9 ms·

Project Gemini

327 points by andsoitis 1y ago

rappatic 1y ago
Why is everything named Gemini these days?
- adocomplete 1y ago
  yeah seems like an odd choice for a new project.
  - mpalmer 1y ago
    The project is six years old
    - adocomplete 1y ago
      I stand corrected.
  - jasonjmcghee 1y ago
    This long predates Google LLMs
- mock-possum 1y ago
  Yeah it seems like everybody and their brother is naming things Gemini, is there a dual meaning I’m not aware of?
  - incognito124 1y ago
    Nice pair of Gemini puns
- arnaudsm 1y ago
  The Gemini protocol started in 2019, before Google's Gemini in 2023. It's proably a popular word for tech workers fans of the american space race.
  - exasperaited 1y ago
    Or for people who want to evoke notions of duality/parallels/twinship.
- didi_bear 1y ago
  Because Copilot was already taken
- throitallaway 1y ago
  Google renamed Bard to Gemini last year. Side note: Google's "Gemini" product name is way overloaded. They have like 6 different things that you can buy/use that are named that.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Sounds like IBM’s “Watson”
- chankstein38 1y ago
  Right? I clicked in here thinking it meant Google's Gemini but of course not just another uncreative name that clutters search results. (I'm not sure if Google's Gemini or Project Gemini is the uncreative clutter, but either way.)
stbenjam 1y ago
So Gopher?
- billfor 1y ago
  gopher over http: Seems like firefox et al removed support for it years ago.
  - stbenjam 1y ago
    Gemini's native protocol isn't HTTP, they invented their own. I don't really see what this does you couldn't do with simple HTML pages (or Gopher 35 years ago).
    - jerf 1y ago
      Nothing. But that's not the point.
    - josh-sematic 1y ago
      I think some of the point is what you can’t do with it rather than what you can. It’s an intentionally very restrictive protocol.
    - RiverCrochet 1y ago
      Even simple HTML pages may require Javascript and want to run code on your computer or phone. You need knowledge of the document, knowledge of its author, or constant keepup and awareness of browser settings (e.g. did some update re-enable Javascript) to mitigate this. A .gmi is 100% certain not to need any extra code capable of potential unwanted external communications, not now and not in the future. Also .gmi is extremely simple and can be rendered very simply (and thus more securely) because it can be processed nearly statelessly line by line, without need of a rendering tree or document model.
  - djaboss 1y ago
    ... which looks even more stupid when you can force quite a number of browsers to get you something through gopher if you just pretend it's http on port 70. of course you have to self interpret the result, but gophermaps are quite readable. :)
bnchrch 1y ago
If we maintain this trajectory Gemini is going to have as many dual meanings in the software world as Map.
netdevphoenix 1y ago
Why do programmers have so little imagination when it comes to names? It should almost never be the case that project names conflict
- myaccountonhn 1y ago
  Ask Google, this project predates the LLM.
  - saretup 1y ago
    Too small for Google to care about.
    - rapnie 1y ago
      Large tech molochs don't care about any name, it seems. Their power and weight makes the name point to them. Seek on "Amazon" and find that, oh the 7th Wonder of Nature the "Amazon rainforest" is ranked second after some random Big Tech company run by a guy named Jeff. The "lungs of the earth" vs. cheap package delivery and AWS dashboards.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        I mean, yeah. What percentage of searches for "Amazon" in today's world do you think is going to not be about acquiring cheap shit very quickly? I would expect the tech company to be a better answer than most when someone searches for Amazon. Searching for "the amazon" gives the expected results as that's how it is more commonly referred. So it does seems like your search query as performed was just a bad search
        immibis 1y ago
        I bet it would be a few percent less and the world would be a fraction of a percent better if the first result was the rainforest. I wonder how much they pay Google for the top spot.
agiacalone 1y ago
I've had a Gemini Capsule (what Gemini calls a 'website/blog' since about 2021. It gets very little traffic, but it's fun to have. Browsing the smallweb is nice in the evenings when I want a high signal-to-noise ratio of interesting content.
ecliptik 1y ago
From what I remember about the name, it's derived from NASA space programs. Where Gopher is Mercury, Web is Apollo and Gemini is in between. Gemini is a new internet protocol which: - Is heavier than gopher - Is lighter than the web - Will not replace either - Strives for maximum power to weight ratio - Takes user privacy very seriously
- throwaway894345 1y ago
  I wonder how discovery and search work if it’s just a bunch of linked documents? Do search engines exist outside of Gemini and link into it?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - NoGravitas 1y ago
    There are several search engines of Geminispace, running as Gemini servers. There are also a number of feed aggregators that are widely used.
    - agiacalone 1y ago
      Also, part of the idea is discovery through linked high-quality sites. Like the webrings of the 1990s. You find a capsule you like and discover others through that person's links.
  - Jtsummers 1y ago
    The protocol supports query strings so the server can generate content based on the string, which can be used for an in-Gemini Gemini search engine. It doesn't have to be all static content. People could also build out a directory (like the now defunct DMOZ and similar directories for the Web).
- IshKebab 1y ago
  No images is a bit of a deal-breaker for almost everyone I would have thought.
karmakaze 1y ago
If this is being developed, it should have a more modern description. Comparing it to Gopher is fine as a historical point, but comparing it to http/html is more useful today. I read the faq for geeks and didn't learn much: > 1.1.1 The dense, jargony answer for geeks in a hurry > Gemini is an application-level client-server internet protocol for the distribution of arbitrary files, with some special consideration for serving a lightweight hypertext format which facilitates linking between hosted files. Both the protocol and the format are deliberately limited in capabilities and scope, and the protocol is technically conservative, being built on mature, standardised, familiar, "off-the-shelf" technologies like URIs, MIME media types and TLS. Simplicity and finite scope are very intentional design decisions motivated by placing a high priority on user autonomy, user privacy, ease of implementation in diverse computing environments, and defensive non-extensibility. In short, it is something like a radically stripped down web stack. See section 4 of this FAQ document for questions relating to the design of Gemini. Annoyed that for a system about plain text links, there's no link to "section 4". The transport sounds like http without saying so. It doesn't go into why it doesn't use http. I'd probably be fine with HTTP and Markdown + image/video links. Maybe the Gemini document capabilities/scope is better but they're not described. Edit: they are in "4.1.2"[0] Be warned, there's still a lot of beating-around-the-bush. > 4.1.2 I'm familiar with HTTP and HTML. How is Gemini different? [0] https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#412-im-familiar-with-http-and-html-how-is-gemini-different https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#412-im-familiar-with... Edit 2: Seems opinionated in many stupid-by-todays-needs ways. It feels like text-web made by some group of deniers.
- jadbox 1y ago
  Ya, I still don't understand how this works at a high level. Does anyone actually understand how it works?
  - NoboruWataya 1y ago
    Given the amount of servers and clients people have written for it[0] I'd say there are definitely people out there who understand how it works. What don't you get exactly? 0: https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
pianoben 1y ago
