25 ms·

Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?

134 points by olivercameron 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago
Forstall has been called "Apple's chief asshole"[0] - he channels Steve Jobs's approach of being a douchebag, but doesn't seem to have acquired the same level of perfectionism as Jobs. 0: http://www.dailytech.com/Apples+chief+Ahole+Forstall+Keeps+Steve+Jobs+Executive+Legacy+Alive/article23003.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Apples+chief+Ahole+Forstall+Keeps+S...
- joe_the_user 14y ago
  Maybe Apple has a "if you take the different parts of Steve Job's management style in isolation, they start to look horrible" problem.
- batista 14y ago
  He also gives me that impression when I see him on Keynotes, one of a power grabbing, back-stabbing kind of guy. Which could or could not be true, I'm talking purely from a "face-reading" standpoint. The exact opposite of that would be Bob Mansfield.
  - bronxbomber92 14y ago
    I've seen each VP (except Mansfield) talk in person and I have gotten a very different impression of Forstall. He was one of the most impressive VPs in my eyes (he talked a lot about his passion for bettering accessibility and making life-altering impacts with iOS).
  - paulschreiber 14y ago
    Fosrtall is the kind of guy who would sell you a used car and hit on your wife.
    - dman 14y ago
      And you know this how?
      - gonzo 14y ago
        because his SO would, um, "flirt with" Forestall for a used car.
contextfree 14y ago
It sounds more like they have a services/big data problem, + maybe a Windows XP-like "good enough" problem (leading to new features and changes being viewed more skeptically)
pkamb 14y ago
> Inside Apple, tension has brewed for years over the [skeuomorphism] issue. Apple iOS SVP Scott Forstall is said to push for skeuomorphic design, while industrial designer Jony Ive and other Apple higher-ups are said to oppose the direction. "You could tell who did the product based on how much glitz was in the UI," says one source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process. http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-softwa...
- nilsbunger 14y ago
  Very interesting. Of course, Steve Jobs was also in favor of skeuomorphic design, so it's not like Forstall is the sole reason I "find my friends" in stitched leather.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    Stranger still, it is said that the stitched leather theme was modeled after the upholstery in Jobs' Gulfstream jet! [0] Both iCal on OS X and Find My Friends on iOS have the same motif. “But before Forstall, it was Steve Jobs who encouraged the skeuomorphic approach, some say. “iCal’s leather-stitching was literally based on a texture in his Gulfstream jet,” says the former senior UI designer. “There was lots of internal email among UI designers at Apple saying this was just embarrassing, just terrible.” [0] http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-softwa...
  - dastbe 14y ago
    That's not skeumorphism; it's a style choice. If I had to simulate ripping the top piece of paper off the notepad in notes to clear it, then that would be skeumorphic design.
    - shinratdr 14y ago
      Can we just make this the auto-reply comment whenever someone mentions skeuomorphism on the internet? I couldn't be more sick of the concept, except when I hear it constantly being used incorrectly. Textures and styles aren't skeuomorphism, skeuomorphism is imitating real-world objects to provide a sense of familiarity in execution. Not a notes app that looks like a notepad, a notes app that FUNCTIONS like a notepad.
stevenleeg 14y ago
Since when has Siri been "an embarrassment for Apple?"
- esolyt 14y ago
  Always. But especially after Google Now.
- weaksauce 14y ago
  That's what I was wondering. It's not perfect, but what it does it does well for me. Setting timers, alarms, etc... all work pretty well.
- timdorr 14y ago
  It's had a similar number of issues, as compared to Maps. The difference is, it didn't replace or introduce a must-have feature in iOS. As a result, it's failures were something users are able to overlook because Siri is still, essentially, a toy feature. It's not key to the phone's operation; heck it's non-obvious that it's even a feature because no where on the interface indicates that it exists (it's a hidden long-press action on the home button). Maps, however, is crucial to most people that use an iPhone. After telephony and web functions, it's probably the next most used feature. So, any failure by it, even if it's slight, is amplified. Yes, you can use Google Maps on the web or another app (MapQuest should really be capitalizing on this opportunity to reclaim some relevance), but it's one of the default icons on the home screen and where most people are going to head first. It would be like the dialer not being able to call certain phone numbers or the text message not working with certain recipients. It's a vital function and has to work. I would say Siri is probably more of a failure than Maps, but because of it's non-essential nature, that feature is able to get away with what Maps can't.
