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Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors.
by hshdhdhj4444 1y ago
Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors.
And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation.
Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely powerful and even recognizing one is acting purely out of those social norms in ways that would be very obviously insanely unethical if looked at even slightly objectively is very difficult.
- unnamed76ri 1y ago[flagged]
- SapporoChris 1y agoThe pendulum could swing the other way and instead animal rights activists could be looked upon with complete disdain. Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.
- mlrtime 1y agoDystopian comments are hot right now, but your comment really don't have basis when looking at long periods of time. We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.
- bdbdkdksk 1y agoConsidering the current US regime would like to revisit Wong Kim Ark (1898), the 19th amendment (1920) and the Voting Rights Act (1965) it's fair to say they're trying undo over 100 years of civil rights progress. Not to mention the growing ICE detention camp archipelago which is reminiscent of the era of Japanese Interment (1942-1946). Even economically - though we're in a K-shaped recovery - many of the labour protections and economic promises of the New Deal have been repealed since the Reagan era (by both parties).
- bobxmax 1y ago[dead]
- the_gipsy 1y agoWhen have dystopian comments NOT been hot? Maybe a few years in the 90's, between the fall of the USSR and the Balkan war?
- SapporoChris 1y agoI wasn't particularly being dystopian. I was thinking of the quote: "Progress has not followed a straight ascending line, but a spiral with rhythms of progress and retrogression, of evolution and dissolution." – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
- Imustaskforhelp 1y ago> Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed. There is a sense of optimism/hope I have in humanity, not in short term, but long term (decades later) I hope that the pendulum swings in an optimist manner. As a vegetarian who watched earthlings documentary, I recommend it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s I feel like the pendulum depends on all of us. We all gotta be hopeful and hope that other fellow beings also are like us and that gives hope I guess. We can swing the pendulum whatever side and its up to us in some aspect, so we personally need to do the best we can till the limit of our abilities
- squigz 1y agoIsn't it though? To be sure it very much depends on how you measure progress, but I do firmly believe that there is a slow but inexorable push forward in terms of equality, human rights, and various other issues. Yes, there will be hiccups, but we always move forward. (I don't comment this to imply there's not a lot of work we have to do, or that there's not seriously fucked up things going on right now; but hope - perhaps, even, a bit of faith - is important.)
- foresterre 1y agoIn his book Sapiens, Yuval Noah Harari called the farming of animals by humans "Nature's biggest fraud", which I always found to be an apt description. It makes me wonder if humans are the only animals who "farm" other animals in some way (not on the same scale as humans do of course). At the same time, it makes me wonder, "is being a parasitic animal socially better or worse than animals who farm fellow animals" ;).
- RobotToaster 1y agoThere are ants that farm and "milk" aphids https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know/farmer-ants-and-their-aphid-herds https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know/farmer-ants-a...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- chongli 1y agoAnts farm aphids and another species of ant farms fungus. Parasites are ubiquitous in nature and they range from the infamous cuckoo who lays eggs in other birds’ nests to tiny worms that infest the eyes of children to the horrifying tarantula hawk wasp that paralyses a spider and leads it to a burrow and then lays an egg which soon hatches and devours the still-living spider from the inside out!
- jhbadger 1y agoThere are many parasitoid wasps, of which the tarantula hawk wasp is only one. It's an sound evolutionary strategy even if their existence even horrified Charles Darwin (and these wasps were obviously the inspiration for the Xenomorph in the Alien movies)
- ethanpailes 1y agoSperm whales arguably farm by always dedicating at the top of the water column and measurably increasing the fertility of the seas they swim in. It seems possible that is deliberate given how much of their time they spend in the depths.
- b112 1y agoThere is an immense difference between factory farming, and traditional farming, of which most countries and places still do. I don't know what sort of fantasy lifestyle people think wild animals live, but it's constant fear of death all day long, fights with other of its kind over territory, constant predation, disease, pests (including bot flies and worms), starvation during population upswings, dying of thirst during drought, and very short lives. Compare that with protection from predators, medical care, vaccination, shelter, reliable food and clean water, and stress free lives until a quick and fast death. Lumping caring farmers in with factory farming is unfair, and again most of the world isn't the US. For animals such as cows? Peace, contentment, and stress free life is indeed a boon. Traditional farmers don't install automated cow scratchers for profit. They do it so animals are happy: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/h3SG72cKA9o https://m.youtube.com/shorts/h3SG72cKA9o
- Recursing 1y agoThe vast majority of farmed animals are factory farmed: https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/almost-all-livestock-in-the-united-states-is-factory-farmed https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/almost-all-livestoc... I agree that cows are an exception and live decent lives, but >95% of pigs, chickens, and fish are farmed in atrocious conditions, inside and outside the US: https://ourworldindata.org/how-many-animals-are-factory-farmed https://ourworldindata.org/how-many-animals-are-factory-farm...
