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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

• jjcm 1y ago
  If you're looking for a split keyboard that still has a more standard row-staggered layout, I'd highly rec the Dygma Raise. Far less of a learning curve and the build quality is quite good.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• thorncorona 1y ago
  I owned a Moonlander before and found that the keyboard layout didn’t matter much to my productivity. I have a Microsoft sculpt at work, and a macbook. The macbook keyboard has been great IME.
• dotancohen 1y ago
  All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.
  • UltraSane 1y ago
    You can get a QMK keyboard and create a function key layer.
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      That sounds a lot more like a keyboard hobby, than a keyboard.
      • squigz 1y ago
        It's very basic customization of a tool you use all day for your job. This is a strange attitude to me coming from a programmer.
        • qwerpy 1y ago
          Some of us don't program that much anymore but because we're older, the ergonomic aspects of something like Moonlander are important. Ortholinear and split keyboard for me. But I still want to be able to hop into a terminal or IDE once in a while, without having to spend a bunch of time customizing keyboard shortcuts/layouts. So it's painful to be missing all those keys.
        • dotancohen 1y ago
          I used to customise my car, my keyboard, even my fountain pens. Now, I just want to use them. I bought a car that's quick enough to pass lumbering trucks on tight roads (Tesla Model 3), I bought a pen that fits my hand and writes comfortably (Jinhao A10 EF), and I'd love a keyboard like the Matias Ergo Pro that I don't need to replace every year.
          • Jcampuzano2 1y ago
            Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need to replace the keyboard every year. And you only really have to customize the keyboard for a short while until it covers your personal needs. It took me maybe 1 week total after getting used to the keyboard to set it up in a way that worked for me personally, and the keyboard has already lasted a year and still works like new, and looks like new, and many people have had the same ergo-keyboard for years on end. I like you did not like the idea of having to finnick with it all the time, but in reality those are just the enthusiasts. I set it up in a couple weeks and ever since then I've probably only messed with it a few times more just to try something out of curiosity.
            • dotancohen 1y ago
              > Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need to replace the keyboard every year. Because the Matias Ergo Pro really is the perfect keyboard, but for myself and many other users they break after a year. At $250 that becomes expensive real quick.
    • miladyincontrol 1y ago
      More than just one function layer at that. When customized sufficiently you can do far more, with less movement of the hands. Different actions on hold, tap dance as well as macros all really help minimize strain.
      • UltraSane 1y ago
        I was excited when I realized that combos and tap dance work together!
  • randlet 1y ago
    Kinesis Freestyle Pro? I've got the non mechanical version (mechanical wasn't available when I purchased) and it's held up for many years. It's a great keyboard IMO.
    • rince 1y ago
      I really like my Kinesis Freestyle Edge with the tenting kit. I’ve been using it for around 2 years and no complaints.
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      Thank you, I'll take a look.
    • Mindless2112 1y ago
      The Freestyle Pro is almost a good keyboard. The Esc and function keys are all offset to the left by one key compared to a standard layout, which drove me nuts. I have a Freestyle Edge RGB now, which I like much better. (Though I replaced the wrist rests with some from Goldtouch.)
  • kyeb 1y ago
    I find one modifier plus a home-row key to be much more comfortable than reaching several rows up for an F-key. The author's whole point here is that QMK (or ZMK, which I use) lets you customize it to exactly your own needs!
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      But then many keyboard shortcuts require four keys to be depressed all at once. Just for an example off the top of my head, in JetBrains IDEs the shortcut for hiding all tools is Ctrl-Shift-F12.
      • snailmailman 1y ago
        As much as i like the idea of these split keyboards that are more ergonomic, I can’t get over the idea of missing keys and having to use chords or new combinations of hotkeys. I use nearly every key of my 104 key keyboard. Literally pause/break and scroll lock are the only ones I don’t use; and I’ve remapped those to be volume controls. If anything, i’d like even more keys for macros and dedicated shortcuts. But so many keyboards cut that number down so drastically. I use home, end, delete, page up/down, all the time not to mention the number pad as a whole, and all the Fkeys.
        • tpmoney 1y ago
          One of the nice things about QMK is the ability to get secondary functions on double / triple tap and press and hold combinations. I also couldn't get comfortable with big chording combos, so for example a lot of the keys in my thumb cluster do double duty. 1) My space key is right CTRL when held down. 2) I have two keys for "<RET>", one on each thumb cluster, one is Alt when held down, the other is left CTRL. 3) Page up and down have their own keys on one of those clusters because I no longer needed them for the modifiers, and so page up and down are also home and end if they're held down. 4) Auto shift is on, and I've tuned to to eliminate most of the accidental shifts while keeping it relatively quick to type CONSTANT_VALUES (I actually still have shift keys in the usual positions but on the ergodox I have it feels like a big stretch to hit them and type so I use the auto-shift most of the time, but I do admit this is the convenience function I have the most love/hate relationship with) 5) The shift keys themselves give me open parentheses (left shift) and close parentheses (right shift) when double tapped. The only chording I have to do these days (that isn't normal keyboard shortcuts) is I have a dedicated key to switch to a layer for FN keys when held down. And the reality is I could (and should) probably map the number keys to be FN keys when double tapped since I don't think I ever hold an FN key down. This[1] isn't my most current layout (missing the home/end on the pageup/down buttons) but it's pretty much what I've landed on after about a year of using one of these. And realistically there are unused keys there I could remap still. The CTRL where the capslock key would be is never used in favor of the thumb cluster versions, the left and right CTRL keys on the tops of the two thumb clusters are leftovers from older layouts and unused right now. I've never used the "Meh" key or the "'" and "Capslock" keys in the lower left. The "Command-enter" and "[" and "]" keys in the lower right are another leftover from an older layout that are also unused now. So lots of room to play around still. Not saying you should definitely switch, there are still some things that I'm not 100% happy with (those inner symbol keys are a stretch sometimes and depending on what code I'm writing feel like I could move them around) and getting used to the ortholinear layout is a whole thing on its own. But if it's something that interests you, maybe that layout can help you find a good starting point. [1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
  • bb88 1y ago
    Depending upon the cost and how much they mean to you there are a couple of options. One is to replace the switches. If they're hot swappable then it's easy. If they're not, it's hard -- but easy if you're willing to spend money on a desoldering iron. Depending upon your feelings here, I would consider it maintenance to keep it going if you love it -- particularly if you use it to prevent RSI. A quick look shows matias does sell replacement switches -- which is usually the thing to go. Springs, crud, etc end up in the switches. Sometimes you can tear them apart to fix them, sometimes it's easier to toss them and replace them. The typical desoldering tool for keyboards is something like this: https://www.amazon.com/ENGINEER-Engineer-Solder-Suction-SS-03/dp/B0D7Q293KV/ https://www.amazon.com/ENGINEER-Engineer-Solder-Suction-SS-0... They also have things like this that are maybe more functional than trying to do it two handed: https://www.amazon.com/zycllycx-Electric-Automatic-Desoldering-One-Handed/dp/B0F1XZKSLZ/ https://www.amazon.com/zycllycx-Electric-Automatic-Desolderi... But the hakko is the gold standard here. If you have keyboards you absolutely love but are soldered, this is the way to go. https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FR-301-Portable-Desoldering-Tool/dp/B07BFVFMS9/ https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FR-301-Portable-Desoldering-Too...
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      I meant that I am looking for a keyboard, not for a keyboard hobby. Hahaha who am I kidding? Of course I have a keyboard hobby! I have a practical museum of various split and mechanical keyboards. But I don't want to be soldering them any more.
      • bb88 1y ago
        I think the trick these days is find a layout you like with hot swappable cherry mx switches that have a qmx/via style configurator. Then you can configure the buttons however you want. Or you know... go build your own. It's fun. I built my own keypad and learned a bunch of stuff.
        • dotancohen 1y ago
          I get that you're trying to be helpful, but I meant that I am looking for a keyboard. Not for a keyboard hobby.