  - TheGateKeeper 14y ago
    > Maps, however, is crucial to most people that use an iPhone Citation please. Nobody I know uses google maps, even when we travel (which is a lot).
denzil_correa 14y ago
Forstall seems to be a "copy" of Jobs. I am not sure if it's a good thing.
X-Istence 14y ago
I don't understand why someone needs to be fired just because they had one or two bad products. Why would you throw away the rest of the knowledge that this person has? Demote them, put them on new projects, place them where they are stronger and have them work on another project, but outright removing someone seems like it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
- blinkingled 14y ago
  Fresh perspectives matter sometimes in product's lifecycle. Working on same stuff for years you run a high chance of developing tunnel vision. If there is a new but capable person with different vision, there is a good chance something new and appealing might come of it. Case in point - Steven Sinofsky and Windows 7. I dont know what other project they can put someone like Scott Forstall on without even indirectly becoming related to OS development at Apple.
- weaksauce 14y ago
  The reason from Jobs: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-05-07/tech/30043798_1_janitor-steve-jobs-excuse http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-05-07/tech/30043798... Makes sense to some extent at a company like apple. Maybe you get two chances but if you don't have the foresight to see how important maps are to people you might not be the best fit for the job.
dantiberian 14y ago
Does Fortune have an interest in creating pageview's by making this Scott Forstall's problem?
martythemaniak 14y ago
Well, I guess the knives are coming out. These kinds of distractions won't help Apple with a pack of hungry companies wanting to take it down.
Fjslfj 14y ago
Actually, it's an Eddy Cue problem.
- czr80 14y ago
  Can you elaborate on why you say that?
  - lazugod 14y ago
    "Eddy Cue is Apple's senior vice president of Internet Software and Services." (from http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/eddy-cue.html http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/eddy-cue.html)
  - Fjslfj 14y ago
    Almost all of the gripes people have with Apple Internet services and software involve Cue's products, not Forstall's. But because Cue doesn't have any interest in the top job, and because of his seniority, he ducks blame every time.
1veteran 14y ago
AAPL is a hardware company. If their devices looked ugly would you buy Apple devices? How important is the way they look on the table or in your hand? Apple has long been an attractive choice for creative professionals. The iPod changed all that. Apple got market share. They got the people who buy PC's. And they got the developers who target the dumbest users. Now we have AppStore. Now we have iPad. The bar is being lowered. Now we have trouble, as everyone else is trying to copy Apple and their silly thirst for control. Apple is not the solution you want for boring non-creative things like fast, accurate data retrieval. Apple is not made for the internet. Nor was Microsoft. They were founded for different things. Desktop metaphor things. They've had to adapt. It can be painful to watch. It can be painful for users.
Bud 14y ago
Who at Fortune deserves to be fired for its recent long string of incredibly idiotic articles about Apple, which have been panned here and elsewhere, then? I think the new Maps app is fantastic; the data accuracy leaves a bit to be desired, but I notice that those doing the most high-profile complaining point to errors in rural England, rural Ontario, etc. Here in the Bay Area, the data is working fine for me as well. It is not shocking to me that a map database that is a few months old is less mature than one like Google's, which is the product of a decade's effort, and also the product of 5 years' worth of improvements riding the back of iOS users' crowd-sourced data. Now Apple has that data coming into its database, instead of flying out the door to Google's. Maps is likely to improve, and fast. In any case, blaming Forstall is idiotic and talking about firing him is Fortune-level idiotic. He made great things at NeXT, Mac OS X is great, Siri is great, and Maps is a work in progress that shows great promise. Have you tried reloading map data and zooming in and out on maps in Google Maps vs. Apple Maps in an area with EDGE or otherwise bad internet coverage? Apple's app wins hands-down versus reloading non-vector map tiles.
