5 ms·
Why the end of support for Windows 10 is uniquely troubling
- kwanbix 1y agoIt is troubling because: * Windows 10 (IoT LTSC) will actually be supported to 2032. * Microsoft is forcing hardware requirements that are just there because reasons as Win 11 IoT/LTSC have lesser requirements. * Because Microsoft sold Win 10 till 2023, so it is basically shooting it down after 2 years. * Because Win10 still has 40% of market share.
- thisisnotauser 1y agoAll the security issues patched in software have either been there since it was released or are introduced with feature updates. As a security veteran, the end of patching is hardly as dire as this imagines. Update: Patching has always been security theater for systems where security actually matters (national security), because it's assumed nation states already know vulnerabilities often years before there's a public disclosure or patch. These patches have always been to deal with nuisance actors impacting non-critical users. Besides, the user getting tricked is always the biggest risk, and patching does nothing at all for that. If you care about security, don't get on the internet. The device you're using right now is probably already trivial compromised by unpatched vulnerabilities, if not known only by a state actor than a spyware company. Pretending this isn't the case is worse than discontinuing vanity security theater. This is like everyone freaking out because they're shutting down the TSA. The idea that patches are important and effective is more dangerous than not patching.
- crazygringo 1y agoI really hope you're not a "security veteran." Because you're guaranteeing to us that nobody will ever find another vulnerability in the existing codebase of Windows 10? That's just a silly thing to say.
- thisisnotauser 1y agoThat's not what I said.
- skeeter2020 1y agoHow about instead of just the simple denial you clarify your original statement, because it's very confusing.
- vachina 1y agoIt actually is not dire, if you don’t expose your Windows installation open to the internet (and disabling ipv6). You’re much more likely pwned by phishing or running malware from software updates.
- blindriver 1y agoYou forget about browsers and malware and bad websites forcing downloads onto your machine.
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- spacebanana7 1y agoMany Microsoft customers would still stay on Windows XP if they could.
- forgotmypw17 1y agoYes, they would. And it valid for them to want to do so. And the fact that software developers think that they "know better" is part of the problem with our software world today.
- graemep 1y agoExactly. If customers prefer your old product to your new product there is something wrong. It is not just MS that does this.
- greggsy 1y agoI disagree. If there is a fundamental architectural issue with the current platform that is getting in the way of progress, the right thing to do is to fix it. By ‘progress’ I mean compatibility with new innovations like DirectX or some new instruction set that enable dumb things like transparency, or spacial audio, as well genuinely useful things. You simply can’t bolt that onto an 18 year old system without breaking things irreversibly. It also means depreciation of insecure ways of doing things. MS’ attempt to get TPMs into every desktop is clumsy, but it serves a greater good. None of those things require W11 to operate, but I can see why they needed to make it look fancier than W10 to convince people that it’s somehow ‘better’.
- graemep 1y ago> None of those things require W11 to operate, but I can see why they needed to make it look fancier than W10 to convince people that it’s somehow ‘better’. It has the opposite effect. People do not like the fancier look. It also depends on what you mean by progress. if it is genuinely better for customers why do you have to force them to use it?
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- crazygringo 1y ago> Windows 10 is used by 42.8% of all Windows computer users worldwide. By contrast, when support for Windows 8 ended in January 2016, only 3.7% of Windows users were still using it. Only 2.2% of Windows users were still using Windows 8.1 when support ended in January 2023. > Many of the computers still running Windows 10 can’t upgrade to Windows 11. In 2022, hardware researchers found that 43% of all computers running Windows 10 could not move to Windows 11 — which equaled around 400 million computers at that time. Wow. This is actually pretty troubling. I naively assumed Microsoft was just following previous practice and that this wasn't a big deal, but this is actually... insane.
- hobs 1y agoNope, windows 11 was extremely shoehorned in and the public has no obvious need or benefit for it, which is why they tried to auto update everyone and then force an out of support situation. This is the same microsoft that said win 10 would be the last version of windows and that they'd basically be patching and working on different versions of it forever.
