8 ms·

ICE and the Smartphone Panopticon

218 points by fortran77 1y ago

fortran77 1y ago
https://archive.ph/T5ZmS https://archive.ph/T5ZmS
Terr_ 1y ago
> Eyes Up provides a way for users to record and upload footage of abusive law-enforcement activity, building an archive of potential evidence. [...] Then, on October 3rd, Mark received a notice that Apple was removing the app from its store on the grounds that it may “harm a targeted individual or group.” In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people. > Pressure on the tech platforms seemed to come from the Trump Administration; after a deadly shooting at an ICE field office in Dallas in late September, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said in a statement to Fox News Digital that ICEBlock “put ICE agents at risk just for doing their jobs.” It makes for an extra-ridiculous backdrop, since absolutely nobody needed any kind of app to determine that ICE agents will be present at... the big building near the highway with a huge concrete sign on the lawn proclaiming "US Immigration and Custom Enforcement." ... I mean, what're the odds? > Like other forms of self expression, digital-communication technology has become dangerously circumscribed under Trump; only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent. As these platforms start banning software written by private individuals, we'll have to see what kind of incident tracker some Democrats have promised to arrange. [1] I would expect the niche to be long-term documentation like the banned Eyes Up app, rather than real-time notification of, er, road conditions. Either way, it highlights a different problem with Apple and Google working to prohibit us (users) from freely installing software we onto hardware we own. ___________ [0] https://www.techdirt.com/2025/10/10/apple-decides-ice-agents-are-a-protected-class-because-apparently-government-accountability-is-now-hate-speech/ https://www.techdirt.com/2025/10/10/apple-decides-ice-agents... [1] https://gizmodo.com/democrats-will-launch-a-master-ice-tracker-to-monitor-misconduct-2000675746 https://gizmodo.com/democrats-will-launch-a-master-ice-track...
- yupyupyups 1y ago
  Allowing users to sIdEloAde apps will compromise user security and privacy. Furthermore, Apple has always stood in solidarity with marginalized people and will continue to do so. /s
- noduerme 1y ago
  >> only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent The problem is that those tools will never be easy for the general public to use, and the big data problem requires the genpop to be onboard. I honestly don't see a good way out of this. At a certain point in the evolution of any authoritarian state, those apps or devices which run them will just be banned and punishable to possess. In America, we're just running up against the outskirts of what hard power can do to silence and intimidate people.
  - deaux 1y ago
    I don't really get why these at least don't offer both "native" app and web. The people making these apps 1. surely understand that this was going to happen 2. are making them as fast as possible using hybrid frameworks (which is 100% the correct thing to do in this situation) 3. are easily capable of hosting them as a web app as well. I don't want to be too harsh on people who made these apps but I am pretty peeved. They completely wasted the opportunity as now any new apps they'll get banned before they get onto the stores. I think all of us on HN could've told them this was inevitable ages ago and especially since they're engaged enough to be making these apps surely they knew themselves. If they from day 1 also hosted it as a webapp (as an alternative), that would be the immediate migration path. Heck, they could've advertised/linked it in the app itself. This is allowed and doesn't get one blocked from the stores unless there's payment options involved which is explicitly not the case here.
- lostlogin 1y ago
  > In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people. Comparing ICE agents to transgender people might be the most inflammatory thing you could say to them or their masters.
SurceBeats 1y ago
The ICEBlock removal is absurd when you consider Waze has been warning drivers about police locations for... Years? The only difference is which government agency is being monitored. This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really
- RajT88 1y ago
  > This sets a dangerous precedent Quite a lot of things this statement applies to lately.
- lovich 1y ago
  > This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really It’s only a dangerous precedent if you believe your opponents will ever gain power. If you believe your political opponents will never have power again, then who cares about precedent?
  - pigeons 1y ago
    Well, still dangerous for the people its used against.
    - lostlogin 1y ago
      Missing this point is alarming.
      - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
        It’s possible loveich does not morally agree with their own post, but are providing it as an opposing view.
        potato3732842 1y ago
        I think his post is meant to be interpreted about like holding up a mirror in response to "who done this?".
paustint 1y ago
[flagged]
- catlifeonmars 1y ago
  [flagged]
- gradus_ad 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - notepad0x90 1y ago
    It isn't, breaking the law while trying to enforce the law is.
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    Americans traditionally weren't this happy to give up hard won rights to privacy/freedoms for a little easier immigration enforcement. It is pretty shocking to see how ok the Infowars/Libertarian/small government types are with intrusive, biometric surveillance, and expanding a government agency in such a wasteful way it makes the TSA look meticulous.
- ashton314 1y ago
  At the cost of misidentifying innocent citizens and deporting them? These surveillance technologies have way too many false positives. Pray you never have to flee your country to escape violence or persecution. Most of these people are just desperate.
- kinakomochidayo 1y ago
  So why are American citizens getting detained?
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    Or even just detained or arrested.
- 1y ago
_ZeD_ 1y ago
[flagged]
- deepsun 1y ago
  As a person from an authoritarian country, I should say that firearms mean much less than coordination. Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people. In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms". But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason.
  - themafia 1y ago
    > Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people. What examples are you drawing from when making this conclusion? > In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms". Originally standing armies were not allowed. Each state was expected to perform it's own defense. The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state. It was expected they would appear with their own arms. > But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason. Subservient to what power?
    - coderatlarge 1y ago
      > The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state. so you’re saying a governor could declare their state to be under attack and organize a militia maybe even using state funds?
  - tombert 1y ago
    > But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason. The line between "private militia" and "terrorism" isn't very well defined. If the people are unsuccessful, they will be labeled as terrorists and potentially put to death. Most people don't want to be executed, and as far as I am aware there's only been one successful violent insurrection in the US [1], so the odds are very much not in your favor. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_massacre#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_massacre#Aftermath
coderatlarge 1y ago
so if i build an app that enables endusers to upload videos from their phones to youtube and then offers a labeling system so that ice-related (or other) activities can be interlinked and searched/discovered/traversed i am suddenly engaging in proscribed software development? how far down does this slope go???
- acuozzo 1y ago
  https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 This was written re: IP law, but applies to your comment as well.
  - coderatlarge 1y ago
    thanks for sharing! someone had explained to me the concept of “color of money” in payment systems years back and this matches up well.
- mlinhares 1y ago
  it goes as far as the king or his loyal enablers think it needs to go. the slope is very short, actually, because the moment you do that you'll have a target on your back and might receive a visit from a federal law enforcement agency.
  - coderatlarge 1y ago
    to go further: let’s say i don’t even define a purpose for the app but just leave it open to users to define their metadata labeling scheme and all the app does is index the videos labeled in a common way. perhaps endusers agree on redit or on some wiki how they will label posts. the app just traverses the labeling scheme and provides some basic viewing and searching locally; without a server involved beyond youtube. i’m just wondering whether this new situation essentially criminalizes metadata.
    - trillic 1y ago
      criminalization of aggregation
mathgorges 1y ago
The code for Eyes Up seems to be public [0](although there’s no license, so presumably is copyrighted). I bet that one could refactor it into a PWA. [0]: https://github.com/explorealways/eyes-up https://github.com/explorealways/eyes-up
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  I’m going to guess if you opened a ticket the writer would provide it as a permissive licence.
- port11 1y ago
  If only there were 2 big corporations hellbent on making PWAs and side-loading harder/worse… and perhaps that duopoly could then donate some money for the president's ballroom, and maybe they could even be found guilty of price-fixing wages, and… EU folk, we really need a 3rd platform. Let's go.
immigrationwarn 1y ago
[flagged]
- floundy 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - realusername 1y ago
    I wouldn't critisize the ICE on my main account either if I were American.
  - spiderfarmer 1y ago
    Yes, it's this bad. People feel they have to create throwaways to shield themselves from repercussions from that awful regime.
- vtail 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    Sure. But they are both bad. Only one is going on today so we can discuss your point in a different discussion.
  - whatshisface 1y ago
    That guy's gone...
  - LodeOfCode 1y ago
    "Spying" >The FBI in 2023 sought and obtained data about the senators’ phone use from January 4 through January 7, 2021. That data shows when and to whom a call is made, as well as the duration and general location data of the call. The data does not include the content of the call.
  - dialup_sounds 1y ago
    FYI, that investigation also resulted in an indictment—conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding; obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding; and conspiracy against rights.
saubeidl 1y ago
[flagged]
- vorpalhex 1y ago
  Your [1] is from 2016. Seems like your timeline is off.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    It is abhorrent that that's your takeaway from the threatening of political opponents.
avipars 1y ago
https://archive.li/T5ZmS https://archive.li/T5ZmS
nobody9999 1y ago
I wonder how many current ICE/CBP employees are members of groups defined as extremist[0] by the Southern Poverty Law Center? I don't know the answer, but I hope (although I'm not sanguine about it) the answer is zero. That said, if DHS is prioritizing hiring such folks for ICE/CBP (as a paramilitary force bent on domination of the US controlled only by Trump and his minions), we're going to have serious problems getting the current administration to vacate on 20 January 2029, especially since these folks have a budget larger than most military forces around the world. Is that alarmist? I don't know. Then again, so many unprecedented, authoritarian and outright illegal things have been done by the current administration. As such, it wouldn't surprise me to see right-wing militia thugs on the ICE/CBP payroll. I hope I'm wrong. I fear I'm not. [0] https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/?meta_extremist_type=group https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/?meta_ex... Edit: Maybe I'm paranoid, but so many of this administration's actions seem to come right out of the fascist/authoritarian playbook (cf. https://archive.ph/xbm1E https://archive.ph/xbm1E although there are many other expositions of this as well).
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  Good luck having an election. All suspicious looking people approaching a polling station will get their identities very thoroughly checked, in a prison in some undisclosed location, until the election is fairly counted to be won by MAGA. Or any other number of ways to disrupt an election. Maybe not open Congress at all? edit: They wouldn't arrest citizens you say? https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
  - nobody9999 1y ago
    >edit: They wouldn't arrest citizens you say? Who said that? Not me. In fact, they've been doing so for a while. And beating them, even shooting[0] them -- because they can -- with impunity. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/10/04/ice-shooting-chicago-guard/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/10/04/ice-shooting-chica...

