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As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and hel

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

edu 1y ago
As somebody from Spain, I concur.
gyomu 1y ago
"I'm sorry for how you feel" is widely accepted as a non-apology in English. Sincere apologies show awareness of how one's actions led to the situation that would require the apology.
- apexalpha 1y ago
  That's great but we're not all native English speakers. And "I'm sorry for you" seems like a hollow phrase to a Dutch person but this is used all the time in English. It's like how you say "How are you" when you really don't care but it's just how you start a conversation.
  - fouc 1y ago
    "I'm sorry for you" is a bit weird, normally we would say "I feel sorry for you", both having the meaning of showing sympathy. It would typically be inappropriate to use either of those in a sincere apology message.
  - whstl 1y ago
    Not saying you "have" to know or that the interpretation is even correct for this case, but, just to explain: The "I'm sorry you feel this way" is quite a recent phenomenon. It started showing up in public apologies by companies and celebrities, purely for PR. It's basically a deflective euphemism for "I'm sorry that you don't like whatever happened" without really admitting culpability, sidestepping all responsibility. With that said: I don't even know if the author (Kiki) is a native english speaker, since she's part of other language translation groups, so it might be 100% without intent. But that's how a lot of people perceive it today.
    - dcminter 1y ago
      "I'm sorry you feel that way" is shaped like an apology, but is essentially blaming the other party's feelings as being the problem. "I'm sorry I did that" is an actual apology. To be clear, I'm agreeing with you. I think that the former version emerged as it's litigation proof. Corporate PR can say that without it being an admission of anything if whatever they fucked up results in a lawsuit. It has spread to personal communications from corporate ones and it's now so prevalent that it is possible someone might use it and actually mean a real apology. But it's ... tainted.
    - gsck 1y ago
      "I'm sorry you feel that way" was literally the first thing I ever got taught when doing front of house/customer service training. Its definitely a super common phrase, at least in English speaking countries
      - DrammBA 1y ago
        Not sure if this is what you intended but you're just proving his point. Customer service is full of corporate-speak, scripted deflection, and hollow niceties. Of course the first thing you were taught was an empty apology.
tsimionescu 1y ago
If this were some small bug report, even from someone pretty ticked off, I'd agree. But this is a response to someone who has just announced that they are quitting an organization they had spent 20 years of their life volunteering for, because of the disrespect they have felt from the org. This is not a "hop on a call" moment. This is a "please accept to meet so I can apologize in person, and see if we can repair this" moment, preferably after acknowledging the disrespect.
- apexalpha 1y ago
  I don't know the original author but as a non-native speaker I guess I miss the cultural connotation surrounding "hop on a call". Doesn't seem weird to me, seems apt to ask to escalate the method of communication when a serious issue like this arises. Would you consider it more respectful to deal with this issue just by posting in the thread?
  - detaro 1y ago
    It's a community matter posted in a public place, a non-statement with an immediate attempt to direct it to private conversation reads like trying to avoid attention to your mistakes (e.g. hypothetically you don't have to public admit you didn't do anything to check for guidelines to follow). More vibe-y, it all sounds very corporate, like any PR statement in response to criticism ever, or a manager writing to an employee in a big corp, not "humans working together in a community, and one of the humans is clearly pissed off right now". Also while it's phrased as a question, it doesn't offer any alternative next step. So a better approach would be writing down the initial questions you have and then offer that you'd be open for a call if the OP prefers that. If they don't, they can immediately engage with your questions, and they are open to everybody else in the community. Whereas right now if they say "no, I don't want to call you" that's all you've given them. (To be clear I can easily believe the writer of the response is not intending any of that and means well, but that's how it comes across)
    - emayljames 1y ago
      I am from the UK, and I also think this is true. Hop on a call and the wording sounds like they do not want to fix the issue It comes across very condecending. Maybe it is a US problem
pegasus 1y ago
Given that the written complaint already had a list of ways Mozilla had stepped on the toes of those volunteers, expressing regret about their feelings without at least acknowledging that Mozilla's actions might have been rash is very condescending indeed. These volunteers are adding value to M's product for free and they are very angry and threatening to leave and this is your response? Basically saying "I'm sorry you're being such big babies, do you want some tissues?"...