- jamespo 1y agoThat was never an official MS statement, not that this makes the situation any better
- RajT88 1y agoApparently that quote comes from Jerry Nixon at a Build conference in 2015. This is kind of splitting hairs on what counts as "official".
- cjbgkagh 1y agoIt was an announcement made by MS surrogates and it was promoted as true internally at MS, I personally head it through the grapevine from current MS employees. They really did try to get people to believe it as part of their billion devices push. I didn’t believe it because I know MS lies all the time, which is probably why they don’t make official statements about such things and generally work through surrogates. Maybe next time they can create a poly market bet.
- Topgamer7 1y agoI haven't run windows in half a decade at this point. I had Win11 running in a vm, and just the amount of ads it would show in the task bar or notifications at idle leaves me flabbergasted.
- jollyllama 1y agoIndeed, I'm regularly dumbfounded that enterprise users put up with this. In a business environment, it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.
- daveoc64 1y agoThey should be using Windows 11 Enterprise, where those features can be disabled easily with Group Policy.
- jollyllama 1y ago> implying the outsourced IT dept. or anyone with authority over them gives a fuck anymore
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoEnterprise licenses have some of this disabled by default. At minimum, a competent IT group can configure these by group policy.
- some-guy 1y agoWhile using Windows 11 for my gaming PC (my only windows device) I used a debloat script [1] to keep it free of all the garbage it came with. I eventually moved to EndeavorOS and never looked back. [1] https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat
- RajT88 1y agoThey keep putting new stuff in as well! Most recently, ads on your lock screen which aren't obvious how to disable.
- jmclnx 1y agoI cannot help but believe TPM2 and this change is being pushed by the MPAA or more likely some governments. Yes I know I am in tinfoil hat territory, but I see no real reason for the need of TPM 2.0.
- 0xCMP 1y agoLook at the latest changes in iPhone hardware for security. Some are saying the iphone is unhackable now. There are no reasons such improvements couldn't work for Windows and I am guessing this is their best idea for raising the floor of hardware protection they can assume is available. I agree the push, which is quite disruptive, must be influenced by someone higher up. But I think its as simple as "Windows is insecure" is something they want to make untrue.
- kijin 1y agoSo, in order to make Windows more secure, they are leaving behind 40% of their userbase on an unsupported (i.e. vulnerable) version?
- 0xCMP 1y agoYes, I don't see how else they'd make any difference or get close to their goal without waiting 10 years for the computers to be slowly replaced.
- kijin 1y agoYes, when these PCs inevitably get exploited, the media and the general public aren't going to distinguish the versions. It will only reinforce the stereotype that PCs are insecure, get a Mac instead.
- logicchains 1y agoNext step: you can't run unapproved software on Windows, and you need to provide government ID and a license to buy hardware that can run Linux.
- skeeter2020 1y agoMy daily driver is a desktop computer that still runs triple-A video games but can't be upgraded because the motherboard doesn't have a TPM. Combined with the unbelievable hostility MS seems to have for customers and the fact that any .NET development you need to do these days no longer requires windows this will push me out of their ecosystem. It's wild to think that in less than 20 years I've gone from MS everything to MS nothing.
- pants2 1y agoI'm in the same boat. Windows 11 was so unbelievably bad that I switched to Mac overnight, after 25 years on MS. Mac isn't perfect but the hardware is top notch and they're not trying to embed ads into the OS. The only things I miss from Windows now are videogames, ShareX, and Everything. But Raycast and iStat Menus, while different, are awesome in their own way.
- r2_pilot 1y agoHave you heard about Crossover for running Windows games or Mac? I just discovered it since I did the same thing you're doing.
