8 ms·

I expected the "T word" to come out in the article, however this fails to address any of the practical reasons it isn't a good replacement for the value-enginee

by exabrial 10mo ago

I expected the "T word" to come out in the article, however this fails to address any of the practical reasons it isn't a good replacement for the value-engineered F-150: * The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive * They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable. * Parts availability is scarce, contrasted with a regular F-150 (even junkyards are full of spare parts, that aren't software constrained) * They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla * They're bloated with parts that don't need to exist (excessive exterior accent lighting, badges, over-complicated blinkers) Oddly enough, single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications).

bink 10mo ago
> The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive They definitely aimed for the luxury market, like Rivian. Who knows how successful they would've been if they aimed for mid-range like Scout. That's the market they claimed to be entering when they started taking reservations. They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to. > They're difficult to repair How so? They are far simpler to maintain than a normal F-150. They're new so they do have parts issues for the electronic components, I'm sure, but I think that's a fair trade-off. In any case, I don't think offering a hybrid version makes the vehicles easier to maintain or repair. If anything it's the opposite. > Parts availability is scarce, contrasted with a regular F-150 (even junkyards are full of spare parts, that aren't software constrained) I thought one of the advantages of the F-150 was that most parts were shared with the standard F-150? The battery and motors, maybe not.
- tracker1 10mo ago
  Significant portions of the body and interior were not shared with general F-150 models... At least those parts most likely to be damaged in minor accidents... imagine having your work truck in the shop for 2-3 months for want of a corner light fixture.
  - bink 10mo ago
    Yeah, that's definitely a no-go. I think you'd see that with any new model, however. I once had a Ducati in the shop for 4-5 months just waiting on a wheel because it was a new model.
  - rootusrootus 10mo ago
    The interior of the pro model is identical to an ICE F150. The only part which breaks with any regularity is shared with ICE F150s, in fact. The only interior difference I can think of on any trim of Lightning is the big screen on higher models. But it's the same underlying SYNC system as every other F150, no magic there. It has breakable expensive headlights and taillights, that is for sure. But so do ICE F150s...
    - philipallstar 10mo ago
      > It has breakable expensive headlights and taillights, that is for sure. But so do ICE F150s... The point is they're harder to get because they're rarer.
  - turtlebits 10mo ago
    Parts availability is not a problem for established manufacturers, especially mass market vehicles.
    - tracker1 10mo ago
      I guess the F-150 Lightning and Electric Mustang weren't from an established mfg... because they regularly were waiting months on parts.
- shmoe 10mo ago
  They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to. They did offer a fleet version.. the "Pro".
  - sh34r 10mo ago
    I mean, what do we expect from this brainless company that promised a $20k Maverick and let the stealerships mark it up to over $40k?
    - ecshafer 10mo ago
      Ford announced the Maverick, it got so much excitement that it sold out and dealerships sold for over MSRP. So in their infinite wisdom they... didn't make more mid range trucks. Ill never understand these guys.
      - kevin_thibedeau 10mo ago
        The idea is that you make more profit selling 50,000 cheap trucks and 50,000 expensive trucks than just 100,000 cheap trucks. When you can fool a largely innumerate populace into 84-month loans with "cheap" monthly payments, overpriced vehicles are the way to go.
        aydyn 10mo ago
        Competition? Its not like ford is the only seller out there.
        ethbr1 10mo ago
        All US automakers are doing the same thing. There's gentle up-marketing collusion. The issue at root is that auto demand is a finite, population-based amount. Automakers are all pretty good at margin and manufacturing cost control. So that leaves the only independent variable that can influence revenue and profits as {average sold vehicle price}. New entrants face a scale issue: it's difficult to compete with the larger manufacturers' production costs with orders of magnitude less sales volume. Which is why you historically only saw state-sponsored new manufacturers break into the market (read: Japan, Korea, China). Electrification turned some of this on its head, but not completely. GM, Ford, et al. can still build just enough mid-market electrics to spoil others volumes, without attempting to build something really good and cannibalizing their own luxury vehicles.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 10mo ago
> single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications). Readers might enjoy this, though I can't find the conclusions section at a glance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKf8smvGsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKf8smvGsA "The Truth about Electric Towing" - The video author says that weight doesn't make much difference, but aerodynamics does. Towing a big flat piece of plywood that weighs 50 pounds but catches the wind is much worse for your range (or MPG) than towing an entire second truck, if the towed truck is aerodynamic.
- rascul 10mo ago
  He's only comparing highway driving. As he notes, city driving (or really anything with a lot of accelerating) will see the impact of weight on fuel consumption. Seems like regen brakes can help mitigate that for electric vehicles. Side note, if he set the parking brake when getting loaded then the second tailgate denting might not have happened. It'll also help save the transmission.
- rootusrootus 10mo ago
  Yes, Ford has done plenty of tests as have regular folks, loading the bed to the weight limit of the truck doesn't have much impact at all on range. It's 99% about the aero.