nakedper 1y ago
I'm from the United States and I read the exact same thing that you did. Somebody really trying to help. Zero condescending or patronizing behavior. It seems like somebody doing their best to reach out and get in contact and yeah I agree completely that hell I could have written this myself. And probably have something like that before. I don't understand what culture would find that condescending at all.
- rzwitserloot 1y ago
  I'm from The Netherlands but have lived in the US for a while and unlike other country brethren responding in this thread, it did come across as condescending to me. Trying to dissect why it comes across, I think it's just me kneejerking to the 'pattern' of specifically "I am sorry you feel that way". I think my kneejerk disdain of that turn of phrase is correct, though. Being blunt here: Because that's a terrible apology! You are sorry that I feel this way? We're barely using the same dictionary here; how I feel about a thing is textbook 'stuff you cannot change or barely even fathom', so what is there to be sorry about? You might as well say "I'm sorry for the fact that 2 + 2 is 4". It's not apologetic in any way. It says sorry without taking even a millimeter of responsibility. A minimal apology that is slightly less condescending might be "I am sorry how our choices led to you feeling this way" because at least now you're sorry about your choices instead of being sorry about how I feel. I wouldn't want to be buoyed by false hope either, so taking as axiomatic that the moz team wants to hear how to improve matters but are not willing to completely 180º on their sumobot policies, something like: "I apologise for how we've kinda steamrolled y'all with rolling out sumobot. We were trying to improve the state of translations of our knowledge base articles and might have gone too far. We shouldn't have done it without keeping you out of the loop either. Is it possible to have a video call, apologise in person, and try to work out if there's a way sumobot can be helpful for all japanese language users of firefox in a way that works with your excellent work maintaining the KB so far?" I get that it's just american corpospeak, "hop on a call". But the number of times something that's perfectly normal in dutch culture (a bit brash, but not at all intended to be rude) gets jumped on by americans as being ridiculously rude... well, trying to write a way to be culturally aware of the recipient has to be a two-way street, right? I dont think this 'apology' is rude, not at all. But it's not apologetic. If you're peeved off at mozilla for foisting sumobot on you, you've already decided to cut ties, and then team mozilla tries to mend the relationship, this is a very poor attempt. In the context of an attempt to mend the relationship this is condescending. Or at least bad diplomacy.
jsiepkes 1y ago
I'm from the Netherlands as well and I wouldn't interpret this as condescending but as disingenuous corporate BS-speak where someone is doing damage control by showing "how much they value your opinion". And in the end not doing anything at all with your concerns.
bayindirh 1y ago
> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture AFAIK. If the person wanted to help genuinely, I'd expect to read something like "I'm sorry you feel like this. I read your comments but I want to clarify some points so I can transfer these up the chain with utmost clarity. We might have made some mistakes and don't want to leave you out in the cold".
- sarreph 1y ago
  > but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture What, specifically, about that phrasing is "very rude" and a "no-no" in Japanese culture? I am genuinely curious.
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Every culture has a way of discussing and resolving disagreements. Some are noisier and some are calmer. Some cultures do this dance with "apparent" disrespect, with forceful exchanges, some with calmer and tidier demeanor. Japanese are the latter. There's a polite dance of disagreement. Every side listens others with respect (with respect to the process even if they don't respect the others) and answer politely yet firmly. This comment smells like there's already some disagreement under this, and none of them have been listened and they are steamrolled with the new workflow. Implying "Hey you're overreacting, let us convince you" doesn't help on top of it.
  - eloisant 1y ago
    Politely say "I don't care what you think but I won't change anything" is perfectly fine in Japanese culture. Taking an issue privately instead of showing disagreements in public is also perfectly fine for Japanese people. The issue has nothing to do with Japanese culture, but with how you work with a community of volunteers over the web. "Let's jump on a call" is what you say to a coworker, not to a volunteer in an online community.
DecoySalamander 1y ago
Not a native speaker, but to me it reads as canned or AI generated response that acknowledges nothing in the post besides there being some kind of tiny disagreement. I don't see how "I'm sorry for how you feel about this" can be inteprented as anything other than "I'm not at fault, and I'm sorry I'll have to spend time pacifying you". Feels extremely disrespectful.
agnishom 1y ago
