt model designed to reduce latency and improve system software reliability. AVX10: Established as the next-generation vector and general-purpose instruction set extension, AVX10 boosts throughput while ensuring portability across client, workstation, and server CPUs. ChkTag: x86 Memory Tagging: To combat longstanding memory safety vulnerabilities such as buffer overflows and use-after-free errors, the EAG introduced ChkTag, a unified memory tagging specification. ChkTag adds hardware instructions to detect violations, helping secure applications1, operating systems, hypervisors, and firmware. With compiler and tooling support, developers gain fine-grained control without compromising performance. Notably, ChkTag-enabled software remains compatible with processors lacking hardware support, simplifying deployment and complementing existing security features like shadow stack and confidential computing. The full ChkTag specification is expected later this year – and for further feature details, please visit the ChkTag Blog. ACE (Advanced Matrix Extensions for Matrix Multiplication): Accepted and implemented across the stack, ACE standardizes matrix multiplication capabilities, enabling seamless developer experiences across devices ranging from laptops to data center servers.

by ksec 10mo ago

holowoodman 10mo ago

A subset of an ISA will be incompatible with the full ISA and therefore be a new ISA. No existing software will run on it. So this won't really help anyone. And x86 isn't that nice to begin with, if you do something incompatible, you might as well start from scratch and create a new, homogenous, well-designed and modern ISA.

fooker 10mo ago
Software or microcode emulation works pretty well. So it would be faster and more efficient when sticking to the new subset and Nx slower then using the emulation path.
- kimixa 10mo ago
  You could argue that microcode emulation is what they do now.
  - fooker 10mo ago
    True, the only part that can not be solved by microcode emulation is faster decoding. Most architectures other than x86 have fixed sized machine instructions now, making decoding fast and predictable.
ksec 10mo ago
There are software compiled today without using MMX support. I was thinking the idea of something that is open or for licensing is an 86 ISA that is forward compatible. And for customers that requires strict backward compatibility they could still source it from AMD and Intel. i.e Software compiled for 86 should work on x86. The value for backward compatibility is kept with both Intel and AMD. If the market wants something in between they now have an option. I know this isn't a sexy idea because HN or most tech people like something shiny and new. But I have always like the idea of extracting value from the "old and tried" solutions.
- Scoundreller 10mo ago
  Sadly over the past year, Spotify builds require AVX extensions. Had an issue updating my 2008 Dell semi-upgraded bench PC that has a Q9300 in it (no AVX on it) But thankfully I could install an old bin and lock it out from updating. Intel’s software development emulator might run the newest bin but variable how slow it might be. In other circumstances, the AVX extensions aren’t required but the app is compiled to fail if they’re not required: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/pix02j/hotfix_for_cyberpunk_2077_removes_avx_cpu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/pix02j/hotfix_for...
inkyoto 10mo ago
> A subset of an ISA will be incompatible with the full ISA and therefore be a new ISA. No existing software will run on it. So this won't really help anyone. This isn't an issue in any way. Vendors have been routinely taking out rarely used instructions from the hardware and simulating them in the software for decades as part of the ongoing ISA revision. Unimplemented instruction opcodes cause a CPU trap to occur where the missing instruction (s) is then emulated in the kernel's emulation layer. In fact, this is what was frequently done for «budget» 80[34]86 systems that lacked the FPU – it was emulated. It was slow as a dog but worked.

lloydatkinson 10mo ago

They recently killed off their recent attempt; x86s.

tester756 10mo ago
Wut? >AMD and Intel Celebrate First Anniversary of x86 Ecosystem Advisory Group Driving the Future of x86 Computing Oct 13, 2025 Standardizing x86 features Key technical milestones, include: FRED (Flexible Return and Event Delivery): Finalized as a standard feature, FRED introduces a modernized interrupt model designed to reduce latency and improve system software reliability. AVX10: Established as the next-generation vector and general-purpose instruction set extension, AVX10 boosts throughput while ensuring portability across client, workstation, and server CPUs. ChkTag: x86 Memory Tagging: To combat longstanding memory safety vulnerabilities such as buffer overflows and use-after-free errors, the EAG introduced ChkTag, a unified memory tagging specification. ChkTag adds hardware instructions to detect violations, helping secure applications1, operating systems, hypervisors, and firmware. With compiler and tooling support, developers gain fine-grained control without compromising performance. Notably, ChkTag-enabled software remains compatible with processors lacking hardware support, simplifying deployment and complementing existing security features like shadow stack and confidential computing. The full ChkTag specification is expected later this year – and for further feature details, please visit the ChkTag Blog. ACE (Advanced Matrix Extensions for Matrix Multiplication): Accepted and implemented across the stack, ACE standardizes matrix multiplication capabilities, enabling seamless developer experiences across devices ranging from laptops to data center servers.
- wtallis 10mo ago
  Copying and pasting a press release does not make for a good comment. Especially because you don't seem to have understood what you pasted in, or the context of this discussion. What you're demonstrating is several more new features added to the pile. Intel's retracted X86S proposal was actually about removing legacy features, creating a cleaner subset for the modern era.
  - 10mo ago

fulafel 10mo ago

90s x86 from ISA pov is already free to use, no? The original patents must have expired and there's no copyright protection of ISAs. The thing keeping the symbiotic cross-licensed duopoly going is mutating the ISA all the time so they can mix in more recently patented stuff.