tracker1 10mo ago
I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered as much as months, where having a "work truck" down for months is an intolerable position. The cost is also kind of crazy between inflated factory and dealer pricing as much as $20k over sticker price. Yeah, there was some early demand, but over-charging really cooled that and the demand overall. I'm with you on some of the interior features, they're cool, but the overall inflated price is just too much. On the flip side, the Chevy "Work Truck" is kinda too far the other direction imo. Similar on the more complex exterior, though I actually like it, it's not practical for its' prescibed purpose. If Ford could create a stripped down EV equivalent to Chevy's "Work Truck" at even 50% higher cost, I think it would do very well. They're very good for in-city use in terms of range on a charge, it's definitely good enough for most general tradecraft use, but the bloat and pricing really drag it down. Much like most cars in general these days. Pretty much the only interesting new car I've seen this year was the Hundai Palasade, which IMO was just a good value for what it is. Kind of disappointing to see Nissan drop the Titan line. While I'd prefer to buy American brands, the fact that is that I don't think they deliver on overall value or reliability as well as competing brands. And it gets muddied further with foreign brands with US assembly and American brands now owned or otherwise operated or significantly built outside the US.
- omnimus 10mo ago
  I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.
  - formerly_proven 10mo ago
    Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
nospice 10mo ago
> The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive So are RAM trucks and I don't think they're hurting for customers. I think there are two fundamental issues. One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US - i.e., if you're progressive, you're supposed to hate them and see them as the symbol of the gun-totting macho redneck culture, and if you're conservative, you're supposed to love them because they're gas-guzzling freedom machines that "own the libs". An electric pickup straddles these political choices in a hard-to-market way. The other problem is that electric pickups don't really solve any pressing problem for the buyer. They're more expensive up front, more expensive to keep running (unless you also invest a lot of $$$ into solar), and harder to repair, but they don't boast better specs... well, except for acceleration, which isn't a huge selling point for trucks.
- roadside_picnic 10mo ago
  > One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US Based on my personal experience traveling, there's a more practical reason for the political divide. I spend a good portion of my life in rural parts of the US these days, where most of the residents are pretty conservative. But these are also parts of the country where I get nervous when I'm on 1/4 tank of gas. If you're routinely out in places where the nearest gas station might be > 50 miles away, you also see a dip in e-vehicles for very practical reasons. When I'm at home in a city, it makes perfect sense to own an e-vehicle: typically I'm only driving a few miles a day, and the car spends most of it's time at my house or in a parking garage. When I'm out on business, and driving across hundreds of miles of barely inhabited land, I cannot imagine the stress of having an electric truck. It's not just about being 50 miles from a gas station, it's about the time it takes to charge on top of that. In rural parts of the country, especially when you're out working, you can easily be putting on mileage combined with being far enough away from a charger that it just doesn't make sense to have an e-vehicle.
  - ghaff 10mo ago
    I do know someone who bought a Tesla after debating it for a long time. And it was only after getting comfortable with the range for a mostly weekly drive into the country.
tshaddox 10mo ago
Isn't the only EV F-150 the Lightning? The Lightning has always been the sports model, so I can't imagine it ever made sense economically as a work truck.
- driverdan 10mo ago
  They reused the name much like they used the Mustang name for their electric SUV. Past Lightnings were single trim level performance trucks. The current Lightning mirrors the regular F150 trim levels but with an electric drivetrain.
  - rootusrootus 10mo ago
    It's a little more complicated. The Lightning has always been about performance, and that includes the EV. It'll demolish every other F150 (and most other regular cars for that matter) that doesn't say "Raptor R" on the side.
JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable Is this due to the parts problem?
- Teever 10mo ago
  Honestly sounds more like a regulation problem to me. So many companies will not prioritize serviceability unless mandated by law.
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > companies will not prioritize serviceability unless mandated by law Ford is “expected to take about $19.5 billion in charges, mainly tied to its electric-vehicle business” [1]. If serviceability was the problem, that sounds like a solid incentive to get it right. [1] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ford-takes-19-5-billion-charge-to-write-down-ev-investments-333a9bc4?mod=mhp https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ford-takes-19-5-billion-c...
    - Teever 10mo ago
      I'm not sure quite sure how your comment relates to mine. The way I see it is if there was sufficient enforcement of regulations around spare parts and serviceability then there's no way Ford could have stood up a factory that spat out a bunch of electric trucks without also producing a bunch of spare parts so the unreasonable delay to end users trying to repair their vehicles didn't occur. I don't have to worry about getting a car battery or sparkplug because these things are standardized and mass produced. That's due to regulation. The regulations just don't go far enough and the enforcement of them is obviously lax in 21st entury America
- rootusrootus 10mo ago