- pants2 1y agoHmm, unfortunately it looks like my preferred game (StarCraft II) doesn't run on Crossover according to their site. Too bad. The "Mac-native" version of SC2 is awful, I have to run it on the lowest graphics settings on my $3,000 MBP.
- luluthefirst 1y agoWhat's especially troubling is that my rig and many others can run games like Cyberpunk 2077 in full path tracing at 4K, but apparently not Windows 11
- AnotherGoodName 1y agoLikewise. 3950 cpu, 32gb ram, 2080 GPU. This runs everything 1440p just fine. The system was built 6 years ago but things just haven't moved fast in hardware. It doesn't have a TPM 2.0 module though so no Windows 11. One nice thing about that fact is that i never get the upgrade nags since it fails compatibility checks. Part of me is hoping we get some third party OS patches if anything major crops up. This has happened for previous versions of Windows. I plan to continue running this as-is past October 14. If something serious enough does crop up with no third party mitigations or fixes I'll move to Linux. I could technically install a TPM 2.0 module on the motherboard but i don't want to. Not enough benefit to me as someone that's never installed malware (I'm extremely cautious about what i allow to run on it to the extent of not running various binary distributed game mods).
- protoster 1y agoNot a fair comparison. Hardware security device has nothing to do with general compute power. It's like saying "What do you mean 'my Ferrari is not a good firetruck'??? It can go 0 to 100 in 4 seconds!"
- 1970-01-01 1y agoDoes anyone actually like Win11 over Win10? Win11 does nothing special. Who (other than MS) is happy with this plank-walking mandate?
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- ketzu 1y agoYes I am. I prefer the window placer thingy in win11. As I use an ultra wide monitor, having the menu centered works better for me, too. Win11 seems more performant and snappier to me, but that might be an illusion. Other things I amnot sure exist in win 10, as it has been a long time since I ran it on my personal hardware: Passkey support with windows hello. In the end, the chances seem so minimal, I am surprised how much disdain people have for win11, when it feels nearly the same as win10 to me.
- legitster 1y agoI run each on different PCs. Windows 11 fixed a lot of issues I was having, particularly in things like driver support and bluetooth connectivity. It also has a lot of little UI touches that are improvements (like volume control or game management) - particularly on a laptop. Also, the settings and configuration menus have gotten usability updates for the first time since Vista. I haven't noticed any bugs or problems (or even the intrusive advertisements that I have heard so much about). But then again, I didn't try Windows 11 until two years after it was released, so it could be that I just missed out on a bad launch. At the end of the day, it's like 95% the same as Windows 10 (although on my other PC I am still running an unactivated free version!)
- samuellavoie90 1y agoMicrosoft isn't ending Windows 10 support, it's all just marketing to encourage people to move over. They already partially backed out by saying they will provide updates for (At least) 1 more year if certain conditions are met, but they will probably end up giving everyone the critical security updates anyway. The quantity of windows 10 machines still being used is just too large to allow some vulnerability to permanently smear microsoft because 40% of all windows PCs got hacked or something.
- boston_clone 1y agoWell, their current marketing completely contradicts that - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-of-support https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-of-support
- blindriver 1y agoI currently have Windows 10 and refuse to upgrade to Windows 11. There is no way I'm going to allow the malware that is Windows 11 into my house. I thought they had turned a new leaf over the last few years but I guess not. Ramming things down my throat is not how I'm going to live my life so Microsoft can fuck right off. I'm already half off Windows because I switch between Windows and MacOS throughout the day so if need be I will just throw away my Windows machine and consolidate on Apple.
- zokier 1y agoWhile the Win10 eol annoys me on a personal level, I don't know what good extending the support would do; it would just kick the bucket forward with no real solution. If MS added another year of free support then we would be just in the exact same situation next year. Windows 10 is going away some day, so might as well stick with the original eol date.
- r2_pilot 1y agoRather than support Microsoft's bad decisions, I bought my first Mac instead of a Windows PC.
