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Can we have a grown up discussion that uses numbers instead of hyperbole? Certainly you can argue income inequality is too high and capital holders and high ea
by jimbokun 11mo ago
Can we have a grown up discussion that uses numbers instead of hyperbole?
Certainly you can argue income inequality is too high and capital holders and high earners need to pay much more.
But you cannot seriously argue that capital owners "avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems". They pay a lot in capital gains and income taxes, even if they don't contribute as much as they should.
- mrwrong 11mo ago> Can we have a grown up discussion starting your reply with an insult, great way to spark "grown up discussion"
- pinkmuffinere 11mo agoWhat is the non-insulting alternative? Here's my proposal: Can we have an honest discussion that uses numbers instead of hyperbole? Notably, that still seems pretty insulting to me. jimbokun wants to have an honest discussion about the problem, using true data instead of emotional exaggeration. This is a reasonable thing to ask IMO, but of course it seems like an insult towards the person that's making stuff up.
- adventured 11mo agoThe whole reason for the use of "pay their fair share" while never actually defining what the fair share is supposed to be. It's solely about hit & run propaganda. Avoiding discussing actual numbers is a requirement to the politics.
- n1b0m 11mo agoUltra-wealthy individuals legally minimise their tax liability by: Receiving a relatively low official salary (Bezos's Amazon salary was $81,840 for many years). Not receiving dividends, so the wealth remains in stock that is not taxed annually. Borrowing money against their stock holdings to fund their lifestyle. Loans are not considered income and are therefore not taxable, and the interest on the loans can sometimes be used as a deduction.
- thethimble 11mo agoBorrowing against illiquid assets should be considered a taxable event. Seems like this would entirely fix the loophole.
- ch4s3 11mo agoSo every small business loan should be a taxable event?
- dzhiurgis 11mo agoYou pay taxes when you are paying off your loan...
- tenuousemphasis 11mo agoReally? What taxes?
- Windchaser 11mo agoRather, you pay taxes on the income you use to repay the loan. Plus you pay the interest on the loan. This basically defers the taxes to a later date and charges you interest for 'em. Which might be worthwhile, depending on how quickly and reliably your capital is growing.
- xjm 11mo agoOnly if you pay it off with taxable income. If you have a lot of assets you can just refinance your loan with more debt.
- ceejayoz 11mo ago> But you cannot seriously argue that capital owners "avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems". Sure we can. Peter Thiel managed to put $5 billion in his Roth IRA. https://www.propublica.org/article/billionaires-tax-avoidance-techniques-irs-files https://www.propublica.org/article/billionaires-tax-avoidanc... "Using stock deals unavailable to most people, Thiel has taken a retirement account worth less than $2,000 in 1999 and spun it into a $5 billion windfall... What’s more, as long as Thiel waits to withdraw his money until April 2027, when he is six months shy of his 60th birthday, he will never have to pay a penny of tax on those billions."
- thethimble 11mo agoBut this strategy is also eligible to you. Nothing is stopping you from turning your Roth IRA into a multi billion tax free gain.
- ceejayoz 11mo ago"Using stock deals unavailable to most people" is the very first phrase I quoted.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- bcrosby95 11mo agoDamn, I knew when I picked "not billionaire" I would regret it.
- machomaster 11mo agoThis is because of badly organized incentives. What we should do is to implement a tax on poor people. This will make them understand that being poor is less profitable than being rich and they will be motivated to become rich.
- unethical_ban 11mo agoI choose to interpret this as satire.
- insane_dreamer 11mo agoNumbers, from the article: > In the United States, for example, about 85% of federal tax revenue comes from labor income, That means only 15% is coming from all other taxes, including corporate taxes, capital gains taxes, and other taxes on the wealthy (estate taxes), mostly because they find creative ways -- and loopholes by design -- that allow them to reduce those taxes significantly.
- jimbokun 11mo agoYes! Numbers are good. Making capital gains taxes more progressive is a good first step.
- ASalazarMX 11mo agoWhat a naive position. People hate to pay taxes, the more they have to pay, the more they avoid it. Megacorps openly hiding money in fiscal paradises are the tip of the iceberg. Companies, and individuals, at every level, try to pay as little as possible, becoming as creative as the methods their wealth can unlock. If billionaires (soon to be trillionaries) paid as much taxes as their wealth disparity compared to the middle class, a significant percent of the population would be exempt from taxes by the sheer insignificance of their contribution, and I don't mean only the poorest people.
- jimbokun 11mo agoEven with all that, top 1% of earners pay more than 40% of overall tax revenue in the US.
- ceejayoz 11mo agoNow do the corresponding percentage of the wealth they hoover up. (Plus, one of the tricks employed is to avoid earning actual taxable money. Steve Jobs famously had a $1 salary; folks like Musk now just borrow against their ever-rising shares. https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trov...) > But take out a loan, and these days you’ll pay a single-digit interest rate and no tax; since loans must be paid back, the IRS doesn’t consider them income. Banks typically require collateral, but the wealthy have plenty of that.
- jack_tripper 11mo agoThe likes of Musk and Bezos are not earners though. They don't get a salary. They pay nothing in taxes as long as they don't cash out their wealth.