I don't think there is something inherently patronizing about this. But this tone seems like the most generic possible American corporate faux-friendly tone. In order to sound truly friendly, one has to break the script
codethief 1y ago
> As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. To be fair, Dutch culture is known for its directness[0] and for not interpreting even the harshest criticism as offensive, so I'm not sure I would trust your judgment on this… :-D That being said, as a fellow European, I concur. [0]: There was a great video on this a while back, which I don't seem to be able to find right now. https://www.tiktok.com/@letsdoubledutch/video/7382269275651788065 https://www.tiktok.com/@letsdoubledutch/video/73822692756517... seems close enough, though.
NoboruWataya 1y ago
As a native English speaker, I don't see it as condescending either. Yes it's a bit "corporate" in tone, but that is not uncommon at all in large human organisations (not just for-profit corporations but also government, NGOs, political orgs, etc). Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. Which is often entertaining but rarely very useful. But it's Mozilla. There is a segment of the community that will be pissed off by everything they do. Check the username of the person you're replying to.
- HeavyStorm 1y ago
  Not only the user name - that account was created specifically for this.
- StarGrit 1y ago
  I am English and the phrasing used is a backhanded way to tell you to shut-up and go away. I've seen it used by both native and non-native speakers in this manner. It is about 50/50 though as many people don't seem to pick up on backhanded way that many English people speak. > Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. This is also sometimes done to shut you up as well.
  - ClawsOnPaws 1y ago
    The core thing here is the "I'm sorry you feel this way". This immediately deflects all sense of wrong-doing from the people actually doing wrong to the people feeling hurt. There are so many other ways to phrase this that are either more neutral or even acknowledging of some kind of mistake being made that's not on the volunteer's side, but that's not what's happening here. Essentially this means "We did the right thing and now we need to figure out how to make you understand this", not "Something went wrong and we need to figure out how to come to an understanding which might include us having done something wrong".
    - 1y ago
HeavyStorm 1y ago
I think what the grand parent meant is that the staff doesn't acknowledge issues - instead, clearly says that this is how _they_ feel, points out that changes were "only recently introduced", and says that is interested in learning what they are struggling with, again, not acknowledging issues with the process or bot, instead wording as if this is marsf issue. Personally, I don't think this is that bad. This is a public thread and he's Mozilla staff - the wording has to be clinical. The worse part is the _recently introduced_ bit, but I would look over it.
benjiro 1y ago
As somebody from your Neighboring country, its really comes over as condescending... "I'm sorry for how you feel" is the definition of non-appology... Hey, even the AI overlords agree on this... > The phrase "I'm sorry for how you feel" is often perceived as a non-apology because it shifts blame to the other person's emotions instead of taking responsibility for one's actions. Instead of a genuine apology, it can sound like you're sorry they are upset rather than sorry for your behavior, and it can imply their feelings are the problem. A true apology acknowledges your role and expresses sincere regret for the pain you caused. In Dutch its something like "Het spijt me, hoe u hierover voelt" ... See the issue, the first part is a apology, that is then reflected to the other person. "We want to make sure we truly understand what you're struggling with." ... We do not understand why *you are struggling with this*. For us its perfectly normal, so why are you having a issue with this. So in Dutch its something like "We willen echt verstaan, waarom u moeite hebt hiermee". Aka, sending the issue back to the other person. See the issue how both parts flow and shift the issue to the other person. This is not a English language issue because the same way of writing is also done in Dutch if you want to do a non-apology with a dose of gaslighting. I never see anybody write like this, beyond those that have the intention to rile people up. Its gaslighting 101 ...
humanrebar 1y ago
"I'm sorry" can mean "I am apologizing" but often it instead means "I feel bad". It depends on context which applies. "I'm sorry for how you feel" without more explanation often sounds like "The thing that makes me feel bad in this situation is your reaction to it". It can come across as blaming the person for the feelings, regretting not being able to control others' feelings better, or dismissing the root causes of the feelings and any agency in them. It's a bad apology because of the ambiguity, though passive aggressive types like that aspect. It's honestly a bad way to sympathize as well.
jxf 1y ago
As a native English speaker, "I'm sorry for how you feel" is patronizing. Genuine apologies acknowledge mistakes rather than invalidate feelings.
crote 1y ago
