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Europe should be building domestic digital capacity regardless (and not just servers) but saying it needs to treat the US like China is a bit melodramatic given
by pembrook 10mo ago
Europe should be building domestic digital capacity regardless (and not just servers) but saying it needs to treat the US like China is a bit melodramatic given the economic and physical threat to Europe is 10X greater in the east.
The US is not anti-Europe. The US has just begun to start evaluating its relationship with Europe rationally and wants it to grow up beyond the post-WW2 training wheels.
The overreaction to this kind of gives vibes of slamming the door and screaming “you don’t love me!” because dad won’t buy a new toy.
- saubeidl 10mo ago[flagged]
- pembrook 10mo ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 10mo agoTheir VP and one of their government-linked oligarchs is meeting with literal Neonazis in Germany that are trying to topple the constitutional order: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/14/jd-vance-afd-meeting-019130 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/14/jd-vance-afd-meetin... To say they're not anti-Europe is either hopelessly naive or cynically ideologically aligned with their goals.
- mlrtime 10mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany AFG are Neonazis?
- saubeidl 10mo agoIndeed. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/turmoil-in-germany-over-neo-nazi-mass-deportation-meeting-explained https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/turmoil-in-ger... https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/dangerous-liaisons-the-true-proximity-of-germany-s-afd-to-neo-nazis-a-e69c51d3-4b3c-49d2-8d54-d7b0a19c3f9a https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/dangerous-liais...
- drysine 10mo ago[flagged]
- jrochkind1 10mo agoFrom the wikipedia article you just linked to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#Neo-Nazi_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#Neo-Na... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#German_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#German...
- Amezarak 10mo agoIf the #2 or #1 most popular political party in Germany are "literal Neonazis", I think Germany and likely Europe as a whole has a much bigger problem than whatever America is doing.
- saubeidl 10mo agoThose two are not unrelated. It's a result of deliberate media manipulation and hybrid warfare by the US and Russia.
- Amezarak 10mo agoI see. Well, foreign intervention and propaganda in democracies is nothing new. It is well documented all the way back to the time of ancient Greece. So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them! You can either accept that it's your duty to convince your citizens you are right to win their votes, or you can insist that everyone else is wrong and democracy means they should shut up and vote only the "right" way in accordance with establishment approved opinions and go about what Europe has been doing, which is to continue to pursue unpopular policies and blame Russiia/nazis/America/the Internet/free speech for their problems. European center and left parties could suck all the oxygen out of the room and starve the far-right overnight if they simply introduced and enforced major immigration restrictions - but it's precisely this which is not a Establishment Approved Idea and deemed Unthinkable Hate. Democracy, as long as your opinions are allowed.
- saubeidl 10mo ago> So your contention is that in Germany and perhaps other countries (France?) some of the most popular political parties are popular only because their partisans are uneducated dupes or worse, in thrall to foreign powers. Perhaps you would be better off ideologically not supporting democracy - it sounds like it is not for you. Of course democracy has its problems - and people voting for dumb ideas is one of them! I don't! I think authoritarian leftism is the way to go as most people are too stupid for their own good tbh.
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- microtonal 10mo agogeberation there will be no more real germans I would be very surprised if this type of speech is allowed/tolerated on HN.
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 10mo agoIt's not tolerated because it's not the truth, even if your feelings are hurt by that.
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 10mo ago[flagged]
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 10mo ago[flagged]
- 10mo ago
- LadyCailin 10mo agoProject 2025 was just political rage bait and rumors too, until it wasn’t.
- MangoToupe 10mo agoIt can be both. The document is massive, very contradictory and incoherent, and most of the people hysterical over it haven't even read it. Look I'm no fan of the trump administration but people should have concrete concerns, not waving around "project 2025" like some symbol of the country's imminent collapse. Unfortunately, our country is nowhere near collapse and this administration is not going to be the thing to bring it down. Though they're trying their hardest, i will admit.
