6 ms·

Europe's EV sales surge 26% in 2025 while Tesla faces decline

65 points by doener 1y ago

anovikov 1y ago
Too little and too late. Draconian measures are necessary to push automakers into compliance and to push consumers to buy. It's expensive unless we want to sell out to China completely, but necessary and in the end, affordable.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  sell out to China completely Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. Let Europe sell tens of billions of ASML EUV machines and Airbus planes to China. Sell what each region is best at. Mutual benefits. Crazy idea right?
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago
    EUV machines are not europe's to sell. It's all american owned IP and the "EUV part" itself is american manufactured.
    - pjc50 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding > ASML Holding N.V. (commonly shortened to ASML, originally standing for Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography) is a Dutch multinational corporation
      - yostrovs 1y ago
        You missed this part in the History section: "In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress."
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        ASML just makes the steppers. The EUV secret sauce is made by Cymer in the US and uses US R&D licensed of Sandia Labs. US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish. ASML has no EU golden goose of its own that's why it has to obey US rules and policies.
        lossolo 1y ago
        > US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish Then why are they not doing it? Isn't it in the national interest? Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? Why is there only one company in the world capable of doing it if they are "just steppers"? btw what is used now in EUV machines are step and scan scanners and ASML builds the whole EUV scanner system (stages, metrology, controls, system integration). Scanners replaced steppers for leading edge nodes. Oh and Cymer is owned by ASML from 2013, so it’s ASML's own US light source business working with TRUMPF (Germany) for the CO2 drive lasers.
        blargthorwars 1y ago
        >Then why are they not doing it? Because ASMR is doing fine by keeping its stuff out of the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? They had a stepper manufacturer, Silicon Valley Group (SVG), and ASML bought it, that's how ASML got the EUV license from the US.
        lossolo 1y ago
        SVG didn’t hand ASML a magic EUV license. ASML bought SVG lithography two decades ago to expand in dry/immersion optical litho and US market access. EUV matured later. SVG had momentum in DUV and still couldn't sustain at 193nm while EUV is an order of magnitude more complex. ASML builds the whole scanner and owns the integration IP that makes the parts actually produce yield at scale. The light source matters but without ASML's stages, metrology, optics integration, contamination control, control software etc etc you've got a science project instead of a tool a fab can run. ASML won because the integration problem beat almost everyone else.
      - porridgeraisin 1y ago
        Just read further into the history section of the same page, you don't have to be obtuse and post the full form of the company, everyone here knows this. The world is nuanced, and this is not reddit.
    - prmoustache 1y ago
      This is not relevant. With AI, US Big-Tech made sure to show the world that IP is not a thing anymore.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      People are downvitng you even though you're right.
      - porridgeraisin 1y ago
        It's a classic
  - lm28469 1y ago
    It's always the same, free market when it goes my way, fuck you if it goes your way. In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west, it would be better to build trust and commerce now than attempt to delay it with artificial borders (tariffs, export bans, &c.), we're just delaying the inevitable and making a (commercial) enemy for no reason
    - myrmidon 1y ago
      > In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west This is not at all obvious or inevitable. The exact same concerns where voiced when much of the electronics industry moved to Japan 30 years ago, but "Japan doing everything better than the west" never really happened. China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia.
      - aurareturn 1y ago
        China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia. And that's totally fine to Chinese people. They don't want to work in a factory forever. They too, would like cushy office jobs.
  - Luker88 1y ago
    More shortsighted than crazy, imho. EU tried that with Russia, then we were dependent on oil/gas, and somehow the dictatorial regime fscked us on Ukraine, and now all of us are wasting so much more time and money. Everybody already knows China is going to invade Taiwan. The global chip market is not going to like that, and this will happen only because we played the good guy with a dictator. And then all of this will be retroactively be seen as aiding and collaborating with evil, again. "Curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal", again and again.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      Why does Europe need to care about Taiwan? Ukraine I get, it's a security concern for us. But some island far away with a tenuous independence claim?