Also from The Netherlands, this is 100% condescending and patronising to me. I read this as corporate-speak for "go fuck yourself". Let's go through it line-by-line: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. "We have zero regrets about the changes we made and have no intention of making any changes - the problem is how you feel about them". > Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? "I can't be bothered to engage with the points you already raised. You can do some venting in a Teams call, but we don't want there to be a record so we can't be held to any promises we might accidentally make." > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. "You are the problem: you haven't embraced our glorious changes yet. Accept our "help" to adapt to your new reality, or get out" So no, that's not what you'd write if you genuinely wanted to help: that's what you write when you want to get rid of someone who is bothering you. If they genuinely wanted to help, the response would've read something more like this: > Dear marsf, > It is shocking to me to learn that our recent rollout of sumobot has caused enough friction to make a 20-year veteran of our community quit. Our intention has always been, and will always be, to use new technology like sumobot to help our communities - not harm them. Reading your report, we have clearly failed at that. > To prevent it from doing additional damage, we have chosen to pause sumobot for the moment. We still believe that it can become a valuable tool, but it'll remain paused until we have discussed its modes of operation and the impact it has on the way you contribute with representatives of the various communities. We'll work out an approach over the following weeks. > I hope this is sufficient for now to change your mind about leaving - people like you are essential to open-source applications like Firefox. If you wish to discuss it face-to-face, my team and I am more than happy to hop on a call with you to make sure we are doing the right thing.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  200% agree In particular I think your alternative response is excellent and what I would have hoped for in an ideal world.
- k1musab1 1y ago
  I can't believe I had to scroll this far to find a well-articulated example of a proper response. It isn't just a few words that needed changing, the original response by Mozilla mas missing the whole point that you bring up in your example: a 20y veteran volunteer is leaving. Within a small community, the action of a single veteran/leader leaving this way will certainly have an effect on the rest of the volunteers, even more so when you consider the cultural aspects of this specific community.
realaaa 1y ago
yeah nah mate, it is 100% tone deaf - does not reflect the frustration of the OP you don't reply like this to just open forum lazy ass business world reply you get in touch ASAP and personally, if you really want to keep them
happymellon 1y ago
I read it in the following "code". > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. This is an emotion that you are feeling, not an actual problem. > Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? I'm not going to say that anything is actually wrong, we just want to discuss the best way to dismiss this. > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. Reiterating that the Japanese translators are the ones struggling to adapt, not that there could be a problem with the new reality. From my perspective, this is typical middle management speak to allow people to complain into a void without promising improvements. The approach I would recommend if there was going to be some opening to change the approach would have been. > I'm sorry that the changes to the workflows have disrupted your processes. Would you be interested in hopping on a call so that we can discuss the changes that we will be making, as I think that at least some of the issues have been identified and should be fixed soon? We want to ensure that we do not introduce problems with the community contributions.
sometimes_all 1y ago
If someone, especially one who pretty much worked for free for 20+ years to make YOUR PRODUCT BETTER and you just burned off all their hard work in front of them, just publicly quits with a proper explanation given as to why, and then you ask them to come to a quiet corner to "discuss things", maybe as damage control or whatever, without returning the favor and explaining your point of you as publicly as they did, or even preferring up the chance to give them some sort of agency and an opportunity for yourself to rectify things, I cannot see anything except condescending and disrespectful behavior. This doesn't need any low-context/high-context nonsense to figure it out, given when the complainer's post was plaintive enough for someone from the Netherlands to appreciate.
cosmosgenius 1y ago
The condescension is coming from "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with." which is completely dismissing the points they made in the post. Basics "surely there is more to it than just what is in the post". A better response would have responded with actions/talking points to the items listed in the post. Then asking for a call for further clarification of the respondents point.
LaGrange 1y ago
> As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. Not really painting us in good colors here, are you.