  It's due to ignorance. The Lightning is an F150 with a battery pack and motors instead of an engine and gas tank. It shares a -lot- with the 'regular' F150. It's just about the least complicated EV you can buy, which makes it extra funny to hear someone compare it to an iPhone. Sit inside and you can't tell the difference except for how much quieter and silly fast it is.
stonogo 10mo ago
I feel like many of these comparisons are more applicable to an F-150 of twenty years ago. Modern F-150s start at forty grand, are so hard to repair that the CEO of Ford whines about not having enough mechanics willing to get a PhD in Ford Repair, are absolutely software-constrained to the extent they're legally allowed, and have almost as many cockpit gizmos. The primary difference is the flashy bloat, but the majority of F-150s are sold at trim levels that include such things. Even the lowest-trim fleet F-150 these days is basically a luxury minivan with a bed compared to the models of yesteryear. My guess is that grid operators are offering more money than carbuyers, with the wild popularity of solar and wind.
- chasd00 10mo ago
  Yeah the F150 is a strange vehicle. It has a proven reputation as a blue collar workhorse. However, a fully loaded Raptor trim is a 6 figure price tag easy.
  - stonogo 10mo ago
    And somewhat more relevant, the Transit product line is doing a brisk business in the fleet market. Unless you specifically need to tow, a lot of trades are better served with a van these days.
  - NetMageSCW 10mo ago
    The price of a Raptor is hardly relevant to anyone looking for a work truck - do you think the Civic Type R price is relevant to most buyers of Civics? Or the Corvette ZR1X relevant to most Corvette buyers?
    - chasd00 10mo ago
      The point i wanted to make was that "Ford F150" means many and very different things, more so than your average vehicle. Even a Civic or Corvette.
nebula8804 10mo ago
I guess we will find out if many of these things actually matter with the Slate truck. It is in many ways the antithesis of this electric F-150. If that vehicle fails then there are no more excuses, a significant chunk of Americans just don't like electric vehicles and are destined to be laggards.
- baby_souffle 10mo ago
  I might be biased because I hang out in the slate subreddit and have been pretty attentive to The product as a whole since they announced it this spring but I think they're on to something assuming they can figure out how to build out the service and parts network. The vehicle itself may be a runaway sales success but if there's only or two locations in each major state where you can get it serviced, that runaway success will be extremely short-lived. In theory the simplicity means that it shouldn't be difficult to partner with any independent shop... No complicated or proprietary software theoretically means that any shop with tools and a lift can do the work. Time will tell, though. I remain optimistic and eagerly await delivery of my truck.
  - api 10mo ago
    They seem like Framework for cars. Am also following closely.
  - nebula8804 10mo ago
    Have they even given anyone a test drive or shown anything other than that single press car at all their events? Im starting to get worried that as we approach release expectations may fall flat. I am tired of all the youtuber just sitting in the truck and repeating the same press release.
    - baby_souffle 10mo ago
      As far as I know they are hoping to do this in early 2026. So far the only vehicles they have shown off have been validation prototypes.
  - 10mo ago
khannn 10mo ago
> * The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive > * They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable. Add in the crap tow range and it looks like Ford upmarket, as it's known to do, and failed. Just reading these points makes me think that it was designed to fail.
kryogen1c 10mo ago
This is pretty much dead on. I live in a rural part of the US and there are tons of old, worked-on trucks. The idea that there might be an all-electric f150 hanging out in 40 years is, frankly, laughable. I know a lot of city kids think trucks are some obnoxious luxury good, but they're basically a functional requirement in most of the (very large) country.
- empthought 10mo ago
  Less than 20% of Americans live in most of the (very large) country. The rest live in cities and suburbs.
  - kryogen1c 10mo ago
    And how do you think vehicle ownership compares between those two groups?
    - empthought 10mo ago
      In the cities and suburbs—-where the vast majority of trucks are garaged—-they are generally an obnoxious luxury good. Which is why new pickup truck models are so often not fit-for-purpose as a working truck of any kind. Like an EV F-150.
  - acheron 10mo ago
    Those census definitions are not good. I’m sure the place I went to high school is considered “city” by that definition, but the average HN poster would not recognize it as one, and there were lots of farm working trucks around.
    - empthought 10mo ago
      It turns out that anecdotes don't constitute data. If the place you went to high school is considered "city" by the census definition, then I guarantee the majority of pickup trucks in the area were obnoxious luxury goods that never hauled a single thing to or from a farm.
JojoFatsani 10mo ago
The interior is identical to the gas F-150
slimebot80 10mo ago
"They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla" Wow, must be absolute crap if they are poor copies of Tesla, given how plastic and uncomfortable Tesla interior/ux is
- dare944 10mo ago
  My thought exactly!
- iknowstuff 10mo ago
  There is no plastic, everything is soft touch or metal and software is best in class
- ascorbic 10mo ago
  Tesla interiors are crap, but the infotainment is better than pretty much everyone else. It's the only thing I miss after getting rid of mine.
homeonthemtn 10mo ago
That last point is important though. If you want a truck to be adopted it needs to tow.
rootusrootus 10mo ago
