9 ms·

I'm not vegan, but I'm always really surprised by the difference in how we see cats and pigs. See e.g. https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-ve

I'm not vegan, but I'm always really surprised by the difference in how we see cats and pigs. See e.g. https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-ventilation-shutdown-coronavirus/ https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-venti... https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_farming https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_f... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting The US also has basically no animal welfare laws for the vast majority of its animals

ricardobeat 1y ago
Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment! The amount of cruel farming practices, chemicals, unsustainable methods etc that the US uses while being forbidden in the rest of the world is inexcusable.
- esperent 1y ago
  > if cats tasted good How do you know they don't? By all accounts dogs taste good, but there's only a small number of cultures that eat them.
  - Recursing 1y ago
    Cats are also widely eaten: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat But I think eating someone doesn't need to imply causing them as much suffering as our current farming practices do
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  They probably don't taste bad...I mean, most animals somewhat taste good (crocodiles, frogs, hogs, deers, pigeons, eels etc). Now, it would be utterly ineffective to try to breed cats for meat, which is IMHO why we have such a small variety of regular meat. We chose the species that were the most convenient, regardless of any other inherent ethical consideration. So for better or worse the line is purely arbitrary, and people's pet pig being off-limit by virtue of being declared a pet is an example of that.
- petesergeant 1y ago
  > Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment! I don't think that's true: dog meat isn't widely eaten, but enough countries do eat it to suggest it's palatable.
  - isoprophlex 1y ago
    Expensive to breed carnivorous animals though. Chickens, cows, etc. you can directly raise on cheap vegetable matter.
  - unnamed76ri 1y ago
    I used to work in the pet industry and an oft cited statistic was that 1,000,000 cats and dogs are euthanized every year in the US. It would never happen for cultural reasons but, it seems like China could be a booming market for selling these animals as meat instead of letting it all go to waste.
    - petesergeant 1y ago
      I think veterinary drug residue is a big concern here too
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        Presumably these cats and dogs would be slaughtered the same way that current plate-bound cats and dogs are slaughtered. The bigger issue would be how these animals are bred. Are the eaten cats and dogs typically more muscular and fatter than those raised as pets?
- mlrtime 1y ago
  I bet you if you haven't eaten in 3 days the cat would taste pretty good to you too. I'm partially kidding, but we are afforded to have these discussions in the comfort in our home when we have an abundance of food around us available 24/7. (Speaking of mostly of developed nations)
__alexs 1y ago
[flagged]
grumpy-de-sre 1y ago
I suspect concerns about the impacts on agriculture are a big part of the reason why the Chinese authorities haven't clamped down on this stuff yet.
hshdhdhj4444 1y ago
Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation. Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely powerful and even recognizing one is acting purely out of those social norms in ways that would be very obviously insanely unethical if looked at even slightly objectively is very difficult.
- unnamed76ri 1y ago
  [flagged]
- SapporoChris 1y ago
  The pendulum could swing the other way and instead animal rights activists could be looked upon with complete disdain. Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.
  - mlrtime 1y ago
    Dystopian comments are hot right now, but your comment really don't have basis when looking at long periods of time. We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.
    - bdbdkdksk 1y ago
      Considering the current US regime would like to revisit Wong Kim Ark (1898), the 19th amendment (1920) and the Voting Rights Act (1965) it's fair to say they're trying undo over 100 years of civil rights progress. Not to mention the growing ICE detention camp archipelago which is reminiscent of the era of Japanese Interment (1942-1946). Even economically - though we're in a K-shaped recovery - many of the labour protections and economic promises of the New Deal have been repealed since the Reagan era (by both parties).
PeterStuer 1y ago
I would venture history explains the difference. Cats were traditionally used for pest control, their main value being their living activity, and these days mostly bred to be cute house companions. Pigs otoh were traditionally used as a protein source, their main value being their well fed carcass, and today still bred mainly to produce delicious bacon. I think most people neither wish cats, pigs, or any other animal cruel treatment, and that goes for non-vegetarians as well. I do agree most unsavory maltreatment practices do not get the attention they deserve.
Thorrez 1y ago
People have been charged/convicted of torturing chickens: https://whyy.org/articles/upper-darby-pennsylvania-sentenced-probation-animal-torture-killing/ https://whyy.org/articles/upper-darby-pennsylvania-sentenced... https://www.wave3.com/2023/04/25/man-accused-abusing-chickens-social-media-video-turns-himself/ https://www.wave3.com/2023/04/25/man-accused-abusing-chicken... I believe the difference is if you're causing the animals pain because you enjoy the pain itself vs causing the animals pain to provide food.
- aziaziazi 1y ago
  Those convictions are extremely rare though. France even made illegal to fact to denounce such (illegal too) acts if this denunciation could harm the farmer. https://welfarm.fr/adoption-de-lamendement-le-fur-une-attaque-frontale-a-la-liberte-dinformer-sur-la-condition-des-animaux-delevage/ https://welfarm.fr/adoption-de-lamendement-le-fur-une-attaqu...
deepvibrations 1y ago
Knowing this, is there are a reason why you Aren't vegan?
- harimau777 1y ago
  Not the OP, but: I try to minimize the amount of meat that I eat; however, at this time I don't think that veganism is a viable strategy for optimal health for most Americans. That's particularly the case for athletes. It's simply too difficult to get enough protein and minimize carbs on a plant based diet. That's not to say that it's impossible. I have a friend who is a vegan bodybuilder but it requires a lot of extra work on her part. That extra work is a big ask for people who are just trying to hold their lives together. Zooming out from food, there isn't a widely available alternative to leather or wool if you care about the textile's performance (strength, durability, insulation when wet, flame retardation, etc.). That's particularly true if you care about avoiding petrochemicals.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ultrarunner 1y ago
    What athletics do you participate in, and what are your macro targets?
    - harimau777 1y ago
      Weightlifting and martial arts I try for the classic "1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight a day" and I try to limit carbs whenever I have a chance because I already have a habit of eating too many of them.
      - deepvibrations 1y ago
        Nimai Delgado, Karl Bruder, Torre Washington, Zack Belknap and many others are disproving the "vegan protein is hard" myth.
  - 1y ago
harimau777 1y ago
I am 100% against mistreating any animals and especially animals as intelligent as pigs. However, I can understand why people don't think of pigs as highly as cats & dogs considering how dirty they are. I don't mean the rolling around in mud thing; that's just a logical way to cool off. Instead I mean the fact that they will apparently eat almost anything including feces and other pigs. Edit: Just to be clear, I realize that's not a rational reason to think poorly of pigs. I'm just saying that I can understand why people feel that way.
wetpaws 1y ago
[dead]
dspillett 1y ago
> the difference in how we see cats and pigs Even before we bred much larger pigs, there was far more meat on them, and they were far easier to corral. It comes down to those efficiencies rather than any moralising about the intelligence and awareness of the animals. As an animal lover, particularly cats, and active member of People Eating Tasty Animals, I don't have a problem with cultures that eat animals we consider pets, as I know the pigs and cows I eat are more intelligent than many are comfortable thinking. My concern is how the animals are treated before being food which comes down to the factory farming debate and similar: a life of torture before being eaten compared to a life of care before being eaten.
pryelluw 1y ago
Futurama gets it once again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_with_Popplers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_with_Popplers

