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BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove
- georgefrowny 11mo agoNot the first product to do this. Jura coffee machines also have their own oval-ish fasteners. In fact, it's really quite amazing that car manufacturers, generational artisans of the vendor lock-in have not been doing this at a far greater scale. Think of all those generic screws they could be charging $50 each for. No one buys or doesn't buy cars based on the screw heads. If they did they'd also reject cars that require thousands in probes and an annual subscription to use them, and they don't. It's not even that they don't have their own screws made by tier 1/2s, as if you look in a car, many seemingly-ordinary screws do in fact have the brand and part number stamped in the heads - presumably for stock and quality control purposes during manufacture.
- HPsquared 11mo agoPeople are indeed slowly checking out of buying new cars.
- gessha 11mo agoProblem is if we bury our heads and drive old cars, when they give out and it’s time to buy a new car, all the news cars will have so much of this crap in them they will be unusable and you will be stuck with a lemon.
- georgefrowny 11mo agoIt's also basically impossible to have any EV that isn't an iPad on wheels. I'm not even opposed to the mod-cons, it's just the irreparability, lock-in, touchscreen-centrism and planned obsolescence they basically all shoehorned into their new platforms.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- blell 11mo agoThis is outrageous and anti-customer. I’m completely sure the EU will be all over it any day now.
- rany_ 11mo agoNot if it's their own car industry. They'll only throw the book at foreign companies.
- tpm 11mo agoAll of that will be accessible for third parties, because afaik it has to be in the EU. The cost is a different question, but I think that's not a surprise for BMW customers.
- xienze 11mo agoI don't see how "oh third parties can get a bit for it" is really an acceptable answer. Lightning cables are readily available but that wasn't consumer-friendly enough for the EU. I think the parent is right, let Ford try this and see how quickly the EU goes after them, because this is quite frankly very anti-consumer.
- tpm 11mo agoThat is a different legislation. Ford in the EU is a european car manufacturer with around 100 years of history, so yeah, I think the answer will be the same as for BMW. And sure, car makers have special status - they have just recently secured a huge win in reducing the scope of emmission-related fines, which will now be charged from 10g/km instead of 0g/km from 2035. But this too applies to every manufacturer.
- xienze 11mo ago> That is a different legislation. I understand the legislation is different, but the anti-consumer sentiment is the same, but worse in this case since I have a feeling the screw bit won't be nearly as available and cheap as Lightning cables are. > Ford in the EU is a european car manufacturer An American company with factories in the EU. I don't think it's the same as a company headquartered in the EU.
- throwaway81523 11mo agoSparkle wrench can handle it.
- bovinator23 11mo agoEven if it were fairly specific, I’d be surprised if a similar tool couldn’t be 3D printed with DMLS. It’s possible that due to torsion requirements it would have to be molded, which could be much more expensive. Either way, this is hardly a case where others will be prevented from removing these screws for very long, even if they were to try to enforce that others couldn’t produce a similar tool because of the logo. It is a sad state of affairs when the only way to attempt to get others to use your services is to attempt to block them. But, unlike attempting to remove DRM encryption, where it might be a challenge to reverse engineer, a physical object of a single standard material can be easily scanned and reproduced.
- zrobotics 11mo agoThis is an inherently weak fastener design, it requires the driver to have 2 separate 'pins' to fit the 2 quadrants of the logo. Even with a proper forged tool this will be weaker than a torx or hex bit. Basically the only way this would be manufacturable is 2 forged pins shaped like quarter circles that are pressed into a socket. This isn't that different to how other bit sockets are made, but instead of loading the bit in torsion, it will be subject to bending forces to loosen the bolt. This will make it far weaker than other tools. So good luck loosening these once they have a few years of corrosion on them. Plus, with the head design, they'll be far harder to drill out to get a bolt extractor on. Although 3d printing and scanning don't really help that much here.
- mschuster91 11mo ago> Even if it were fairly specific, I’d be surprised if a similar tool couldn’t be 3D printed with DMLS. It’s possible that due to torsion requirements it would have to be molded, which could be much more expensive. A CNC mill should also be capable of creating an usable driver bit, or in a pinch, drill out 1mm center of an ordinary + bit.
- voidUpdate 11mo agoPlus, if you you are handy enough to be taking the screws out of your car but don't have a CNC mill, you probably know someone who does, who would love a little weekend project to turn you up a nice BMW screwdriver
- rationalist 11mo agoEdit: thank you! Original Source (per the HN Guidelines): https://carbuzz.com/bmw-roundel-logo-screw-patent/ https://carbuzz.com/bmw-roundel-logo-screw-patent/ (Also has the drawings of the screws from the patents.)
