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by Lapel2742 10mo ago
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- pembrook 10mo agoThey did not, this is all political ragebait journalism and memes.
- alphager 10mo agoDisbanding the EU is an official goal of the new US security strategy.
- mlrtime 10mo agoDivide and conquer is working well it seems. There is no conspiracy, sorry.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoThe EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Your framing is off, I'm afraid. Across Europe, most people see the EU as more good than bad, especially compared to the alternative of countries acting alone. At the same time, support is often cautious rather than enthusiastic.
- nephihaha 10mo agoVoter turn out is extremely low in certain central and eastern Europe for EU elections. I think it was down to under 20% in some places a few years ago. I had hoped that the UK would vote to remain and Europe would move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, but it's got worse especially since 2020. The EU is its own worst enemy.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, EU is authoritarian? Why do you think that?
- nephihaha 10mo agoIt is restricting freedom of expression, and increasing public surveillance.
- jeltz 10mo agoThe EU is what held back the surveillance in the UK. Post brexit they went all in on surveillance.
- nephihaha 10mo agoBoth the UK and the EU are rolling in censorship, surveillance and digital ID.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoYou've literally just contradicted your own post in this thread.
- nephihaha 10mo agoNo, I haven't. Both the UK and EU are doing many of the same things. You can argue that the EU is bureaucratic without supporting bureaucracy within the UK. These are not contradictory positions.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoYou claimed that the UK leaving was bad as they were more liberal, and then noted that they were also doing lots of anti privacy stuff. Seems a little contradictory to me.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoI've never seen any pro-EU attitude in the European countries I've lived in. Except for among the political and media class. But those aren't representatives of the general population. But I haven't lived in central Europe, like Germany, Belgium, etc. Where the attitudes seem to be quite pro-EU. The original statement still stands. Europe is not the EU. The EU is not Europe.
- saubeidl 10mo agoThat is more indicative of the company you keep than the actual reality on the ground. https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-strong-support-brussels.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-stron...
- phatfish 10mo agoWhich Europeans have you "talked" to? Discord and twitter don't count. People moan about the EU like they moan about their own national government. Opinion polls on actually leaving the EU show a minority in favour. Most Europeans saw Brexit play out and realise sticking the finger up at your neighbours is not a winning strategy.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoI guess real life doesn't count either? Good that we can rely on HN and Reddit, where the pro-EU sentiment is strong. I just haven't seen that in real life, which is why I suggest maybe it might be particular to Germans and probably Belgians and Dutch.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoWhere have you lived in the EU? I think that the EU is mostly mediocre rather like our national governments.
- darubedarob 10mo agoBrexit was ironically mostly an anti immigration vote. It has thoroughly demolished the involved parties that the one thing promised has not come to pass.
- Lapel2742 10mo ago> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Maybe you should get out of your right-wing bubble. - EU approval among its citizens hits record high as security fears grow, poll shows (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-citizens-hits-record-high-security-fears-grow-poll-shows-2025-03-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-c...) - Nearly three quarters of EU citizens (74%) say that, taking everything into account, their country has benefited from being a member of the EU. (https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378)
- nephihaha 10mo agoThe EU is busy clamping down on freedom of expression and forcing through Digital ID. It isn't some paradise. There are things I like about the EU, but it also has some things horribly wrong.
- Lapel2742 10mo ago> It isn't some paradise. Compared to the USA it still is.
- nephihaha 10mo agoThe EU has better healthcare and welfare overall, but fewer individual rights in other areas. Less gun crime (although this depends on region). Poverty levels vary a lot across the EU. Americans take homeschooling for granted, for better or worse, but it is banned in some European countries like Germany. Also the USA allows groups such as the Amish their liberty, which would be extremely unlikely in much of the EU where state interference would either force them out or destroy them. The US has umpteen issues but is much better for freedom of expression frankly, although it is being steered away from that.
- watwut 10mo agoRight now EU is not arresting own citizens for failure to provide ID card while america does that even when said people have id card. EU is not demanding 5 yeara of social media public from kids entering in. EU is not killing fisherman to feel manly. EU is overall more democratic and more free. The parts that sux Hungary and Slovakia dont sux because of EU, but despite it. It is ok for Germany to not have homeschooling.
- ulfw 10mo agoYou have no idea what you're talking about. Stop generalising. You don't know what Europeans think at all "except for the Germans"
- carlosjobim 10mo agoI have an idea of what I'm talking about. I say that the EU is not Europe. Nor is Europe the EU. People in these conversations need to understand the difference, because it is significant. Norway, Great Britain, Iceland and Switzerland aren't in the EU.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoAll of those bar the UK are in the EEA though.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoYes, but those are only trade and border agreements, and don't give the EU influence on internal political matters. Compare similar trade agreements between other nations, such as between the United States and their neighbours.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo ago> Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements Honestly goods and service regulations are probably the biggest infringement of sovereignty as it signs all of your companies up to arbitrary standards. That may be a good idea, but to pretend that it's somehow less important than other pooling of sovereignty seems strange to me.
- pezezin 10mo agoSpanish guy here: no, we don't hate the EU, quite the opposite. Please stop feeding on right-wing propaganda that wants to destroy us.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoUnfortunately you live in the wrong time and age. You'd like to report to your local commissar when somebody expresses opinions and ideas against the cherished government - "he's a right wing propagandist who seeks to destroy us!". But it's not the 20th century anymore, and all you can do is scream into the cyber void.
- pezezin 10mo agoDude please, my country endured 40 years of a fascist government, we know a few things about right wing propaganda...