- greggsy 1y agoI prefer Mac too, but don’t forget that Apple typically only supports devices for seven years befote being declared ‘vintage’, after which time they will be ineligible for updates. Windows 10 on the other hand was released over ten years ago now. Not the best comparison, but it’s increasing more difficult to separate their OS support lifecycles from their M* hardware.
- r2_pilot 1y agoI did not know that, but I'm basically using this as a bridge to either fully use Linux more than I already do, or switch to windows 12 when it becomes a thing, if it's not worse, so I don't care about very long term support at this time. Plus I get access to a different ecosystem to help keep things fresh in the meantime.
- greggsy 1y agoI expect that they will cave in to some degree and expand the free ESU program to private consumers outside the EU. Don’t forget also that Office 2019 is also going EOL (among other things) on 14 October. Despite Microsoft’s efforts, people still use and even prefer their non-cloud products at home and enterprise. The most exposed component of Windows is going to be the Edge browser, but throw in an unpatched Outlook and Word, and there’s a potential blood bath brewing after the first few vulnerabilities are disclosed.
- ketzu 1y ago> people still use and even prefer their non-cloud products at home and enterprise. You can still buy office as single-purchase standalone versions. I think the most recent version is 2024. I worked on a project migrating away from office 2003... in 2022. In my opinion, people use outdated versions of Office because they want to, as it fulfils their needs, not because they can't buy standalone versions.
- eszed 1y agoFor my users it's because they hate UI changes. That's it. That's the need.
- nwellinghoff 1y agoSince this is “hacker” news. Just to let everyone know it is trivial to remove the tpm checks from the installer. You can do it manually or just download rufus and it has an option to remove them for you when you write an iso to a usb drive for install. Its a totally artificial requirement to drive sales. Windows 11 runs just fine on the older hardware. Like others have said windows ltsc is another great option. That being said…I agree its VERY annoying.
- Orygin 1y agoSure, if it was for my own computer I'd do it. What about my mother who is not technical enough to fix Windows when it will inevitably break in a future update? Should I setup win11 for her only for me to come back urgently in a few months when the install breaks?
- greggsy 1y agoUnfortunately, the ‘best’ option for her is to get ESU until she can replace the device. It’s free for private EU users, and I hope it will be expanded globally. The awful thing about all this is that they’re essentially turning a (perceived) perpetual license into a subscription license. I’d expect to see a lot of scammers attempting to fleece unsuspecting users around upgrades and support.
- farski 1y agoThis was my plan for my dad's PC, but, while he uses an iPad he uses for the vast majority of his browsing/email/etc, he uses his PC to do his taxes and the taxes of quite a few other people. TurboTax is dropping support for Windows 10 for next year's edition. Based on everything I've seen, it simply won't run (or that's how they are communicating it). So now I need to replace my dad's 3 or 4 year old computer only because of TPM. TT is saying they're doing this because Windows 10 support is ending, which obviously it isn't. Bad decision making on both ends, but the outcome is the same: I have to basically get rid of a very nice computer. I'm holding out as long as possible, hoping that reason re-enters the game, but I'm not holding my breath.
- josefritzishere 1y agoMicrosoft is trying to jam more AI garbage into more computers that nobody wants. It's just a greedy, invasive cash grab.
- legitster 1y ago> Many of the computers still running Windows 10 can’t upgrade to Windows 11. In 2022, hardware researchers found that 43% of all computers running Windows 10 could not move to Windows 11 — which equaled around 400 million computers at that time. My understanding is that Microsoft has more or less phased out the requirement in question (that a CPU has TPM 2.0).
- daft_pink 1y agoThe problem is really that the marketplace isn’t adopting Windows 11 to be honest.
- fithisux 1y agoThis is clearly a problem caused by the suspicious absence of governments. Semms they are wetting their appetite over locked surveilanceware. This is the new business model of M$$$
- MaximilianEmel 1y agoWould it be viable for there to be a community security patches project?