7 ms·
Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.
by cramsession 10mo ago
Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.
- impossiblefork 10mo ago* * *
- cramsession 10mo ago“Expected” is not enough. These bombs didn’t go off in active war zone. They went off in public in Lebanon, and maimed and killed civilians.
- impossiblefork 10mo agoI found this thesis from some guy doing a master in international operation law at the Swedish defence college, https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT01.pdf https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT... and I interpret his analysis as that it was targeted enough to be legal.
- dlubarov 10mo agoThe principle of proportionality is explicitly about expectations, i.e. expected military advantage vs expected collateral damage. You seem to be holding Israel to an impossible standard of guaranteeing zero collateral damage, which IHL does not require because no military is capable of that.
- UltraSane 10mo agoHezbollah was actively launching thousands of missiles at Israel when these pagers blew up. They stopped launching missiles at Israel en masse soon after these pagers blew up. What a odd coincidence.
- kamikazeturtles 10mo agoMany of the people who had the pagers were doctors, lawyers, bureaucrats... Maybe I'm wrong, but, I think Hezb0-lla-h is pretty much the "government", especially in southern Lebanon
- oldandboring 10mo ago[flagged]
- cmavvv 10mo agoThat's like planting a bomb in front of a military camp. You might have a target, but in the end you just kill whoever was nearby at that time. In the case of the pager attack, that includes children aged 11 and 12, as well as a nurse. That's much closer to a terrorist attack than to legal warfare.
- impossiblefork 10mo agoYes, but planting a bomb in front of a military camp is absolutely legal.
- simonsarris 10mo ago"planting a bomb in front of a military camp" is like the textbook goal for bomb-planting devices (airplanes, artillery, MRLs), its one of the most normal scenarios out of all of normal war scenarios. Planting a bomb on each soldier would be even better.
- nicce 10mo agoYou cannot quarantee who is holding the pager at the moment of explosion.
- UltraSane 10mo agoYou can have a reasonable expectation secure military pagers are only going to be used by soldiers. Given how few collateral deaths there were this was a reasonable assumption.
- lucideer 10mo agoThere might be some potential legal defense in terms of proportionality of collateral damage but it's so thin here as to be absurd. Regardless, given the number of war crimes this army has been found guilty of, this is somewhat moot. What's another war crime in the grand scheme of things.
- tguvot 10mo agothere is 0 war crimes that IDF has been found guilty of by any legal authority.
- lucideer 10mo agoThere's no central enforcement of international war crime law, so this thread on legal technicalities isn't particularly relevant in real terms, but there is at least an arrest warrant out for the (former) Minister for Defence & Prime Minister in 124 countries, so there's not a lot of room for ambiguity here.
- tguvot 10mo agoso you agree that nobody in IDF was found guilty of war crimes ? been accused it's not same as been found guilty. at least last time I checked.
- oldandboring 10mo ago[flagged]
- dilawar 10mo agomight is right. /s
- bilekas 10mo ago"It's not a war crime the first time!" Anyway sadly even if they did start attacking civilians, say Palestinian civilians as a random example, who is going to enforce the penalty for war crimes. These days its seems they're more of a suggestion than a rule of engaging in war.
- sekh60 10mo agoWar crime laws only apply to poorer nations sadly
- spwa4 10mo agoHuh? Lebanon is not being held to war crime laws, and is the poorer nation. They bombed Northern Israel for over 2 years, including a soccer field full of children that weren't their targets but are very much dead. If anything, it's the opposite.
- kyboren 10mo ago[flagged]
- KptMarchewa 10mo agoTargeting here goes beyond reasonable expectation from a military at war. Compare that to the russian terror of lobbing 500kg bombs at random housing blocks.
- moi2388 10mo agoDoes it? Do you have any data on how many of these devices ended up in civilian hands? Afaik they intercepted a shipment for Hamas members only. Do you have more information? How many civilians there even use these pagers instead of mobile phones? Are there any?
- cramsession 10mo agoHamas is in Gaza, this attack was against Hezbollah and civilians in Lebanon.
- cjbenedikt 10mo agoA year on, some Lebanese bystanders hurt in Israel’s pager attack still recovering... Over 3,400 were wounded when devices belonging to Hezbollah members exploded https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-year-on-some-lebanese-bystanders-hurt-in-israels-pager-attack-still-recovering/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-year-on-some-lebanese-bystan...
- AnimalMuppet 10mo ago3,400 bystanders? Or 3,400 mostly-Hezbollah but some bystanders?
- cjbenedikt 10mo ago[flagged]
- AnimalMuppet 10mo ago[flagged]
- UltraSane 10mo agoThe people those pagers were given to were NOT civilians. They were active members of Hezbollah.
- bunji 10mo agoThe intended targets of the exploding papers weren't civilians. Very few actual civilians ended up hurt by the detonations, much fewer than attacks by conventional weapons. It's about as targeted an attack as one can achieve from a distance. As an act of warfare, Israel did a splendid job on this. Thoroughly impressive work.
- LarsDu88 10mo agoPeople tend to easily forget that the civilian casualty ratio for conventional warfare is around 50% These attacks killed and maimed children, but firing JDAMs kills and maims even more children. Not excusing the Israeli military here... they definitely dropped a lot of JDAMs, unguided artillery, and indiscriminate autocannon munitions on Gaza. But the specific point on the pager attacks being against civilians is not a great argument. Another thing I will note is that a lot of Palestinian groups also use similar reasoning towards targeting the Israeli population on the basis of the fact there is mass conscription in place.
- tw04 10mo ago> People tend to easily forget that the civilian casualty ratio for conventional warfare is around 50% Causality in war includes people that were only injured. This was far, far more than a 50% casualty rate. More like a 9552% casualty rate.
- tw04 10mo ago> Very few actual civilians ended up hurt by the detonations, much fewer than attacks by conventional weapons. The reports are 4,000 wounded and 12 killed unintended targets in order to kill 42 targets. On what planet is that “very few actual civilians”? I think you knew full well before posting that’s a ridiculous claim which is why you did it anonymously.
- kyboren 10mo ago> The reports are 4,000 wounded and 12 killed unintended targets Which reports? According to whom? Hezbollah?
- iso1631 10mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...
- SoftTalker 10mo agoThat's a relatively new concept, certainly not true historically.
- da-x 10mo agoNo war in history has completely avoided any civilian casualties or attacks on civilian populations, as even limited conflicts often involve indirect harm (e.g., from stray fire, blockades, or displacement), and larger wars almost inevitably affect non-combatants. Curious how the concept of the 'war crime' is weaponized by the pacifist and largely ignored by the non-pacifist that knows how proper deescalation can take place.