- b112 1y agoThen be angry at factory farming, not eating meat. There are loads of people that still have a farm, just for them too. Yes, it's generally in rural areas in the West. Yet for thousands of years, people often just farmed to feed themselves! Factory farming sucks. Yet this can be fixed, note that you don't need to full grass feed (as an example) to end factory farming. You just need room for mild grazing. We can easily feed people as we do now, not have factory farming, but still not have the tens of thousands of acres of grassland to feed a herd for 100% grass grazing. This is just one example. End factory farming. You have my support for that. You'll lose it if you take my dinner away. I suspect many are the same.
- axus 1y agoThe difference being that enslaved humans actually were equal and are thriving now, the enslaved animal populations will crash when the farming stops. Though better to die free, than live as a slave.
- ozozozd 1y agoNot sure an individual dying and a whole species dying are quite the same thing.
- malcolmgreaves 1y ago> enslaved humans actually were equal and are thriving now Not true. Black folk in America are not thriving. The ancestors of the confederates have been working hard for generations.
- Imustaskforhelp 1y agoI actually agree. I have said this in another comment but I feel like its up to us. Slavery wasn't eradicated suddenly and became suddenly morally bad, I think that slowly but steadily we got better though till the point that now everyone mostly considers slavery morally evil. Lets hope the same can be the case with animals as well. I can't emphasize the impact of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s (earthlings documentary) had on me. I am mostly vegan (well aside from some eggs which I also can easily quit), I highly recommend it.
- DonHopkins 1y ago[flagged]
- Imustaskforhelp 1y agoI am not even American but I remember McCain more and more when I hear about this. he was so much better than this. I have hope that America/ any country can fix itself though, it isn't too late. Let's still hope things change for better since I feel like a lot of countries are becoming radicalized in that sense. I guess we gotta be worried about what discourse we allow in our society or have some better checks and balances all around the world to lessen radicalization I suppose. Also paradox of tolerance strikes again, should we be intolerant to intolerance as in this case, you decide.
- NoNameHaveI 1y ago"Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors." I predict that in the next 100 years, or less, consumption of animal products will be much the same taboo as tobacco consumption (in the USA) is today. Yes, they will still be around, but if you enjoy them openly, you will be a bit of a social pariah in many circles.
- lo_zamoyski 1y agoYou can find the abuse of animals morally objectionably (I do), but comparing it to human slavery rests on a grossly false moral equivalence between human beings and other animals. Indeed, it usually rests on sentiment or convention rather than a sound and rationally grounded objective ethics. Chattel slavery was first and foremost morally objectionable, because human beings have rights that conflict with its practice. Rights are rooted in two properties human beings have, namely, the ability to comprehend one's actions and one's situation, and the ability to freely choose between alternatives. If I can understand my actions and I can freely choose to act one way or another, then I am, in principle [1], a moral agent and thus morally responsible for my actions. But for me to be able to fulfill those responsibilities as a moral agent, certain conditions must be met and this claim on others to supply me with those conditions we call rights. Without those conditions, I cannot do what I have a responsibility to do. Non-human animals [2] lack these properties, which is why we do not hold them morally accountable, and because they don't have responsibilities, they do not have rights. (I realize that it has become customary to pull rights out of thin air without the slightest moral scruple or justification about doing so.) Of course, it would be morally objectionable for us to torment animals, but we are free to make use of animals in ways that do not contract the human good, rightly understood. [0] The only sound, objective basis for morality is human nature, which determines what actions accord with it and which contradict it. So, it is morally objectionable to torment animals, even though they have no rights, because - in short - it contradicts human nature and thus my good as a human being. Sadism is a serious defect. [1] I say "in principle", because in practice, as you'll recall, mens rea has legal significance for a reason. If I kill someone by accident, then I did not choose freely to kill him, and so I have not committed murder, only involuntary manslaughter or whatever. If I kill someone, because I believed he was a monster from the 7th dimension trying to kill me, then I did not comprehend my situation and thus the nature of my action. So, in practice, I may fail to exercise what in principle I have the power to do by virtue of my nature as a human being. But other animals do not have this power by nature. [2] To preempt the inevitable petty drive-by pedant, I define "human" as any animal with these two properties, so according to this view, an intelligent alien from another planet would also be human, despite occupying a place in a separate phylogenetic tree or whatever.
