7 ms·

Agreed. A situation similar to this happened to me with Steam over a payment issue with their service. They banned me even though I had thousands of dollars of

by sigseg1v 10mo ago

Agreed. A situation similar to this happened to me with Steam over a payment issue with their service. They banned me even though I had thousands of dollars of games and an account since Sept 2003. I had to go to my bank and escalate multiple times to get letters providing the info steam wanted about my account and credit card to prove it was legitimate. Eventually after contacting them enough times they said they would do a "one time good faith" gesture by unbanning me but warned if it ever happens again they cannot help and that my account will be flagged with this. In the end I didn't do anything wrong and the bank didn't do anything wrong, it was all on steam. It was over $10 by the way.

vablings 10mo ago
Sadly, the real issue here is with the banks and the payment processors. It's very likely that they have metrics for larger marketplaces about being below a threshold for fraud. Online game stores like steam live, breathe and die by payment processing. This was the reason why free trade was removed from RuneScape back in the day and it wasn't even a Jagex issue. People would go to 3rd party gold selling websites and then pay for gold with stolen credit cards. They could easily keep the money because the trade cannot be reversed without a moderator and what they were doing was against the rules so everyone would just get banned. The payment processors saw a bunch of fraud related to a game called RuneScape and told Jagex if they dont fix this then they will be blacklisted.
- IshKebab 10mo ago
  > Sadly, the real issue here is with the banks and the payment processors I disagree. The issue is these huge platforms can arbitrarily ban people and consumers have no recourse. This sort of thing wasn't really possible before the internet age. We need new laws to deal with it. Banks are nothing to do with this. You could have your Steam/Google/Apple/etc. account summarily executed for any reason; it doesn't have to be money-related.
  - vablings 10mo ago
    > This sort of thing wasn't really possible before the internet age. We need new laws to deal with it. Yes, it was and it always has been[1] >I disagree. The issue is these huge platforms can arbitrarily ban people and consumers have no recourse This is par for course with every single EULA ever. I will say in the case of Steam it's hard pressed to find your account completely disabled and unable to play the games you rightfully purchased. I think the worst-case scenario is that you will be banned from engaging with the steam online community which restricts your ability to play with other users on steam 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
    - IshKebab 10mo ago
      Redlining is not really the same as what we're talking about (but should also be illegal).
      - vablings 10mo ago
        Redlining is the example that I am giving to show this has long been the behavior of businesses and unless its racist it's not illegal. Also read your EULAs
- lurk2 10mo ago
  > This was the reason why free trade was removed from RuneScape back in the day and it wasn't even a Jagex issue. People would go to 3rd party gold selling websites and then pay for gold with stolen credit cards. They could easily keep the money because the trade cannot be reversed without a moderator and what they were doing was against the rules so everyone would just get banned. Gold farmers were paying for bot memberships using stolen credit cards, which Jagex had to refund along with a chargeback fee. The blackmail scenario you’re describing wouldn’t make any sense since all of these gold farmers used mule accounts to launder their gold before making the trades. The changes to the trade system were intended to interfere with this laundering so that farming would no longer be profitable.
  - vablings 10mo ago
    It wasn't a blackmail scenario specifically Jagex got punished either way because the fraud was enabled by their platform. I don't have the time to check but I believe this was mentioned by the one of the Gower brothers in the runescape documentary. My broader point is that even if they cracked down on fraud which was absolutely not the fault of Jagex because of the poor security options at the time from Credit Card companies, they still had the issue of people buying gold from RunescapeGoldSeller.com and chargebacks
    - lurk2 10mo ago
      > in the runescape documentary The RuneScape Documentary - 15 Years of Adventure https://youtu.be/7RNK0YBdwko?si=sei69KmyL4hb_hj-&t=2944 https://youtu.be/7RNK0YBdwko?si=sei69KmyL4hb_hj-&t=2944 Discussion begins at 49:04
ndriscoll 10mo ago
They've made it clear that you don't own your cloud library, so the only reasonable answer is to never pay for something with DRM you cannot remove (including things that require an online account for functionality you consider important), and treat services like Steam as a temporary convenience to download known good files that you then fix to remove any DRM. If you only treat these services as a download tool, their ban loses all teeth.
- dylan604 10mo ago
  I'm not an avid gamer, so maybe this is a naive question, but how do you know these things before you buy the game?
  - ghjv 10mo ago
    Steam's lawyers would say that one should know by reading the terms of service for the storefront and the purchase. But in the real world, how often does that happen?
  - dfxm12 10mo ago
    This is 90% of the reason I don't bother buying modern computer games. For me, I assume games require phoning home and use some kind of DRM unless it is otherwise advertised.
  - xp84 10mo ago
    Assume everything is encrapified with “strong” DRM unless credibly demonstrated otherwise.
    - lozf 10mo ago
      "encrapsulated"
  - ndriscoll 10mo ago
    You could buy from a provider that advertises non-use of DRM like GOG, or on Steam, it lists third party DRM, so you can know whether you have the tools to remove it (and whether you have the tools to remove Steam's DRM, or whether the game appears on a web list of games that don't use any DRM). You could also refund it if you can't verify you're able to successfully back it up and run the backup on a computer or user session without Steam installed. For multiplayer, if it's possible, you can find people discussing it on the web (maybe in pirate communities). Otherwise, just don't buy it. Some recent stats indicated most gamers buy at most two games per year, so it's not a ton of work to ensure they have a working archive.
ferguess_k 10mo ago
Buy from GoG instead. It's better. At least you can download the install files and don't need to install any 3rd party software to login to play them. I have 200+ games on Steam but I have ceased purchase on Steam.
kmfrk 10mo ago
There's also grey areas with Steam like when you buy a Steam key for a game outside of Steam through places like GreenManGaming and get your reviews discounted or otherwise flagged arbitrarily based on an opaque authenticity heuristic. https://www.greenmangaming.com https://www.greenmangaming.com
- SXX 10mo ago
  Valve get no fees from non-Steam key sales and developers can really request any reasonable amount of keys so tens and hundreds of thousands. It make a lot of sense to discount all these reviews to avoid abuse. A lot of developers would abuse reviews hard otherwise.
  - ragazzina 10mo ago
    Why are hundreds of thousands keys a reasonable amount for a developer? I am not in the video game business so I fail to see the use case.
    - llbbdd 10mo ago
      Developers can sell those keys outside of Steam and they are redeemable for a copy of the game on your Steam library.
    - the_pwner224 10mo ago
      Yeah, you need a much smaller number for e.g. giving access to journalists/media pre-release. But the key mechanism is also used for any legitimate sales or giveaways that happen outside the Steam platform. If you buy a Humble Bundle, you get a set of Steam keys for the games in the bundle. If Intel/AMD/Nvidia are doing a promotion for a free game with a purchase of their product, they give you Steam keys. Etc.
    - SXX 10mo ago
      How keys are used explained in other answers already. Number of keys you can request would obviously depend on how successful is your hame on Steam. E.g I doubt Valve would generate 100,000 keys for a game with zero sales, but likely under 10,000 is possible. Other than selling keys they can also be used for marketing. If you for instance have a game with multiplayer, lots of DLCs or IAP then giving away keys for base game make a lot of sense: even if only 1% of people who grab the key gonna play it they can still eventually buy other copy for a friend, etc.
pjmlp 10mo ago
Which goes to show, being the nice Linux guys doesn't change they are a corporation like all others, and will behave exactly the same.
- the_pwner224 10mo ago
  Afaik if your account is banned Valve still lets you log in to Steam and access your existing library of purchased games. You just lose access to all the other platform features. Obviously that's their policy that they can change anytime... but in this case, it's not inconsistent to their "nice Linux guys" persona.