      - Luker88 1y ago
        Ah, to be young and new here. TSMC (taiwan) is the only company that has reached the latest and greatest chips tech. Apple gets their chips from Taiwan only. AMD. Intel. Everyone. Taiwan does not let TSMC export the latest tech, exactly because they would lose USA protection. ...basically it's a 160B$ industry with something like 70% of the global output, as per last year data. Now imagine Taiwan blowing up the industry to prevent China from controlling it, or China destroying the industry to crash the global economy, weaken the USA protection and come back a few years later. China will not be affected much by the sudden non-existence of Taiwan Chip industry. They produce everything internally. The rest of the world would be thrown 5+ years back in terms of tech, and I don't even want to know how much it will take to ramp up older production elsewhere. Remember the problems caused by Covid, where the car industry had problems getting chips? That was a mere shift in who gets the chips first, the production was still there. 70% less global chip production? Buy a cars/computers/whatever as soon as China invades, it's going to last you for a while.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        This still sounds like a problem caused by the US that should be for the US to worry about.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    >Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. The German economy can not survive that. There is no "mutual benefit" when what you are doing is an existential risk to the other side.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      Yea but French and Netherlands economy will be great. German car companies will get a kick in competition and make better cars. Consumers win.
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        The German car industry will not survive and Germany, together with the EU will go through a major economic crisis. That the Netherlands adds 500 jobs making EUV machines is a tiny consolation for mass unemployment in Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary and France with millions of jobs lost. Again, free trade is an insane idea when the proposition of one side is an existential threat to the other side.
        aurareturn 1y ago
        So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? It goes both ways as well. German cars are already suffering in China as tariff retaliation.
        constantcrying 1y ago
        >So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? Certainly the preferable alternative.
- ioteg 1y ago
  Into compliance? Compliance of what? Also why do you want draconian measures to push consumers to buy? Shouldn't you let consumers buy whenever they can afford to change their cars? What kind of draconian measures are you thinking of, emission regulations that make it impossible for poor people to drive their cars?
  - anovikov 1y ago
    Certainly, to limit oil imports and consumption, we should ensure that poor people can't drive gas-powered cars.
    - fidotron 1y ago
      It's not at all clear why poor people should ever want to leave their allocated urban subdivision. We certainly don't want them clogging up tourist spots that should be kept for appreciation by sophisticated wealthy foreigners.
    - ioteg 1y ago
      Why should we limit oil imports and consumption?
      - rmu09 1y ago
        We don't want the CO2 that is created (and other consequences of oil production/consumption), the money can be spent on something better, and we don't want to depend on oil-exporting countries more than necessary.
- epolanski 1y ago
  I don't understand your narrative. We Europeans have sold tens of millions of cars in China for decades. The string attached was that you had to make a joint venture with a local company (which, by the way, shared the risks and increased the margins). Why can't they do so the same here? And I don't want to hear no "because Chinese EV industry got help by government, it's unfair", so what? In Italy alone we've given more than 200B euros to Fiat, which milks governments from Serbia to Poland out of taxpayer money. Tesla has received 16B+ in direct funding from taxpayers in US alone, got more in foreign countries to open plants there. European and American auto industries shouldn't rely on artificially gatekeeping foreign automakers. We've tried with Japan in the 80s forcing them to produce here, now it's China. I don't like any of this, it's against taxpayers, it's against consumers. Free market goes both ways.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >Why can't they do so the same here? They .. ARE? Dacia Spring is essentially a Chinese EV from Renault's joint venture with eGT New Energy Automotive. VW's Cupra Tavascan is made in China and is the product of VW's joint venture with Anhui Jianghuai Automobile Group. And many EU EVs that are of domestic design and production use Chinese developed and manufactured powertrains and batteries. EU EVs are using more and more Chinese tech.
    - epolanski 1y ago
      Was merely pointing out that I don't see anything wrong in it.