> * The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive I paid 50K. A comparable powerboost was 10% more expensive. > They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable Huh? These share a lot of parts with a regular F150. Just not the motor. > They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla You mean it has a normal infotainment system like every other F150? > excessive exterior accent lighting, badges, over-complicated blinkers Are we talking about the same truck? Aside from some trims with the light on the tailgate, I don't know what you're talking about. ICE F150s have the same sorts of lights and badges and as far as I know exactly the same blinkers. > single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications). Hey, we agree on something after all.
NegativeK 10mo ago
When they were first released, there was a fleet/commercial only model that was stripped down and roughly $40k. _That_ was the model that I expected to succeed. Presumably the same type of truck my employer bought from dealerships 20 years ago, with the sterile interior. But that doesn't address any of your other points, and I can't imagine a business owner that has very little incentive to change how they're buying vehicles to even care about the Lightning if they aren't seeing their friends or themselves in the modern minivan that's called a truck today, just electrified.
- giantg2 10mo ago
  I wonder if that $40k price was a loss leading tactic. Seems unrealistic for an electric truck to cost basically the same as the ICE version work truck.
giantg2 10mo ago
Insurance is a higher cost too.
tw04 10mo ago
> *They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla Having owned both an EV Ford and a Tesla I can say with absolute certainty that the ford runs circles around the Tesla. Outside of having steam games on the screen, Tesla’s infotainment does literally nothing better, and the interface itself feels like an early 2000s Linux gui. Oh, and Ford actually supports carplay and android auto.
- Zambyte 10mo ago
  Outside of... having Steam games? What?
  - dzhiurgis 10mo ago
    Tesla's briefly had Steam
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- iknowstuff 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Marsymars 10mo ago
    So, I haven't driven a Ford EV for any significant amount of time so can't comment on the "navigating via chargers" part, but I'd take Ford's non-EV infotainment system over Tesla's system. Ford's is obnoxiously laggy, basically just above the bar of that I'd consider a shippable product, but Tesla's touchscreen for things that should be buttons is awful, and the lack of Android Auto/Carplay is crippling. And tangential to the infotainment system, Tesla dropping sat radio receivers is pretty annoying if you're frequently outside of cell service.
    - iknowstuff 10mo ago
      Nah everything you need is available on the steering wheel contextually. You would know that if you had one. You would also know why Tesla owners don’t care for android auto or carplay much (though I recognize that it’s definitely a selling point because people have this stance from their experience with other cars, which suck)
nunez 10mo ago
The interior is more or less the same as the ICE version of the F-150, and there is a lot of parts sharing between them. Probably part of the reason why it didn't have great range. EVs are also much simpler to repair, on average. Definitely not disposable. They sure were expensive, though.
iberator 10mo ago
LOL. Why would you need a truck if not for towing something?!
- tonyedgecombe 10mo ago
  Modern cars are emotional purchases, manufacturers have figured out exactly which buttons to press to manipulate us into buying them. They are pretty much the only consumer good whose price has outrun inflation over the last fifty years.
- ActorNightly 10mo ago
  Its not about need for a lot of people. Its about having the money to optimize, aspects of their life, which everyone does in different areas. Trucks have the following advantages * Can drive most anywhere due to high ground clearance and 4wd. This comes in handy quite a bit. Having 4wd + weight + all terrain or appropriate tires means being able to leave the place during a winter storm versus being snowed in. * Can carry big things or dirty things. Motorcycles, mountain bikes, furniture, landscaping supplies, and so on, without being limited in where you can go or how fast you can go while towing a trailer like you would with an SUV. * They are safer for the occupants. Can't control if other people drink and drive. Can control if you survive or not if you get hit by a drunk driver.
jacquesm 10mo ago
> A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired True but they also break, a lot. Workmanship and materials are poor, things that should be made for the life of the car break well before they should. And not just trim, engine and transmission supports, supension and steering components and so on. They were good cars. In the 70's or so, and it has been steadily down hill from there, even though the engines themselves have improved considerably the rest of the car has only become more and more fragile.
ActorNightly 10mo ago
>They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla Man, Tesla apologists are rewriting reality now. In no way shape or form is Tesla interior even remotely good.
- 0xffff2 10mo ago
  The OP didn't actually imply that Tesla is good, just that Ford is worse.
- fragmede 10mo ago
  I think you've been smelling too many of your car's ICE fumes there, mate. It's true that Tesla interiors aren't lined with old growth redwood trees that can never be replaced, and the seats don't use the finest baby seal leather like you'd find in a custom Bentley, but "even remotely good" is as ridiculous level of Elon hate as Teslafanboyism that thinks Elon Musk is the second coming (he's not). It's a car. The interior is fine. We can quibble if it's high end Honda-level fine or Benz level luxury, but it's not like the seats have an arm that stabs in you the chest at every stop light or something.
  - ActorNightly 10mo ago
    Sure its fine, but like a basic Toyota interior is quite a lot better than anything Tesla has. Its pretty obvious where they cut costs.
    - whamlastxmas 10mo ago
      Strongly disagree. I find the materials in Teslas to be perfectly fine, and the aesthetic itself is basically unsurpassed, but I'm a big fan of minimalism and hate the 8 million buttons and dials some cars have, which I think is really just driving home (hah) that these are all subjective opinions and not of it is fact so we maybe shouldn't state it as such
      - ActorNightly 10mo ago