vablings 10mo ago

Sadly, the real issue here is with the banks and the payment processors. It's very likely that they have metrics for larger marketplaces about being below a threshold for fraud. Online game stores like steam live, breathe and die by payment processing. This was the reason why free trade was removed from RuneScape back in the day and it wasn't even a Jagex issue. People would go to 3rd party gold selling websites and then pay for gold with stolen credit cards. They could easily keep the money because the trade cannot be reversed without a moderator and what they were doing was against the rules so everyone would just get banned. The payment processors saw a bunch of fraud related to a game called RuneScape and told Jagex if they dont fix this then they will be blacklisted.

IshKebab 10mo ago
> Sadly, the real issue here is with the banks and the payment processors I disagree. The issue is these huge platforms can arbitrarily ban people and consumers have no recourse. This sort of thing wasn't really possible before the internet age. We need new laws to deal with it. Banks are nothing to do with this. You could have your Steam/Google/Apple/etc. account summarily executed for any reason; it doesn't have to be money-related.
- vablings 10mo ago
  > This sort of thing wasn't really possible before the internet age. We need new laws to deal with it. Yes, it was and it always has been[1] >I disagree. The issue is these huge platforms can arbitrarily ban people and consumers have no recourse This is par for course with every single EULA ever. I will say in the case of Steam it's hard pressed to find your account completely disabled and unable to play the games you rightfully purchased. I think the worst-case scenario is that you will be banned from engaging with the steam online community which restricts your ability to play with other users on steam 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
  - IshKebab 10mo ago
    Redlining is not really the same as what we're talking about (but should also be illegal).
    - vablings 10mo ago
      Redlining is the example that I am giving to show this has long been the behavior of businesses and unless its racist it's not illegal. Also read your EULAs
lurk2 10mo ago
> This was the reason why free trade was removed from RuneScape back in the day and it wasn't even a Jagex issue. People would go to 3rd party gold selling websites and then pay for gold with stolen credit cards. They could easily keep the money because the trade cannot be reversed without a moderator and what they were doing was against the rules so everyone would just get banned. Gold farmers were paying for bot memberships using stolen credit cards, which Jagex had to refund along with a chargeback fee. The blackmail scenario you’re describing wouldn’t make any sense since all of these gold farmers used mule accounts to launder their gold before making the trades. The changes to the trade system were intended to interfere with this laundering so that farming would no longer be profitable.
- vablings 10mo ago
  It wasn't a blackmail scenario specifically Jagex got punished either way because the fraud was enabled by their platform. I don't have the time to check but I believe this was mentioned by the one of the Gower brothers in the runescape documentary. My broader point is that even if they cracked down on fraud which was absolutely not the fault of Jagex because of the poor security options at the time from Credit Card companies, they still had the issue of people buying gold from RunescapeGoldSeller.com and chargebacks
  - lurk2 10mo ago
    > in the runescape documentary The RuneScape Documentary - 15 Years of Adventure https://youtu.be/7RNK0YBdwko?si=sei69KmyL4hb_hj-&t=2944 https://youtu.be/7RNK0YBdwko?si=sei69KmyL4hb_hj-&t=2944 Discussion begins at 49:04