- kotaKat 11mo ago… So they didn’t want to just pay Bryce Fastener to give them their own “proprietary” screw? They’ve been in this market for decades with “custom” security screws for vendors, among other things. https://www.brycefastener.com/ https://www.brycefastener.com/
- Youden 11mo agoIsn't it relatively trivial to remove one of these by epoxying something to it or using a drill or dremel to modify it in some way (e.g. dremel a slot that a standard flathead can turn, or drill and use a screw remover)? Or is the purpose less to prevent people from removing the screw and more tamper evidence? Even in that case, with a photo or impression of the screw head, an unauthorized key/bit could be produced with with 3D printing (JLC3DP offers it cheap) or EDM.
- throwaway173738 11mo agoIf its on the wheel hub you’re going to need more than a dremel to do that, and you’re going to need something that breaks less than a flat head. There’s a reason they don’t make flat heads for impact drivers.
- kotaKat 11mo agoThe button head is designed to be low profile and is rounded off enough to prevent tools from getting a good bite into it to cut a slot; on top of that they’ve designed these fasteners to torque super tight down (including ‘claw-like’ serrations on the bottom of the screwhwead) to basically require their tool so the bit doesn’t snap off if you try to make a duplicate.
- cookiengineer 11mo agoThat already is old news, lots of manufacturers do that. For example, the Passat 3B and later platforms introduced proprietary screws for the wheels and brakes, so you weren't able to change them yourself. Same for all kinds of sensors that will go rogue when the car is turned off and you change a sensor on the engine. All firmware gradually was modified each generation to allow less modifications and less self repairs, and less repairs by third party workshops. Also, the Golf 2 platform for example had a very sturdy engine running beyond 1 Mio km easily. What do you think happened with the Golf 3 engine design? They made the camshaft structurally weaker, so the engine will blow up more easily. The rest of the engine is almost identical. Talk about being bad at hiding planned obsolescence. There's many more examples like this, acrosd every manufacturer. The real reason why there is so many people on race tracks driving old cars is because they're easier to modify, easier to maintain, and easier to buy replacement parts for. It's ridiculous if you think about it, and really frustrating that there is no legislative intervention against this.
- markus_zhang 11mo agoGuess eventually people will buy the cheapest cars and treat it as a consumer product that breaks down every few years, like a laptop. Or simply find a remote job and rent a car. Welcome to the Dystopian world.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- georgefrowny 11mo ago> Guess eventually people will buy the cheapest car It looks like lots of people choose to lease very expensive cars, and give them back after 3 years for a new one, dropping a obsolescence time-bomb onto the second-hand market and providing a strong signal to manufacturers that there is a substantial maintainability-insensitive market segment. I am still surprised that no manufacturer has a balls-out "buy our cars, they will NEVER DIE, anyone can service them, and your kids will still be driving them" model, as they might have lower returns from not gouging over subscriptions, planned obsolescence and parts and software lock-in shenanigans, but they'd instantly capture a market segment.
- mrweasel 11mo agoGreat, now I need an extra large bit set. I really don't see the point of this, it won't take a year for that bit to appear on shelves at the local hardware store if people need it. I have bit sets containing ever imaginable "security" bit, security torx are pretty much standard in set now. So are the weird flathead with the middle cut out. You almost can't buy an iFixIt kit without Apples stupid pentalob bit. This is just another bit to add to the collection, BMW will achieve nothing by introducing it. The design is neat though, using their logo at the head of the screw is sort of cute. Completely unnecessary, but cute.
- arealaccount 11mo agoI think the schtick is they can block these tools from being sold via trademark infringement. Thats why the BMW logo is in fact necessary
- Kirby64 11mo agoThis wouldn’t hold up in court, to my knowledge. If you have a tool that is solely designed this way for technical reasons, then there isnt trademark infringement. Just make sure to market it as the “B” screwdriver or whatever. The same thing with the Nintendo case for their logo on cartridge protection, I don’t think that ever held up in court.