bink 10mo ago

> The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive They definitely aimed for the luxury market, like Rivian. Who knows how successful they would've been if they aimed for mid-range like Scout. That's the market they claimed to be entering when they started taking reservations. They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to. > They're difficult to repair How so? They are far simpler to maintain than a normal F-150. They're new so they do have parts issues for the electronic components, I'm sure, but I think that's a fair trade-off. In any case, I don't think offering a hybrid version makes the vehicles easier to maintain or repair. If anything it's the opposite. > Parts availability is scarce, contrasted with a regular F-150 (even junkyards are full of spare parts, that aren't software constrained) I thought one of the advantages of the F-150 was that most parts were shared with the standard F-150? The battery and motors, maybe not.

tracker1 10mo ago
Significant portions of the body and interior were not shared with general F-150 models... At least those parts most likely to be damaged in minor accidents... imagine having your work truck in the shop for 2-3 months for want of a corner light fixture.
- bink 10mo ago
  Yeah, that's definitely a no-go. I think you'd see that with any new model, however. I once had a Ducati in the shop for 4-5 months just waiting on a wheel because it was a new model.
- rootusrootus 10mo ago
  The interior of the pro model is identical to an ICE F150. The only part which breaks with any regularity is shared with ICE F150s, in fact. The only interior difference I can think of on any trim of Lightning is the big screen on higher models. But it's the same underlying SYNC system as every other F150, no magic there. It has breakable expensive headlights and taillights, that is for sure. But so do ICE F150s...
  - philipallstar 10mo ago
    > It has breakable expensive headlights and taillights, that is for sure. But so do ICE F150s... The point is they're harder to get because they're rarer.
- turtlebits 10mo ago
  Parts availability is not a problem for established manufacturers, especially mass market vehicles.
  - tracker1 10mo ago
    I guess the F-150 Lightning and Electric Mustang weren't from an established mfg... because they regularly were waiting months on parts.
shmoe 10mo ago
They also could've offered a fleet ready version without the luxury features, but must've decided not to. They did offer a fleet version.. the "Pro".
- sh34r 10mo ago
  I mean, what do we expect from this brainless company that promised a $20k Maverick and let the stealerships mark it up to over $40k?
  - ecshafer 10mo ago
    Ford announced the Maverick, it got so much excitement that it sold out and dealerships sold for over MSRP. So in their infinite wisdom they... didn't make more mid range trucks. Ill never understand these guys.
    - kevin_thibedeau 10mo ago
      The idea is that you make more profit selling 50,000 cheap trucks and 50,000 expensive trucks than just 100,000 cheap trucks. When you can fool a largely innumerate populace into 84-month loans with "cheap" monthly payments, overpriced vehicles are the way to go.
      - aydyn 10mo ago
        Competition? Its not like ford is the only seller out there.
        ethbr1 10mo ago
        All US automakers are doing the same thing. There's gentle up-marketing collusion. The issue at root is that auto demand is a finite, population-based amount. Automakers are all pretty good at margin and manufacturing cost control. So that leaves the only independent variable that can influence revenue and profits as {average sold vehicle price}. New entrants face a scale issue: it's difficult to compete with the larger manufacturers' production costs with orders of magnitude less sales volume. Which is why you historically only saw state-sponsored new manufacturers break into the market (read: Japan, Korea, China). Electrification turned some of this on its head, but not completely. GM, Ford, et al. can still build just enough mid-market electrics to spoil others volumes, without attempting to build something really good and cannibalizing their own luxury vehicles.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 10mo ago

> single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications). Readers might enjoy this, though I can't find the conclusions section at a glance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKf8smvGsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKf8smvGsA "The Truth about Electric Towing" - The video author says that weight doesn't make much difference, but aerodynamics does. Towing a big flat piece of plywood that weighs 50 pounds but catches the wind is much worse for your range (or MPG) than towing an entire second truck, if the towed truck is aerodynamic.

rascul 10mo ago
He's only comparing highway driving. As he notes, city driving (or really anything with a lot of accelerating) will see the impact of weight on fuel consumption. Seems like regen brakes can help mitigate that for electric vehicles. Side note, if he set the parking brake when getting loaded then the second tailgate denting might not have happened. It'll also help save the transmission.
rootusrootus 10mo ago
Yes, Ford has done plenty of tests as have regular folks, loading the bed to the weight limit of the truck doesn't have much impact at all on range. It's 99% about the aero.