  • FridgeSeal 1y ago
    I have a Moonlander and I genuinely don’t understand why so many split keyboards do this. “Here’s a really nice split keyboard. But we’ve removed everything except the alphanumerics” Whhhyyyy. “Oh but it’s programmable. And you can have layers. And you can have macros” Cool. I actually didn’t want any of that. I just wanted a single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make space for a “meh” key, a “caps word” key, 3 keys in 2 variations for “change layer” but a play/pause/ volume keys are simply out of the question.
    • qwerpy 1y ago
      I completely agree. Moonlander would be perfect with a F key row and dedicated modifier keys. The purists will sneer, but they could always take off the keycaps and switches if they want to show off how minimal they are. I don't spend all my time in vim, my job is mostly emails and docs now. Muscle memory decays for all the fancy chords/layers/macros/etc and I don't have infinite time to spend tweaking keyboard layouts.
      • grepex 1y ago
        I added a numeric layer where my left thumb activates the layer key and the numbers are arranged like a numpad on my right half. The dedicated number keys at the top row are now f keys. Highly recommend
        • qwerpy 1y ago
          Interesting idea. Thanks
        • dotancohen 1y ago
          That's an interesting idea. But it makes other key combinations quadruple buckies. For instance, in JetBrains IDEs Ctrl-Shift-4 sets bookmark number 4.
      • Jcampuzano2 1y ago
        You don't need infinite time, you just need to do it until you get all your personal needs covered. Personally I have an advantage 360 pro. The only function keys I actually use with frequency are F12 and F2, used for shortcuts in editors. I just put F12 and F2 on thumb keys. Problem solved. Some people go all in on layers, but I actually use minimal layers at all. I can do everything I need with just the base layer from how I have it setup. I only have a second layer setup that allows using VIM-like navigation (i.e. up, down, left, right, page-down, page-up etc) from the home row in my browser. But technically I also have those on the base layer just in the normal positions. I actually had a similar mindset, I do not want to have to create tons of layers and combinations, so I optimized my layout around just the base layout but added a layer just for convenience later on.
  • zie 1y ago
    You might try the UHK 80: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/uhk80 https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/uhk80 I have the UHK 60 and I really like it, except as you mentioned no function keys. The software is pretty good, includes a little DSL and you can do pretty much anything you want.
    • sorahn 1y ago
      I couldn't quite go for the 60%, but I have friends with the UHK60 and I really liked it as a keyboard. I popped for the 80 as soon as the shipping times caught up to real time. It's a fantastic keyboard. I haven't gotten any of the clusters for it yet, but I'm very happy with my purchase.
      • zie 1y ago
        Ya, mine is an original UHK60 v1 from years and years ago. It still holds up great. I hope they make a UHK 110 key. I want all the keys. Right now it's not worth the upgrade to me from the 60 to the 80. but I'd totally upgrade for a 101/110/120 or whatever keys. Modes and multiple keys to do one thing is fine, but it's not as nice as just having a dedicated key. Which is why I want all the keys.
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      Looks great, thank you!
  • dimator 1y ago
    Not sure if it's been mentioned, but keychron make split keyboards: https://www.keychron.com/collections/split-keyboards https://www.keychron.com/collections/split-keyboards I'm not sure if they're in stock, but it's a lovely keyboard with dead simple programmability.
    • el_benhameen 1y ago
      I got one on Amazon for a little over retail and it’s a solid keyboard. I had a knockoff 65 before and you can definitely tell the difference in quality. I believe Microcenter has them in stock if you’re in the Bay.
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      Looks like a good choice, thank you!
  • bsmith 1y ago
    I love my Dygma Defy: https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      Thanks, but the Defy lacks Function keys.
      • marginalia_nu 1y ago
        These kinds of keyboards are programmable, function keys can be added to a custom layer, just as any other keys. The entire point is to make it so you don't constantly have to be reaching for keys, to bring them closer to your fingers (which can stay relatively still).
  • distances 1y ago
    You got a lot of exotic suggestions, I'll give one closer to normal: Perixx Periboard 535. Split (though non-adjustable), low profile mechanical switches with three options, three tilting levels, wired or wireless, with or without numpad. And has function keys. Also quite cheap. I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad, and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement for MS Sculpt and didn't want one of the wild models, this finally ticked all the boxes. https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535 https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535 DE: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BZZJH9W2 https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BZZJH9W2 US: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLT4HDPR https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLT4HDPR
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      That does look pretty good. Thank you!
    • tom_ 1y ago
      Seconded. They're pretty good and I've found them a decent replacement for the MS Ergonomic 4000 keyboards that I used to use. Full size keyboard with keys in the normal places, reverse tilt, manageable F lock, and a cable to connect it to your computer. I've got one with clicky blue switches, which is fun to type on but a bit loud, and one with silent red switches, which is pleasant to use but the key activation is perhaps a bit too light. I sometimes find myself pressing the keys when I thought I was just hovering my fingers. The folding stands are a weak point. The MS 4000/Sculpt sort of design, whereby the riser is a solid piece of plastic that the keyboard rests on, is much better.
      • distances 1y ago
        I like the stands. I need two different levels of tilt, full negative for the sitting position and the mid level for standing. It's really easy to switch between the levels so it fits well my use case.
  • pimlottc 1y ago
    I agree, they’re darn near perfect, but they always end up with repeated characters or “key chatter”. It’s such a shame, I’ve basically resigned myself to buying a new one ever year or two, but I hate the waste.
  • westonmyers 1y ago
    I've been running an Ergo Pro since 2015. Ordered like 40 extra key switches and have had to resolder in about a dozen as replacements so far. Annoying, but I'm keeping it going! Gel wrist pads?... Not a great implementation. I either need to work up a 3d printed DIY replacement via covering TPU (or something of the like) or order a first party replacement.
    • dotancohen 1y ago
      That might be the route I should go. I also have a "flat" gelpad on one of my Ergo Pros. Came that way from the factory, but it never really bothered me enough to complain to them. I love the gelpad palm rests (not wrist).
• kayson 1y ago
  I love my moonlander so much, I bought a second one for work. Both were secondhand, so the sticker shock wasn't quite so bad. Though, I did end up spending some of that savings on custom, coiled cables. A coworker, after seeing my setup, also ended buying two. I agree with the author. It's a tool, and if your job requires a lot of computer use, it is worth it to invest in a tool that can not only help prevent RSI, but also make you much more productive. I switched to a Colemak-dh layout at the same time, and it was a huge adjustment. I'm not sure it was really worth it yet. It is hard to catch up to 30+ years of QWERTY muscle memory, though. Key layout aside, the ortholinear arrangement has absolutely been worth it. It feels much more comfortable, especially with the tenting set up. ZSA's layout editor and customer support also deserve a shoutout. Can't recommend it enough.
  • __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
    ZSA's support is great too. I've reached out twice for something I thought was a bug and both times the response was a swift, polite, confident: > we thought of your case and built you a toggle for it, try setting [thing] and let us know if that helps It helped
  • tpmoney 1y ago
    I don’t have a moonlander but I did get one of their ergodox keyboards after noticing an increase in pain myself. I tried using it in querty and my experience was unless you type with proper hand position and finger movements (and possibly not even then) querty on an orthinear was even more painful than on a regular keyboard. I tried colemak for a while but something about the layout didn’t feel comfortable still. I landed on using “middlemak” [1] which at least for me has been much more comfortable. It preserves a decent bit of qwerty placement to help with muscle memory, but I’ve also found that only using it on the ergodox keyboard and keeping qwerty on all of my “normal” keyboards has also helped the muscle memory a lot. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Middlemak/wiki/index/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Middlemak/wiki/index/
    • squigz 1y ago
      QWERTY with "proper" hand placement isn't too bad, but I've been typing like this since I was 4 years old and have never tried another layout, so I might just be missing out. Still, it took me more than a year to really get used to the Ergodox... I shudder to think how long a new layout would take to get used to!
• landr0id 1y ago
  I like my Moonlander, but if you want to see a real scam of a keyboard try buying (please don't) one of "WORK LOUDER"'s keyboards like the Nomad E. $350-500, gimmicks you'll never use, non-open-source firmware, cheap build quality, no refunds.