- mannykannot 10mo agoTalk of how it might be interpreted is rather beside the point when the administration appears to be implementing a particular interpretation and SCOTUS appears to be fine with that, whether or not it is a selective one. Those are the concrete concerns of which you speak. It is helpful to have the document publicly available, but only if enough people heed its implicit warning.
- MangoToupe 10mo agoI would argue the concrete concerns we should have is the fact that we seem to be committing economic suicide, which will have decades of economic and sociopolitical fallout. If you think people have an appetite for fascism today, wait until you see what decades of deflating economies will do.
- systemBuilder 10mo agoThis article is about FAFO for MAGA loyalists in the USA. Well, MAGA has FA'd with US-European relations. Now they get to FO where it takes us (i.e. over the waterfall, isolating the USA from everything good in the world.)
- DaSHacka 10mo agoI doubt there's ever going to be an FO. What does Europe have of any value? What was the last thing of relevance they've done? Help with WWII?
- jeltz 10mo agoWhat was the last thing the US did of any relevance? Help with WWII. Just as stupid claim.
- DaSHacka 10mo agoI mean, we still borderline run the world, so there's that. In this very OP it's major news that Europe is trying to move off of US technology, because we're just so dominant.
- blibble 10mo agoonly for the remaining part of the decade, if the US is lucky trump pissing away a century of hard-won soft power handed the century to China
- DaSHacka 10mo ago> trump pissing away a century of hard-won soft power handed the century to China Right, it's all Trump's fault, not the fault of the boomers that sold our country's manufacturing base out to China in the 60's onward which gave them their start, and that we've never recovered from. But no, I'm sure it's the orange man who still hasn't done 1/3rd of the things we voted him in to do, that is the problem. Average deportation rates are still below Obama's terms, "Mr. President, there's too much winning!!". What a joke, I wish he did half the things you all claim he does, we'd be much better off.
- ExoticPearTree 10mo ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 10mo agoWhat socialism? What are you talking about? The EU parliament has a conservative majority [0], as does the Council. [1] It's a right-wing organization. I wish there was socialism, mate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_European_Parliament#Current_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_European_Parliament#Curr... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Governments_represented_in_the_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#...
- ExoticPearTree 10mo agoSo this is why they give out subsidies left and right? Is this why they are working on increasing taxes? Right now in politics you can claim to be whatever you want and your policy stance to be opposite: I am on the right but I vote left wing measures.
- saubeidl 10mo agoAll of those are right wing policies, designed to support an inherently broken system of capitalism. Left wing would be the state owning the means of production.
- 8note 10mo agoin what was is subsidies socialism? what ownership control does the state have over the means of production?
- pembrook 10mo agoEvery year the percentage of European GDP driven by government spending rises by roughly 1%. We just hit over 50% on average in the Eurozone. So they have over 50% control, and this will only rise as the population further ages, eating all productive activity in the economy. It doesn't matter who 'owns' the means of production if the government is post-facto seizing a controlling stake in all economic activity via taxation and deficit spending (phantom taxation via inflation). Europe is quite literally eating its private sector like saturn devouring his son.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> The US literally wrote a national security strategy describing that it wants to dismantle the EU. The official 2025 NSS document does not explicitly state a US goal to dismantle the European Union. The strategy is highly critical of the EU's direction and Europe's trajectory in ways that critics could say could indirectly undermine EU cohesion, but there's no formal language saying the US wants to dismantle the EU. Critics interpret the tone and strategic shift as potentially indirectly weakening EU cohesion if taken as encouragement to nationalist or Eurosceptic political forces.
- saubeidl 10mo agoHeh there's two versions, the one with the spicier additions has not been officially published. https://archive.ph/eT1FY https://archive.ph/eT1FY
- Lapel2742 10mo ago[flagged]
- pembrook 10mo agoThey did not, this is all political ragebait journalism and memes.
- alphager 10mo agoDisbanding the EU is an official goal of the new US security strategy.