Gemini was so much fun during lockdown - I loved the distraction of a new simple protocol, and the challenge of writing a gui client for it. Can't say I'm surprised that it hasn't taken the world by storm, but it's still a cozy part of the Internet.
- ramon156 1y ago
  I completely missed out on this :'(
  - corndoge 1y ago
    No doubt you were doing a myriad of other things that were worthwhile to you at the time.
denysvitali 1y ago
Not the Gemini I was hoping to see in the front page today :D
TuringTest 1y ago
Honest question, how do you discover interesting content over this protocol? Is there people building the equivalent to web directories and web rings? Or search engines? What are the cultural expectations on navigating other people's published resources?
- ecliptik 1y ago
  There are search engines, directories and feed aggregators [1]. Best means of discovery is like the original web, you surf it, bouncing from capsule to capsule finding what you like. 1. https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini?tab=readme-ov-file#services https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini?tab=readme-ov-file...
dexwiz 1y ago
I looked at this a few years ago and it seemed to be a graveyard of toy implementations and personal blogs.
- Jotalea 1y ago
  Isn't that what it's meant to be?
RealCodingOtaku 1y ago
I have got only two annoyance on Gemini, lack of inline links and _font styling_, and they are by design (https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#44-questions-about-textgemini https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#44-questions-about-t...) It's fine for something like HN, but I heavily rely on named links and emphasis on all my blogs and is a dealbreaker.
- cfiggers 1y ago
  Same here. Those are my gripes exactly.
- mattlondon 1y ago
  Yeah they missed an opportunity to more fully support something more like markdown that offered in-line links and basic text formatting. Missing tables is also quite the deal breaker for a bunch of things. But yeah it seems like these lack of features is a willful and highly-opinionated approach to what the author of the protocol wants to take a stance on (their excuse is ease of implementation for clients, but I think it is a more of a deliberate choice). That's fine. It's their protocol and they can do what they want with it, but I think they missed an opportunity for it to take off. Various people since have suggested we just settle on HTML 4 (with no scripting) and we'd be way better off and I agree.
  - jay_kyburz 1y ago
    And CSS from the client only!
  - prmoustache 1y ago
    The thing is, while I agree we could just make decent and frugal websites, gemini not being based on html is a feature. It allows us separate both worlds. When I open lagrange (a gemini client) and click on a gemini link from any gemini capsule (site), I am confident it will open something similar. If I am opening a website, even a good frugal one made in HTML without js and click on an https link, I can't be sure if that won't send me to a page full of ads, tracking and heavy javascript with an embedded crypto miner. You often find some http/https links on gemini capsules, but most clients will render the link in a different color so you kbow what to expect when clicking on a web link.
ChrisArchitect 1y ago
Recently: Six Years of Gemini https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143
myaccountonhn 1y ago
I'd love a minimal protocol like this that was also somehow scraping resistant.
graypegg 1y ago
I really enjoyed messing around with Gemini a while ago! But after the "messing around" stage with the protocol itself, the restrictions inherent to gemtext sapped my excitement around it. It's a mark up language squarely focused on those that write text, but arduous to use if you want to share things you've illustrated, which is most of what I share online that isn't tech related. There's of course the argument that inline images/a spec'd way to expose an image directory listing with thumbnails/etc would only serve to distract or exploit you... but that also ignores the fact that people make art for your eyeballs too. Text is certainly the first class citizen, where images/music/video are all tied for second class, accessible only by downloading them 1 by 1. That does mean it's perfectly fit for purpose! I wouldn't say it's bad just because I don't get my specific needs met. Someone who's needs are met by Gemini will love it.
- 1313ed01 1y ago
  There are Gemini clients that can inline images, so visitors to a site could decide to enable that if they wanted to see for instance a list of thumbnails.
  - rzzzt 1y ago
    Are clients permitted/expected/tolerated to run off and fetch the contents of image links for inline display, once a page containing such links is retrieved?
    - 1313ed01 1y ago
      They are not supposed to do that, but some clients have an option to enable it anyway. There are also clients that make a second request to ask for a favicon. In the spirit of the protocol the "icon" is just a UTF-8 symbol, but that behaviour is still controversial.
    - zzo38computer 1y ago
      Only if the page is inside of a ZIP archive stored on the local computer and only if the link is to a picture within the same ZIP archive. (However, it would be good to have an option to disable inline display even in that case.)
debo_ 1y ago
My main blog is now an "anonymous" gemlog. I use the kineto http proxy to provide a website version as well. I wrote a little deploy script that scrapes my posts and creates an atom XML feed (static doc) that kineto serves for those few people who want to stay up-to-date. Once a quarter, I batch up the recent posts and bcc a bunch of folks I like to keep in touch with. Some of them respond. This is what I do in place of social media now; outside of email, Discord and WhatsApp are all I use to keep in touch with folks. I also like to poke around different gemlogs with Lagrange, which is a nice desktop-oriented Gemini client. It's good fun.
- stOneskull 1y ago
  i installed Kristall to try this all out. Seems nice. Should I stick to it or is there a better client you'd recommend?
  - debo_ 1y ago
    I'm not really up to date on the client front at the moment. I've just used Lagrange since the beginning and it hasn't failed me yet!
aeternum 1y ago
Too many things are named Gemini
- Otternonsenz 1y ago
  To be fair, I believe this protocol existed before Google’s thing, if I remember right.
billyhoffman 1y ago
I built and run a search engine and a "Wayback Machine" for Gemini: gemini://kennedy.gemi.dev There are ~4K hosts and ~1M documents/images/files which make for nice playground with experimenting with crawlers, indexers, and more. Its a nice hobby. Lots of primarily static sites, and CGI is used to add some interactivity: gemini://gemi.dev/cgi-bin/moon.py
dang 1y ago
Related (and a little hard to sift apart from you-know-what): Gemini (2023) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45238536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45238536 - Sept 2025 (46 comments) Six Years of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 - July 2025 (166 comments) The Gemini protocol as seen by cURL's creator - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43054583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43054583 - Feb 2025 (6 comments) Ask HN: Are you using a Gemini browser? Would you follow a link if posted on HN? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491928 - Sept 2024 (5 comments) The Gemini protocol seen by this HTTP client person - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 - May 2023 (107 comments) Bye, Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37049064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37049064 - Aug 2023 (159 comments) Show HN: Gemini web client in 100 lines of C - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36786239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36786239 - July 2023 (45 comments) The Gemini protocol seen by this HTTP client person - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 - May 2023 (107 comments) What the eff Is Gemini? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34392811 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34392811 - Jan 2023 (92 comments) On the Shortcomings of Gemini Protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31560509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31560509 - May 2022 (46 comments) Lagrange Pre-Release – A Gemini client that also supports Gopher and Finger - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30998033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30998033 - April 2022 (30 comments) Offpunk 1.0: Offline Gemini/Gopher/Web Browsing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669799 - March 2022 (17 comments) Gemini is a new internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30667545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30667545 - March 2022 (72 comments) Gemini is a little gem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 - Jan 2022 (122 comments) Gemini is Solutionism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 - Jan 2022 (218 comments) Lagrange: A desktop GUI client for Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 - Nov 2021 (90 comments) Gemini: The Misaligned Incentives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 - Sept 2021 (84 comments) What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 - Sept 2021 (208 comments) Gemini's "uselessness" is its killer feature - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 - June 2021 (193 comments) Why Gemini is not my favorite internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480324 - June 2021 (1 comment) Gemini Space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 - April 2021 (27 comments) Agate, a simple Gemini server written in Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 - March 2021 (34 comments) Beyond the Web: Gopher, Gemini, and the Rise of the Small Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26359454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26359454 - March 2021 (5 comments) gemini:// space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 - Feb 2021 (170 comments) The Tragedy of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 - Jan 2021 (28 comments) Hacker News over Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 - Nov 2020 (21 comments) Show HN: Taurus – A Concurrent Gemini Server - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25045130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25045130 - Nov 2020 (5 comments) A Gopher View of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 - Nov 2020 (9 comments) A look at the Gemini protocol: a brutally simple alternative to the web - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 - July 2020 (347 comments) Castor: A browser for the small internet (Gemini, Gopher, Finger) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 - May 2020 (75 comments) Gemini – A new, collaboratively designed internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 - May 2020 (62 comments) --- Bonus: First Gemini AI thread looks to have been: DeepMind's new Gemini AI will combine LLMs with techniques from AlphaGo - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36495892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36495892 - June 2023 (6 comments) ... and the first mammoth one looks to have been: Gemini AI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38544729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38544729 - Dec 2023 (1602 comments)
astrange 1y ago
> Project Gemini I have a theory that the idea you'd call your project "Project X" comes from TV shows. We work with project codenames and we don't call anything Project X. We just call it X. It feels like adding the word "Project" is something a screenwriter would do to make the dialogue clearer.
- nine_k 1y ago
  I would say that it comes from the military, where projects are given codenames that try hard to be opaque random monikers, and spill no beans about the nature of the project. The Manhattan Project predates mass TV, and most of it did not happen on Manhattan.
  - astrange 1y ago
    I don't mean codenames. I mean literally saying the word "project". It's like meeting a friend and saying "hello my friend I've known for the last 20 years".
    - nine_k 1y ago
      Compare: "We are working on Project Paperclip" and "We are working on a paperclip". I suppose the former implies that what you're working on is not a literal paperclip (but a secret operation to snatch scientists). So "Project Gemini" is not about, say, he constellation.
      - floren 1y ago
        With modern two-random-word codenames we tended to just say things like "I'm working on Crystal Banana all next week" (Crystal Banana was a local joke codename where I worked)
      - astrange 1y ago
        We would say "We're working on Paperclip."
  - Y_Y 1y ago
afisxisto 1y ago
I created one of the first social networks for it. Still running: https://martinrue.com/station https://martinrue.com/station
mmaunder 1y ago
Read the 100 word intro and still don't know what this is. Left.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  It's an alternative to HTTP and HTML (primarily). With the protocol sitting, in terms of complexity, somewhere around the early HTTP/1 protocol and gopher, and the geminitext format being suited for a variety of displays and more text oriented rather than for interactive or multimedia use.
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    And its simple implementation (client and server) comes from the simple protocol that doesn't seem to need much code to implement. The content seems to be in something similar to Markdown but fewer features. So if one wanted one could achieve the same with simple HTML over HTTP. My guess this is also a community thing.
    - vbezhenar 1y ago
      I'm not sure that something like HTTP 1.1 is hard to implement. There are miriads of HTTP servers and clients. It has its quirks, for sure, but you can code basic implementation pretty easily. Now rendering HTML is completely another level of difficulty. If you ask me, I'd suggest to use Markdown instead of HTML for "simple web", but keep HTTP/1.1. Rendering Markdown is relatively simple and it's rich enough for a lot of document-based websites. As for "web apps": use webassembly as underlying execution engine, but build something new for rendering, not coupled with any markup languages. Just provide canvas to draw and efficient API to implement draw operations. Application developers will use frameworks and frameworks prefer to draw everything themselves anyway. I think that kind of "web app engine" would be possible to implement with limited development resources, unlike modern web browser.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        > Just provide canvas to draw and efficient API to implement draw operations. Application developers will use frameworks and frameworks prefer to draw everything themselves anyway. This is terrible for accessibility, though.
barbazoo 1y ago
Unrelated but I went to the linked website, then a while later to Youtube and now I'm getting videos recommended about the Gemini protocol that I have never heard of before today. I'm on Arc and use uBlock Origin Lite, NextDNS, if I had searched I would have used Kagi. How do they (Google) know? EDIT: I'm not implying that the gemini project is doing anything wrong here
- meowkit 1y ago
  The prediction algorithms are so good that indirect behaviors and data can be informative. You might also be profiled by Google and bucketed into a group of similar people who leak their data. They also went to this website and their YT recommendations became a signal to inform your own. Not claiming any certainty here just possible ideas.
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    Tin foil hat comes off then for now, thank you :)
- cfiggers 1y ago
  They aren't necessarily tracking you personally. Gemini Protocol hitting the front page of HN means a spike in interest generally, which the YouTube algorithm could be reacting to in aggregate.
enbywithunix 1y ago
I rather like Gemini. I have several presences on the protocol, as well as a hefty list of gemlogs I follow. The somewhat slow and niche nature of this corner of the internet has meant that I come and go, rather than using it daily (like I do with the web); but it always feels sort of cozy and welcoming when I do eventually return.
rattan12138 1y ago