• miladyincontrol 1y ago
  I too have a moonlander but imo the biggest gain from most mechs isnt how they can tent but being ortholinear in nature reducing some of the more awkward directional movements of a staggered keyboard. Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys, a 40% is more than enough, less can be more in many ways. My datahand is probably my favorite keyboard though for reducing movement while avoiding too much repetition. If it ever bites the dust beyond repair I'd absolutely move to a diy svalboard build or whatever similar alternative is it's contemporary.
  • hosteur 1y ago
    > Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys Can't you just program it such that you do not use the keys you find unnecessary? Perhaps even remove the switches?
    • Jcampuzano2 1y ago
      Don't have a moonlander but I actually did this with my advantage 360 pro. I did not remove the switches but I made them no-ops. The whole left-most and right-most columns of the keyboard are completely unused for me. If you travel with the keyboard a lot maybe its an issue since its extra weight/space, but if not I don't see it really hurting much.
• Jcampuzano2 1y ago
  I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something that allowed me to type for more than 5 minutes at a time without pain. The things I think are key for people with persistent issues: - programmable keys - tenting - concavity (rules out most keyboards) - thumb clusters - ortholinear I know some go without the concavity but I just cannot go back. Its so much more comfortable on my hands. Programmable keys are probably the most important though, primarily so you can pick which stretches and awkward movements to completely remove and no longer have to do. For example I've entirely removed the need to ever stretch my pinkies and ring fingers on both hands. It destroys my hands having to do so on a normal keyboard and so many normal shortcuts require excessive pinky finger movement. I honestly think anybody who plans on using a keyboard for the rest of their life should invest in a high quality keyboard even if it's expensive. I would not be able to continue working today without having done so. Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels.
  • dbalatero 1y ago
    You nailed it, I have the same criteria. I ended up with a Cyboard Imprint but the Advantage 360 seems excellent as well.
  • arcanemachiner 1y ago
    For those with more time than money, you can build an open-source Advantage 360 clone for around $100 USD: - https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1 https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1 I'm not the creator, but I do have a repo with a purchase list that shows what stuff to buy from AliExpress: - https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras It takes about 10 hours to put together. You'll also need some nerd tools: access to a 3D printer, soldering iron, etc.
    • 1y ago
• andrewjf 1y ago
  I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish I had a better experience. Any recommendations?
  • animal_spirits 1y ago
    How long did you spend trying to adjust? it takes some time. I consistently made typos for about 2 months and then it quickly became very natural to type. My only advice here is to slog through the typos for a couple months. Our brains are flexible enough to adapt.
  • kyeb 1y ago
    - Learn their default layout first, then iterate on your personal preferences. I similarly tried a bunch at first, but realized switching layouts constantly was making it impossible to build up the new muscle memory. - Spend time practicing away from important coding tasks (e.g. gaming, writing, a side project, a one-off script, etc.). Being able to learn in a forgiving environment, outside of deadlines, gives you the space to allow mistakes and time to correct them
  • QuantumNoodle 1y ago
    Muscle memory is exactly what it sounds like, you need more repetition. If you are becoming frustrated, you can try to reduce your cognitive load. ZSA has an app for all platforms called "Keymapp". It's primarily used for flashing firmware but shows the key assignments in real time. I use only 1 monitor but I've repurposed my laptop screen to always display keymapp so I can see which key/layer has the symbol I am looking for when I don't have the mental capacity to remember. The default layers are pretty good, but I found programming the keys/layers to what made sense to me to be more beneficial. I use the heat map to see which keys get the most milage and program layers around that. Then I only program a few new keys at a time and get a feel for things. My words-per-minute went down initially but now it is back. I have been tweaking my layout for about a month and am close to being happy with it. I've set myself a milestone that when I don't make any tweaks for 6 months I will buy custom keycaps that have my exact symbols/layers on each key.
• rajman187 1y ago
  My main keyboard has been a 34-key split Ferris. I usually have either a trackpad between the halves if I’m using a Mac or an ergonomic Logitech if on my Linux desktop. Not having to move my hands at all while being able to reach any keys/characters I need has been a welcomed change, worth remapping my brain. https://arjtala.github.io/2022/09/17/ferris-compact.html https://arjtala.github.io/2022/09/17/ferris-compact.html
  • Eji1700 1y ago
    Agreed. It quickly becomes "awkward" to go back to using a numpad once you get used to ALWAYS being one key hold/press away from it. I can type numbers as easily as I can type capitals, ditto with every symbol, and my function keys. Hell I've even worked on a couple of revision on "gaming" layers. Namely for FPS or older roguelikes. I hate how hard it is to find a split space(feels mandatory now that i'm used to it) 40% with wireless and QMK/Zia/etc. The EPOMAKER-TH40 SHOULD be perfect, but turns out they put out a breaking patch or something and it's not ACTUALLY programmable anymore. I need something like this for 2 setups at homes. I went around on a couple of things and landed on the split 4x5 Chiri CE for my everyday workhorse since it's easy to carry. https://keeb.io/products/chiri-ce-keyboard-kit?variant=41088422838366 https://keeb.io/products/chiri-ce-keyboard-kit?variant=41088... Of note, while that board seems to be out of stock and isn't for everyone i cannot recommend keeb.io enough. They've done a fantastic job of keeping my board running after I had some ESD ruin it once or twice, and have never charged me as it was still under warranty. With how hit or miss a lot of this niche keyboard stuff is, it's really really nice to find people who stand by their product and can turn things around. I get its got to be a miserable market so I don't demand it, and I'm extremely happy when I do see it.
• waynesonfire 1y ago
  Those thumbs are doing a lot of work. Can't imagine that being ergonomic.
  • Arrowmaster 1y ago
    Thumbs are one of your stronger fingers. In contrast the pinky is by far the weakest but we have dedicated it to almost every modifier and outlying key. I currently use an Elora from SplitKB so I can't speak to the Moonlanders thumb cluster, but if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing.
    • MichaelDickens 1y ago
      For me the biggest benefit of thumb keys isn't finger strength, it's the fact that the thumb is separated from the rest of the hand. It's really easy to hit a thumb key while hitting any other key on the "main" part of the keyboard. Whereas on a traditional keyboard, typing something like shift-T or ctrl-R requires stretching out your hand.
      • microtonal 1y ago
        It's really easy to hit a thumb key while hitting any other key on the "main" part of the keyboard. Mirrored home row mods are even much nicer (IMO).
    • microtonal 1y ago
      Thumbs can get overuse injuries: https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html I have used ergo keyboards with thumb clusters for several years now. After a while, even though switching to a split ergo keyboard alleviated wrist pains, I developed thumb discomfort. In the end I solved it by only frequently using the resting key of each thumb (space and backspace). And using the other thumb keys for infrequent things. I use homerow mods to have all modifiers in the alpha block. if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing Until they start to hurt. It can take a few years (just like wrist pains). Be careful!
• wahnfrieden 1y ago
  I love my Glove80 with Pro Red chocs. Kinesis Advantage for 15 years before that one. Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.
  • 1121redblackgo 1y ago
    Glove80++
  • microtonal 1y ago
    100% agree. I have almost never travelled with my Advantage2 or 360 when I still had them. But the Glove80 is so light that it’s easy to carry with me. The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only keyboard I’ve truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle. MoErgo is also expanding the Choc keyboard space with really nice silent switches (Cherry/Plum Blossom) and keycaps.
    • wahnfrieden 1y ago
      I dislike the tenting and often lose them so I just put something under the keyboard halves to tilt them. Later I want to get their mounting kit and just use these tiny pocket tripods I have (can't find the name but they have no rod), or find a good way to put magsafe rings on them to use with other sturdy mini tripods I have.
    • Jcampuzano2 1y ago
      I mentioned in my comment not liking how flimsy is felt. It is very light and that can be a plus but when I tried traveling with it with tenting setup, often the rods became loose, it formed an awkward shape so didn't fit in the carrying case they provided in the first place, would not sit well in my backpack, and often times I'm not sure why but keys would pop out. Resetting the tenting up everytime I travel/go somewhere with it is not really convenient at all, so its not really a decent option. I don't often travel with the 360, but when I do, I just lower it to the lowest level and its never had an issue except for the obvious bulkiness. Another issue is because its so light, it would often shift around on my desk while typing, and I've seen others complain about this as well. Maybe its just an issue of how hard you type, or how much friction your desk provides. If I could get a mix between a 360 with the shape of the glove 80's keywell and key setup, but with the sturdiness of the 360 I'd buy it no questions asked.