edu 1y ago

As somebody from Spain, I concur.

gyomu 1y ago

"I'm sorry for how you feel" is widely accepted as a non-apology in English. Sincere apologies show awareness of how one's actions led to the situation that would require the apology.

apexalpha 1y ago
That's great but we're not all native English speakers. And "I'm sorry for you" seems like a hollow phrase to a Dutch person but this is used all the time in English. It's like how you say "How are you" when you really don't care but it's just how you start a conversation.
- fouc 1y ago
  "I'm sorry for you" is a bit weird, normally we would say "I feel sorry for you", both having the meaning of showing sympathy. It would typically be inappropriate to use either of those in a sincere apology message.
- whstl 1y ago
  Not saying you "have" to know or that the interpretation is even correct for this case, but, just to explain: The "I'm sorry you feel this way" is quite a recent phenomenon. It started showing up in public apologies by companies and celebrities, purely for PR. It's basically a deflective euphemism for "I'm sorry that you don't like whatever happened" without really admitting culpability, sidestepping all responsibility. With that said: I don't even know if the author (Kiki) is a native english speaker, since she's part of other language translation groups, so it might be 100% without intent. But that's how a lot of people perceive it today.
  - dcminter 1y ago
    "I'm sorry you feel that way" is shaped like an apology, but is essentially blaming the other party's feelings as being the problem. "I'm sorry I did that" is an actual apology. To be clear, I'm agreeing with you. I think that the former version emerged as it's litigation proof. Corporate PR can say that without it being an admission of anything if whatever they fucked up results in a lawsuit. It has spread to personal communications from corporate ones and it's now so prevalent that it is possible someone might use it and actually mean a real apology. But it's ... tainted.
  - gsck 1y ago
    "I'm sorry you feel that way" was literally the first thing I ever got taught when doing front of house/customer service training. Its definitely a super common phrase, at least in English speaking countries
    - DrammBA 1y ago
      Not sure if this is what you intended but you're just proving his point. Customer service is full of corporate-speak, scripted deflection, and hollow niceties. Of course the first thing you were taught was an empty apology.

tsimionescu 1y ago

If this were some small bug report, even from someone pretty ticked off, I'd agree. But this is a response to someone who has just announced that they are quitting an organization they had spent 20 years of their life volunteering for, because of the disrespect they have felt from the org. This is not a "hop on a call" moment. This is a "please accept to meet so I can apologize in person, and see if we can repair this" moment, preferably after acknowledging the disrespect.

apexalpha 1y ago
I don't know the original author but as a non-native speaker I guess I miss the cultural connotation surrounding "hop on a call". Doesn't seem weird to me, seems apt to ask to escalate the method of communication when a serious issue like this arises. Would you consider it more respectful to deal with this issue just by posting in the thread?
- detaro 1y ago
  It's a community matter posted in a public place, a non-statement with an immediate attempt to direct it to private conversation reads like trying to avoid attention to your mistakes (e.g. hypothetically you don't have to public admit you didn't do anything to check for guidelines to follow). More vibe-y, it all sounds very corporate, like any PR statement in response to criticism ever, or a manager writing to an employee in a big corp, not "humans working together in a community, and one of the humans is clearly pissed off right now". Also while it's phrased as a question, it doesn't offer any alternative next step. So a better approach would be writing down the initial questions you have and then offer that you'd be open for a call if the OP prefers that. If they don't, they can immediately engage with your questions, and they are open to everybody else in the community. Whereas right now if they say "no, I don't want to call you" that's all you've given them. (To be clear I can easily believe the writer of the response is not intending any of that and means well, but that's how it comes across)
  - emayljames 1y ago
    I am from the UK, and I also think this is true. Hop on a call and the wording sounds like they do not want to fix the issue It comes across very condecending. Maybe it is a US problem

pegasus 1y ago

Given that the written complaint already had a list of ways Mozilla had stepped on the toes of those volunteers, expressing regret about their feelings without at least acknowledging that Mozilla's actions might have been rash is very condescending indeed. These volunteers are adding value to M's product for free and they are very angry and threatening to leave and this is your response? Basically saying "I'm sorry you're being such big babies, do you want some tissues?"...