Gemini's simplicity is refreshing! It feels like a cozy corner of the internet focused purely on words and ideas. Kinda perfect for offline reading sessions, almost like finding a quiet spot to when bored. Definitely not for sharing my doodles, but I get why some folks love this minimalist vibe. Exploring random capsules through Lagrange is oddly relaxing.
RagnarD 1y ago
Why provide yet another overload for "Gemini" rather than thinking of something either novel or not in common current usage in a totally different context?
- _heimdall 1y ago
  This project started in 2019.
throwaway81523 1y ago
I feel like to be in the really proper spirit, the software for this should be written in Forth, sort of like CollapseOS.
userbinator 1y ago
Maybe this is just me showing my age, but I don't understand why reinvent everything when you could just go back to something like HTML 2.0 or even 3.2 with some minor changes. I probably hate what happened with the "modern web" as much as the Gemini developers, but going full NIH is unlikely to be a good solution when there's an existing "unmodern web" to develop for, and as a bonus, can be experienced even with a modern browser. Never underestimate interoperability.
- tpoacher 1y ago
  Interesting outro. Interoperability is presumably one very big reason for this protocol. As for why, all I can say is, download Lagrange, go to gemini://bleyble.com/cgi-bin/random, and see for yourself. It's one thing hearing about it and a completely different experience browsing the geminispace.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    The different experience is largely thanks to different content, not different protocol. The protocol just serves a gatekeeping role to keep the community small enough.
    - tpoacher 1y ago
      That's true to some extent, but it's also true that the side-effect of the protocol is that it results in a very different community. It's a bit like saying that the camping experience has nothing to do with not having access to electricity. Well, true but also not true.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        I think that the specifics of the protocol don't actually matter all that much. What matters is that it's sufficiently unappealing to filter out most potential users; you genuinely have to feel strongly about the state of the web etc to spend a lot of time on Gemini. In that sense, I suspect that OP is right and they could have achieved the same on top of, say, HTML 2 (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1866 https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1866).
fenomas 1y ago
I found it hard to extract any signal from this extremely chatty site. But AFAICT the tagline "basically modernized Gopher" wouldn't be too far off the mark?
Shugyousha 1y ago
I like the idea of Gemini and was inspired to write a script to turn my blog posts written in markdown to gemtext. Sadly I still haven't finished that script ... My main issue with the protocol is that it is requiring creating a new TLS connection for every request. That is indeed a simple approach but I argue that the extra round trip times added due to this are not worth the trade-off for the simplicity gained in this case Coming up with a simple way to reuse a connection would reduce the round trips needed drastically. If we put our heads together, I feel like we could come up with a way to do that, that doesn't overly complicate the protocol ...
cantalopes 1y ago
I have read and liked the philosophy, no inline images, no tracking, nondistraction, no extensioms, security, etc. so i went and downloaded the first android gemini browser from the links called "buran". Then i surfee around links people posted in here. Came upon a site gemini://hellomouse.net First thing i see: an inline image that is against very principles of gemini and shouldn't be allowed What am i doing wrong?
- troupo 1y ago
  You're doing nothing wrong. Even gemini users realise that inline images are good actually.
  - cantalopes 1y ago
    Like "they are good". Whole html with its features is "good", but when i want to use a privacy- first protocol, why the hell would i undermine it with tracking pixels, especially since it noted as the very feature of this protocol
    - troupo 1y ago
      Ah yes. The main feature of images is tracking pixels. And not, you know, images.
    - voxic11 1y ago
      There are plenty of ways to implement images without allowing for tracking pixels. Only allowing images to be served from first party domains would be a simple one.
      - krapp 1y ago
        It would be noisy and would break the page size limit but you could also require that images be included inline as base64 encoded strings.
        deleted 1y ago
yason 1y ago
As someone who got onto the web in HTML 2.0 era I can feel the appeal of Gemini, although I disagree about their attitude towards static inline images. In day-to-day world that's what separated HTML from the earlier text-based hypertext systems that you could run over a terminal connection (or in a window, like AmigaGuide). You could actually have real documents from the internet, on your own screen, without loading up a word processor. White pages, black text in different sizes, blue links, and color images! Cool! Obviously, Gemini is a niche that's as futile as it can be. It's like going back to living without a running water because once there was a peaceful village, then first came running water, then electricity, and then the whole village was rebuilt into a big city, and the old village is now gone. But the logic goes: if they didn't get running water in the first place, the people who wanted electricity too wouldn't have moved in, and the city wouldn't have been built. So, reverting back to living without running water now will, if it doesn't maybe demolish the city, at least remind me of the good old days. The problem with the current web is that before, maybe just 10 years ago, you could use a good browser to remove and disable all the user-hostile cruft aimed at you on websites, and maybe browse pages in relative peace. Now the fight has moved to removing and disabling all the user-hostile cruft aimed at you in the browser, that intend to remove the tools you could use to fight the websites, and given the de-facto monopoly of Google that's just incredibly sad. What's more demoralising is that it's just one slice in the big trend to erode the concept of ownership alltogether. It's a matter of time until you can no longer even try to own your browsing experience. The web will have changed from a place where people could freely download and view other people's documents over HTTP to people using one-way thin-clients with attestation so that the producer can guarantee their website is interpreted correctly as intended. Good luck writing your own browser that does the right thing for you, it won't be served data off the web unless it can prove the client is unmodified and signed by Microsoft. That is, of course, assuming you could still write code yourself for your computer and actually run it on your own without asking permission from the vendor. It seems that the 20's answer to what Gemini represents is probably something like asking an AI to load a web page, extract the real contents of the document, possibly with cues from accessibility hints, and reproduce the document as text and still images for viewing.
zoobab 1y ago
HTML is a corrupt standard, remember when W3C agreed with DRM as a 'standard'.
SavaRocks 1y ago
I enjoy the smol web and I really think it's a great place for tech enthusiasts. This is why I created finger://, gemini://, gopher:// and https:// mirrors for by website at sava.rocks links for all protocols: https://sava.rocks https://sava.rocks gemini://sava.rocks gopher://sava.rocks finger://sava.rocks/sava
el3ctron 1y ago
as a recent gemini user i like that clean looks, amazing fast page loading if compares with http web, low stimulation feedback, that makes me feel more concentrated and allow me to be less distracted while reading contents. There is a good browser options, graphical but that lovely terminal and hyper-fast ones. In a world full of marketing/publishers psychopaths, Gemini protocol is a hope and part of human resistance.
Godisone48 1y ago
sun is not doing Allah is doing to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger

Project Gemini

327 points by andsoitis 1y ago

rappatic 1y ago

Why is everything named Gemini these days?

adocomplete 1y ago
yeah seems like an odd choice for a new project.
- mpalmer 1y ago
  The project is six years old
  - adocomplete 1y ago
    I stand corrected.
- jasonjmcghee 1y ago
  This long predates Google LLMs
mock-possum 1y ago
Yeah it seems like everybody and their brother is naming things Gemini, is there a dual meaning I’m not aware of?
- incognito124 1y ago
  Nice pair of Gemini puns
arnaudsm 1y ago
The Gemini protocol started in 2019, before Google's Gemini in 2023. It's proably a popular word for tech workers fans of the american space race.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  Or for people who want to evoke notions of duality/parallels/twinship.
didi_bear 1y ago
Because Copilot was already taken
throitallaway 1y ago
Google renamed Bard to Gemini last year. Side note: Google's "Gemini" product name is way overloaded. They have like 6 different things that you can buy/use that are named that.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Sounds like IBM’s “Watson”
chankstein38 1y ago
Right? I clicked in here thinking it meant Google's Gemini but of course not just another uncreative name that clutters search results. (I'm not sure if Google's Gemini or Project Gemini is the uncreative clutter, but either way.)

stbenjam 1y ago

So Gopher?

billfor 1y ago
gopher over http: Seems like firefox et al removed support for it years ago.
- stbenjam 1y ago
  Gemini's native protocol isn't HTTP, they invented their own. I don't really see what this does you couldn't do with simple HTML pages (or Gopher 35 years ago).
  - jerf 1y ago
    Nothing. But that's not the point.
  - josh-sematic 1y ago
    I think some of the point is what you can’t do with it rather than what you can. It’s an intentionally very restrictive protocol.
  - RiverCrochet 1y ago
    Even simple HTML pages may require Javascript and want to run code on your computer or phone. You need knowledge of the document, knowledge of its author, or constant keepup and awareness of browser settings (e.g. did some update re-enable Javascript) to mitigate this. A .gmi is 100% certain not to need any extra code capable of potential unwanted external communications, not now and not in the future. Also .gmi is extremely simple and can be rendered very simply (and thus more securely) because it can be processed nearly statelessly line by line, without need of a rendering tree or document model.
- djaboss 1y ago
  ... which looks even more stupid when you can force quite a number of browsers to get you something through gopher if you just pretend it's http on port 70. of course you have to self interpret the result, but gophermaps are quite readable. :)

bnchrch 1y ago

If we maintain this trajectory Gemini is going to have as many dual meanings in the software world as Map.

netdevphoenix 1y ago

Why do programmers have so little imagination when it comes to names? It should almost never be the case that project names conflict

myaccountonhn 1y ago
Ask Google, this project predates the LLM.
- saretup 1y ago
  Too small for Google to care about.
  - rapnie 1y ago
    Large tech molochs don't care about any name, it seems. Their power and weight makes the name point to them. Seek on "Amazon" and find that, oh the 7th Wonder of Nature the "Amazon rainforest" is ranked second after some random Big Tech company run by a guy named Jeff. The "lungs of the earth" vs. cheap package delivery and AWS dashboards.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      I mean, yeah. What percentage of searches for "Amazon" in today's world do you think is going to not be about acquiring cheap shit very quickly? I would expect the tech company to be a better answer than most when someone searches for Amazon. Searching for "the amazon" gives the expected results as that's how it is more commonly referred. So it does seems like your search query as performed was just a bad search
      - immibis 1y ago
        I bet it would be a few percent less and the world would be a fraction of a percent better if the first result was the rainforest. I wonder how much they pay Google for the top spot.

agiacalone 1y ago

I've had a Gemini Capsule (what Gemini calls a 'website/blog' since about 2021. It gets very little traffic, but it's fun to have. Browsing the smallweb is nice in the evenings when I want a high signal-to-noise ratio of interesting content.

ecliptik 1y ago

From what I remember about the name, it's derived from NASA space programs. Where Gopher is Mercury, Web is Apollo and Gemini is in between. Gemini is a new internet protocol which: - Is heavier than gopher - Is lighter than the web - Will not replace either - Strives for maximum power to weight ratio - Takes user privacy very seriously

throwaway894345 1y ago
I wonder how discovery and search work if it’s just a bunch of linked documents? Do search engines exist outside of Gemini and link into it?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  There are several search engines of Geminispace, running as Gemini servers. There are also a number of feed aggregators that are widely used.
  - agiacalone 1y ago
    Also, part of the idea is discovery through linked high-quality sites. Like the webrings of the 1990s. You find a capsule you like and discover others through that person's links.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  The protocol supports query strings so the server can generate content based on the string, which can be used for an in-Gemini Gemini search engine. It doesn't have to be all static content. People could also build out a directory (like the now defunct DMOZ and similar directories for the Web).
IshKebab 1y ago
No images is a bit of a deal-breaker for almost everyone I would have thought.

karmakaze 1y ago

If this is being developed, it should have a more modern description. Comparing it to Gopher is fine as a historical point, but comparing it to http/html is more useful today. I read the faq for geeks and didn't learn much: > 1.1.1 The dense, jargony answer for geeks in a hurry > Gemini is an application-level client-server internet protocol for the distribution of arbitrary files, with some special consideration for serving a lightweight hypertext format which facilitates linking between hosted files. Both the protocol and the format are deliberately limited in capabilities and scope, and the protocol is technically conservative, being built on mature, standardised, familiar, "off-the-shelf" technologies like URIs, MIME media types and TLS. Simplicity and finite scope are very intentional design decisions motivated by placing a high priority on user autonomy, user privacy, ease of implementation in diverse computing environments, and defensive non-extensibility. In short, it is something like a radically stripped down web stack. See section 4 of this FAQ document for questions relating to the design of Gemini. Annoyed that for a system about plain text links, there's no link to "section 4". The transport sounds like http without saying so. It doesn't go into why it doesn't use http. I'd probably be fine with HTTP and Markdown + image/video links. Maybe the Gemini document capabilities/scope is better but they're not described. Edit: they are in "4.1.2"[0] Be warned, there's still a lot of beating-around-the-bush. > 4.1.2 I'm familiar with HTTP and HTML. How is Gemini different? [0] https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#412-im-familiar-with-http-and-html-how-is-gemini-different https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#412-im-familiar-with... Edit 2: Seems opinionated in many stupid-by-todays-needs ways. It feels like text-web made by some group of deniers.