• precompute 1y ago
  I've been using a 42-key corne for 5 years and I can't imagine using a regular keyboard. The way I sit is now different: my arms are spread apart instead of crowding in front of me. This alone helps me pay more attention to the work I'm doing because I'm not hunching over. It took a few months for the layout to sink in, but the ability to customize the layout was insanely helpful and now the way I interface with a computer is exactly how I think it ought to be. The entire thing was $90 with a 3d printed case that's still holding strong. I tented it with some jenga blocks and it's flawless. I almost never look at the thing. The Moonlander is way too large IMO. A 42 key layout is about perfect and requires ~zero wrist movement. The corne has three thumb buttons on each side, but it's effectively five thumb buttons on each side because two can be pressed at the same time. So your layout can be [Mod1] [Layer] [Mod2] and you can easily use [Mod1]/[Mod2] with anything on [Layer]. And when you press [Mod1], a thumb key on the other hand becomes [Mod2]. So you basically get to use every possible combo. I have five mod keys this way: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Super and Hyper. And multiple layer keys.
• egypturnash 1y ago
  There are still key combos that I could tap out with lightning speed on my old keyboard that I still struggle to type as fast: C-M-- (negative argument) followed by another key, such as C-M-k, is one such example. I wish I had more keys, yet ironically I have empty keys I do not use at all on the keyboard. Stick those sequences on those empty keys as macros. Or assign one of those empty keys to control-meta.
• knlb 1y ago
  Another vote for the Glove 80: I used the Kinesis Advantage 2 for 10 years (after a few initial signs of finger pain developing), then tried the new 360; and recently got the glove 80 so I could easily travel with it and fell in love with the keyboard. It definitely doesn't feel as solid as the Kinesis or ergodox (which I used intermittently as well) but is the most comfortable keyboard I've used, the LEDs are actually useful (for showing battery life and bluetooth connections), and there are enough keys (including function keys); I don't like having to reason about layers at all, I want to be able to smoothly transition to my laptop's keyboard in a pinch).
• a1o 1y ago
  There’s too much filler in this writing. And can’t find a photo of the specific mentioned keyboard?
• Svoka 1y ago
  I love my moonlander. I bought it on release and it is best computer accessory I know of. I extensively customized the software. My favourite is controlling cursor with keyboard, I have one hand mode, etc. One note — when I purchased the Moonlander their "The Platform" wasn't available. I bought it couple month ago and it improved experience even more.
• lotophage 1y ago
  I struggled with the Moonlander although it is a wonderful keyboard. I mapped it to a Colemak layout varient when I first got it. I was constantly discovering key combos that didn't quite work for whatever reason and made tweaks to the layout or the shortcuts in various editors. Forever tying my brain in knots learning and relearning mappings and combos. Then I'd frequently jump on other peoples computers/laptops to help out with small things and have to switch back to the old mode of thinking. It ended up being a productivity sink rather than a boon. I don't know whether I would have crossed some inflection point if I had persevered, but there was always this fixed cost of tweaking shortcuts when using new software that was more burdensome than with a plain qwerty keyboard. Maybe I was too ambitious and should have avoided the Colemak-esque layout, but I haven't managed to summon the stamina to give it a fair go again. I still use one half of it for gaming though. It's really sweet for that.
  • martythemaniak 1y ago
    I'd say it's definitely the colemak change. They keyboard by itself takes some getting used to, a new layout on top would be overwhelming. I kept mine pretty close to a standard qwerty - the only customizations are where I put the "\|", backspace, dash and a few other keys, along with what to do with all the thumb keys. Even with these relatively minor changes, it still took me about a week to recover my WPM, and I had to use their touch typing software to practice for an hour or two. Making only a few changes also makes it seamless to switch to laptop keyboards, etc.
    • gundmc 1y ago
      This matches my experience exactly. I use a standard QWERTY setup on the moonlander, with only changes being the thumb clusters and changing caps lock to backspace. After a few days of practicing, it feels natural and seamless to switch back and forth.
  • tpmoney 1y ago
    I found I couldn't get colemak to work for me. Like you said, too many key combos that just felt awkward. I wound up using a layout[1] called "middlemak" that feels much more comfortable to me, and preserves a lot of qwerty hand if not actual key positions, which helped in the initial switch. Took me a few months to get up to a relatively normal typing speed and a year in (of maybe 2-4 days of use a week depending on whether I'm working from the road or not) and I still have to look at my keys about 50% of the time, but it's improving and since I only customized this one keyboard, it doesn't seem to have broken my muscle memory for a standard qwerty keyboard. [1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
• kgc 1y ago
  Have a Glove80 on the way.
• kixiQu 1y ago
  I love my Ergodox EZ except that I haven't flashed it for years and I'm not totally sure what all the keys did on all the layers. Still worth it, somehow!!
• roxolotl 1y ago
  Had been looking at these for some time. A few days of pain where I couldn’t type much and the threat tariffs turning on at the end of the month, this was early August, caused me to pull the trigger on a Voyager, ZSA’s low profile keyboard. Couldn’t be happier. I’ve used QMK, even writing some C for a board, and limited key keyboards before and their software really does make it a lot simpler to configure. It’s also really nice to have leds indexable per key so you can color code things when you’re learning. They cost a lot more now for those in the US[0] but I’d still recommend them. My pain hasn’t come back and honestly even at +20% that’s worth it. 0: https://www.reddit.com/r/zsaVoyager/comments/1n9en4b/us_tariff_psa_voyager_navigator/ https://www.reddit.com/r/zsaVoyager/comments/1n9en4b/us_tari...
• YVoyiatzis 1y ago
  Switched early to a left-handed 65% keyboard setup—Keychron K7 Max QM7 on the left, Trackpad Pro and MX Master 3S on the right. Feels quick, natural, and fixes what Apple’s keyboards never did.
• moron4hire 1y ago
  I've found just switching between differently shaped keyboards regularly was enough to cure my RSI. I don't have anything fancy: a Unicomp Model M at work and a Microsoft Natural at home.
• dataangel 1y ago
  If you have serious RSI I strongly suggest Svalboard. https://svalboard.com/ https://svalboard.com/
  • still 1y ago
    Having gone down the rabbit hole of concave keyboards from Kinesis advantage to iterations of self printed dactyl manifolds I ended up at Svalboard too. Combined with adjustable carrier arms it has enabled me to continue working even post recent shoulder surgery. Yes it’s an obscene amount of money but it works and enables me to continue earning a living in front of a screen.
• floren 1y ago
  Oddly, switching to a custom Lisp Machine-inspired keyboard has been better for hand/wrist pain than my Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage I used before. It's a staggered key, non-split, flat QWERTY keyboard. I think maybe they're just good keyswitches? Here's the keyboard: https://jfloren.net/b/2024/10/23/0 https://jfloren.net/b/2024/10/23/0
• daft_pink 1y ago
  The thing I don’t like about keyboards this is that I still have to use a mouse and these keyboards don’t really address that. If I mounted on the arms of my desk, it’s even harder to get to the mouse. Maybe a few people can get away with just them all day, but I can’t.
  • epiccoleman 1y ago
    It's a pretty big departure from traditional keyboards, but there are a bunch of dactyl variants which have a trackball in the thumb cluster. I'm not sure how practical this really is, having never used one, but it's conceptually nifty.
  • danpalmer 1y ago
    I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and I have the trackball module for it. Life changing. I don't use a mouse anymore and instead have a trackball right under my thumb.
    • daft_pink 1y ago
      Wow. UHK has Trackball, Trackpoint or Trackpad options and you can click with the left thumb while moving with the right. That’s incredible! Thanks! Maybe someday I can afford this, but I miss the IBM Thinkpad Trackpoint.