- carlosjobim 10mo agoAccusing anybody who doesn't love the government of "spreading propaganda" is not a sign of knowledge. It's a sign of an obsolete 20th century mindset and perspective on life. Next perhaps you're going to accuse me of "Staatsfeindlichkeit", which the German leadership was screaming in their denouncements, before the people tore down their walls. "Verunglimpfung des Staates" - "Insulting the State", this awful, awful crime, is something I'm going to continue doing however I fancy. Millions of people were killed for that right, so it's not something I'm ever giving up.
- pezezin 10mo agoNot loving the government is OK. Heck, hating the government might also be OK. Insisting that we European citizens hate the EU when it is not true, and then doubling down with accusations of censorship when the whole thread points out your mistake, is downright stupid. But hey, if that makes you happy as some kind of freedom fighter, go for it.
- pembrook 10mo agoIt is not. I know the media has pushed this ragebait to get engagement from you, but you can literally read the official policy document.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoI have read the document, it certainly implies that the EU is a problem and that the US should support 'patriotic' parties in pulling away from it. It's a short read (30 pages, large font) so it's well worth looking at.
- pembrook 10mo agoA majority of Europeans also think the EU has major issues. This does not constitute being anti-Europe.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoPlease read the document before making this determination. > A majority of Europeans also think the EU has major issues I don't disagree with you in principle here, but do you have a source for this?
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- Lapel2742 10mo ago> It was supposed to be something akin to United States of Europe No, it never was. > but instead in devolved into a bureaucracy No it hasn't: "There are two striking aspects of this rejection of EU bureaucracy. First, in comparison with other, comparable entities, such as the US federal bureaucracy, the EU’s administrative apparatus has a marginal size. Specifically, the EU, which is responsible for more than 440 million citizens, employs only around 60,000 people, while the US federal bureaucracy has more than two million employees that govern a territory with about 330 million inhabitants. Accordingly, the EU bureaucracy is comparatively small and far from being the “bureaucratic monster” which it is frequently portrayed as." https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2023/09/04/why-do-so-many-people-hate-eu-bureaucracy/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2023/09/04/why-do-so-many... > that regulates the shit out if everything, I'm thankful for that. That is why our food is way better and way healthier than the shit the US makes it's citizens eat. > is incredibly socialist and the EC thinks it is above everyone else. LOL. No it's not "socialist" and the European Commission is the executive branch of the European Union. If you really think the Commission behaves as if they are above everything else (they do not!), I pull an American president.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> That is why our food is way better and way healthier than the shit the US makes it's citizens eat. The US optimized for convenience, affordability, and variety. You can eat very healthily in the US, but it requires more intentional choices. In many (not all) EU countries, the default option is closer to healthy.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- Lapel2742 10mo ago> You can eat very healthily in the US, but it requires more intentional choices. It requires money too. If you are poor your choices are naturally limited and in the end you are dependent on government regulations to eat at least somewhat healthy.
- MangoToupe 10mo ago> want to annex a European territory Greenland is not in europe. It may be a danish colony but that doesn't make it "european territory" any more than french guiana is. EU territory? Sure. But europe is a penninsula on the western flank of eurasia. Edit: huh I had no idea how complicated the classification of eu territories is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_territories_of_members_of_the_European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_territories_of_members...
- ulfw 10mo agoAnd Hawaii is not in America. Certainly neither is Guam etc. What kind of argument are you even trying to make?
- drysine 10mo ago[flagged]
- cess11 10mo agoWhat a bizarre description of what the US did. Greenland has been inching towards independence since the seventies, because that's the common ambition of greenlandic peoples and it's slow because there are rather deep ties between Denmark and Greenland. These ties are to some extent very negative for the greenlanders, they're generally discriminated against and have been viciously mistreated at times, but a quick clean cut would also be quite painful for them. In the seventies Greenland joined the EU predecessor EEC with Denmark, quickly realised that europeans were emptying their fishing waters and in the early eighties left the union. It's the only entity to have done so. Then the independence process trudged on, they self-manage in many areas now, even more since a 2008 referendum where some 75% or so voted in favour of independence. Since 2009 there is a law that says that Greenland can become independent whenever they want, as long as it's approved by greenlander referendum and the danish parliament. To the extent they're a colony international law also clearly gives them the right to unilaterally declare independence. A majority of greenlanders are likely still in favour, but a majority also would prefer to postpone it if it would result in worse living conditions, since that's what polls usually conclude. Ignoring half a century of rather delicate politics and independence ambitions the US shat all over it and said that they wanted to buy it, and then several years later said that they might just annex instead. This is quite belligerent and nasty behaviour, which in my opinion should have caused european countries to start dumping US bonds and stop answering calls from the White House.
- Ray20 10mo ago[flagged]
- drysine 10mo ago>the EU has LITERALLY provided less aid to Ukraine than it has given to Russia The EU is buying resources from Russia, not providing aid to it.
- DaSHacka 10mo agoPotato, Potato. Whether giving money with no strings attached or some strings attached, guess where that money is going to go.
- drysine 10mo agoThey are not "giving" money. They are exchanging them for resources. Russia gets the money but loses resources which it could've sold to other countries instead.
- DaSHacka 10mo agoAh, you're totally right. Europe is getting the better end of the deal Russia is practically getting scammed, exchanging goods for profits they can redistribute to fund their war.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> Isn't it exactly the opposite, and it was the EU that attempted to overthrow democracy in the US (and failed)? What are you talking about? According to US intelligence agencies, bipartisan Senate reports, and federal prosecutions, Russia, China, and Iran have been singled out at running disinformation campaigns. The EU has never been accused by the US of trying to topple democracy in the US.
- stavros 10mo ago> Even Zelenskyy acknowledged that the US provides more aid than the EU. And this is despite the fact that Europe has twice the population and doesn't have a vast ocean between it and Russia. Why does the population matter at all? The US GDP is $30T and the EU GDP is $21T.