218 points by fortran77 1y ago

https://archive.ph/T5ZmS https://archive.ph/T5ZmS

> Eyes Up provides a way for users to record and upload footage of abusive law-enforcement activity, building an archive of potential evidence. [...] Then, on October 3rd, Mark received a notice that Apple was removing the app from its store on the grounds that it may “harm a targeted individual or group.” In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people. > Pressure on the tech platforms seemed to come from the Trump Administration; after a deadly shooting at an ICE field office in Dallas in late September, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said in a statement to Fox News Digital that ICEBlock “put ICE agents at risk just for doing their jobs.” It makes for an extra-ridiculous backdrop, since absolutely nobody needed any kind of app to determine that ICE agents will be present at... the big building near the highway with a huge concrete sign on the lawn proclaiming "US Immigration and Custom Enforcement." ... I mean, what're the odds? > Like other forms of self expression, digital-communication technology has become dangerously circumscribed under Trump; only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent. As these platforms start banning software written by private individuals, we'll have to see what kind of incident tracker some Democrats have promised to arrange. [1] I would expect the niche to be long-term documentation like the banned Eyes Up app, rather than real-time notification of, er, road conditions. Either way, it highlights a different problem with Apple and Google working to prohibit us (users) from freely installing software we onto hardware we own. ___________ [0] https://www.techdirt.com/2025/10/10/apple-decides-ice-agents-are-a-protected-class-because-apparently-government-accountability-is-now-hate-speech/ https://www.techdirt.com/2025/10/10/apple-decides-ice-agents... [1] https://gizmodo.com/democrats-will-launch-a-master-ice-tracker-to-monitor-misconduct-2000675746 https://gizmodo.com/democrats-will-launch-a-master-ice-track...