  • benhurmarcel 1y ago
    There’s this as well: https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/ https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/
• Twey 1y ago
  > proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is ‘less stretching’, and by geometry more keys = more stretching, which is why there's significant overlap between the ergonomic keyboard crowd and the few-keys crowd. When I first got an Ergodox I too thought I would struggle with few keys, but over time I found I prefer to have the keys in a comfortable position with a layer modifier than to have them off in Narnia where I have to shift my whole wrist to reach them. (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.)
  • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    There are plenty of folks in the community who land somewhere in the middle, too. 60%/65% are all pretty popular and don't go off the deep end in cutting down keys. I'm personally partial to the HHKB layout, which is like 60% with inspiration from boards associated with the original Mac and with old UNIX boxes.
    • scuff3d 1y ago
      I got a 75% Keychron a few years ago. Really like it, but I've been considering finding a more portable 65%. The Keychron is great but it's pretty heavy so it's annoying to carry around. Any suggestions?
      • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
        Can’t recommend anything personally since my boards are mostly group but one-offs (other than the HHKBs), but I think Keychron has low profile mechanical 65% boards if that’s of interest.
  • 1y ago
• danpalmer 1y ago
  > here are my thoughts on ... you should literally buy any mechanical keyboard ... with programmable firmware Funnily enough, the Moonlander was not this for me. It's programmable, but the round-trip time for programming meant that I didn't modify it often, and only modified it in significant ways, which meant I'd then forget key combinations immediately. This was particularly prevalent for anything where you have to tune responsiveness/movement/timing. I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me. So yes, get a keyboard with programmable keys, but not all are created equal, find one that lets you have a very tight feedback loop and you'll be so much happier.
  • mickeyp 1y ago
    > I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me. Actually I point out you can use webusb to flash it (if you use Chrome) further down ...
    • danpalmer 1y ago
      That must be a new feature? This didn't exist when I got my UHK, and was why I ended up selling my Moonlander. How long does the flash take? Having it in Chrome is a great step forward, but if it still takes 10-20s to flash that would still prevent the sort of feedback loop that I found so transformational.
      • mickeyp 1y ago
        Seconds. I mean, something on the order of that, anyway. Fast enough to iterate but I mean it's still the weakest link in the iteration chain of course.
  • squigz 1y ago
• marvin-hansen 1y ago
  I got a moonlander for programming. The defaulting tenting is indeed a lame joke, so I got the platform, which is made out of steel(!). It's heavy, but rock solid and stable. I mapped commonly used Fn-key combos on the number rows as long press i.e. cmd-Fn-4 is a long press on 4. The web UI makes this dead simple to setup and customize. That said, I read from the guy who build the Svalboard to put the keyboard on a tray below the desk. I actually did that and, man, that was a revelation. I have one of those motorized desks with adjustable height, and with the tray the Moonlander is now roughly on the same level as the arm rest from the chair. It reduced the tension in my shoulders noticeably. It's a vastly improved typing experience.
• tcmart14 1y ago
  Just got the ZSA Voyager a couple months ago and love it. It goes with me to and from work. For me, the biggest draw is just the more natural sitting position, I've found that I love having my trackball mouse in the center between the two halves along with a cup of coffee.
• patel011393 1y ago
  I solved my RSI with rest, a vertical mouse, and ZSA Moonlanders. I eventually bought one for home use and one for work use with great performance for the past four years. I can’t imagine going back, especially after replacing the key switches to quieter variants. The split keyboard opens up the middle of my desk to fit an adjustable stand (Parblo and ElevationLab work well). So I can write and draw by hand if I want.
• wulfstan 1y ago
  OPs experience working their way up the keyboard stack is very similar to my own. I settled on the Dygma Raise. I now own one of the Raise and Raise 2. Yes, they are a lot of money. I don’t have time to game any more, and they clearly focus mainly on gamers. But if you’re a software / IT person your wrists are your livelihood, so for goodness sakes invest in them. There is no silver bullet and you will probably have to try a number of possible solutions if you suffer from wrist and forearm pain when working, but do not ignore it and take your workplace ergonomics seriously. For younger engineers, learn to minimise your “travel” and learning editor shortcuts, terminal shortcuts and similar so that you can be smoothly productive with constantly shifting from mouse to keyboard and back again. And take regular breaks! Get up and walk around. If you are WFH get out for walk at lunch. In general, care for your body so that you may write code into your 80s.
  • lrem 1y ago
    If only this had the F key row. Why is "fewer keys" the first decision that every fancy keyboard designer starts with :/
    • 2716057 1y ago
      Because the fancy keyboards all support layers, and one key ergonomic principle is to avoid unnecessary finger travel ;) Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2: https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2 https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2
      • layer8 1y ago
        Modifier keys are the main thing that’s causing me RSI in the first place.
        • 2716057 1y ago
          Place modifiers on the thumb keys or - if you don't have any of those - use home row mods! My ranking of measures from most effective to least effective: 1) Do everything you can to minimize workload of weak fingers (pinky & ring fingers). Just flipping control and caps lock is often not enough. 2) Split keyboard; halves roughly shoulder-width apart. Optimize for straight wrists both at rest and "in action". This usually results in zero tilting or slightly negative tilting. 3) Concave designs. 4) Tenting.
• fleekonpoint 1y ago
  Not sure if the author is reading these comments but if you like the Moonlander but don’t like how the thumb cluster is tied to the tenting angle, I strongly recommend their ZSA tenting solution. It makes the whole thing a lot sturdier but more importantly it lets you adjust the tenting angle independently from the thumb cluster angle. You can also probably find used ones online. I know you mention it already in the article but it is really worth trying out. You even get more tenting angles that would previously be impossible without it. And it just makes the whole thing a lot sturdier.
  • mickeyp 1y ago
    Good to know, thanks! Now that I 3d print (apropos hobbies with infinite depth...) I would probably just CAD design and print my own instead, but I've come to accept the limitations, such as it is, of the moonlander's tenting design.
  • marcusb 1y ago
    For anyone curious about this, the tenting solution is available here[0]. I wrote about it in my review of the Moonlander[1]. In short, in addition to much more stable angle adjustment, you get an additional 46 degrees of adjustment (11 degrees with the tent legs vs 57 degrees with the platform kit.) It does tend to slide around a bit on a smooth desk, but I solved that with some rubber matting glued to the bottom. 0 - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform 1 - https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-moonlander-mark-i-keyboard/#platformsystem https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-moo...
• zamalek 1y ago
  This may or may not change your perspective on keyboards. Assuming Covid never happened: - How many hours a day do you spend driving? - How much do you/did you spend on your car? - Did you purchase the cheapest car that just filled the need you had (aesthetics, comfort, etc. are therefore off the table, "gets N people to N places")? If not, why not? - How many hours a day do you spend typing? - How much did you spend on your keyboard? If you haven't tried a good mechanical keyboard see if you know someone who has one and spend some time using it.
• rswail 1y ago
  So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire. How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/option/fn) and the appropriate MacOS function key tops? All of the ISO that I could find have one or another of the EU layouts, which I don't need or want.
  • nine_k 1y ago
    That might be hard to find, but pretty easy to configure. Take any ISO keyboard you like, buy custom keycaps for the keys you want to look different.
  • bostik 1y ago
    Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a physical switch to flip between the two variants. Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout. (Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require a wrist support, they are thick.)
    • rswail 1y ago
      The keychron K10 max seems closest to what I want and has the keytops I want (with a bit of rearranging). The UK keytops are the closest to what I want, I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's probably the closest. Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's no one around to be bothered by the clicking. Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an original IBM PC, I want the clicks :)
      • Xss3 1y ago
        Pretty sure the switches are hot swappable. There are also many more types than just regular cherry mx blue nowadays if you want clicky. My advice would be to buy some clicky switch samples from somewhere like this; https://mechbox.co.uk/collections/switches-singles https://mechbox.co.uk/collections/switches-singles
• oerdier 1y ago
  After getting shoulder bursitis two years ago--although the direct cause was sports, not desk habits--I dove into the world of split ergo keyboards. I did get one (a Kyria v3) and learned to type on it at an acceptable speed--although still significantly slower than my speed on a regular keyboard. Wanting to optimize my layout, I did research into my typing behavior and logged my keystrokes (and storing these logs as securely as I would a password). Analysis did give me notable insights (e.g. by far my most used keys are arrow keys, for selecting text), but my main conclusion was that even during a regular full day of programming preferring my keyboard over my mouse (tiling window manager, hotkeys, browser extension to virtually click on elements using keys), I don't actually type that much, and if I do, it is in bursts, never more than 20 seconds or so. Although I find typing on a split fun and comfortable, I went back to a regular keyboard because the hit in productivity is not worth it for me. The experiment did teach me how to improve my ergonomics. I optimized my desk height and bought a very flat and less wide keyboard, with the completely unused numpad section chopped off ("TKL") so if I do grab my mouse there is less travel.
