11 ms·

Graphic designers and artists get ripped off, all the time; frequently, by nerds, who tend to do so, in a manner that insults the value of the artist's work. I

Graphic designers and artists get ripped off, all the time; frequently, by nerds, who tend to do so, in a manner that insults the value of the artist's work. It's difficult to get those kinds of creatives to donate their time (trust me on this, I'm always trying). I'm an ex-artist, and I'm a nerd. I can definitively say that creating good designs, is at least as difficult as creating good software, but seldom makes the kind of margin that you can, from software, so misappropriation hurts artists a lot more than programmers.

some_furry 1y ago
This is a weird thread for me to read, as someone who a) works primarily with developer tooling (and not even GUI tooling, I write cryptography stuff usually!), b) is very active in a vibrant community of artists that care about nerd software projects. I don't, as a rule, ever ask artists to contribute for free, but I still occasionally get gifted art from kind folks. (I'm more than happy to commission them for one-off work.) Artists tragically undercharge for their labor, so I don't think the goal should be "coax them into contributing for $0" so much as "coax them into becoming an available and reliable talent pool for your community at an agreeable rate". If they're enthusiastic enough, some might do free work from time to time, but that shouldn't be the expectation.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  It’s a long story, in my case. There’s a very good reason for me to be asking for gratis work. I regularly do tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of work for free.
  - imtringued 1y ago
    That only works if you form a team with the artist. It doesn't work when the person you're commissioning free stuff from is an external artist who is getting flooded by both paid and unpaid requests. Even a token amount will let them know to prioritize you over the freeloaders.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      This is true. I have paid friends free market rates for work; even though they would have done it for free. It’s a matter of Respect. It’s really amazing, how treating folks with simple Respect can change everything. I like working in teams, but I also participate in an organization, where we’re all expected to roll up our sleeves, and pitch in; often in an ad hoc fashion.
- galagawinkle489 1y ago
  Why should they work for pay on free software? Nobody expects to be paid to work on the software itself. Yet artists expect to be treated differently. If it is your job, then go do it as a job. But we all have jobs. Free software is what we do in our free time. Artists don't seem to have this distinction. They expect to be paid to do a hobby.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    It's just more common for artists to do small commission work on the side of a real job. 30 dollars for something is basically a donation or tip in my view, and the community can crowd fund for it the same way bug bounties work I think?
  - some_furry 1y ago
    > Yet artists expect to be treated differently. Because it's a different job! Your post is like asking, "Why is breathing free but food costs money?"
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Either you're implying that people should code for free, or your analogy is so vague as to be useless. Yeah it's a different job but they're both jobs. Why should one be free and one not be free?
      - some_furry 1y ago
        Because programmers consent to programming for free. That fact does not, in any way, obligate anyone else to.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        The question/skepticism is why the programmers are consenting to this but not the artists.
        1y ago
renewiltord 1y ago
Most fields just don’t have the same culture of collaborative everyone-wins that software does. Artists don’t produce CC art in anywhere close to the same influence as engineers produce software. This is probably due to some kind of compounding effect available in software that isn’t available in graphics. Software people love writing software to a degree where they’ll just give it away. You just won’t find artists doing the same at the same scale. Or architects, or structural engineers. Maybe the closest are some boat designs but even those are accidental. It might just be that we were lucky to have some Stallmans in this field early.
- bitwize 1y ago
  Fonts are an interesting case. The field of typography is kind of migrating from the "fuck you, pay me" ethic of the pure design space into a more software-like "everyone wins" state, with plenty of high-quality open-source fonts available, whereas previously we had to make do with bitmap-font droppings from proprietary operating systems, Bitstream Vera, and illegal-to-redistribute copies of Microsoft's web font pack. I think this is because there are plenty of software nerds with an interest in typography who want to see more free fonts available.
- WD-42 1y ago
  I think the collaborative nature of open source software dev is unlike anything else. I can upload some software in hopes that others find is useful and can build on top of it, or send back improvements. Not sure how that happens with a painting, even a digital one.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    Art tends to be a solitary vocation. But professional graphic designers, train to work in product-focused teams. They also are able to create collaborative suites of deliverables. Most developers will find utility in the work of graphic designers, as opposed to fine artists.
- pfannkuchen 1y ago
  Isn’t there a lot more compensation available in software? Like as a developer, you can make a lot of money without having to even value money highly. I think in other fields you don’t generally get compensated well unless you are gunning/grinding for it specifically. “For the love of the art” people in visual arts are painters or something like that, probably. Whereas with software you can end up with people who don’t value money that much and have enough already, at least to take a break from paid work or to not devote as much effort to their paid work. I imagine a lot of open source people are in that position?
palata 1y ago
Just for the record: as a developer, I have done a ton of free software contributions. I pretty much didn't get anything from it, except people complaining or asking me to do even more for them, for free. I don't know if that qualifies as "getting ripped off", but it's not exactly paying me either.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  I can relate, but artists get treated even worse. It seems to be a thing with creatives. Musicians also get ripped off a lot, as do writers. Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much. They seem to be in different Venn circles. In all of it, we do stuff because of the love of the craft. One of the deeper satisfactions, for me, is when folks appreciate my work (payment is almost irrelevant; except for "keeping score"). It's pretty infuriating, to have someone treat my work as if it is a cheap commodity. There's a famous Star Trek scene, where Scotty and his crew are being disciplined for a bar fight with some Klingons[0], and Scotty throws the first punch. I can relate. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rsZfcz3h1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rsZfcz3h1s
  - pseudalopex 1y ago
    > Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much. This says more of your perception I think. Many people attach value to art and music. Many people do not attach value to software.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      That's possible, but remember that I used to be an artist[0]. I have sold a number of works, and I'm familiar with attaching value to art. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40917886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40917886
      - pseudalopex 1y ago