tracker1 10mo ago

I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered as much as months, where having a "work truck" down for months is an intolerable position. The cost is also kind of crazy between inflated factory and dealer pricing as much as $20k over sticker price. Yeah, there was some early demand, but over-charging really cooled that and the demand overall. I'm with you on some of the interior features, they're cool, but the overall inflated price is just too much. On the flip side, the Chevy "Work Truck" is kinda too far the other direction imo. Similar on the more complex exterior, though I actually like it, it's not practical for its' prescibed purpose. If Ford could create a stripped down EV equivalent to Chevy's "Work Truck" at even 50% higher cost, I think it would do very well. They're very good for in-city use in terms of range on a charge, it's definitely good enough for most general tradecraft use, but the bloat and pricing really drag it down. Much like most cars in general these days. Pretty much the only interesting new car I've seen this year was the Hundai Palasade, which IMO was just a good value for what it is. Kind of disappointing to see Nissan drop the Titan line. While I'd prefer to buy American brands, the fact that is that I don't think they deliver on overall value or reliability as well as competing brands. And it gets muddied further with foreign brands with US assembly and American brands now owned or otherwise operated or significantly built outside the US.

omnimus 10mo ago
I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.
- formerly_proven 10mo ago
  Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

nospice 10mo ago

> The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive So are RAM trucks and I don't think they're hurting for customers. I think there are two fundamental issues. One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US - i.e., if you're progressive, you're supposed to hate them and see them as the symbol of the gun-totting macho redneck culture, and if you're conservative, you're supposed to love them because they're gas-guzzling freedom machines that "own the libs". An electric pickup straddles these political choices in a hard-to-market way. The other problem is that electric pickups don't really solve any pressing problem for the buyer. They're more expensive up front, more expensive to keep running (unless you also invest a lot of $$$ into solar), and harder to repair, but they don't boast better specs... well, except for acceleration, which isn't a huge selling point for trucks.

roadside_picnic 10mo ago
> One is that pickups are a weirdly-politicized lifestyle choice in the US Based on my personal experience traveling, there's a more practical reason for the political divide. I spend a good portion of my life in rural parts of the US these days, where most of the residents are pretty conservative. But these are also parts of the country where I get nervous when I'm on 1/4 tank of gas. If you're routinely out in places where the nearest gas station might be > 50 miles away, you also see a dip in e-vehicles for very practical reasons. When I'm at home in a city, it makes perfect sense to own an e-vehicle: typically I'm only driving a few miles a day, and the car spends most of it's time at my house or in a parking garage. When I'm out on business, and driving across hundreds of miles of barely inhabited land, I cannot imagine the stress of having an electric truck. It's not just about being 50 miles from a gas station, it's about the time it takes to charge on top of that. In rural parts of the country, especially when you're out working, you can easily be putting on mileage combined with being far enough away from a charger that it just doesn't make sense to have an e-vehicle.
- ghaff 10mo ago
  I do know someone who bought a Tesla after debating it for a long time. And it was only after getting comfortable with the range for a mostly weekly drive into the country.

tshaddox 10mo ago

Isn't the only EV F-150 the Lightning? The Lightning has always been the sports model, so I can't imagine it ever made sense economically as a work truck.

driverdan 10mo ago
They reused the name much like they used the Mustang name for their electric SUV. Past Lightnings were single trim level performance trucks. The current Lightning mirrors the regular F150 trim levels but with an electric drivetrain.
- rootusrootus 10mo ago
  It's a little more complicated. The Lightning has always been about performance, and that includes the EV. It'll demolish every other F150 (and most other regular cars for that matter) that doesn't say "Raptor R" on the side.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago

> They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable Is this due to the parts problem?

Teever 10mo ago
Honestly sounds more like a regulation problem to me. So many companies will not prioritize serviceability unless mandated by law.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > companies will not prioritize serviceability unless mandated by law Ford is “expected to take about $19.5 billion in charges, mainly tied to its electric-vehicle business” [1]. If serviceability was the problem, that sounds like a solid incentive to get it right. [1] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ford-takes-19-5-billion-charge-to-write-down-ev-investments-333a9bc4?mod=mhp https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ford-takes-19-5-billion-c...
  - Teever 10mo ago
    I'm not sure quite sure how your comment relates to mine. The way I see it is if there was sufficient enforcement of regulations around spare parts and serviceability then there's no way Ford could have stood up a factory that spat out a bunch of electric trucks without also producing a bunch of spare parts so the unreasonable delay to end users trying to repair their vehicles didn't occur. I don't have to worry about getting a car battery or sparkplug because these things are standardized and mass produced. That's due to regulation. The regulations just don't go far enough and the enforcement of them is obviously lax in 21st entury America
rootusrootus 10mo ago
It's due to ignorance. The Lightning is an F150 with a battery pack and motors instead of an engine and gas tank. It shares a -lot- with the 'regular' F150. It's just about the least complicated EV you can buy, which makes it extra funny to hear someone compare it to an iPhone. Sit inside and you can't tell the difference except for how much quieter and silly fast it is.

stonogo 10mo ago

I feel like many of these comparisons are more applicable to an F-150 of twenty years ago. Modern F-150s start at forty grand, are so hard to repair that the CEO of Ford whines about not having enough mechanics willing to get a PhD in Ford Repair, are absolutely software-constrained to the extent they're legally allowed, and have almost as many cockpit gizmos. The primary difference is the flashy bloat, but the majority of F-150s are sold at trim levels that include such things. Even the lowest-trim fleet F-150 these days is basically a luxury minivan with a bed compared to the models of yesteryear. My guess is that grid operators are offering more money than carbuyers, with the wild popularity of solar and wind.