• ivanb 1y ago
  The whole area is full of contradictions: - mechanical keys - reduced movement; - buy a custom build - have industrial build quality; - barely any movement - good blood flow; - avoid rolling - type fast; - concave keyboards - tenting; - fewer keys - minimal; - uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback; - keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely; - custom layout - conventional shortcuts. This is ridiculous. I no longer take this field seriously. I get it, we get bored and need a new toy sometimes. Some indeed acquired a medical condition and need medical equipment to type now. I noticed when I exercise I can sit comfortably on a firm basic stool, and when I don't I become a princess on a pea. How about we start with the basics? Good posture, correct hand positions, monitor at the right level, exercise, nutrition. Then an IBM Model M would suffice.
  • seec 1y ago
    This actually exists in every field to some extent. Humans get bored and at some point, we need to make complicated answers/explications/justifications to stuff that are actually very simple. Saying, just practice, pay attention and measure/test progress doesn't cut it for many; especially since some don't want to come to the realization that they'll probably never get better because of their own limitations. This is why there are always people selling "solutions" that are mostly snake oil, the promise is always that it'll get better, faster, stronger, whatever. One area that is ripe with those sorts of things is weight loss. It is an extremely simple problem, just eat less calories than you consume and you'll be good. But since humans are faillible and sometimes have hard time making progress, you get all kinds of protocols/tools and whatnot that only achieve the same goal but in a roundabout way. If people believe in them, sometimes it helps (most of the time not). This is the exact same with keyboards, the problem is not at all with the keyboard, it's all lack of physical activity and bad posture. But saying: just take breaks, do calisthenics (or swimming or any full body workout sport really) and it will get better doesn't satisfy many. Those who want a "quick fix" they can buy are disappointed and those who want to sell a "solution" can't push their snake oil that would make them money (they often are believers themselves, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't really make a difference).
  • Jcampuzano2 1y ago
    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but even if you use all of the correct postures, correct movement, and everything is done correctly, you can still end up with issues if you just do the same thing over and over. It's relatively agreed upon nowadays that there actually is no "correct posture". The issue is primarily exacerbated by being in the same posture all of the time, doing the same movements all the time, and especially so in positions that aren't so natural for our body - and typing is not a natural movement/position for the wrists. I developed issues despite always standing or sitting on a supposed ergonomic char, moving my hands a lot while typing, working out and exercising consistently, etc. Until I started having issues I probably would have also been in the same camp that "oh this is ridiculous". Now I take anyone with chronic pain much more seriously.
• sph 1y ago
  I bought a ZSA Moonlander a few years ago and it went a bit like this: 1. Unpack and immediately set up a Colemak-DH layout. Customize the layout twice a day for 4 months. This is PAINFUL, slow and unproductive. 2. Got comfortable with Colemak and stopped doing any typing exercises. Still tweaking my layout. 3. Didn’t know where to position my mouse, so I got an Apple Trackpad 2 that sits beautifully between the two halves. Works great on Linux. Keep the mouse around for gaming. 4. Finally productive. I make minor changes to my layout every 6 months. Colemak is ingrained in my muscle memory. It’s just so comfortable. And don’t worry about forgetting how to type QWERTY; the secret to retain muscle memory is that an ortholinear split keyboard is sufficiently different from a regular one that it’s like learning a completely new instrument. Hard at first, but it would be hard even if the layout was familiar; might as well then switch to something better than QWERTY. I love my split keyboard now. Games are a bit annoying but I can easily switch to my gaming-QWERTY-hybrid layout (QWERTY on the left hand, colemak w/ tweaks on the right). Specialist tools like Blender might need minor rebinding to find comfort. When I type on a regular laptop, I find shift+numbers for symbols to be hilariously unergonomic compared to my symbol layer, I don’t know how the hell people cope doing Rust or Haskell or even Lisp.
• molteanu 1y ago
  Oh, there's even an Emacs' package to configure your programmable keyboard with elisp! [1] Full disclosure: I've made that! [1] https://github.com/mihaiolteanu/mugur https://github.com/mihaiolteanu/mugur
• quantummagic 1y ago
  I use a $20 keyboard/mousepad combo. But with the open source Kanata keyboard software, it's more powerful and configurable than QMK. It's brilliant. Not for everybody, but even the author in the article said 80% of the value add, is QMK.
• npstr 1y ago
  I had some RSI at the start of corona from too much home office + gaming, what actually helped was getting a trackball (Kensington Slimblade Pro) for $work tasks. Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc. I think most of what is told and sold in ergonomics is snake oil. I don't believe ortholinear is any good for it, and minimizing movement also seems really questionable to me. I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs. I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard. I have to accommodate Linux ($work), Windows (gaming), Mac (personal projects, open uni). That's already challenging enough to get these have similar shortcuts. I use a keychron K5 pro that supports all OSs. I can work efficiently in all situations, with all OSs, with just a single screen. Having a more specialized keyboard (or otherwise setup, like relying too heavily on multi-monitors), wouid overall surely be detrimental, during the times I could not use it. What I've learned to avoid pain: Wrists should be straight. For me, a slim keyboard helps to achieve that, flat on the table. Hands should have some room apart, open chest. Small keyboards are bad for that, you'll want a 100% one, or a split. Do some lifting, have some muscles. Try a trackball, you might love it. Switch how you are sitting. The best sitting position is the next one. Get up to think, go for breaks. Don't overly specialize into some local/global optimum that is a moving target over your lifetime. Use defaults. Mostly boring setup with some minor personal tweaks can go a long way.
  • rollcat 1y ago
    Context: I've been daily driving an Ergodox since 2019. > And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc. Personally, I find that a layer key is little different from a standard modifier key such as Cmd, Alt, etc. Yep, it's one more thing to learn, but IMHO it's worth learning: on macOS, you can use Cmd+arrow to move around text pretty much the same way H/E/Pu/Pd works, but with Mod+arrow, you can just transfer this muscle memory to other systems. I agree with the lack of F-keys, this is a stupid trend that caught early on, and now no designer seems to be willing to challenge it. I have a different reason though (I prefer Cmd+R or similar to Recompile/Run/etc), and it's games. This is my StarCraft 2 layout: <https://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8b8dcd36c0abccf430b4160ad899b879 https://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8b8dcd36c0abc...> SC2 is insanely demanding on your raw mechanics, and adding a layer is unquestionably a Bad Idea. For many commands (production, upgrades, some spells), modal input is hardcoded into the engine. The layout I built is much more optimized than standard hotkeys, but the lack of F-keys is brutal and hindering (esp. for Zerg). Regardless, I've improved A LOT with this layout - which makes me think, how you make it work for you is more important than the shape of it. > I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs. The design goal was never to increase speed (that's mostly mechanics), but to allow a more comfortable posture. > I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard. Again subjective, but I have zero problems switching between ortholinear and staggered. > Use defaults. Disagree (: most defaults suck. Best case, they're opinionated but thoughtful. A consensus is a compromise - always questionable. Worst: "we're now just stuck with it". These all suck, because they're someone else's opinion. And it's in your right to disagree.
• Symbiote 1y ago
  I put together https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ a while ago to help decide between ergonomic keyboards. However, it's not become a hobby, and I'm satisfied with the keyboards I bought in 2019 and have no plans to replace them. If anyone is interested in taking over the site, I'm willing to transfer the repository, which should mean GitHub make an HTTP redirect.
• JSR_FDED 1y ago
  I had rapidly worsening RSI, thought my career as a developer was ending. Switching to VIM completely solved it. Not to take away from what fancy keyboards can do for you, but if you were already contemplating VIM then this would be a great (additional) reason to try it.