- st0p 14y ago
  Newsflash: A lot of people live in rural England, rural Ontario and Rural Holland. Besides, it can't find places like central station in Amsterdam (hardly rural). I don't care whether it's the app or the data, I don't care that it's working great in the bay area. What I do care about is that I had a perfectly working mapping solution, and now I have a second class thing that's just not working. I don't know about you, but IMHO having wrong directions is even worse than having no directions.
  - Bud 14y ago
    True, and I granted that point already. However, a lot of people live in China, too, and it's being widely reported that Apple Maps is much better than Google Maps' data, in China. I'll just give one link, but a little googling around proves the point quite well: http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/gadget/314283/apple-maps-better-than-google-in-china http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/gadget/314283/apple-maps-bet... You didn't have a perfectly working solution before, btw; Google Maps still has a lot of errors. And what you have now is both Google Maps (via Safari), and also a new Maps app that is internally superior and relies on a less-mature dataset which will mature quickly and give Google some much-needed motivation to improve its data as well. I'm not sure why this is such a big disaster. Edit: By the way, Apple Maps finds Amsterdam Centraal (not "Central") Station just fine, if you spell it correctly. I just checked; it finds the exact same place as Google Maps.
rhizome 14y ago
I thought this sounded familiar: http://nerdtwilight.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/apples-steve-jobs-problem/ http://nerdtwilight.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/apples-steve-jo...
fleitz 14y ago
Another way to look at the accumulation of power during Jobs absence is other members of the executive team stepping up to the plate while another is absent...
robomartin 14y ago
Nah. I don't agree with the premise of this article. This was not one person's decision. Many actors had to be involved in the decision making process. For some reason Apple decided that kicking Google off the platform was worth the abuse they'd have to endure with Maps. Those who keep saying "Maps is great" need to leave an egocentric view and realize that there are millions of users all around the world with different experiences. According to the apology letter they serve about 500 million searches in one week. That means two billion searches per month. What does this mean in therms of customer experience? http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/ http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/ According to this either 60% of the locations either incorrect or missing altogether. I'll be generous and propose that Maps, world-wide, might have an average of 5% incorrect or missing locations. I don't know if this is too low or too high. It's just a number that I pulled out of my imagination in order to get a sense of proportion. If only 5% of the data is wrong and we have two billion searches per month, that means 100 million bad searches per month. I'll let the reader guess as to how many users that affects. It certainly is in the millions. If data errors are larger than that the situation is far worst. Again, I'll leave it up to the reader to guess as to how much user anger would trigger Apple to post an apology letter on the front page of their site. If you live here in California, and, in particular, the Bay Area, please refrain from posting how "Maps is great and it is beautiful". You do not represent the experience of the vast majority of users who had almost no issues whatsoever with Google Maps. Oh, yes, on the whole "Maps is beautiful" mantra. Who the f* cares? 3D view? Who the f* cares? First make them dead accurate, then add eye candy if it makes sense. Accuracy is far more important than bling when it comes to maps. Nobody is going to want to use a beautiful map that takes you to the wrong place. And 3D view. Really? Get it right first. Then play.
- pilsetnieks 14y ago
  Everybody knows by now that the maps are no good. I think that at this point the rage and anger is about overpromising and knowingly shipping an unfinished product of insufficient quality, something Apple has never (arguably) done before. As it says in the article, the same could be applied to Siri but Siri came with the "beta" warning label, a lot of people understand that voice recognition and that kind of pseudo-AI is really hard, and it was better than anything competitors had to offer, which, obviously, is not the case with maps.
stretchwithme 14y ago
I have a TomTom. And the first error I see in their data is 200 feet from my house. Gargade in, garbage out.