yupyupyups 1y ago
Allowing users to sIdEloAde apps will compromise user security and privacy. Furthermore, Apple has always stood in solidarity with marginalized people and will continue to do so. /s
noduerme 1y ago
>> only the tools that exist independent of Big Tech seem like safe bets for dissent The problem is that those tools will never be easy for the general public to use, and the big data problem requires the genpop to be onboard. I honestly don't see a good way out of this. At a certain point in the evolution of any authoritarian state, those apps or devices which run them will just be banned and punishable to possess. In America, we're just running up against the outskirts of what hard power can do to silence and intimidate people.
- deaux 1y ago
  I don't really get why these at least don't offer both "native" app and web. The people making these apps 1. surely understand that this was going to happen 2. are making them as fast as possible using hybrid frameworks (which is 100% the correct thing to do in this situation) 3. are easily capable of hosting them as a web app as well. I don't want to be too harsh on people who made these apps but I am pretty peeved. They completely wasted the opportunity as now any new apps they'll get banned before they get onto the stores. I think all of us on HN could've told them this was inevitable ages ago and especially since they're engaged enough to be making these apps surely they knew themselves. If they from day 1 also hosted it as a webapp (as an alternative), that would be the immediate migration path. Heck, they could've advertised/linked it in the app itself. This is allowed and doesn't get one blocked from the stores unless there's payment options involved which is explicitly not the case here.
lostlogin 1y ago
> In other words, [0] somebody in Apple declared that ICE agents, on duty, operating in public, executing federally-authorized violence, have somehow qualified as a "targeted group" just like transgender people. Comparing ICE agents to transgender people might be the most inflammatory thing you could say to them or their masters.

SurceBeats 1y ago

The ICEBlock removal is absurd when you consider Waze has been warning drivers about police locations for... Years? The only difference is which government agency is being monitored. This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really

RajT88 1y ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent Quite a lot of things this statement applies to lately.
lovich 1y ago
> This sets a dangerous precedent for selective enforcement of ToS really It’s only a dangerous precedent if you believe your opponents will ever gain power. If you believe your political opponents will never have power again, then who cares about precedent?
- pigeons 1y ago
  Well, still dangerous for the people its used against.
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    Missing this point is alarming.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
      It’s possible loveich does not morally agree with their own post, but are providing it as an opposing view.
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        I think his post is meant to be interpreted about like holding up a mirror in response to "who done this?".

paustint 1y ago

[flagged]

catlifeonmars 1y ago
[flagged]
gradus_ad 1y ago
[flagged]
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  It isn't, breaking the law while trying to enforce the law is.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Americans traditionally weren't this happy to give up hard won rights to privacy/freedoms for a little easier immigration enforcement. It is pretty shocking to see how ok the Infowars/Libertarian/small government types are with intrusive, biometric surveillance, and expanding a government agency in such a wasteful way it makes the TSA look meticulous.
ashton314 1y ago
At the cost of misidentifying innocent citizens and deporting them? These surveillance technologies have way too many false positives. Pray you never have to flee your country to escape violence or persecution. Most of these people are just desperate.
kinakomochidayo 1y ago
So why are American citizens getting detained?
- barbazoo 1y ago
  Or even just detained or arrested.
1y ago

_ZeD_ 1y ago

[flagged]

deepsun 1y ago
As a person from an authoritarian country, I should say that firearms mean much less than coordination. Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people. In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms". But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason.
- themafia 1y ago
  > Organized group of 100 with no guns is stronger than 10000 armed but poorly coordinated people. What examples are you drawing from when making this conclusion? > In other words, a "well regulated Militia" in the Second Amendment is more important than "bear arms". Originally standing armies were not allowed. Each state was expected to perform it's own defense. The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state. It was expected they would appear with their own arms. > But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason. Subservient to what power?
  - coderatlarge 1y ago
    > The governor could create and disband a militia to defend the state. so you’re saying a governor could declare their state to be under attack and organize a militia maybe even using state funds?
- tombert 1y ago
  > But no one talks about creating a Militia (yet) for some reason. The line between "private militia" and "terrorism" isn't very well defined. If the people are unsuccessful, they will be labeled as terrorists and potentially put to death. Most people don't want to be executed, and as far as I am aware there's only been one successful violent insurrection in the US [1], so the odds are very much not in your favor. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_massacre#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_massacre#Aftermath

coderatlarge 1y ago

so if i build an app that enables endusers to upload videos from their phones to youtube and then offers a labeling system so that ice-related (or other) activities can be interlinked and searched/discovered/traversed i am suddenly engaging in proscribed software development? how far down does this slope go???