• ryangibb 1y ago
  Given the website, is worth noting that keyboards like this can avoid the infamous Emacs pinky. I've got the keys two rows below the homerow bound to the modifiers right alt, super, alt, control, and shift. And reversed on the other hand. This makes any modifier shortcuts very ergonomic -- one hand 'chords' the modifiers and the other hits the non-modifier key.
• TacticalCoder 1y ago
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• nickzelei 1y ago
  I bought a moonlander in 2020 after work gave us a work from home credit when we transitioned to remote for Covid. I tried it but couldn’t get into it and it sat collecting dust for years. In 2024 I dove back into splits with a kinesis freestyle 2. I loved it as it felt more natural as it’s a basic keyboard just split. After I got used to that I was able to migrate to the moonlander pretty easily. I just had to spend the time to sent it up properly for programming. Now I own 2, each with the platform addon, which solves many of the issues with tenting as you no longer have to pivot the thumb cluster. It is expensive though. Both keyboards also have shrimp switches to make typing pretty quiet. This combined with a ball mouse have solved my RSI that developed a few years ago entirely.
• larrry 1y ago
  I have had bad cubital tunnel in the past, enough so that I was learning to become ambidextrous to stop using my left hand. A surgery helped tremendously in my case, but I’m still prone to flare ups if I overuse my pinky. An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I’ve reprogrammed it so I don’t need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys (goodbye left shift, you’ve pained me for too long). I fully agree with the articles advice; pair a good programmable keyboard with physical activity to keep the hands working long term. Be warned though: the more customized your keyboard the harder it is type when using a laptop or friends keyboard.
  • sesm 1y ago
    I'm using Ergodox for 9 years and still can touch type fluently on laptop keyboard. However, I never do heavy programming tasks on the laptop, only messaging, notes and small fixes. I think the more customized your Ergodox layout is the easier it is for the brain to treat 2 different keyboards as 2 different input devices.
• ChoGGi 1y ago
  Kinda off topic for this discussion, but has anyone found a 8 key macro keyboard that doesn't wear out after a few months? It seems to be the usb plug failing that does it.
• spit2wind 1y ago
  Steno is 100% the way to go to avoid and heal RSI. Infinitely more ergonomic. It also erases much of the difference between Emacs and VIM (assuming you use repeat and 1up). Yes, it has to be learned. But you already learned Emacs or VIM, so clearly you're not afraid to invest a little now for a big return later (e.g. no RSI). It's also fun.
• anotherevan 1y ago
  Long time MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 user. My search continues for an 80% split keyboard, where the important programming keys haven't been repositioned or worse, moved to a secondary layer (like braces/parenthesis, pipe/backslash, question mark/slash). I do like the idea of thumb keys, but would probably need them as duplicates to the more traditional positions. I got a Keyboardio 100 which is absolutely beautiful, but 60% with layers for those above important keys just was too freaking hard.
  • sagarm 1y ago
    I'm very confused about an 80% that allegedly moves ANY keys other than navigation, numpad, or f-keys. Any 65% will meet your requirements. As for <60%: use that neuroplasticity. Stave off dementia. You can do it.
    • anotherevan 1y ago
      You're right regarding 65%. The extra 15% is the arrow keys, Page up/down, home, end and delete keys. Found I often hit these one handed while the other hand is on the mouse, so a secondary layer that would require two hands to activate would be problematic. There's neuroplasticity and there's picking your battles. :-)
      • sagarm 1y ago
        I had my own set of keys and combinations I wanted to hit while mousing, mostly space and cut/copy/paste. I just made sure I had those on a layer activated by my left thumb on my left hand. My layout would not work for you since I put navigation on the right hand (close to where it would be normally), but do whatever works for you. Personally I use navigation keys much more on my split because they're right under my fingers. Having VIM movement keys everywhere is quite nice.
• peterdstallion 1y ago
  It's my go-to keyboard. I can't recommend it enough. My only regret is I didn't buy it earlier. It's definitely way more ergonomic - I believe that's incredibly important if you're going to be spending decades in front of a screen. At the very least don't make it easy to be hunched over. Last but not least - coming from a non-mechanical keyboard before - the switch is super satisfying.
• wodenokoto 1y ago
  I dipped my toes in mechanical keyboards by going from an Apple keyboard to the low profile keyChron. I really like the idea of custom keycaps and tinkering with different clickers but in the end I just type better on the Apple keyboard. Got the flat Logitech for work where we use windows. I’m not saying this is the right choice for everyone but low profile and low travel is nice on the wrists and nice to type on, and it just might also be the right choice for you. It’s a lot more boring though. As for ergonomics, just stay away from the home row. I don’t know why that’s a recommended position, but I can see why you’d get wrist pain if you are placing your fingers on the home row most of the time.
• fooker 1y ago
  Here’s a reminder to everyone that you don’t have to spend 300$ to use a great mechanical keyboard. Get a decent cheap one (ideally with switchable switches!) for 50, use it for a while, then figure out if you want better switches (20-30$ for the best ones). If you want to make keyboards your hobby, sure, go nuts. But also consider using the keyboard, you know—as an input device to a computer, to build something great!
• bmar 1y ago
  I've had a Moonlander for a few years now and it's been incredible. The tenting and split layout completely fixed my hand and wrist pain. I can't say I've had the same problems with quality as the author. The tenting can wobble if it's not tightened in a balanced position, but once it is, I haven't had it loosen. And the palm rests seem fine to me, but I've learned to put less pressure on my palms. The only issue I've had is the keyboard sliding away from you due to low friction when tented. My board also came with Cherry MX Browns, which used for a couple of years. I recently switched to low profile key caps and Akko switches for a nicer tactile feel. With tenting, I felt like the cap height and travel distance was too large.
• pacha3000 1y ago
  I bought the Moonlander a year ago, and I completely regret it for the reason you mention: the horrible palm rest. It's wobbly, and when I contacted them, they told me that in the "ideal setup", my wrists aren't support to rest on them. Palm rests where you can't rest your palms. I'm really frustrated, because I love everything else from this keyboard. But those wobbles really do make it unusable.
  • exitb 1y ago
    What they probably meant was that your wrists shouldn't be supported WHILE typing. You should only rest them while they're actually resting. Usually wrist trouble signals that you should be sitting higher/move the desk lower.
• bee_rider 1y ago
  I have a Kinesis Freestyle Pro that I sort of like. Although, I think tenting and split is honestly 99% of the value here, I don’t really get the whole mechanical keyboard click clacky thing. I actually prefer the key pressing experience of something like an Apple Magic Keyboard, nice and crisp and immediate. But, tenting is not optional as far as I’m concerned, it is mandatory. Eventually the little rubbery feet fell off the tenting attachment. In a moment of frustration I wrapped the tenting attachment in tennis racket overgrip, which actually drastically improves the feeling of the thing IMO, it really keeps the keyboard in place and removes a lot of the creaky noises from the plastic tenting kits. It looks like Moonlander tenting kits tend to be a bit more aggressive than what you get with Kinesis, though, so maybe it doesn’t apply.
  • ericwood 1y ago
    This is exactly how I feel; I'd love a switch that performs like the modern apple keyboards. Anytime I've dipped my toe into mechanical keyboard waters I've lost speed and accuracy, even after weeks of practice. The extra key travel felt like it gave me more fatigue, even with low profile switches. Whenever I've researched alternatives I get the sense I'm in the minority, though, and most mechanical keyboard users are after a very different feel. It's a huge shame, because I'd love to move to something with a split for better shoulder/arm positioning.
    • bee_rider 1y ago
      Cherry apparently has scissor switches. I wonder if it’s possible to buy them individually and make a keyboard like the mechanical keyboard fans do.