eaurouge 14y ago
Why people don't seem to get this is beyond me. Releasing Siri and Maps early were purely strategic decisions. Clearly both Siri and Maps can be improved more rapidly if some of the development is crowdsourced. Apple would believe (and rightly so) that the brand has enough excess credibility/goodwill with the public to ride this out. Google has done this repeatedly with products like GOOG-411, a data collection exercise that was promptly shut down once it had served its purpose. Apple is taking a risk here because Maps is not some 'free' offering like GOOG-411, but they've done the math and will come out ahead when the dust settles.
- eurleif 14y ago
  GOOG-411 worked well, in my experience; and it also let you make free calls. I think it was probably a PR win for Google.
nachteilig 14y ago
As much as I dislike Forstall--particularly the way he presents--I don't think we can lay this all at his feet. You can bet that even Steve had a hand in this decision.
outside1234 14y ago
No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" in that they don't seem to have the hard core folks to do algorithms in the way that Google does. Apple has a lot of smart people, but can you really see them building a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it in order to have super accurate maps? I can't. But that's what Google did. Its also a "device centric problem": I'm always struck when talking with someone from Apple about how device centric they are thinking (running algorithms locally that should run in the cloud, etc.). The cloud is eating the world and device centric thinking, while its done them well for a while, is increasingly incorrect.
- 001sky 14y ago
  No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" -- Seriously? This is "analysis"? A "a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it"? Learn before you speak. The noticeable problems are not subtle: clouds covering cities in the UK, buildings not being named on College Campus, etc. Stadia 0.5km out of place. They are obvious, silly, dealbreaker problems for Soccer Moms and Sociology FFS. Algo's are not going to solve this cr@p, its Cartpgraphy 101...and in any event, Google has to hand fit the data that they do have, for a variety of reasons, to sat-nav visuals (including incosistent basemaps).
  - outside1234 14y ago
    Sorry - I shouldn't have dumped on the liberal arts - maybe I should have used "left brain." Algorithms are indeed solving a lot of these problems for Google. They are reading the street signs and shop signs for peet's sake!
  - pbharrin 14y ago
    Totally agree. I know, from many sources that a lot of human labor goes into making the Google data so good. They used to give out cookies to employees who would filter search results as porn/not porn. Algos can only get you so far.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  If the cloud is eating the world, why did Google buy a mobile OS company and then a mobile device company? If Apple is too device-centric, why does Siri send every query to their data center instead of processing it on the phone? In short, I don't think you've thought deeply about what you're writing.
dvhh 14y ago
The whole flow was amazing. 1. Acquire external talent 2. Fire google 3. Tell the press that the new map gonna be amazing 4. Apologize for the whole mess 5. Sell 3rd party map on the app store 6. Profit
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I've got a question on the maps fiasco, is it possible that Google never shared any usage data with Apple and somehow Apple thought nobody really used the App all that much? Seems like the click/search stream in maps is a tremendous asset for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it comes with a unique undisguisable identifier with each request. Where you go an when you go there, both part of the query when you use maps. Its an advertiser's wet dream I would think. Perhaps Scott realized that and decided to take it back from Google? I don't know. I do know it is pointless to try to second guess the executive staff of a company like Apple (or Google, or Groupon, or Zynga, Etc) even though it is fun.
programminggeek 14y ago
I think you'd have to be a fool to think Apple didn't see this coming, but in reality it a big deal for Apple, but not an earth shattering one. To truly improve things like Siri and Maps, you need real world data, user feedback, etc. I'm sure they are keenly aware of the shortfalls of their own software, as much as they are of the hardware they make. That's the whole point of QA. What pushing out products early does is let you start getting feedback on the known unknowns - problems you'd expect to have but didn't know exactly where they might be, and the unknown unknowns - problems you didn't see coming at all.
pbharrin 14y ago
YES!