nakedper 1y ago

I'm from the United States and I read the exact same thing that you did. Somebody really trying to help. Zero condescending or patronizing behavior. It seems like somebody doing their best to reach out and get in contact and yeah I agree completely that hell I could have written this myself. And probably have something like that before. I don't understand what culture would find that condescending at all.

rzwitserloot 1y ago
I'm from The Netherlands but have lived in the US for a while and unlike other country brethren responding in this thread, it did come across as condescending to me. Trying to dissect why it comes across, I think it's just me kneejerking to the 'pattern' of specifically "I am sorry you feel that way". I think my kneejerk disdain of that turn of phrase is correct, though. Being blunt here: Because that's a terrible apology! You are sorry that I feel this way? We're barely using the same dictionary here; how I feel about a thing is textbook 'stuff you cannot change or barely even fathom', so what is there to be sorry about? You might as well say "I'm sorry for the fact that 2 + 2 is 4". It's not apologetic in any way. It says sorry without taking even a millimeter of responsibility. A minimal apology that is slightly less condescending might be "I am sorry how our choices led to you feeling this way" because at least now you're sorry about your choices instead of being sorry about how I feel. I wouldn't want to be buoyed by false hope either, so taking as axiomatic that the moz team wants to hear how to improve matters but are not willing to completely 180º on their sumobot policies, something like: "I apologise for how we've kinda steamrolled y'all with rolling out sumobot. We were trying to improve the state of translations of our knowledge base articles and might have gone too far. We shouldn't have done it without keeping you out of the loop either. Is it possible to have a video call, apologise in person, and try to work out if there's a way sumobot can be helpful for all japanese language users of firefox in a way that works with your excellent work maintaining the KB so far?" I get that it's just american corpospeak, "hop on a call". But the number of times something that's perfectly normal in dutch culture (a bit brash, but not at all intended to be rude) gets jumped on by americans as being ridiculously rude... well, trying to write a way to be culturally aware of the recipient has to be a two-way street, right? I dont think this 'apology' is rude, not at all. But it's not apologetic. If you're peeved off at mozilla for foisting sumobot on you, you've already decided to cut ties, and then team mozilla tries to mend the relationship, this is a very poor attempt. In the context of an attempt to mend the relationship this is condescending. Or at least bad diplomacy.

jsiepkes 1y ago

I'm from the Netherlands as well and I wouldn't interpret this as condescending but as disingenuous corporate BS-speak where someone is doing damage control by showing "how much they value your opinion". And in the end not doing anything at all with your concerns.

bayindirh 1y ago

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture AFAIK. If the person wanted to help genuinely, I'd expect to read something like "I'm sorry you feel like this. I read your comments but I want to clarify some points so I can transfer these up the chain with utmost clarity. We might have made some mistakes and don't want to leave you out in the cold".

sarreph 1y ago
> but it's very rude and a no-no in Japanese culture What, specifically, about that phrasing is "very rude" and a "no-no" in Japanese culture? I am genuinely curious.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Every culture has a way of discussing and resolving disagreements. Some are noisier and some are calmer. Some cultures do this dance with "apparent" disrespect, with forceful exchanges, some with calmer and tidier demeanor. Japanese are the latter. There's a polite dance of disagreement. Every side listens others with respect (with respect to the process even if they don't respect the others) and answer politely yet firmly. This comment smells like there's already some disagreement under this, and none of them have been listened and they are steamrolled with the new workflow. Implying "Hey you're overreacting, let us convince you" doesn't help on top of it.
- eloisant 1y ago
  Politely say "I don't care what you think but I won't change anything" is perfectly fine in Japanese culture. Taking an issue privately instead of showing disagreements in public is also perfectly fine for Japanese people. The issue has nothing to do with Japanese culture, but with how you work with a community of volunteers over the web. "Let's jump on a call" is what you say to a coworker, not to a volunteer in an online community.