jadbox 1y ago
Ya, I still don't understand how this works at a high level. Does anyone actually understand how it works?
- NoboruWataya 1y ago
  Given the amount of servers and clients people have written for it[0] I'd say there are definitely people out there who understand how it works. What don't you get exactly? 0: https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini

pianoben 1y ago

Gemini was so much fun during lockdown - I loved the distraction of a new simple protocol, and the challenge of writing a gui client for it. Can't say I'm surprised that it hasn't taken the world by storm, but it's still a cozy part of the Internet.

ramon156 1y ago
I completely missed out on this :'(
- corndoge 1y ago
  No doubt you were doing a myriad of other things that were worthwhile to you at the time.

denysvitali 1y ago

Not the Gemini I was hoping to see in the front page today :D

TuringTest 1y ago

Honest question, how do you discover interesting content over this protocol? Is there people building the equivalent to web directories and web rings? Or search engines? What are the cultural expectations on navigating other people's published resources?

ecliptik 1y ago
There are search engines, directories and feed aggregators [1]. Best means of discovery is like the original web, you surf it, bouncing from capsule to capsule finding what you like. 1. https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini?tab=readme-ov-file#services https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini?tab=readme-ov-file...

dexwiz 1y ago

I looked at this a few years ago and it seemed to be a graveyard of toy implementations and personal blogs.

Jotalea 1y ago
Isn't that what it's meant to be?

RealCodingOtaku 1y ago

I have got only two annoyance on Gemini, lack of inline links and _font styling_, and they are by design (https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#44-questions-about-textgemini https://geminiprotocol.net/docs/faq.gmi#44-questions-about-t...) It's fine for something like HN, but I heavily rely on named links and emphasis on all my blogs and is a dealbreaker.

cfiggers 1y ago
Same here. Those are my gripes exactly.
mattlondon 1y ago
Yeah they missed an opportunity to more fully support something more like markdown that offered in-line links and basic text formatting. Missing tables is also quite the deal breaker for a bunch of things. But yeah it seems like these lack of features is a willful and highly-opinionated approach to what the author of the protocol wants to take a stance on (their excuse is ease of implementation for clients, but I think it is a more of a deliberate choice). That's fine. It's their protocol and they can do what they want with it, but I think they missed an opportunity for it to take off. Various people since have suggested we just settle on HTML 4 (with no scripting) and we'd be way better off and I agree.
- jay_kyburz 1y ago
  And CSS from the client only!
- prmoustache 1y ago
  The thing is, while I agree we could just make decent and frugal websites, gemini not being based on html is a feature. It allows us separate both worlds. When I open lagrange (a gemini client) and click on a gemini link from any gemini capsule (site), I am confident it will open something similar. If I am opening a website, even a good frugal one made in HTML without js and click on an https link, I can't be sure if that won't send me to a page full of ads, tracking and heavy javascript with an embedded crypto miner. You often find some http/https links on gemini capsules, but most clients will render the link in a different color so you kbow what to expect when clicking on a web link.

ChrisArchitect 1y ago

Recently: Six Years of Gemini https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143

myaccountonhn 1y ago

I'd love a minimal protocol like this that was also somehow scraping resistant.

graypegg 1y ago

I really enjoyed messing around with Gemini a while ago! But after the "messing around" stage with the protocol itself, the restrictions inherent to gemtext sapped my excitement around it. It's a mark up language squarely focused on those that write text, but arduous to use if you want to share things you've illustrated, which is most of what I share online that isn't tech related. There's of course the argument that inline images/a spec'd way to expose an image directory listing with thumbnails/etc would only serve to distract or exploit you... but that also ignores the fact that people make art for your eyeballs too. Text is certainly the first class citizen, where images/music/video are all tied for second class, accessible only by downloading them 1 by 1. That does mean it's perfectly fit for purpose! I wouldn't say it's bad just because I don't get my specific needs met. Someone who's needs are met by Gemini will love it.

1313ed01 1y ago
There are Gemini clients that can inline images, so visitors to a site could decide to enable that if they wanted to see for instance a list of thumbnails.
- rzzzt 1y ago
  Are clients permitted/expected/tolerated to run off and fetch the contents of image links for inline display, once a page containing such links is retrieved?
  - 1313ed01 1y ago
    They are not supposed to do that, but some clients have an option to enable it anyway. There are also clients that make a second request to ask for a favicon. In the spirit of the protocol the "icon" is just a UTF-8 symbol, but that behaviour is still controversial.
  - zzo38computer 1y ago
    Only if the page is inside of a ZIP archive stored on the local computer and only if the link is to a picture within the same ZIP archive. (However, it would be good to have an option to disable inline display even in that case.)

debo_ 1y ago

My main blog is now an "anonymous" gemlog. I use the kineto http proxy to provide a website version as well. I wrote a little deploy script that scrapes my posts and creates an atom XML feed (static doc) that kineto serves for those few people who want to stay up-to-date. Once a quarter, I batch up the recent posts and bcc a bunch of folks I like to keep in touch with. Some of them respond. This is what I do in place of social media now; outside of email, Discord and WhatsApp are all I use to keep in touch with folks. I also like to poke around different gemlogs with Lagrange, which is a nice desktop-oriented Gemini client. It's good fun.

stOneskull 1y ago
i installed Kristall to try this all out. Seems nice. Should I stick to it or is there a better client you'd recommend?
- debo_ 1y ago
  I'm not really up to date on the client front at the moment. I've just used Lagrange since the beginning and it hasn't failed me yet!

aeternum 1y ago

Too many things are named Gemini

Otternonsenz 1y ago
To be fair, I believe this protocol existed before Google’s thing, if I remember right.