134 points by olivercameron 14y ago

Forstall has been called "Apple's chief asshole"[0] - he channels Steve Jobs's approach of being a douchebag, but doesn't seem to have acquired the same level of perfectionism as Jobs. 0: http://www.dailytech.com/Apples+chief+Ahole+Forstall+Keeps+Steve+Jobs+Executive+Legacy+Alive/article23003.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Apples+chief+Ahole+Forstall+Keeps+S...

joe_the_user 14y ago
Maybe Apple has a "if you take the different parts of Steve Job's management style in isolation, they start to look horrible" problem.
batista 14y ago
He also gives me that impression when I see him on Keynotes, one of a power grabbing, back-stabbing kind of guy. Which could or could not be true, I'm talking purely from a "face-reading" standpoint. The exact opposite of that would be Bob Mansfield.
- bronxbomber92 14y ago
  I've seen each VP (except Mansfield) talk in person and I have gotten a very different impression of Forstall. He was one of the most impressive VPs in my eyes (he talked a lot about his passion for bettering accessibility and making life-altering impacts with iOS).
- paulschreiber 14y ago
  Fosrtall is the kind of guy who would sell you a used car and hit on your wife.
  - dman 14y ago
    And you know this how?
    - gonzo 14y ago
      because his SO would, um, "flirt with" Forestall for a used car.

contextfree 14y ago

It sounds more like they have a services/big data problem, + maybe a Windows XP-like "good enough" problem (leading to new features and changes being viewed more skeptically)

pkamb 14y ago

> Inside Apple, tension has brewed for years over the [skeuomorphism] issue. Apple iOS SVP Scott Forstall is said to push for skeuomorphic design, while industrial designer Jony Ive and other Apple higher-ups are said to oppose the direction. "You could tell who did the product based on how much glitz was in the UI," says one source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process. http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-softwa...

nilsbunger 14y ago
Very interesting. Of course, Steve Jobs was also in favor of skeuomorphic design, so it's not like Forstall is the sole reason I "find my friends" in stitched leather.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  Stranger still, it is said that the stitched leather theme was modeled after the upholstery in Jobs' Gulfstream jet! [0] Both iCal on OS X and Find My Friends on iOS have the same motif. “But before Forstall, it was Steve Jobs who encouraged the skeuomorphic approach, some say. “iCal’s leather-stitching was literally based on a texture in his Gulfstream jet,” says the former senior UI designer. “There was lots of internal email among UI designers at Apple saying this was just embarrassing, just terrible.” [0] http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-softwa...
- dastbe 14y ago
  That's not skeumorphism; it's a style choice. If I had to simulate ripping the top piece of paper off the notepad in notes to clear it, then that would be skeumorphic design.
  - shinratdr 14y ago
    Can we just make this the auto-reply comment whenever someone mentions skeuomorphism on the internet? I couldn't be more sick of the concept, except when I hear it constantly being used incorrectly. Textures and styles aren't skeuomorphism, skeuomorphism is imitating real-world objects to provide a sense of familiarity in execution. Not a notes app that looks like a notepad, a notes app that FUNCTIONS like a notepad.

stevenleeg 14y ago

Since when has Siri been "an embarrassment for Apple?"

esolyt 14y ago
Always. But especially after Google Now.
weaksauce 14y ago
That's what I was wondering. It's not perfect, but what it does it does well for me. Setting timers, alarms, etc... all work pretty well.
timdorr 14y ago
It's had a similar number of issues, as compared to Maps. The difference is, it didn't replace or introduce a must-have feature in iOS. As a result, it's failures were something users are able to overlook because Siri is still, essentially, a toy feature. It's not key to the phone's operation; heck it's non-obvious that it's even a feature because no where on the interface indicates that it exists (it's a hidden long-press action on the home button). Maps, however, is crucial to most people that use an iPhone. After telephony and web functions, it's probably the next most used feature. So, any failure by it, even if it's slight, is amplified. Yes, you can use Google Maps on the web or another app (MapQuest should really be capitalizing on this opportunity to reclaim some relevance), but it's one of the default icons on the home screen and where most people are going to head first. It would be like the dialer not being able to call certain phone numbers or the text message not working with certain recipients. It's a vital function and has to work. I would say Siri is probably more of a failure than Maps, but because of it's non-essential nature, that feature is able to get away with what Maps can't.
- TheGateKeeper 14y ago
  > Maps, however, is crucial to most people that use an iPhone Citation please. Nobody I know uses google maps, even when we travel (which is a lot).