some_furry 1y ago

This is a weird thread for me to read, as someone who a) works primarily with developer tooling (and not even GUI tooling, I write cryptography stuff usually!), b) is very active in a vibrant community of artists that care about nerd software projects. I don't, as a rule, ever ask artists to contribute for free, but I still occasionally get gifted art from kind folks. (I'm more than happy to commission them for one-off work.) Artists tragically undercharge for their labor, so I don't think the goal should be "coax them into contributing for $0" so much as "coax them into becoming an available and reliable talent pool for your community at an agreeable rate". If they're enthusiastic enough, some might do free work from time to time, but that shouldn't be the expectation.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
It’s a long story, in my case. There’s a very good reason for me to be asking for gratis work. I regularly do tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of work for free.
- imtringued 1y ago
  That only works if you form a team with the artist. It doesn't work when the person you're commissioning free stuff from is an external artist who is getting flooded by both paid and unpaid requests. Even a token amount will let them know to prioritize you over the freeloaders.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    This is true. I have paid friends free market rates for work; even though they would have done it for free. It’s a matter of Respect. It’s really amazing, how treating folks with simple Respect can change everything. I like working in teams, but I also participate in an organization, where we’re all expected to roll up our sleeves, and pitch in; often in an ad hoc fashion.
galagawinkle489 1y ago
Why should they work for pay on free software? Nobody expects to be paid to work on the software itself. Yet artists expect to be treated differently. If it is your job, then go do it as a job. But we all have jobs. Free software is what we do in our free time. Artists don't seem to have this distinction. They expect to be paid to do a hobby.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  It's just more common for artists to do small commission work on the side of a real job. 30 dollars for something is basically a donation or tip in my view, and the community can crowd fund for it the same way bug bounties work I think?
- some_furry 1y ago
  > Yet artists expect to be treated differently. Because it's a different job! Your post is like asking, "Why is breathing free but food costs money?"
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Either you're implying that people should code for free, or your analogy is so vague as to be useless. Yeah it's a different job but they're both jobs. Why should one be free and one not be free?
    - some_furry 1y ago
      Because programmers consent to programming for free. That fact does not, in any way, obligate anyone else to.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        The question/skepticism is why the programmers are consenting to this but not the artists.
        1y ago

renewiltord 1y ago

Most fields just don’t have the same culture of collaborative everyone-wins that software does. Artists don’t produce CC art in anywhere close to the same influence as engineers produce software. This is probably due to some kind of compounding effect available in software that isn’t available in graphics. Software people love writing software to a degree where they’ll just give it away. You just won’t find artists doing the same at the same scale. Or architects, or structural engineers. Maybe the closest are some boat designs but even those are accidental. It might just be that we were lucky to have some Stallmans in this field early.

bitwize 1y ago
Fonts are an interesting case. The field of typography is kind of migrating from the "fuck you, pay me" ethic of the pure design space into a more software-like "everyone wins" state, with plenty of high-quality open-source fonts available, whereas previously we had to make do with bitmap-font droppings from proprietary operating systems, Bitstream Vera, and illegal-to-redistribute copies of Microsoft's web font pack. I think this is because there are plenty of software nerds with an interest in typography who want to see more free fonts available.
WD-42 1y ago
I think the collaborative nature of open source software dev is unlike anything else. I can upload some software in hopes that others find is useful and can build on top of it, or send back improvements. Not sure how that happens with a painting, even a digital one.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  Art tends to be a solitary vocation. But professional graphic designers, train to work in product-focused teams. They also are able to create collaborative suites of deliverables. Most developers will find utility in the work of graphic designers, as opposed to fine artists.
pfannkuchen 1y ago
Isn’t there a lot more compensation available in software? Like as a developer, you can make a lot of money without having to even value money highly. I think in other fields you don’t generally get compensated well unless you are gunning/grinding for it specifically. “For the love of the art” people in visual arts are painters or something like that, probably. Whereas with software you can end up with people who don’t value money that much and have enough already, at least to take a break from paid work or to not devote as much effort to their paid work. I imagine a lot of open source people are in that position?

palata 1y ago

Just for the record: as a developer, I have done a ton of free software contributions. I pretty much didn't get anything from it, except people complaining or asking me to do even more for them, for free. I don't know if that qualifies as "getting ripped off", but it's not exactly paying me either.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
I can relate, but artists get treated even worse. It seems to be a thing with creatives. Musicians also get ripped off a lot, as do writers. Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much. They seem to be in different Venn circles. In all of it, we do stuff because of the love of the craft. One of the deeper satisfactions, for me, is when folks appreciate my work (payment is almost irrelevant; except for "keeping score"). It's pretty infuriating, to have someone treat my work as if it is a cheap commodity. There's a famous Star Trek scene, where Scotty and his crew are being disciplined for a bar fight with some Klingons[0], and Scotty throws the first punch. I can relate. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rsZfcz3h1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rsZfcz3h1s
- pseudalopex 1y ago
  > Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much. This says more of your perception I think. Many people attach value to art and music. Many people do not attach value to software.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    That's possible, but remember that I used to be an artist[0]. I have sold a number of works, and I'm familiar with attaching value to art. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40917886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40917886
    - pseudalopex 1y ago