acuozzo 1y ago
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 This was written re: IP law, but applies to your comment as well.
- coderatlarge 1y ago
  thanks for sharing! someone had explained to me the concept of “color of money” in payment systems years back and this matches up well.
mlinhares 1y ago
it goes as far as the king or his loyal enablers think it needs to go. the slope is very short, actually, because the moment you do that you'll have a target on your back and might receive a visit from a federal law enforcement agency.
- coderatlarge 1y ago
  to go further: let’s say i don’t even define a purpose for the app but just leave it open to users to define their metadata labeling scheme and all the app does is index the videos labeled in a common way. perhaps endusers agree on redit or on some wiki how they will label posts. the app just traverses the labeling scheme and provides some basic viewing and searching locally; without a server involved beyond youtube. i’m just wondering whether this new situation essentially criminalizes metadata.
  - trillic 1y ago
    criminalization of aggregation

mathgorges 1y ago

The code for Eyes Up seems to be public [0](although there’s no license, so presumably is copyrighted). I bet that one could refactor it into a PWA. [0]: https://github.com/explorealways/eyes-up https://github.com/explorealways/eyes-up

hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
I’m going to guess if you opened a ticket the writer would provide it as a permissive licence.
port11 1y ago
If only there were 2 big corporations hellbent on making PWAs and side-loading harder/worse… and perhaps that duopoly could then donate some money for the president's ballroom, and maybe they could even be found guilty of price-fixing wages, and… EU folk, we really need a 3rd platform. Let's go.

immigrationwarn 1y ago

[flagged]

floundy 1y ago
[flagged]
- realusername 1y ago
  I wouldn't critisize the ICE on my main account either if I were American.
- spiderfarmer 1y ago
  Yes, it's this bad. People feel they have to create throwaways to shield themselves from repercussions from that awful regime.
vtail 1y ago
[flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Sure. But they are both bad. Only one is going on today so we can discuss your point in a different discussion.
- whatshisface 1y ago
  That guy's gone...
- LodeOfCode 1y ago
  "Spying" >The FBI in 2023 sought and obtained data about the senators’ phone use from January 4 through January 7, 2021. That data shows when and to whom a call is made, as well as the duration and general location data of the call. The data does not include the content of the call.
- dialup_sounds 1y ago
  FYI, that investigation also resulted in an indictment—conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding; obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding; and conspiracy against rights.

saubeidl 1y ago

[flagged]

vorpalhex 1y ago
Your [1] is from 2016. Seems like your timeline is off.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  It is abhorrent that that's your takeaway from the threatening of political opponents.

avipars 1y ago

https://archive.li/T5ZmS https://archive.li/T5ZmS

nobody9999 1y ago

I wonder how many current ICE/CBP employees are members of groups defined as extremist[0] by the Southern Poverty Law Center? I don't know the answer, but I hope (although I'm not sanguine about it) the answer is zero. That said, if DHS is prioritizing hiring such folks for ICE/CBP (as a paramilitary force bent on domination of the US controlled only by Trump and his minions), we're going to have serious problems getting the current administration to vacate on 20 January 2029, especially since these folks have a budget larger than most military forces around the world. Is that alarmist? I don't know. Then again, so many unprecedented, authoritarian and outright illegal things have been done by the current administration. As such, it wouldn't surprise me to see right-wing militia thugs on the ICE/CBP payroll. I hope I'm wrong. I fear I'm not. [0] https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/?meta_extremist_type=group https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/?meta_ex... Edit: Maybe I'm paranoid, but so many of this administration's actions seem to come right out of the fascist/authoritarian playbook (cf. https://archive.ph/xbm1E https://archive.ph/xbm1E although there are many other expositions of this as well).

actionfromafar 1y ago
Good luck having an election. All suspicious looking people approaching a polling station will get their identities very thoroughly checked, in a prison in some undisclosed location, until the election is fairly counted to be won by MAGA. Or any other number of ways to disrupt an election. Maybe not open Congress at all? edit: They wouldn't arrest citizens you say? https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
- nobody9999 1y ago
  >edit: They wouldn't arrest citizens you say? Who said that? Not me. In fact, they've been doing so for a while. And beating them, even shooting[0] them -- because they can -- with impunity. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/10/04/ice-shooting-chicago-guard/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/10/04/ice-shooting-chica...