billyhoffman 1y ago

I built and run a search engine and a "Wayback Machine" for Gemini: gemini://kennedy.gemi.dev There are ~4K hosts and ~1M documents/images/files which make for nice playground with experimenting with crawlers, indexers, and more. Its a nice hobby. Lots of primarily static sites, and CGI is used to add some interactivity: gemini://gemi.dev/cgi-bin/moon.py

dang 1y ago

Related (and a little hard to sift apart from you-know-what): Gemini (2023) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45238536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45238536 - Sept 2025 (46 comments) Six Years of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44578143 - July 2025 (166 comments) The Gemini protocol as seen by cURL's creator - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43054583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43054583 - Feb 2025 (6 comments) Ask HN: Are you using a Gemini browser? Would you follow a link if posted on HN? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491928 - Sept 2024 (5 comments) The Gemini protocol seen by this HTTP client person - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 - May 2023 (107 comments) Bye, Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37049064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37049064 - Aug 2023 (159 comments) Show HN: Gemini web client in 100 lines of C - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36786239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36786239 - July 2023 (45 comments) The Gemini protocol seen by this HTTP client person - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104533 - May 2023 (107 comments) What the eff Is Gemini? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34392811 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34392811 - Jan 2023 (92 comments) On the Shortcomings of Gemini Protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31560509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31560509 - May 2022 (46 comments) Lagrange Pre-Release – A Gemini client that also supports Gopher and Finger - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30998033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30998033 - April 2022 (30 comments) Offpunk 1.0: Offline Gemini/Gopher/Web Browsing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669799 - March 2022 (17 comments) Gemini is a new internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30667545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30667545 - March 2022 (72 comments) Gemini is a little gem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 - Jan 2022 (122 comments) Gemini is Solutionism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 - Jan 2022 (218 comments) Lagrange: A desktop GUI client for Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 - Nov 2021 (90 comments) Gemini: The Misaligned Incentives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 - Sept 2021 (84 comments) What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 - Sept 2021 (208 comments) Gemini's "uselessness" is its killer feature - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 - June 2021 (193 comments) Why Gemini is not my favorite internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480324 - June 2021 (1 comment) Gemini Space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 - April 2021 (27 comments) Agate, a simple Gemini server written in Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 - March 2021 (34 comments) Beyond the Web: Gopher, Gemini, and the Rise of the Small Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26359454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26359454 - March 2021 (5 comments) gemini:// space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 - Feb 2021 (170 comments) The Tragedy of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 - Jan 2021 (28 comments) Hacker News over Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 - Nov 2020 (21 comments) Show HN: Taurus – A Concurrent Gemini Server - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25045130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25045130 - Nov 2020 (5 comments) A Gopher View of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 - Nov 2020 (9 comments) A look at the Gemini protocol: a brutally simple alternative to the web - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 - July 2020 (347 comments) Castor: A browser for the small internet (Gemini, Gopher, Finger) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 - May 2020 (75 comments) Gemini – A new, collaboratively designed internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 - May 2020 (62 comments) --- Bonus: First Gemini AI thread looks to have been: DeepMind's new Gemini AI will combine LLMs with techniques from AlphaGo - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36495892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36495892 - June 2023 (6 comments) ... and the first mammoth one looks to have been: Gemini AI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38544729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38544729 - Dec 2023 (1602 comments)

astrange 1y ago

> Project Gemini I have a theory that the idea you'd call your project "Project X" comes from TV shows. We work with project codenames and we don't call anything Project X. We just call it X. It feels like adding the word "Project" is something a screenwriter would do to make the dialogue clearer.

nine_k 1y ago
I would say that it comes from the military, where projects are given codenames that try hard to be opaque random monikers, and spill no beans about the nature of the project. The Manhattan Project predates mass TV, and most of it did not happen on Manhattan.
- astrange 1y ago
  I don't mean codenames. I mean literally saying the word "project". It's like meeting a friend and saying "hello my friend I've known for the last 20 years".
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Compare: "We are working on Project Paperclip" and "We are working on a paperclip". I suppose the former implies that what you're working on is not a literal paperclip (but a secret operation to snatch scientists). So "Project Gemini" is not about, say, he constellation.
    - floren 1y ago
      With modern two-random-word codenames we tended to just say things like "I'm working on Crystal Banana all next week" (Crystal Banana was a local joke codename where I worked)
    - astrange 1y ago
      We would say "We're working on Paperclip."
- Y_Y 1y ago

afisxisto 1y ago

I created one of the first social networks for it. Still running: https://martinrue.com/station https://martinrue.com/station

mmaunder 1y ago

Read the 100 word intro and still don't know what this is. Left.

Jtsummers 1y ago
It's an alternative to HTTP and HTML (primarily). With the protocol sitting, in terms of complexity, somewhere around the early HTTP/1 protocol and gopher, and the geminitext format being suited for a variety of displays and more text oriented rather than for interactive or multimedia use.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  And its simple implementation (client and server) comes from the simple protocol that doesn't seem to need much code to implement. The content seems to be in something similar to Markdown but fewer features. So if one wanted one could achieve the same with simple HTML over HTTP. My guess this is also a community thing.
  - vbezhenar 1y ago
    I'm not sure that something like HTTP 1.1 is hard to implement. There are miriads of HTTP servers and clients. It has its quirks, for sure, but you can code basic implementation pretty easily. Now rendering HTML is completely another level of difficulty. If you ask me, I'd suggest to use Markdown instead of HTML for "simple web", but keep HTTP/1.1. Rendering Markdown is relatively simple and it's rich enough for a lot of document-based websites. As for "web apps": use webassembly as underlying execution engine, but build something new for rendering, not coupled with any markup languages. Just provide canvas to draw and efficient API to implement draw operations. Application developers will use frameworks and frameworks prefer to draw everything themselves anyway. I think that kind of "web app engine" would be possible to implement with limited development resources, unlike modern web browser.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      > Just provide canvas to draw and efficient API to implement draw operations. Application developers will use frameworks and frameworks prefer to draw everything themselves anyway. This is terrible for accessibility, though.

barbazoo 1y ago

Unrelated but I went to the linked website, then a while later to Youtube and now I'm getting videos recommended about the Gemini protocol that I have never heard of before today. I'm on Arc and use uBlock Origin Lite, NextDNS, if I had searched I would have used Kagi. How do they (Google) know? EDIT: I'm not implying that the gemini project is doing anything wrong here

meowkit 1y ago
The prediction algorithms are so good that indirect behaviors and data can be informative. You might also be profiled by Google and bucketed into a group of similar people who leak their data. They also went to this website and their YT recommendations became a signal to inform your own. Not claiming any certainty here just possible ideas.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  Tin foil hat comes off then for now, thank you :)
cfiggers 1y ago
They aren't necessarily tracking you personally. Gemini Protocol hitting the front page of HN means a spike in interest generally, which the YouTube algorithm could be reacting to in aggregate.

enbywithunix 1y ago

I rather like Gemini. I have several presences on the protocol, as well as a hefty list of gemlogs I follow. The somewhat slow and niche nature of this corner of the internet has meant that I come and go, rather than using it daily (like I do with the web); but it always feels sort of cozy and welcoming when I do eventually return.

rattan12138 1y ago

Gemini's simplicity is refreshing! It feels like a cozy corner of the internet focused purely on words and ideas. Kinda perfect for offline reading sessions, almost like finding a quiet spot to when bored. Definitely not for sharing my doodles, but I get why some folks love this minimalist vibe. Exploring random capsules through Lagrange is oddly relaxing.