denzil_correa 14y ago

Forstall seems to be a "copy" of Jobs. I am not sure if it's a good thing.

X-Istence 14y ago

I don't understand why someone needs to be fired just because they had one or two bad products. Why would you throw away the rest of the knowledge that this person has? Demote them, put them on new projects, place them where they are stronger and have them work on another project, but outright removing someone seems like it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

blinkingled 14y ago
Fresh perspectives matter sometimes in product's lifecycle. Working on same stuff for years you run a high chance of developing tunnel vision. If there is a new but capable person with different vision, there is a good chance something new and appealing might come of it. Case in point - Steven Sinofsky and Windows 7. I dont know what other project they can put someone like Scott Forstall on without even indirectly becoming related to OS development at Apple.
weaksauce 14y ago
The reason from Jobs: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-05-07/tech/30043798_1_janitor-steve-jobs-excuse http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-05-07/tech/30043798... Makes sense to some extent at a company like apple. Maybe you get two chances but if you don't have the foresight to see how important maps are to people you might not be the best fit for the job.

dantiberian 14y ago

Does Fortune have an interest in creating pageview's by making this Scott Forstall's problem?

martythemaniak 14y ago

Well, I guess the knives are coming out. These kinds of distractions won't help Apple with a pack of hungry companies wanting to take it down.

Fjslfj 14y ago

Actually, it's an Eddy Cue problem.

czr80 14y ago
Can you elaborate on why you say that?
- lazugod 14y ago
  "Eddy Cue is Apple's senior vice president of Internet Software and Services." (from http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/eddy-cue.html http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/eddy-cue.html)
- Fjslfj 14y ago
  Almost all of the gripes people have with Apple Internet services and software involve Cue's products, not Forstall's. But because Cue doesn't have any interest in the top job, and because of his seniority, he ducks blame every time.

1veteran 14y ago

AAPL is a hardware company. If their devices looked ugly would you buy Apple devices? How important is the way they look on the table or in your hand? Apple has long been an attractive choice for creative professionals. The iPod changed all that. Apple got market share. They got the people who buy PC's. And they got the developers who target the dumbest users. Now we have AppStore. Now we have iPad. The bar is being lowered. Now we have trouble, as everyone else is trying to copy Apple and their silly thirst for control. Apple is not the solution you want for boring non-creative things like fast, accurate data retrieval. Apple is not made for the internet. Nor was Microsoft. They were founded for different things. Desktop metaphor things. They've had to adapt. It can be painful to watch. It can be painful for users.

Bud 14y ago

Who at Fortune deserves to be fired for its recent long string of incredibly idiotic articles about Apple, which have been panned here and elsewhere, then? I think the new Maps app is fantastic; the data accuracy leaves a bit to be desired, but I notice that those doing the most high-profile complaining point to errors in rural England, rural Ontario, etc. Here in the Bay Area, the data is working fine for me as well. It is not shocking to me that a map database that is a few months old is less mature than one like Google's, which is the product of a decade's effort, and also the product of 5 years' worth of improvements riding the back of iOS users' crowd-sourced data. Now Apple has that data coming into its database, instead of flying out the door to Google's. Maps is likely to improve, and fast. In any case, blaming Forstall is idiotic and talking about firing him is Fortune-level idiotic. He made great things at NeXT, Mac OS X is great, Siri is great, and Maps is a work in progress that shows great promise. Have you tried reloading map data and zooming in and out on maps in Google Maps vs. Apple Maps in an area with EDGE or otherwise bad internet coverage? Apple's app wins hands-down versus reloading non-vector map tiles.