- dingdingdang 11mo agoYeah: thanks, that's a clear patent on not having me as a customer then
- belorn 11mo agoLike with smart TV with advertisements, the locked down cars will provide revenue after sale for the manufacturer. Thus they will mass produce and sell those cars for a cheaper price, while adding a significant markup on the non-locked down cars to be primarily sold to commercial partners at lower batches. The cheaper mass produced one will significant out compete the other ones to the point where most dealers will no longer sell those more expensive versions. Most customers won't even know the difference when they buy the car, and why should the seller go out of their way to inform the buyer when most people just care about the sticker price anyway. Having locked down products also allow the manufacturer and dealer to form a agreement of sharing some of the post-sale revenue. The dealer can have their own shops for repair which the customer are now forced to use, naturally at a steep markup, and the manufacturer get a slice for every repair. The cheaper sticker price can then be decreased further since the dealer now have an additional revenue after sale. The customer can go to an other manufacturer approved shop, but then how many of those exists in the same city, and the manufacturer can artificial limit how many shops get approved in the same location. The story is the same across any number of industries right now. Customer choice is not a argument for the manufacturer to not do it. If you as the customer want to opt out, the only choice after a while will be to not buy a car or buy the expensive ones for double the cost.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 11mo agoYou don't entirely get to opt out. If you crash into a BMW, you'll still have to pay for the now-inflated cost of the repair - most likely through the mandatory liability insurance. Insurance premiums have gone through the roof, to a big part not just due to insurance company greed but because cars and repairs to them became more expensive.
- transcriptase 11mo agoOnly dealerships and anyone with a few bucks to spend on Aliexpress once someone bothers making a removal tool.
- firesteelrain 11mo agoOr flathead screwdriver
- IAmBroom 11mo agoAnd a dremel with a cutter wheel. Your answer is silly without that.
- firesteelrain 10mo agoPlease don’t act like this
- blauditore 11mo agoYes, that's why I love AliExpress. It evens the playing fieldin such cases, to some degree.
- georgefrowny 11mo agoIf in Europe, they're going to "fix" that with a €3 flat fee per item to cover "import duty" under €150 in July (on top of VAT which is already charged since 2021). Which a huge scam, because there's no way that an average €10 Euro widget has a 30% tariff on it, and I'm pretty sure that very many things things are 0%.
- pjc50 11mo ago3 euro is actually reasonable just to even out the delivery costs - it is usually cheaper to post something from China than it is intra-EU, because of the international postal union rules.
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- elromulous 11mo agoThey must have thought it's _so_ clever that the screw/bit is their logo.
- rollcat 11mo agoNintendo has done this exact thing with the GameBoy: https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/11736 https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/11736 If you mess with the logo, the console locks up during boot. If you don't, you're violating the trademark.
- blauditore 11mo agoJust like Apple with their pentagonal screws, or whatever it was. I'm sure there's even some twisted argument along the lines of "we're just doing it for user safety".
- IAmBroom 11mo agoThe patent actually reads "to prevent access by unauthorized persons", in TFA. Meaning the users. And your neighborhood mechanic.
- madduci 11mo agoThe solution is simple: just stop buying BMW.
- t0mas88 11mo agoIt's like they don't understand that making life difficult for owners isn't good for business long term. People put up with it for Apple, but BMW isn't Apple. I wouldn't go without an iPhone but swapping a BMW for an Audi or Tesla is no problem.
- fsckboy 11mo ago>People put up with it for Apple, but BMW isn't Apple. Actually, for making devices I wanted to own and operate, BMW actually has been Apple, and Apple has never been an Apple up with which I will put. But when I test drove new BMWs 3 or 4 years ago, they weren't Apples any more. So I bought a Porsche Apple. this feature I like in a car is being able to feel the road and the inertia of the car through handling the steering wheel. Too much power-steering or suspension isolation (or something) and it feels like you're driving a marshmallow. Apple computers have similar qualities on many dimensions actually. "hey look, you can cook a marshmallow on a stick and you can even eat it off the stick, let's make the UX be one stick!" "just one stick?" "yes, just ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶t̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶o̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶n̶u̶ ̶b̶a̶r̶ one stick!"... "hey look, Steve Narcisstick, you can even poke the mouse the one stick!" "no, I spell my name Narcissdick")
- t0mas88 11mo agoI agree, after 6 BMWs I'm now looking at other options. The new models don't work well for me. And things like the original adaptive suspension that the 6 and 7 series had (e.g. active antirollbars, true variable steering ratio and rear wheel steering) have been downgraded in newer models. Their EVs also aren't that good. They're trying to catch up instead of leading innovation, while still at a high price point.
- hypeatei 11mo agoI can't imagine this move would scare away potential BMW owners. The people buying these cars are rich and never service it at a third party. Also, the reputation of BMWs is well known: hard to work on, expensive, and lose value very fast.