chasd00 10mo ago
Yeah the F150 is a strange vehicle. It has a proven reputation as a blue collar workhorse. However, a fully loaded Raptor trim is a 6 figure price tag easy.
- stonogo 10mo ago
  And somewhat more relevant, the Transit product line is doing a brisk business in the fleet market. Unless you specifically need to tow, a lot of trades are better served with a van these days.
- NetMageSCW 10mo ago
  The price of a Raptor is hardly relevant to anyone looking for a work truck - do you think the Civic Type R price is relevant to most buyers of Civics? Or the Corvette ZR1X relevant to most Corvette buyers?
  - chasd00 10mo ago
    The point i wanted to make was that "Ford F150" means many and very different things, more so than your average vehicle. Even a Civic or Corvette.

nebula8804 10mo ago

I guess we will find out if many of these things actually matter with the Slate truck. It is in many ways the antithesis of this electric F-150. If that vehicle fails then there are no more excuses, a significant chunk of Americans just don't like electric vehicles and are destined to be laggards.

baby_souffle 10mo ago
I might be biased because I hang out in the slate subreddit and have been pretty attentive to The product as a whole since they announced it this spring but I think they're on to something assuming they can figure out how to build out the service and parts network. The vehicle itself may be a runaway sales success but if there's only or two locations in each major state where you can get it serviced, that runaway success will be extremely short-lived. In theory the simplicity means that it shouldn't be difficult to partner with any independent shop... No complicated or proprietary software theoretically means that any shop with tools and a lift can do the work. Time will tell, though. I remain optimistic and eagerly await delivery of my truck.
- api 10mo ago
  They seem like Framework for cars. Am also following closely.
- nebula8804 10mo ago
  Have they even given anyone a test drive or shown anything other than that single press car at all their events? Im starting to get worried that as we approach release expectations may fall flat. I am tired of all the youtuber just sitting in the truck and repeating the same press release.
  - baby_souffle 10mo ago
    As far as I know they are hoping to do this in early 2026. So far the only vehicles they have shown off have been validation prototypes.
- 10mo ago

khannn 10mo ago

> * The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive > * They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable. Add in the crap tow range and it looks like Ford upmarket, as it's known to do, and failed. Just reading these points makes me think that it was designed to fail.

kryogen1c 10mo ago

This is pretty much dead on. I live in a rural part of the US and there are tons of old, worked-on trucks. The idea that there might be an all-electric f150 hanging out in 40 years is, frankly, laughable. I know a lot of city kids think trucks are some obnoxious luxury good, but they're basically a functional requirement in most of the (very large) country.

empthought 10mo ago
Less than 20% of Americans live in most of the (very large) country. The rest live in cities and suburbs.
- kryogen1c 10mo ago
  And how do you think vehicle ownership compares between those two groups?
  - empthought 10mo ago
    In the cities and suburbs—-where the vast majority of trucks are garaged—-they are generally an obnoxious luxury good. Which is why new pickup truck models are so often not fit-for-purpose as a working truck of any kind. Like an EV F-150.
- acheron 10mo ago
  Those census definitions are not good. I’m sure the place I went to high school is considered “city” by that definition, but the average HN poster would not recognize it as one, and there were lots of farm working trucks around.
  - empthought 10mo ago
    It turns out that anecdotes don't constitute data. If the place you went to high school is considered "city" by the census definition, then I guarantee the majority of pickup trucks in the area were obnoxious luxury goods that never hauled a single thing to or from a farm.

JojoFatsani 10mo ago

The interior is identical to the gas F-150

slimebot80 10mo ago

"They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla" Wow, must be absolute crap if they are poor copies of Tesla, given how plastic and uncomfortable Tesla interior/ux is

dare944 10mo ago
My thought exactly!
iknowstuff 10mo ago
There is no plastic, everything is soft touch or metal and software is best in class
ascorbic 10mo ago
Tesla interiors are crap, but the infotainment is better than pretty much everyone else. It's the only thing I miss after getting rid of mine.

homeonthemtn 10mo ago

That last point is important though. If you want a truck to be adopted it needs to tow.

rootusrootus 10mo ago

> * The price isn't right for small businesses. These trucks are quite expensive I paid 50K. A comparable powerboost was 10% more expensive. > They're difficult to repair. A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired; these things are designed like iPhones to be disposable Huh? These share a lot of parts with a regular F150. Just not the motor. > They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla You mean it has a normal infotainment system like every other F150? > excessive exterior accent lighting, badges, over-complicated blinkers Are we talking about the same truck? Aside from some trims with the light on the tailgate, I don't know what you're talking about. ICE F150s have the same sorts of lights and badges and as far as I know exactly the same blinkers. > single-charge range issues are pretty much non-existent (for non-towing applications). Hey, we agree on something after all.