tracker1 10mo ago
AFAIK, most of event x86_64 patents are largely expired, or will be within the next 6 years. That said, efforts for a more open platform are probably more likely to be centered around risc or another arm alternative than x86... While I could see a standardization of x86 compatible shortcuts for use with emulation platforms on arm/risc processors. Transmeta was an idea too far ahead of its time.
- fulafel 10mo ago
  Remembering the Mac ARM transition pain wrt Docker and Node/Python/Lambda cross builds targeting servers, there's a lot to be said for binary compatibility.
  - cmrdporcupine 10mo ago
    90% of those problems effect people like you and I, developers and power users, not "regular" users of machines who are mostly mobile device and occasional laptop/desktop application users. I suspect we'll see somebody -- a phone manufacturer or similar device -- make a major transition to RISC-V from ARM etc in the next 10 years that we won't even notice.
    - fulafel 10mo ago
      I agree, some will, but it may not be a more open platform from developer POV.
  - tracker1 10mo ago
    You're doing builds for Docker on your desktop for direct deployment instead of through a CI/CD service? My biggest issue was the number of broken apps in Docker on Arm based Macs, and even then was mostly able to work around it without much trouble.

IshKebab 10mo ago

Far too late for that. Does anyone seriously think ARM isn't going to obliterate x86 in the next 10-20 years?

tracker1 10mo ago
Well, given some of the political/legal gamesmanship over the company itself the past few years, it could very well self destruct in favor of RISC-V or something else entirely in the next decade, who knows.
izacus 10mo ago
20 years is half of x86's lifetime and less than half of the lifetime of home computing as we know it. So this is kind of a useless question, because in such a timespan anything can happen. 20 years ago computers had somewhere around 512MB of RAM and a single core and had a CRT on desk.
fulafel 10mo ago
Look how long SPARC, z/Architecture, PowerPC etc have kept going even after they lost their strong positions on the market (a development which is nowhere in sight for x86), and they had a tiny fraction of the inertia of x86 softare base. Obliterating x86 in that time would take quite a lot more than what the ARM trajectory is now. It's had 40 years to try by now and the technical advantage window (power efficieny advantage) has closed.
- IshKebab 10mo ago
  To be clear if x86 is ever as unpopular as SPARC or PowerPC I would consider that to be obliterated. I was thinking more like if it falls to 10% of desktop/laptop/server market share, which is still waaaaaay more then the nearly-dead architectures you listed.
  - fulafel 10mo ago
    Couldn't resist picking at semantics here: Things that have < 10% market share - macOS - all car manufacturers except Toyota Things that history considers obliterated: - The city of Pompeii - districts of Hiroshima within the bomb's blast radius

tester756 10mo ago

>I just wish AMD and Intel could work together and make a subset clean up of x86 ISA AMD and Intel Celebrate First Anniversary of x86 Ecosystem Advisory Group Driving the Future of x86 Computing Standardizing x86 features Key technical milestones, include: FRED (Flexible Return and Event Delivery): Finalized as a standard feature, FRED introduces a modernized interrupt model designed to reduce latency and improve system software reliability. AVX10: Established as the next-generation vector and general-purpose instruction set extension, AVX10 boosts throughput while ensuring portability across client, workstation, and server CPUs. ChkTag: x86 Memory Tagging: To combat longstanding memory safety vulnerabilities such as buffer overflows and use-after-free errors, the EAG introduced ChkTag, a unified memory tagging specification. ChkTag adds hardware instructions to detect violations, helping secure applications1, operating systems, hypervisors, and firmware. With compiler and tooling support, developers gain fine-grained control without compromising performance. Notably, ChkTag-enabled software remains compatible with processors lacking hardware support, simplifying deployment and complementing existing security features like shadow stack and confidential computing. The full ChkTag specification is expected later this year – and for further feature details, please visit the ChkTag Blog. ACE (Advanced Matrix Extensions for Matrix Multiplication): Accepted and implemented across the stack, ACE standardizes matrix multiplication capabilities, enabling seamless developer experiences across devices ranging from laptops to data center servers.