DecoySalamander 1y ago

Not a native speaker, but to me it reads as canned or AI generated response that acknowledges nothing in the post besides there being some kind of tiny disagreement. I don't see how "I'm sorry for how you feel about this" can be inteprented as anything other than "I'm not at fault, and I'm sorry I'll have to spend time pacifying you". Feels extremely disrespectful.

agnishom 1y ago

I don't think there is something inherently patronizing about this. But this tone seems like the most generic possible American corporate faux-friendly tone. In order to sound truly friendly, one has to break the script

codethief 1y ago

> As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. To be fair, Dutch culture is known for its directness[0] and for not interpreting even the harshest criticism as offensive, so I'm not sure I would trust your judgment on this… :-D That being said, as a fellow European, I concur. [0]: There was a great video on this a while back, which I don't seem to be able to find right now. https://www.tiktok.com/@letsdoubledutch/video/7382269275651788065 https://www.tiktok.com/@letsdoubledutch/video/73822692756517... seems close enough, though.

NoboruWataya 1y ago

As a native English speaker, I don't see it as condescending either. Yes it's a bit "corporate" in tone, but that is not uncommon at all in large human organisations (not just for-profit corporations but also government, NGOs, political orgs, etc). Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. Which is often entertaining but rarely very useful. But it's Mozilla. There is a segment of the community that will be pissed off by everything they do. Check the username of the person you're replying to.

HeavyStorm 1y ago
Not only the user name - that account was created specifically for this.
StarGrit 1y ago
I am English and the phrasing used is a backhanded way to tell you to shut-up and go away. I've seen it used by both native and non-native speakers in this manner. It is about 50/50 though as many people don't seem to pick up on backhanded way that many English people speak. > Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. This is also sometimes done to shut you up as well.
- ClawsOnPaws 1y ago
  The core thing here is the "I'm sorry you feel this way". This immediately deflects all sense of wrong-doing from the people actually doing wrong to the people feeling hurt. There are so many other ways to phrase this that are either more neutral or even acknowledging of some kind of mistake being made that's not on the volunteer's side, but that's not what's happening here. Essentially this means "We did the right thing and now we need to figure out how to make you understand this", not "Something went wrong and we need to figure out how to come to an understanding which might include us having done something wrong".
  - 1y ago

HeavyStorm 1y ago

I think what the grand parent meant is that the staff doesn't acknowledge issues - instead, clearly says that this is how _they_ feel, points out that changes were "only recently introduced", and says that is interested in learning what they are struggling with, again, not acknowledging issues with the process or bot, instead wording as if this is marsf issue. Personally, I don't think this is that bad. This is a public thread and he's Mozilla staff - the wording has to be clinical. The worse part is the _recently introduced_ bit, but I would look over it.

benjiro 1y ago

As somebody from your Neighboring country, its really comes over as condescending... "I'm sorry for how you feel" is the definition of non-appology... Hey, even the AI overlords agree on this... > The phrase "I'm sorry for how you feel" is often perceived as a non-apology because it shifts blame to the other person's emotions instead of taking responsibility for one's actions. Instead of a genuine apology, it can sound like you're sorry they are upset rather than sorry for your behavior, and it can imply their feelings are the problem. A true apology acknowledges your role and expresses sincere regret for the pain you caused. In Dutch its something like "Het spijt me, hoe u hierover voelt" ... See the issue, the first part is a apology, that is then reflected to the other person. "We want to make sure we truly understand what you're struggling with." ... We do not understand why *you are struggling with this*. For us its perfectly normal, so why are you having a issue with this. So in Dutch its something like "We willen echt verstaan, waarom u moeite hebt hiermee". Aka, sending the issue back to the other person. See the issue how both parts flow and shift the issue to the other person. This is not a English language issue because the same way of writing is also done in Dutch if you want to do a non-apology with a dose of gaslighting. I never see anybody write like this, beyond those that have the intention to rile people up. Its gaslighting 101 ...

humanrebar 1y ago

"I'm sorry" can mean "I am apologizing" but often it instead means "I feel bad". It depends on context which applies. "I'm sorry for how you feel" without more explanation often sounds like "The thing that makes me feel bad in this situation is your reaction to it". It can come across as blaming the person for the feelings, regretting not being able to control others' feelings better, or dismissing the root causes of the feelings and any agency in them. It's a bad apology because of the ambiguity, though passive aggressive types like that aspect. It's honestly a bad way to sympathize as well.