ricardobeat 1y ago

Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment! The amount of cruel farming practices, chemicals, unsustainable methods etc that the US uses while being forbidden in the rest of the world is inexcusable.

esperent 1y ago
> if cats tasted good How do you know they don't? By all accounts dogs taste good, but there's only a small number of cultures that eat them.
- Recursing 1y ago
  Cats are also widely eaten: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat But I think eating someone doesn't need to imply causing them as much suffering as our current farming practices do
makeitdouble 1y ago
They probably don't taste bad...I mean, most animals somewhat taste good (crocodiles, frogs, hogs, deers, pigeons, eels etc). Now, it would be utterly ineffective to try to breed cats for meat, which is IMHO why we have such a small variety of regular meat. We chose the species that were the most convenient, regardless of any other inherent ethical consideration. So for better or worse the line is purely arbitrary, and people's pet pig being off-limit by virtue of being declared a pet is an example of that.
petesergeant 1y ago
> Don’t worry, if cats tasted good they would be receiving the same treatment! I don't think that's true: dog meat isn't widely eaten, but enough countries do eat it to suggest it's palatable.
- isoprophlex 1y ago
  Expensive to breed carnivorous animals though. Chickens, cows, etc. you can directly raise on cheap vegetable matter.
- unnamed76ri 1y ago
  I used to work in the pet industry and an oft cited statistic was that 1,000,000 cats and dogs are euthanized every year in the US. It would never happen for cultural reasons but, it seems like China could be a booming market for selling these animals as meat instead of letting it all go to waste.
  - petesergeant 1y ago
    I think veterinary drug residue is a big concern here too
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      Presumably these cats and dogs would be slaughtered the same way that current plate-bound cats and dogs are slaughtered. The bigger issue would be how these animals are bred. Are the eaten cats and dogs typically more muscular and fatter than those raised as pets?
mlrtime 1y ago
I bet you if you haven't eaten in 3 days the cat would taste pretty good to you too. I'm partially kidding, but we are afforded to have these discussions in the comfort in our home when we have an abundance of food around us available 24/7. (Speaking of mostly of developed nations)

__alexs 1y ago

[flagged]

grumpy-de-sre 1y ago

I suspect concerns about the impacts on agriculture are a big part of the reason why the Chinese authorities haven't clamped down on this stuff yet.

hshdhdhj4444 1y ago

Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation. Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely powerful and even recognizing one is acting purely out of those social norms in ways that would be very obviously insanely unethical if looked at even slightly objectively is very difficult.

unnamed76ri 1y ago
[flagged]
SapporoChris 1y ago
The pendulum could swing the other way and instead animal rights activists could be looked upon with complete disdain. Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.
- mlrtime 1y ago
  Dystopian comments are hot right now, but your comment really don't have basis when looking at long periods of time. We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.
  - bdbdkdksk 1y ago
    Considering the current US regime would like to revisit Wong Kim Ark (1898), the 19th amendment (1920) and the Voting Rights Act (1965) it's fair to say they're trying undo over 100 years of civil rights progress. Not to mention the growing ICE detention camp archipelago which is reminiscent of the era of Japanese Interment (1942-1946). Even economically - though we're in a K-shaped recovery - many of the labour protections and economic promises of the New Deal have been repealed since the Reagan era (by both parties).

PeterStuer 1y ago

I would venture history explains the difference. Cats were traditionally used for pest control, their main value being their living activity, and these days mostly bred to be cute house companions. Pigs otoh were traditionally used as a protein source, their main value being their well fed carcass, and today still bred mainly to produce delicious bacon. I think most people neither wish cats, pigs, or any other animal cruel treatment, and that goes for non-vegetarians as well. I do agree most unsavory maltreatment practices do not get the attention they deserve.

Thorrez 1y ago

People have been charged/convicted of torturing chickens: https://whyy.org/articles/upper-darby-pennsylvania-sentenced-probation-animal-torture-killing/ https://whyy.org/articles/upper-darby-pennsylvania-sentenced... https://www.wave3.com/2023/04/25/man-accused-abusing-chickens-social-media-video-turns-himself/ https://www.wave3.com/2023/04/25/man-accused-abusing-chicken... I believe the difference is if you're causing the animals pain because you enjoy the pain itself vs causing the animals pain to provide food.

aziaziazi 1y ago
Those convictions are extremely rare though. France even made illegal to fact to denounce such (illegal too) acts if this denunciation could harm the farmer. https://welfarm.fr/adoption-de-lamendement-le-fur-une-attaque-frontale-a-la-liberte-dinformer-sur-la-condition-des-animaux-delevage/ https://welfarm.fr/adoption-de-lamendement-le-fur-une-attaqu...

deepvibrations 1y ago

Knowing this, is there are a reason why you Aren't vegan?

harimau777 1y ago
Not the OP, but: I try to minimize the amount of meat that I eat; however, at this time I don't think that veganism is a viable strategy for optimal health for most Americans. That's particularly the case for athletes. It's simply too difficult to get enough protein and minimize carbs on a plant based diet. That's not to say that it's impossible. I have a friend who is a vegan bodybuilder but it requires a lot of extra work on her part. That extra work is a big ask for people who are just trying to hold their lives together. Zooming out from food, there isn't a widely available alternative to leather or wool if you care about the textile's performance (strength, durability, insulation when wet, flame retardation, etc.). That's particularly true if you care about avoiding petrochemicals.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ultrarunner 1y ago
  What athletics do you participate in, and what are your macro targets?
  - harimau777 1y ago
    Weightlifting and martial arts I try for the classic "1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight a day" and I try to limit carbs whenever I have a chance because I already have a habit of eating too many of them.
    - deepvibrations 1y ago
      Nimai Delgado, Karl Bruder, Torre Washington, Zack Belknap and many others are disproving the "vegan protein is hard" myth.
- 1y ago

harimau777 1y ago

I am 100% against mistreating any animals and especially animals as intelligent as pigs. However, I can understand why people don't think of pigs as highly as cats & dogs considering how dirty they are. I don't mean the rolling around in mud thing; that's just a logical way to cool off. Instead I mean the fact that they will apparently eat almost anything including feces and other pigs. Edit: Just to be clear, I realize that's not a rational reason to think poorly of pigs. I'm just saying that I can understand why people feel that way.

wetpaws 1y ago

[dead]

dspillett 1y ago

> the difference in how we see cats and pigs Even before we bred much larger pigs, there was far more meat on them, and they were far easier to corral. It comes down to those efficiencies rather than any moralising about the intelligence and awareness of the animals. As an animal lover, particularly cats, and active member of People Eating Tasty Animals, I don't have a problem with cultures that eat animals we consider pets, as I know the pigs and cows I eat are more intelligent than many are comfortable thinking. My concern is how the animals are treated before being food which comes down to the factory farming debate and similar: a life of torture before being eaten compared to a life of care before being eaten.

pryelluw 1y ago

Futurama gets it once again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_with_Popplers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_with_Popplers