ndriscoll 10mo ago

They've made it clear that you don't own your cloud library, so the only reasonable answer is to never pay for something with DRM you cannot remove (including things that require an online account for functionality you consider important), and treat services like Steam as a temporary convenience to download known good files that you then fix to remove any DRM. If you only treat these services as a download tool, their ban loses all teeth.

dylan604 10mo ago
I'm not an avid gamer, so maybe this is a naive question, but how do you know these things before you buy the game?
- ghjv 10mo ago
  Steam's lawyers would say that one should know by reading the terms of service for the storefront and the purchase. But in the real world, how often does that happen?
- dfxm12 10mo ago
  This is 90% of the reason I don't bother buying modern computer games. For me, I assume games require phoning home and use some kind of DRM unless it is otherwise advertised.
- xp84 10mo ago
  Assume everything is encrapified with “strong” DRM unless credibly demonstrated otherwise.
  - lozf 10mo ago
    "encrapsulated"
- ndriscoll 10mo ago
  You could buy from a provider that advertises non-use of DRM like GOG, or on Steam, it lists third party DRM, so you can know whether you have the tools to remove it (and whether you have the tools to remove Steam's DRM, or whether the game appears on a web list of games that don't use any DRM). You could also refund it if you can't verify you're able to successfully back it up and run the backup on a computer or user session without Steam installed. For multiplayer, if it's possible, you can find people discussing it on the web (maybe in pirate communities). Otherwise, just don't buy it. Some recent stats indicated most gamers buy at most two games per year, so it's not a ton of work to ensure they have a working archive.

ferguess_k 10mo ago

Buy from GoG instead. It's better. At least you can download the install files and don't need to install any 3rd party software to login to play them. I have 200+ games on Steam but I have ceased purchase on Steam.

kmfrk 10mo ago

There's also grey areas with Steam like when you buy a Steam key for a game outside of Steam through places like GreenManGaming and get your reviews discounted or otherwise flagged arbitrarily based on an opaque authenticity heuristic. https://www.greenmangaming.com https://www.greenmangaming.com

SXX 10mo ago
Valve get no fees from non-Steam key sales and developers can really request any reasonable amount of keys so tens and hundreds of thousands. It make a lot of sense to discount all these reviews to avoid abuse. A lot of developers would abuse reviews hard otherwise.
- ragazzina 10mo ago
  Why are hundreds of thousands keys a reasonable amount for a developer? I am not in the video game business so I fail to see the use case.
  - llbbdd 10mo ago
    Developers can sell those keys outside of Steam and they are redeemable for a copy of the game on your Steam library.
  - the_pwner224 10mo ago
    Yeah, you need a much smaller number for e.g. giving access to journalists/media pre-release. But the key mechanism is also used for any legitimate sales or giveaways that happen outside the Steam platform. If you buy a Humble Bundle, you get a set of Steam keys for the games in the bundle. If Intel/AMD/Nvidia are doing a promotion for a free game with a purchase of their product, they give you Steam keys. Etc.
  - SXX 10mo ago
    How keys are used explained in other answers already. Number of keys you can request would obviously depend on how successful is your hame on Steam. E.g I doubt Valve would generate 100,000 keys for a game with zero sales, but likely under 10,000 is possible. Other than selling keys they can also be used for marketing. If you for instance have a game with multiplayer, lots of DLCs or IAP then giving away keys for base game make a lot of sense: even if only 1% of people who grab the key gonna play it they can still eventually buy other copy for a friend, etc.

pjmlp 10mo ago

Which goes to show, being the nice Linux guys doesn't change they are a corporation like all others, and will behave exactly the same.

the_pwner224 10mo ago
Afaik if your account is banned Valve still lets you log in to Steam and access your existing library of purchased games. You just lose access to all the other platform features. Obviously that's their policy that they can change anytime... but in this case, it's not inconsistent to their "nice Linux guys" persona.