NegativeK 10mo ago

When they were first released, there was a fleet/commercial only model that was stripped down and roughly $40k. _That_ was the model that I expected to succeed. Presumably the same type of truck my employer bought from dealerships 20 years ago, with the sterile interior. But that doesn't address any of your other points, and I can't imagine a business owner that has very little incentive to change how they're buying vehicles to even care about the Lightning if they aren't seeing their friends or themselves in the modern minivan that's called a truck today, just electrified.

giantg2 10mo ago
I wonder if that $40k price was a loss leading tactic. Seems unrealistic for an electric truck to cost basically the same as the ICE version work truck.

giantg2 10mo ago

Insurance is a higher cost too.

tw04 10mo ago

> *They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla Having owned both an EV Ford and a Tesla I can say with absolute certainty that the ford runs circles around the Tesla. Outside of having steam games on the screen, Tesla’s infotainment does literally nothing better, and the interface itself feels like an early 2000s Linux gui. Oh, and Ford actually supports carplay and android auto.

Zambyte 10mo ago
Outside of... having Steam games? What?
- dzhiurgis 10mo ago
  Tesla's briefly had Steam
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
iknowstuff 10mo ago
[flagged]
- Marsymars 10mo ago
  So, I haven't driven a Ford EV for any significant amount of time so can't comment on the "navigating via chargers" part, but I'd take Ford's non-EV infotainment system over Tesla's system. Ford's is obnoxiously laggy, basically just above the bar of that I'd consider a shippable product, but Tesla's touchscreen for things that should be buttons is awful, and the lack of Android Auto/Carplay is crippling. And tangential to the infotainment system, Tesla dropping sat radio receivers is pretty annoying if you're frequently outside of cell service.
  - iknowstuff 10mo ago
    Nah everything you need is available on the steering wheel contextually. You would know that if you had one. You would also know why Tesla owners don’t care for android auto or carplay much (though I recognize that it’s definitely a selling point because people have this stance from their experience with other cars, which suck)

nunez 10mo ago

The interior is more or less the same as the ICE version of the F-150, and there is a lot of parts sharing between them. Probably part of the reason why it didn't have great range. EVs are also much simpler to repair, on average. Definitely not disposable. They sure were expensive, though.

iberator 10mo ago

LOL. Why would you need a truck if not for towing something?!

tonyedgecombe 10mo ago
Modern cars are emotional purchases, manufacturers have figured out exactly which buttons to press to manipulate us into buying them. They are pretty much the only consumer good whose price has outrun inflation over the last fifty years.
ActorNightly 10mo ago
Its not about need for a lot of people. Its about having the money to optimize, aspects of their life, which everyone does in different areas. Trucks have the following advantages * Can drive most anywhere due to high ground clearance and 4wd. This comes in handy quite a bit. Having 4wd + weight + all terrain or appropriate tires means being able to leave the place during a winter storm versus being snowed in. * Can carry big things or dirty things. Motorcycles, mountain bikes, furniture, landscaping supplies, and so on, without being limited in where you can go or how fast you can go while towing a trailer like you would with an SUV. * They are safer for the occupants. Can't control if other people drink and drive. Can control if you survive or not if you get hit by a drunk driver.

jacquesm 10mo ago

> A regular F-150 is designed to be repaired True but they also break, a lot. Workmanship and materials are poor, things that should be made for the life of the car break well before they should. And not just trim, engine and transmission supports, supension and steering components and so on. They were good cars. In the 70's or so, and it has been steadily down hill from there, even though the engines themselves have improved considerably the rest of the car has only become more and more fragile.

ActorNightly 10mo ago

>They're loaded with useless/barely-functional interior electronics that are poor copies of Tesla Man, Tesla apologists are rewriting reality now. In no way shape or form is Tesla interior even remotely good.

0xffff2 10mo ago
The OP didn't actually imply that Tesla is good, just that Ford is worse.
fragmede 10mo ago
I think you've been smelling too many of your car's ICE fumes there, mate. It's true that Tesla interiors aren't lined with old growth redwood trees that can never be replaced, and the seats don't use the finest baby seal leather like you'd find in a custom Bentley, but "even remotely good" is as ridiculous level of Elon hate as Teslafanboyism that thinks Elon Musk is the second coming (he's not). It's a car. The interior is fine. We can quibble if it's high end Honda-level fine or Benz level luxury, but it's not like the seats have an arm that stabs in you the chest at every stop light or something.
- ActorNightly 10mo ago
  Sure its fine, but like a basic Toyota interior is quite a lot better than anything Tesla has. Its pretty obvious where they cut costs.
  - whamlastxmas 10mo ago
    Strongly disagree. I find the materials in Teslas to be perfectly fine, and the aesthetic itself is basically unsurpassed, but I'm a big fan of minimalism and hate the 8 million buttons and dials some cars have, which I think is really just driving home (hah) that these are all subjective opinions and not of it is fact so we maybe shouldn't state it as such
    - ActorNightly 10mo ago