st0p 14y ago
Newsflash: A lot of people live in rural England, rural Ontario and Rural Holland. Besides, it can't find places like central station in Amsterdam (hardly rural). I don't care whether it's the app or the data, I don't care that it's working great in the bay area. What I do care about is that I had a perfectly working mapping solution, and now I have a second class thing that's just not working. I don't know about you, but IMHO having wrong directions is even worse than having no directions.
- Bud 14y ago
  True, and I granted that point already. However, a lot of people live in China, too, and it's being widely reported that Apple Maps is much better than Google Maps' data, in China. I'll just give one link, but a little googling around proves the point quite well: http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/gadget/314283/apple-maps-better-than-google-in-china http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/gadget/314283/apple-maps-bet... You didn't have a perfectly working solution before, btw; Google Maps still has a lot of errors. And what you have now is both Google Maps (via Safari), and also a new Maps app that is internally superior and relies on a less-mature dataset which will mature quickly and give Google some much-needed motivation to improve its data as well. I'm not sure why this is such a big disaster. Edit: By the way, Apple Maps finds Amsterdam Centraal (not "Central") Station just fine, if you spell it correctly. I just checked; it finds the exact same place as Google Maps.

rhizome 14y ago

I thought this sounded familiar: http://nerdtwilight.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/apples-steve-jobs-problem/ http://nerdtwilight.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/apples-steve-jo...

fleitz 14y ago

Another way to look at the accumulation of power during Jobs absence is other members of the executive team stepping up to the plate while another is absent...

robomartin 14y ago

Nah. I don't agree with the premise of this article. This was not one person's decision. Many actors had to be involved in the decision making process. For some reason Apple decided that kicking Google off the platform was worth the abuse they'd have to endure with Maps. Those who keep saying "Maps is great" need to leave an egocentric view and realize that there are millions of users all around the world with different experiences. According to the apology letter they serve about 500 million searches in one week. That means two billion searches per month. What does this mean in therms of customer experience? http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/ http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/ According to this either 60% of the locations either incorrect or missing altogether. I'll be generous and propose that Maps, world-wide, might have an average of 5% incorrect or missing locations. I don't know if this is too low or too high. It's just a number that I pulled out of my imagination in order to get a sense of proportion. If only 5% of the data is wrong and we have two billion searches per month, that means 100 million bad searches per month. I'll let the reader guess as to how many users that affects. It certainly is in the millions. If data errors are larger than that the situation is far worst. Again, I'll leave it up to the reader to guess as to how much user anger would trigger Apple to post an apology letter on the front page of their site. If you live here in California, and, in particular, the Bay Area, please refrain from posting how "Maps is great and it is beautiful". You do not represent the experience of the vast majority of users who had almost no issues whatsoever with Google Maps. Oh, yes, on the whole "Maps is beautiful" mantra. Who the f* cares? 3D view? Who the f* cares? First make them dead accurate, then add eye candy if it makes sense. Accuracy is far more important than bling when it comes to maps. Nobody is going to want to use a beautiful map that takes you to the wrong place. And 3D view. Really? Get it right first. Then play.

pilsetnieks 14y ago
Everybody knows by now that the maps are no good. I think that at this point the rage and anger is about overpromising and knowingly shipping an unfinished product of insufficient quality, something Apple has never (arguably) done before. As it says in the article, the same could be applied to Siri but Siri came with the "beta" warning label, a lot of people understand that voice recognition and that kind of pseudo-AI is really hard, and it was better than anything competitors had to offer, which, obviously, is not the case with maps.

stretchwithme 14y ago

I have a TomTom. And the first error I see in their data is 200 feet from my house. Gargade in, garbage out.