- FridayoLeary 1y ago
- MagicMoonlight 1y ago30 million years in and vegans still haven’t won. Why do you expect that to change?
- gs17 1y ago30 million years of what? Go back a few centuries and you could say the same statement about slavery, since all of civilization is a rounding error on tens of millions of years.
- malcolmgreaves 1y ago> Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. Absolutely not. People are so much more important than pigs. Or dogs. Or any other animal. This isn’t a comparison a rational, empathetic person would make.
- MyOutfitIsVague 1y agoMost rational, empathetic people generally look down on animal abuse and animal torture. Humans are more important than any other animal to me, but it's not a total dichotomy that makes the suffering of all other thinking, feeling animals meaningless. Very few rational, empathetic people would be entirely unmoved by their pet dog being killed, and are more than a little perturbed imagining farming dogs for meat like we do other animals, despite the fact that cows and pigs do have feelings, do suffer, do play and have social bonds, and do have similar levels of intelligence to dogs. We're fortunate enough that we only have one species of human around to worry about. Imagine the political turmoil if we still had many different human species in modern society and had to deal with this kind of debate.
- ultrarunner 1y agoIt's already happening. A story about mistreatment of a dog garners reactions like "how can someone act like that to a fur-baby". Same action toward a person and it's elided over as baseline expected violence. By the same token, quasi-deification of animals has happened for a very long time, and all it takes is a mutation of this idea to spread across popular culture.
- account42 1y agoThat's just because dogs and other pets are used as ersatz babies and are thus afforded the the same level of moral outrage when harmed. We accept base violence against adults but not against small children.
- rafark 1y ago> Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. A lot of people already do. Hopefully technology (robots) and science (lab grown meat) can accelerate this.
- elif 1y agoYo I've been a vegan for over 30 years and personally I wish that were true, but honestly I don't see groupthink on this topic ever shifting substantially. Ideology which confirms ones desires are stronger than socially collective cerebralization about theoretical ideals. I actually think AI will be granted empathy far sooner than animals simply due to its ability to speak and thus engage in the ideological layer.
- dudeofea 1y agoCultures that have many offspring usually care less about animal welfare (human and non-human) than those that have less offspring. Cultures that have many offspring usually become the dominant culture of future generations. Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't see how you can be right and I can be wrong.
- wingtw 1y agohm, if i understand you correctly (non-native speaker here) you are advocating for plant based diet - and if thats the case, I don't agree with you. It might be possible to live on plant based diet in Mediterranean, but here up north where i reside (and even further in Arctic) it is, I think, next to impossible to survive only on plants - human body, afaik, cannot get everything that is needed in this environment, purely from plants. Taking maybe a very graphic example to get the point across - Eskimos did not learn to hunt whales (which was and is for them very dangerous) for fun but to survive - to counter the cold you need to consume more calories than you can get from (with reasonable amounts of) plants. (of course in arctic, theres whole another issue of growing anything ). Ofc one might say that in today's world everything can be flown in, supplements can be taken - but what's the cost ? to the body, to the environment where the plants/supplements are manufactured...?
- katbyte 1y agoNo just that factory farming animals maybe shouldn’t be allowed. I have no problem with eating free range animals that live outside and are humanly treated and slaughtered even if the price goes up. I do have a problem with animal abuse which factory farming is.
- scotty79 1y agoVery limited number of decades have passed since we considered torturing other humans prime entertainment do the whole family. Give us a minute.
- ridiculous_leke 1y agoI am with you on principle. But how to get animal protein without harming animals? Can't do milk & related products because of lactose intolerance and other vegetarian sources are not that protein dense.
- aziaziazi 1y agoDo you need that density though ? Also animals products contains basically 0 fibers and not much water so you also gotta plants anyway to get a fit meal. Some of the best protein choices: - quinoa - tempeh (fermented soy) - tofu (not much fibers here but many minerals and water) - brewer's yeast (but in its own, but you can add it on everything, it’s delicious and cheap) - if you’re into processed stuff (like whey and flours) there’s many’s proteins extracts like peas, soy, beans… also TSP and TPP for cooking convenience.
- hollerith 1y agoYou don't know what future generations are going to believe. The evolution of beliefs and norms are much too complicated for any person to predict. The rhetorical ploy you just tried is only slightly more credible than "I'm a time traveler from the future. Here's what the people of the future think of the people of the present."