• linsomniac 1y ago
  I've had a Moonlander for a couple years, and an ErgoDox Ez for 3-4 years before that, and, honestly, I'm looking to move to something else. My biggest issue seems to be that I'm switching between a Macbook and the Moonlander all the time, and the Moonlander I just find myself making too many dumb typos on. In particular, I think the ortholinear layout isn't doing me any favors, and the missing extra keys on the right (particularly the missing "+" key) I really struggle with. I do love the thumb clusters, but as the article above says, the red button I never use. The real star of the show is the programmable firmware. I have a lot of custom mappings on my main layer that I really love, with dual use keys being a big one (z and / are control if held for example). The Framework 16 keyboard with QMK firmware sounds really, really good to me. Unfortunately, my next keyboard doesn't seem to exist: Low profile mechanical switches, QMK or similar firmware, split, thumb clusters, staggered layout, enough keys to have []\ on the right. The low profile seems to be the killer there.
  • steinso 1y ago
    Could not agree more, it's frustrating that there seems to be such a focus on the 'mechanical' aspect of these keyboards instead of the ergonomic and programmable which are the real stars. I would love just a low profile programmable keyboard with 5 individual keys instead of the long space bar. That would tick all my boxes.
    • alfalfasprout 1y ago
      You could explore a different paradigm entirely. The svalboard (https://svalboard.com/ https://svalboard.com/) is the modern evolution of the datahands and goes much further than mere thumb clusters and programmable firmware. Really great and active community too!
  • Jenk 1y ago
    You may be interested in the Glove80[0]. I moved from the Moonlander to it for the very same reason. I have since moved on to a very small form-factor (Pteron36, which has just 36 keys) as I my hands started to tire from reaching for the keys on the perimeter so chopped right down. Or get the soldering iron out and build one of the many kits available[1] [0]: https://moergo.com https://moergo.com [1]: https://golem.hu/board/list/low-profile https://golem.hu/board/list/low-profile
• clippy99 1y ago
  Lengthy article but not even one image of the Moonlander. OP, why do you make me Google it?
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
• iamunr 1y ago
  I tried the Ergodox (not the Moonlander) for ages, couldn't get into their thumb cluster. I have been a die hard fan of Keyboardio and their Model 01/100 since their first kickstarter. Similar benefits, better quality, and personally an improved layout. The fun-key being on my palm is incredible. https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-100 https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-100
• lanfeust6 1y ago
  My intuition is that being a split keyboard provides a good part of the benefit, informed by my experience with a no-frills split keyboard.
• jasonlotito 1y ago
  My biggest issues with these type keyboards are the non-standard layouts. Kinesis gives you a standard layout. These other ones do not. I will NOT always be using the same keyboard everywhere I go, and muscle memory is something I have and want to benefit from. I see no benefit to me in learning a unique, one-off, non-standard layout that is effectively vendor lockin. Even ZSA can't keep a consistent layout.
  • walthamstow 1y ago
    I've been using a Keychron split that has almost exactly the same layout as my MacBook. It's not as flash as the Moonlander or others, it doesn't have tenting or an ortholinear layout, but just by being split it sorted my shoulder/centre-back pain out, and I can switch between that and an Apple keyboard no problem.
• ARandomerDude 1y ago
  I've had a Moonlander and a few other ergo mechanical keyboards. I never liked them and they didn't seem to help my forearm pain as much as I hoped. After a lot of time and well over $1,000, the 2 things that solved it for me were: (1) get a soft, membrane-style wireless keyboard and put it in my lap when I type. I've found the Logitech MX Keys to be the most comfortable. (2) Use compression arm bands when typing. They're cheap. All-in, you're looking at about $150 for a high-comfort solution. YMMV.
• RS-232 1y ago
  If you like the 7-row ThinkPad keyboard, the Tex Shinobi is awesome. It even comes with an OEM red trackpoint nipple but I swapped mine out for a blue one.
• dangerface 1y ago
  ZSA Moonlander is an easy avoid. They have a defect on their thumb cluster, the plastic that holds them to the main board is thin and breaks after a few years of use. Good thing they sell spares so they can be easily repaired but bad thing is trying to order them. They don't want just any one buying parts and even sending a photo proof you own a broken Moonlander is not acceptable, they want a receipt of the original purchase or they refuse to sell them.
• jweather 1y ago
  My daily driver is an Allium58 not too different from the Moonlander. I love having modifier keys to set up macro functions and layers. My favorites from an ergonomics standpoint are Mod1+WASD for arrow keys (Q=home, E=end), Mod1+Capslock for double-click, and Mod1+Tab for middle click (my trackball doesn't have one). It didn't take too long to get to a faster WPM than I had on my previous 101-key mechanical, and I can go back to normal keyboards when I have to.
• wry_discontent 1y ago
  The only ergo keyboard I've ever enjoyed is the ZSA Voyager. I tried the Kinesis, the Ergodox, and the Moonlander, but something about them didn't quite suit me. I think they all had similarly oversized thumb clusters, which I found very uncomfortable. My current setup is the Voyager with homerow mods, which is super comfortable and I manage to mostly avoid typos. edit: I should also say I'm an avid Emacs user.
  • jamesbvaughan 1y ago
    +1 to the Voyager. I switched to it a few years ago from the Moonlander and have been really happy with it. I like the smaller footprint, and the fact that it has fewer keys. Having fewer keys has forced me to create layers that keep everything within a closer reach so I'm stretching my fingers out to the edge keys less than I did with the Moonlander. I split my time about 50/50 between the Voyager and my macbook's keyboard and mostly have no problem with the difference in layouts, but I wish I could set up layers on the macbook keyboard the same way I can with the Voyager.
    • wry_discontent 1y ago
      You can do some of it with Karabiner Elements and/or Kanata, but I don't think it's quite as good. I couldn't get the timing working as well with those so the layers were more trouble than they were worth.
• blamestross 1y ago
  The moonlander's firmware approach is the critical feature for me. Its a customizable ergonomic keyboard that requires zero special software on the host machine. It enables me to use the full features of the keyboard on highly restricted work machines. I also bounce operating systems a lot, so I programmed multiple layers (and light color pallets) to unify all the different os keymaps. If I am on a mac, hit the useless red button until the keyboard turns green. On windows, until it turns blue. On debian, until it turns red. Then just go. Its a lot of work to setup initially, but then it works everywhere forever.
  • babblingfish 1y ago
    I've considered doing this with my Moonlander, but it always seemed like too much effort. Do you have basically use a separate layer for each OS?
• CarVac 1y ago
  My opinion on column stagger ergo keyboards: everyone's hands differ, and there is no one-size-fits-all. The amount of pinky stagger and the thumb cluster position are critically important for comfort. Personally I use a handwired Mitosis (the original Mitosis was unreliable for me but the layout perfect). Ergodox is awful for me, particularly the reaching needed to use the thumb cluster.
  • lawn 1y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree. The Ergodox is god-damned horrible for me and I've struggled a lot to find a good thumb cluster. The Ferris comes close but in the end I configured and 3D printed my own keyboard, tailored specifically for me: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/building_my_ultimate_keyboard/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/building_my_ulti...
• redelbee 1y ago
  First off, I appreciate the thorough explanation and review of the ZSA Moonlander. That said, I’m here to discuss the “visual ergonomics” of this post. Why is justified text so bad on the web? And why do people still use it, despite how terrible it looks? When I was in journalism school I learned how to properly justify text with line breaks, tracking, and other techniques to make sure we didn’t have “rivers” of blank space through the text or other hard-to-read layouts. Is there no way to achieve the same readable outcome today with CSS, or otherwise? If not, I beg of you: Please don’t use justified text on the web!
• alfiedotwtf 1y ago
  There’s nothing more fitting than a completely customisable keyboard for an Emacs enthusiast! Thinking now though, it would be cool to have Emacs layers on a keyboard to cover C-x etc. Side note: in 2025 it would have been nice if ZSA would make a wireless version :(
• sleepybrett 1y ago
  IMO the moonlander and other ergodox type boards are nothing but worse kinesis advantage / dacyl keyboards. By flattening the keywells the board requires more reach and worse outcomes though the thumbpads will probably help with most peoples wrist issues.
• Cyphus 1y ago
  In regards to the tenting not staying in place, put some threadlocker on the bolts. It does wonders. I got some threadlocker to stop my adjustable bar stool feet from slowly unscrewing themselves and getting wobbly every week and it's easily the best purchase I've made all year. Anytime I see a loose door knob, chair leg, tripod mount, or adjustment screw, I throw some threadlocker on there and never have to tighten it again.