RagnarD 1y ago

Why provide yet another overload for "Gemini" rather than thinking of something either novel or not in common current usage in a totally different context?

_heimdall 1y ago
This project started in 2019.

throwaway81523 1y ago

I feel like to be in the really proper spirit, the software for this should be written in Forth, sort of like CollapseOS.

userbinator 1y ago

Maybe this is just me showing my age, but I don't understand why reinvent everything when you could just go back to something like HTML 2.0 or even 3.2 with some minor changes. I probably hate what happened with the "modern web" as much as the Gemini developers, but going full NIH is unlikely to be a good solution when there's an existing "unmodern web" to develop for, and as a bonus, can be experienced even with a modern browser. Never underestimate interoperability.

tpoacher 1y ago
Interesting outro. Interoperability is presumably one very big reason for this protocol. As for why, all I can say is, download Lagrange, go to gemini://bleyble.com/cgi-bin/random, and see for yourself. It's one thing hearing about it and a completely different experience browsing the geminispace.
- int_19h 1y ago
  The different experience is largely thanks to different content, not different protocol. The protocol just serves a gatekeeping role to keep the community small enough.
  - tpoacher 1y ago
    That's true to some extent, but it's also true that the side-effect of the protocol is that it results in a very different community. It's a bit like saying that the camping experience has nothing to do with not having access to electricity. Well, true but also not true.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      I think that the specifics of the protocol don't actually matter all that much. What matters is that it's sufficiently unappealing to filter out most potential users; you genuinely have to feel strongly about the state of the web etc to spend a lot of time on Gemini. In that sense, I suspect that OP is right and they could have achieved the same on top of, say, HTML 2 (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1866 https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1866).

fenomas 1y ago

I found it hard to extract any signal from this extremely chatty site. But AFAICT the tagline "basically modernized Gopher" wouldn't be too far off the mark?

Shugyousha 1y ago

I like the idea of Gemini and was inspired to write a script to turn my blog posts written in markdown to gemtext. Sadly I still haven't finished that script ... My main issue with the protocol is that it is requiring creating a new TLS connection for every request. That is indeed a simple approach but I argue that the extra round trip times added due to this are not worth the trade-off for the simplicity gained in this case Coming up with a simple way to reuse a connection would reduce the round trips needed drastically. If we put our heads together, I feel like we could come up with a way to do that, that doesn't overly complicate the protocol ...

cantalopes 1y ago

I have read and liked the philosophy, no inline images, no tracking, nondistraction, no extensioms, security, etc. so i went and downloaded the first android gemini browser from the links called "buran". Then i surfee around links people posted in here. Came upon a site gemini://hellomouse.net First thing i see: an inline image that is against very principles of gemini and shouldn't be allowed What am i doing wrong?

troupo 1y ago
You're doing nothing wrong. Even gemini users realise that inline images are good actually.
- cantalopes 1y ago
  Like "they are good". Whole html with its features is "good", but when i want to use a privacy- first protocol, why the hell would i undermine it with tracking pixels, especially since it noted as the very feature of this protocol
  - troupo 1y ago
    Ah yes. The main feature of images is tracking pixels. And not, you know, images.
  - voxic11 1y ago
    There are plenty of ways to implement images without allowing for tracking pixels. Only allowing images to be served from first party domains would be a simple one.
    - krapp 1y ago
      It would be noisy and would break the page size limit but you could also require that images be included inline as base64 encoded strings.
      - deleted 1y ago

yason 1y ago

As someone who got onto the web in HTML 2.0 era I can feel the appeal of Gemini, although I disagree about their attitude towards static inline images. In day-to-day world that's what separated HTML from the earlier text-based hypertext systems that you could run over a terminal connection (or in a window, like AmigaGuide). You could actually have real documents from the internet, on your own screen, without loading up a word processor. White pages, black text in different sizes, blue links, and color images! Cool! Obviously, Gemini is a niche that's as futile as it can be. It's like going back to living without a running water because once there was a peaceful village, then first came running water, then electricity, and then the whole village was rebuilt into a big city, and the old village is now gone. But the logic goes: if they didn't get running water in the first place, the people who wanted electricity too wouldn't have moved in, and the city wouldn't have been built. So, reverting back to living without running water now will, if it doesn't maybe demolish the city, at least remind me of the good old days. The problem with the current web is that before, maybe just 10 years ago, you could use a good browser to remove and disable all the user-hostile cruft aimed at you on websites, and maybe browse pages in relative peace. Now the fight has moved to removing and disabling all the user-hostile cruft aimed at you in the browser, that intend to remove the tools you could use to fight the websites, and given the de-facto monopoly of Google that's just incredibly sad. What's more demoralising is that it's just one slice in the big trend to erode the concept of ownership alltogether. It's a matter of time until you can no longer even try to own your browsing experience. The web will have changed from a place where people could freely download and view other people's documents over HTTP to people using one-way thin-clients with attestation so that the producer can guarantee their website is interpreted correctly as intended. Good luck writing your own browser that does the right thing for you, it won't be served data off the web unless it can prove the client is unmodified and signed by Microsoft. That is, of course, assuming you could still write code yourself for your computer and actually run it on your own without asking permission from the vendor. It seems that the 20's answer to what Gemini represents is probably something like asking an AI to load a web page, extract the real contents of the document, possibly with cues from accessibility hints, and reproduce the document as text and still images for viewing.

zoobab 1y ago

HTML is a corrupt standard, remember when W3C agreed with DRM as a 'standard'.

SavaRocks 1y ago

I enjoy the smol web and I really think it's a great place for tech enthusiasts. This is why I created finger://, gemini://, gopher:// and https:// mirrors for by website at sava.rocks links for all protocols: https://sava.rocks https://sava.rocks gemini://sava.rocks gopher://sava.rocks finger://sava.rocks/sava

el3ctron 1y ago

as a recent gemini user i like that clean looks, amazing fast page loading if compares with http web, low stimulation feedback, that makes me feel more concentrated and allow me to be less distracted while reading contents. There is a good browser options, graphical but that lovely terminal and hyper-fast ones. In a world full of marketing/publishers psychopaths, Gemini protocol is a hope and part of human resistance.

Godisone48 1y ago

sun is not doing Allah is doing to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger