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Why does an OtA update even have the ability to brick the entire vehicle? The infotainment system should be completely isolated from the driving system.

by thayne 1y ago

_ea1k 1y ago
I'm guessing that it has features like "remote start" and that these features weren't designed particularly well.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  What does it mean to "start" an EV?
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    Pre-warm the battery, pre-heat or cool the interior, enable the defrosters.
  - monocularvision 1y ago
    Turn on the temperature control system?
  - jabroni_salad 1y ago
    it clicks a relay. Just like with ICE vehicles people usually use it to warm up their car in the winter. Also, batteries may need to be preconditioned if too hot or cold. A lot of EVs let you set your ideal departure time in a widget as opposed to using a remote though.
  - _ea1k 1y ago
    This is a 4xe. It is a gas jeep with an overpriced, undersized battery and motor bolted on. It can be started just like all the other gas cars. Although even with full EVs, there's a reasonable concept of a "start". Some even let you essentially unlock and allow driving remotely, even if the local driver doesn't have a key. That's useful sometimes.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
SilverElfin 1y ago
I’ve noticed that newer cars seem to get updates that affect performance. Things like how they shift gears.
varjag 1y ago
As long as it exchanges information (mundane things like muting the music when parking sensors have to be heard, requesting battery/fuel status for advising the next fill stop etc) the isolation can't be entirely complete.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  How about read only over an optic cable?
  - varjag 1y ago
    I wasn't really talking about galvanic isolation. And on modern vehicles instruments and infotainment tend to run hypervised on the same physical host. Thing is as long as you exchange information there's always potential for logic coupling allowing the trouble to cross the boundary. Not to mention the basic rate excess/denial of service situations.
Consultant32452 1y ago
The infotainment system on my car can make changes to the suspension. Can change from street to track mode and even has a launch mode I can initiate for starting a timed 0-60, etc. I can also put the car into valet mode so it won’t go fast. If I forget the valet mode password I am told I have to buy a very expensive replacement because it can’t be unlocked by a dealer.
Someone1234 1y ago
You're starting out with an assumption, that this is an OTA update for the infotainment system, and then conclude this incident shouldn't be possible. The problem is the assumption. This is a OTA vehicle update. It has the ability to update the infotainment, ECU, ECM, TCM, and BCM. Multiple manufacturers have been able to release recalls that fix major vehicle defects (safety, reliability, and performance). That wouldn't be possible without OTA updates that update core vehicle computer systems. Unclear where this idea that OTA = Infotainment came from. I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025.
- SirFatty 1y ago
  "I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025." What does that have to do with OP's comment? And their point is still valid, and OTA update should not be able to brick a vehicle, regardless of the system receiving the update. And regardless if "they all can do it".
  - Someone1234 1y ago
    It has everything to do with it. If OTA updates can update core vehicle computer systems, in ways that can correct safety, performance, and reliability problems then they can also brick that vehicle. The manufacturer has the ability to push an update that reprograms computers that control how physical components behave in a vehicle. By the very nature of that; they can push good or evil updates.
    - bloomingeek 1y ago
      Which is a reason the market for "dumb" cars is tightening up. Both my cars are "smart" and sometimes I wonder if I really own them. It bothers me that the maker can cause an update without my permission. (Yes, I know that's the world we've been living in for a while now.)
  - aardvarkr 1y ago
    Any update can brick your device if done poorly. This device just happens to be a car. You misunderstood what OP was saying. They claimed that an update to the infotainment system shouldn’t be able to brick the other systems in the car. The response points out the car’s OTA update subroutine has access to update every critical system in the car by design. It’s flawed logic to assume that OTA updates only affect the infotainment system.
ActorNightly 1y ago
Because cost. Same reason why dash clusters and infotainment systems are now all monitors - its actually way cheaper to use those than analog gauges. The software is built on a famous bullshit paradigm of "never rewrite, always reuse", and as a result shit gets patched together without any concern of how everything cooperates. Now with hybrid or electrical drives, a motor controller is basically a package that runs its own software, which then interfaces with the rest of the car. And OTA updates can overwrite its firmware. The only manufacturer that has avoided most issues is Toyota, since they have been doing hybrids for quite some time. Other companies are just starting on this path and to catch up, they can't be bothered to do software deep dives and figure shit out.
0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
Why does the update even happen while in motion?
- antiloper 1y ago
  The article doesn't go into a lot of details, but it only says that the bug happens while in motion, not that the software update itself happened while in motion: > The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem.
- PKop 1y ago
  The problem is worse than "just don't update on the fly while driving". The update happened while not driving; the bug causing the failure mode of shutting down power and engine happened later while driving. There's nowhere to hide from these types of problems it seems.
joezydeco 1y ago
They're not isolated anymore, Tesla set this precedent and now everyone is trying to copy them. Volvo is having the same set of problems.
uptown 1y ago
I had an OTA update brick my Tahoe infotainment system. Now that backup cameras are standard requirements, those were all unusable. Also affected things like the clicking sound you hear when you use your turn signal. That was completely silent. Cost me ~$2k to get it fixed and wasn't covered under warranty. Good stuff. I've disable future "updates".
- quesera 1y ago
  This is a lawsuit, to recover repair costs and any loss of use. It's not worth it, but it's necessary.
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  An FYI for the future, but backup cameras are considered a safety system and manufacturers are required to repair issues they've caused in safety systems regardless of warranty status. The appropriate escalation if the manufacturer doesn't recognize this is to get NHTSA involved with a safety complaint [0]. That's the main way recalls happen. [0] https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem
stevenhubertron 1y ago
it was a telematics update
ncr100 1y ago
It looks like there are two updates - the infotainment AND the other one .. firmware of some thingies. And the infotainment is a PREREQUISITE to the other one. That is what I surmised from listening to the "don't do this until we fix it please" notice from Stellantis from this weekend.

Why does an OtA update even have the ability to brick the entire vehicle? The infotainment system should be completely isolated from the driving system.

by thayne 1y ago

Why does an OtA update even have the ability to brick the entire vehicle? The infotainment system should be completely isolated from the driving system.

_ea1k 1y ago

I'm guessing that it has features like "remote start" and that these features weren't designed particularly well.

SoftTalker 1y ago
What does it mean to "start" an EV?
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Pre-warm the battery, pre-heat or cool the interior, enable the defrosters.
- monocularvision 1y ago
  Turn on the temperature control system?
- jabroni_salad 1y ago
  it clicks a relay. Just like with ICE vehicles people usually use it to warm up their car in the winter. Also, batteries may need to be preconditioned if too hot or cold. A lot of EVs let you set your ideal departure time in a widget as opposed to using a remote though.
- _ea1k 1y ago
  This is a 4xe. It is a gas jeep with an overpriced, undersized battery and motor bolted on. It can be started just like all the other gas cars. Although even with full EVs, there's a reasonable concept of a "start". Some even let you essentially unlock and allow driving remotely, even if the local driver doesn't have a key. That's useful sometimes.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

SilverElfin 1y ago

I’ve noticed that newer cars seem to get updates that affect performance. Things like how they shift gears.

varjag 1y ago

As long as it exchanges information (mundane things like muting the music when parking sensors have to be heard, requesting battery/fuel status for advising the next fill stop etc) the isolation can't be entirely complete.

dotancohen 1y ago
How about read only over an optic cable?
- varjag 1y ago
  I wasn't really talking about galvanic isolation. And on modern vehicles instruments and infotainment tend to run hypervised on the same physical host. Thing is as long as you exchange information there's always potential for logic coupling allowing the trouble to cross the boundary. Not to mention the basic rate excess/denial of service situations.

Consultant32452 1y ago

The infotainment system on my car can make changes to the suspension. Can change from street to track mode and even has a launch mode I can initiate for starting a timed 0-60, etc. I can also put the car into valet mode so it won’t go fast. If I forget the valet mode password I am told I have to buy a very expensive replacement because it can’t be unlocked by a dealer.

Someone1234 1y ago

You're starting out with an assumption, that this is an OTA update for the infotainment system, and then conclude this incident shouldn't be possible. The problem is the assumption. This is a OTA vehicle update. It has the ability to update the infotainment, ECU, ECM, TCM, and BCM. Multiple manufacturers have been able to release recalls that fix major vehicle defects (safety, reliability, and performance). That wouldn't be possible without OTA updates that update core vehicle computer systems. Unclear where this idea that OTA = Infotainment came from. I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025.

SirFatty 1y ago
"I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025." What does that have to do with OP's comment? And their point is still valid, and OTA update should not be able to brick a vehicle, regardless of the system receiving the update. And regardless if "they all can do it".
- Someone1234 1y ago
  It has everything to do with it. If OTA updates can update core vehicle computer systems, in ways that can correct safety, performance, and reliability problems then they can also brick that vehicle. The manufacturer has the ability to push an update that reprograms computers that control how physical components behave in a vehicle. By the very nature of that; they can push good or evil updates.
  - bloomingeek 1y ago
    Which is a reason the market for "dumb" cars is tightening up. Both my cars are "smart" and sometimes I wonder if I really own them. It bothers me that the maker can cause an update without my permission. (Yes, I know that's the world we've been living in for a while now.)
- aardvarkr 1y ago
  Any update can brick your device if done poorly. This device just happens to be a car. You misunderstood what OP was saying. They claimed that an update to the infotainment system shouldn’t be able to brick the other systems in the car. The response points out the car’s OTA update subroutine has access to update every critical system in the car by design. It’s flawed logic to assume that OTA updates only affect the infotainment system.

ActorNightly 1y ago

Because cost. Same reason why dash clusters and infotainment systems are now all monitors - its actually way cheaper to use those than analog gauges. The software is built on a famous bullshit paradigm of "never rewrite, always reuse", and as a result shit gets patched together without any concern of how everything cooperates. Now with hybrid or electrical drives, a motor controller is basically a package that runs its own software, which then interfaces with the rest of the car. And OTA updates can overwrite its firmware. The only manufacturer that has avoided most issues is Toyota, since they have been doing hybrids for quite some time. Other companies are just starting on this path and to catch up, they can't be bothered to do software deep dives and figure shit out.

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago

Why does the update even happen while in motion?

antiloper 1y ago
The article doesn't go into a lot of details, but it only says that the bug happens while in motion, not that the software update itself happened while in motion: > The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem.
PKop 1y ago
The problem is worse than "just don't update on the fly while driving". The update happened while not driving; the bug causing the failure mode of shutting down power and engine happened later while driving. There's nowhere to hide from these types of problems it seems.

joezydeco 1y ago

They're not isolated anymore, Tesla set this precedent and now everyone is trying to copy them. Volvo is having the same set of problems.

uptown 1y ago

I had an OTA update brick my Tahoe infotainment system. Now that backup cameras are standard requirements, those were all unusable. Also affected things like the clicking sound you hear when you use your turn signal. That was completely silent. Cost me ~$2k to get it fixed and wasn't covered under warranty. Good stuff. I've disable future "updates".

quesera 1y ago
This is a lawsuit, to recover repair costs and any loss of use. It's not worth it, but it's necessary.
AlotOfReading 1y ago
An FYI for the future, but backup cameras are considered a safety system and manufacturers are required to repair issues they've caused in safety systems regardless of warranty status. The appropriate escalation if the manufacturer doesn't recognize this is to get NHTSA involved with a safety complaint [0]. That's the main way recalls happen. [0] https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem

stevenhubertron 1y ago

it was a telematics update

ncr100 1y ago

It looks like there are two updates - the infotainment AND the other one .. firmware of some thingies. And the infotainment is a PREREQUISITE to the other one. That is what I surmised from listening to the "don't do this until we fix it please" notice from Stellantis from this weekend.