- mlrtime 10mo agoDivide and conquer is working well it seems. There is no conspiracy, sorry.
- carlosjobim 10mo agoThe EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.
- andsoitis 10mo ago> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Your framing is off, I'm afraid. Across Europe, most people see the EU as more good than bad, especially compared to the alternative of countries acting alone. At the same time, support is often cautious rather than enthusiastic.
- nephihaha 10mo agoVoter turn out is extremely low in certain central and eastern Europe for EU elections. I think it was down to under 20% in some places a few years ago. I had hoped that the UK would vote to remain and Europe would move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, but it's got worse especially since 2020. The EU is its own worst enemy.
- Derbasti 10mo agoThe difference is, Europeans used to trust their US partners, and built a lot of infrastructure on US services. This trust has been betrayed, so things now need to change. It never existed to begin with with China, so no change is necessary. That's not "melodramatic".
- Workaccount2 10mo agoThere never was a relationship of mutual trust, it was always a relationship of Europe being under the wing of the US as a buffer against the USSR. The US now wants to push Europe out of the nest, but most Europeans have only ever known life "living in their parents house". Building an independent Europe is not compatible with the current European ethos of work/life/life/life balance, and will likely result in Europe either coming back to the US, falling into economic chaos, or moving into daddy Xi's house. They are a socialist country after all...
- lnxg33k1 10mo agoHow much do you guys suffer about this work life balance, I can't wrap my head around the level of brainwash you guys have been through to use concepts as socialised wealth and wellness as a bad thing these evil europeans wanting to have a break from work! how dare them!
- disgruntledphd2 10mo agoAnd productivity per head is much higher in many more socialist economies. Which makes sense as it's basically GDP/hour.
- lnxg33k1 10mo agoare you sure you're working? There is no one from europe in the top net worth /s
- nothrabannosir 10mo ago>> The difference is, Europeans used to trust their US partners > There never was a relationship of mutual trust Technically, you're not disagreeing with GP. :) Or :( I guess.
- jamesblonde 10mo agoThey control Europe's digital infrastructure and are able to increase rent to usurous levels (tarrifs!) because Europe is dependent on their digital services. Without digital sovereignty, Europe has no sovereignty and will quickly become a modern colony from which wealth will be extracted.
- pembrook 10mo agoThe reason the US is able to raise rents (tariffs) has nothing to do with Europe buying US digital services. The tariffs are on European exports. The problem is Europe has a weak domestic consumer market and is dependent on selling stuff to the US, not buying from them.
- jamesblonde 10mo ago[flagged]
- andsoitis 10mo ago> Nonsense. Unilaterial tarrifs are not how trade agreements work. This is pure extractive rent. What do you mean by "unilateral tariffs"? > The reason the US is not able to extract the same rents from China is that they have digital sovereignty and the US cannot just pull the cloud plug from them. The US has higher tariffs against Chinese imports than European imports.
- microtonal 10mo agoThe EU has a services deficit compared to the US, the US has a goods deficit compared to Europe. Together, they are almost in balance, the difference is just 3% of total trade [1]. Put differently, the US and the EU need each other. This is why Trump is using footguns. [1] https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-country-and-region/countries-and-regions/united-states_en https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
- kyboren 10mo agoThe problem is really that Europe has a few dozen weak consumer markets. If there really was a proper single market, I suspect the EU would be much more competitive in digital services. Unfortunately despite their best efforts this isn't something Eurocrats can simply will into existence. The most important prerequisite is a common language, and there is zero political will to do the only sensible thing and establish English as the official common language of the EU.
- victorbjorklund 10mo agoIt is US themselves that have decleared they are a hostile enemy to Europe now. China had made zero claims to annex parts of Europe. USA makes claims to annex parts of Denmark. China officially does not say their goal is to overthrow European democracies but US says their goal is to change the democratic govts of Europe.
- hardlianotion 10mo agoMight have something to do with trying to split off various EU countries and threatening to annex Greenland. Or maybe that's part of the growing-up process.