- mwexler 11mo agoWatch makers have moved to this model over the last few years as well. The Swatch group has restricted access to movements and parts by acquiring major movement manufacturers, forcing the industry to use duplicate parts, some produced in violation of patents (dep on region). The patents attempt to protect proprietary approaches adding complexity through unique pieces, which rarely add functionality or new value. BTW, none of this is surprising from BMW. They were the first to try a subscription model for in-car features like Carplay... Or seat heaters. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30139034/bmw-apple-carplay-free/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30139034/bmw-apple-carpla... and https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/bmw-relents-on-heated-seat-subscription.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/bmw-relents-on-heated-seat-...
- IAmBroom 11mo ago"Wait, Boeing made life-saving features an expensive option, and almost got away with it??? Get marketing on the phone! We need to double down on our evil."
- SanjayMehta 11mo agoI have one Swatch automatic which can not be opened or serviced or repaired. Sistem 51. Once you're out of warranty you're done. Meanwhile my dad's 40 year old Swiss automatic has been serviced just 2 times, and the last time was 10 years ago when the integrated bracelet broke.
- criddell 11mo agoYou probably should be getting the automatic serviced every 10 years. That basically involves cleaning it, replacing the mainspring, and applying new lubricant. If it's a dive watch, they would also replace the gaskets which dry out.
- SanjayMehta 11mo agoThe last time I persuaded him to give it for service he complained that the service cost was 3x what he had paid for the watch in the first place. For months. He had fashioned a strap for the watch using a piece of rubber when the bracelet broke and was perfectly happy with that unsightly arrangement.
- bethekidyouwant 11mo agoSurprisingly, we voted for this with our wallets. Heated seats and awd are very popular here.
- 0xbadc0de5 11mo agoMy angle grinder begs to differ.
- backtogeek 11mo agoGive it a week, there will be a tool out of China that works just fine, the right to repair by brute force!
- estebarb 11mo agoI don't understand the European Union: they can force USB C on everyone but they cannot enforce standard screws?
- davewritescode 11mo agoI think people are overreacting about what amounts to a patent. There's no evidence if BMW will actually use this and if they do how. I'm not defending BMW here but there was a similar freak-out a few years ago about heated seats requiring monthly payments that ended up being a giant nothing burger.
- elzbardico 11mo agoThe discerning DIYer will be well advised to look for such tools in chinese e-marketplaces before paying BMW outrageous "free-market tax" for them.
- pjc50 11mo agoChinese manufacturers: hundred of different companies competing in the free market with a relaxed attitude to intellectual property, producing extremely cheap customer friendly vehicles. This system is called "communism". Western manufacturers: increasing lock-in to preserve revenues of middlemen
- cromka 11mo agoCommunism = "different companies competing in the free market"?
- general1465 11mo agoThat's the irony of the post you are answering to.
- cromka 11mo agoYeah, my bad, I get it now.
- pjc50 11mo agoI shouldn't do jokes on HN, but if you look at the Chinese car market, it looks exactly like free market competition. Consolidation will come eventually, as it did to Europe with Stellantis. https://www.carscoops.com/2025/09/chart-with-chinese-car-brands-will-make-your-head-spin/ https://www.carscoops.com/2025/09/chart-with-chinese-car-bra...
- cromka 11mo agoOh, my bad, I get the irony now!
- general1465 11mo agoJust days before it will be available on AliExpress with standard socket for 5USD/10pcs
- didntknowyou 11mo agook so instead of innovating on car tech/EVs/etc they decided to spend their efforts on making profit moats?
- silexia 11mo agoAll patent law needs to be abolished. The excuse for it is that supposedly it protects inventors is totally false. Innovation is 99% perspiration.
- Terretta 11mo agoSeven hours in, all comments assume this is to screw the car owner. But FTA: BMW really does want to use these to stop people from working on their own cars. It spells out in the patent that "the shape of the engagement recesses prevents the screw from being loosened or tightened using common counter-drive structures, e.g. by unauthorized persons." That's straight from BMW. The second sentence is key: "unauthorized" can be woke-speak for thief, and this device doesn't seem to require a single key per car which has been a PITA for VW/BMW in the past. The first sentence can then be edited to simply: BMW really does want to use these to stop people from removing wheels from cars they don't own. Before you object the thieves will just go get the tool: professionals yes, opportunistic, no. This is enough of a real issue in some places there's a discount on theft insurance for car contents and parts when you have wheel theft prevention devices (e.g. wheel or hub locks). Granted, the insurers might not see this as actuarially meaningful, it might just be extra revenue from people who care about their wheels, but then you'd expect to see it everywhere.
- Anonbrit 11mo agoWe need right-to-repair laws so that this patent can't be enforced