jxf 1y ago

As a native English speaker, "I'm sorry for how you feel" is patronizing. Genuine apologies acknowledge mistakes rather than invalidate feelings.

crote 1y ago

Also from The Netherlands, this is 100% condescending and patronising to me. I read this as corporate-speak for "go fuck yourself". Let's go through it line-by-line: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. "We have zero regrets about the changes we made and have no intention of making any changes - the problem is how you feel about them". > Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? "I can't be bothered to engage with the points you already raised. You can do some venting in a Teams call, but we don't want there to be a record so we can't be held to any promises we might accidentally make." > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. "You are the problem: you haven't embraced our glorious changes yet. Accept our "help" to adapt to your new reality, or get out" So no, that's not what you'd write if you genuinely wanted to help: that's what you write when you want to get rid of someone who is bothering you. If they genuinely wanted to help, the response would've read something more like this: > Dear marsf, > It is shocking to me to learn that our recent rollout of sumobot has caused enough friction to make a 20-year veteran of our community quit. Our intention has always been, and will always be, to use new technology like sumobot to help our communities - not harm them. Reading your report, we have clearly failed at that. > To prevent it from doing additional damage, we have chosen to pause sumobot for the moment. We still believe that it can become a valuable tool, but it'll remain paused until we have discussed its modes of operation and the impact it has on the way you contribute with representatives of the various communities. We'll work out an approach over the following weeks. > I hope this is sufficient for now to change your mind about leaving - people like you are essential to open-source applications like Firefox. If you wish to discuss it face-to-face, my team and I am more than happy to hop on a call with you to make sure we are doing the right thing.

Y_Y 1y ago
200% agree In particular I think your alternative response is excellent and what I would have hoped for in an ideal world.
k1musab1 1y ago
I can't believe I had to scroll this far to find a well-articulated example of a proper response. It isn't just a few words that needed changing, the original response by Mozilla mas missing the whole point that you bring up in your example: a 20y veteran volunteer is leaving. Within a small community, the action of a single veteran/leader leaving this way will certainly have an effect on the rest of the volunteers, even more so when you consider the cultural aspects of this specific community.

realaaa 1y ago

yeah nah mate, it is 100% tone deaf - does not reflect the frustration of the OP you don't reply like this to just open forum lazy ass business world reply you get in touch ASAP and personally, if you really want to keep them

happymellon 1y ago

I read it in the following "code". > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. This is an emotion that you are feeling, not an actual problem. > Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? I'm not going to say that anything is actually wrong, we just want to discuss the best way to dismiss this. > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. Reiterating that the Japanese translators are the ones struggling to adapt, not that there could be a problem with the new reality. From my perspective, this is typical middle management speak to allow people to complain into a void without promising improvements. The approach I would recommend if there was going to be some opening to change the approach would have been. > I'm sorry that the changes to the workflows have disrupted your processes. Would you be interested in hopping on a call so that we can discuss the changes that we will be making, as I think that at least some of the issues have been identified and should be fixed soon? We want to ensure that we do not introduce problems with the community contributions.

sometimes_all 1y ago

If someone, especially one who pretty much worked for free for 20+ years to make YOUR PRODUCT BETTER and you just burned off all their hard work in front of them, just publicly quits with a proper explanation given as to why, and then you ask them to come to a quiet corner to "discuss things", maybe as damage control or whatever, without returning the favor and explaining your point of you as publicly as they did, or even preferring up the chance to give them some sort of agency and an opportunity for yourself to rectify things, I cannot see anything except condescending and disrespectful behavior. This doesn't need any low-context/high-context nonsense to figure it out, given when the complainer's post was plaintive enough for someone from the Netherlands to appreciate.

cosmosgenius 1y ago

The condescension is coming from "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with." which is completely dismissing the points they made in the post. Basics "surely there is more to it than just what is in the post". A better response would have responded with actions/talking points to the items listed in the post. Then asking for a call for further clarification of the respondents point.

LaGrange 1y ago

> As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. Not really painting us in good colors here, are you.