eaurouge 14y ago

Why people don't seem to get this is beyond me. Releasing Siri and Maps early were purely strategic decisions. Clearly both Siri and Maps can be improved more rapidly if some of the development is crowdsourced. Apple would believe (and rightly so) that the brand has enough excess credibility/goodwill with the public to ride this out. Google has done this repeatedly with products like GOOG-411, a data collection exercise that was promptly shut down once it had served its purpose. Apple is taking a risk here because Maps is not some 'free' offering like GOOG-411, but they've done the math and will come out ahead when the dust settles.

eurleif 14y ago
GOOG-411 worked well, in my experience; and it also let you make free calls. I think it was probably a PR win for Google.

nachteilig 14y ago

As much as I dislike Forstall--particularly the way he presents--I don't think we can lay this all at his feet. You can bet that even Steve had a hand in this decision.

outside1234 14y ago

No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" in that they don't seem to have the hard core folks to do algorithms in the way that Google does. Apple has a lot of smart people, but can you really see them building a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it in order to have super accurate maps? I can't. But that's what Google did. Its also a "device centric problem": I'm always struck when talking with someone from Apple about how device centric they are thinking (running algorithms locally that should run in the cloud, etc.). The cloud is eating the world and device centric thinking, while its done them well for a while, is increasingly incorrect.

001sky 14y ago
No, Apple has a "liberal arts problem" -- Seriously? This is "analysis"? A "a self driving car with tons of lasers spinning on it"? Learn before you speak. The noticeable problems are not subtle: clouds covering cities in the UK, buildings not being named on College Campus, etc. Stadia 0.5km out of place. They are obvious, silly, dealbreaker problems for Soccer Moms and Sociology FFS. Algo's are not going to solve this cr@p, its Cartpgraphy 101...and in any event, Google has to hand fit the data that they do have, for a variety of reasons, to sat-nav visuals (including incosistent basemaps).
- outside1234 14y ago
  Sorry - I shouldn't have dumped on the liberal arts - maybe I should have used "left brain." Algorithms are indeed solving a lot of these problems for Google. They are reading the street signs and shop signs for peet's sake!
- pbharrin 14y ago
  Totally agree. I know, from many sources that a lot of human labor goes into making the Google data so good. They used to give out cookies to employees who would filter search results as porn/not porn. Algos can only get you so far.
snowwrestler 14y ago
If the cloud is eating the world, why did Google buy a mobile OS company and then a mobile device company? If Apple is too device-centric, why does Siri send every query to their data center instead of processing it on the phone? In short, I don't think you've thought deeply about what you're writing.

dvhh 14y ago

The whole flow was amazing. 1. Acquire external talent 2. Fire google 3. Tell the press that the new map gonna be amazing 4. Apologize for the whole mess 5. Sell 3rd party map on the app store 6. Profit

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I've got a question on the maps fiasco, is it possible that Google never shared any usage data with Apple and somehow Apple thought nobody really used the App all that much? Seems like the click/search stream in maps is a tremendous asset for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it comes with a unique undisguisable identifier with each request. Where you go an when you go there, both part of the query when you use maps. Its an advertiser's wet dream I would think. Perhaps Scott realized that and decided to take it back from Google? I don't know. I do know it is pointless to try to second guess the executive staff of a company like Apple (or Google, or Groupon, or Zynga, Etc) even though it is fun.

programminggeek 14y ago

I think you'd have to be a fool to think Apple didn't see this coming, but in reality it a big deal for Apple, but not an earth shattering one. To truly improve things like Siri and Maps, you need real world data, user feedback, etc. I'm sure they are keenly aware of the shortfalls of their own software, as much as they are of the hardware they make. That's the whole point of QA. What pushing out products early does is let you start getting feedback on the known unknowns - problems you'd expect to have but didn't know exactly where they might be, and the unknown unknowns - problems you didn't see coming at all.

pbharrin 14y ago

YES!