- pjc50 1y ago
  The carrot will be much more well received than the stick. Price cap chargers and make sure they're everywhere, including kerbside. Convert public fleets. It's much more reasonable to mandate that local councils and public servant staff cars should be EV-only first; these tend to have short turnover periods of three to five years anyway. That forces the public bodies to actually address the details of adoption. Not to mention buses and public works vehicles like refuse lorries. Expensive, but if the transition has to happen it has to happen. But I think the momentum is there on its own: > In August alone, 154,582 EVs were snapped up, accounting for 20% of all new car sales. Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone. There's a self-reinforcing circle that as more people have EVs, they become more "normal", and the more car-centric policy caters to their needs. People who are irrationally scared speak to friends who own one or ride in EV taxis (actually, taxis are nearly always hybrids at the moment?)
  - ioteg 1y ago
    Nobody is "irrationally scared" of EVs. We are rationally scared that, once enough well-off people have switched to EVs, this market share will be used as an excuse to stop poor people from driving their petrol or diesel cars. ("Rationally" because this is already happening.)
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      Why would that be a bad thing?
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        So fuck the poor people, according to you?
        saubeidl 1y ago
        [flagged]
- gmac 1y ago
  Some automakers are doing better than others. Renault has a range of well-reviewed EVs that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports.
  - waysa 1y ago
    > that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports. That is with EU import tariffs of up to 45.3% on "non-cooperating companies" (such as SAIC Group aka "MG").
    - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
      To compensate for Chinese subsidies/state-aid tilting the market in the Chinese companies favor. It is not Trumpian completely insane tariffs applied without thought. It is a scalpel applied to ensure fair competition.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  How do you want to push Automakers into compliance? Every single European Automaker is begging people to buy their EVs, yet the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be. What would you do to Automakers? Making cars in Europe is getting near impossible, "draconian" measures mean that indeed no European Automaker will make ICE cars any more, because they will all be bankrupt. The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs, even when manufacturers are selling them at prices where they barely break even.
  - myrmidon 1y ago
    > the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be [...] The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs To quote the article: Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone.
  - orwin 1y ago
    I think it really depends on car. A friend of mine bought a R5, it took 6 weeks to be delivered because of the backlog, so I guess: build better cars?
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      Sure and VW has recently announced their competitor car. This of course does not answer the question about which draconic measures the car industry should be subjected to. Additionally, long delays can be for other reasons than high demands.
- storus 1y ago
  Electric grid is incapable of 1:1 switching to EVs from gas/diesel vehicles. If you want to collapse economy, just enforce it with your draconian measures.
  - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
    Not sure why this old talking points keeps being repeated? BEVs are like the best consumers imaginable for our grids. Their owners get hourly contracts and perfectly time their charging when the prices are low helping stabilize the grid. Some even grid companies even support adding cars charging to the ancillary markets further increasing grid reliability - while also paying the BEV owners for their service. Taking in the supply chain from producing oil, refining it and transporting it the change in electricity consumption is negigible because especially the refining step is quite electricity intensive. But if no refining happens in a market then something like a 20-30% increase in electricity usage is expected. Please do tell me how that entails a "collapse"?
    - storus 1y ago
      Because it's true. Most EU countries aren't built to have 100% EV. Not every country is Norway. Spanish or Czech grids collapse from hot weather already, how much worse would it be when you suddenly plug millions of vehicles? With 220V one would need 1-2 days to fully charge continuously to get to 100% depending on battery size; perfect timing is a wishful thinking, you'd get peak charging times as well. Speed chargers are very few and their price is now approaching gas prices already, and electric grid can't bear many of them anyway.
      - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
        You seem to be talking around the issue? Sprinkled with misinformation. Please do tell me when the Spanish and Czech grid collapsed due to "hot weather". Of course not at all engaging with the point about BEVs acting like demand response for a grid. Scheduling their charging to not add more load when the grid is already strained, unless forced to do so due to e.g. being on a roadtrip without possibility of timing the charging and therefore paying a premium for expensive electricity. All in all I see a lot of hand waving and little substance. Did you miss the portion where on average the refinement of raw crude to gasoline/diesel is neutral in terms of electricity usage compared to just driving a BEV?
- hopelite 1y ago
  Well I sure did not have EV totalitarianism on my bingo card. So all the European societies need to be forced and pushed with draconian measures and punishments, while racist excuses are made for why other groups are exempt from these climate punishments. It is textbook abusive guilt shifting of narcissism. It’s not like most politicians are not grandiose, especially the ones who not only think they are some form of special one’s chosen by God, but have even just effectively declared themselves to be the only God they need (i.e., some form of external regulation). Talk about peak grandiose narcissism, this time with robots and AI.
rmu09 1y ago
US made cars had the reputation of being low quality, too big, too heavy and too inefficient for european cities. Tesla was somewhat different. People bought Teslas not for their promised "self driving" capabilities (I know no Tesla driver that took those promises at face value or got the FSD option FWIW), but one motivation was to "stick it" to snobbish arrogant european manufacturers wanting to develop "clean" ICEs with "green fuels" or other non-sensical crimes against thermodynamics like H2-cars. Now, Tesla (and the US in general) has a brand toxicity problem, and it is worsening. People I know that would consider a Tesla some years ago now drive electric VWs or BWMs or KIAs, often times much more expensive cars than the comparable Tesla 3 / Y model. This trend will probably continue the next years, and I don't see a way for Tesla to repair the brand image.
- estearum 1y ago
  For what it's worth, Tesla is by a gigantic margin the lowest quality-for-dollar American vehicle you can buy. The EV thing was unique until it wasn't.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    All the manufacturers are closer together in pretty much every attribute than car-illiterate internet fanboys and haters make it out to be.
    - estearum 1y ago
      You don't need to be car literate to know that a $90,000 Tesla interior feels on par with a bottom of the line Nissan Sentra. I'm not sure you can even buy another American-made car that feels so cheap? Curious if people have an idea of what American make/model feels worse to sit in.
    - Gud 1y ago
      This is completely false. Tesla commanded a premium when it was the only long range EV in time, despite its crappy build quality. Now everyone else has catched with equal drive trains but better build quality.
m101 1y ago
Electric car sales were 20% of all sales, so 26% increase is hardly a "surge". Going from a low base this is supposed to be higher. I think what we are seeing is that electric car interest isn't as strong as governments hoped for. I used to own an electric car now I'm back to a hybrid. Q4 sales in the US will be interesting because of the removal of the tax credits and the increasing electricity prices that AI is causing. Low prices of fuel in the US means that it's not exactly cheaper to run an electric car in the US.
- maelito 1y ago
  > I think what we are seeing is that electric car interest isn't as strong as governments hoped for. I used to own an electric car now I'm back to a hybrid. In France, there is a wide anti-electric campaign. From the "leftist-green" media such as Reporterre, to the right wing ones. Same for political parties, from the left PCF to the right RN. It's a battle.
  - phtrivier 1y ago
    I don't know how much the battle matters, compared to pure money. For example, according to this source, people bought less BEVs in May because... they want to benefit from the government subsidy later this year. So maybe the headline will read "incredible success" six months after having read "terrible failure". [1] Surprisingly, BEVs are _more_ visible in the country side (where many smaller models make complete sense as a "second car" for a household that needs to drop kids at school, get the groceries, etc...) than in cities. Never mind. Even more surprisingly, people do buy some French EVs, even though, well... our glorious national brands have spent the last few years working hard on removing the knobs from the autoradio, and that justified all the "R&D tax rebate" they could get, but sadly none was left for chemists and physicists to increase range, lower prices, etc... Again, go figure. [1] https://www.go-electra.com/fr/newsroom/ventes-voitures-electriques-2025/ https://www.go-electra.com/fr/newsroom/ventes-voitures-elect...
    - zorobo 1y ago
      > Surprisingly, BEVs are _more_ visible in the country side (where many smaller models make complete sense as a "second car" for a household that needs to drop kids at school, get the groceries, etc...) than in cities. Never mind. Not that surprising; countryside folks own houses and can charge at home for cheap, while city dwellers generally can't and have to use overpriced, inconvenient public charging.
ebisoka 1y ago
>as more people embrace electric mobility. As companies embrace tax-exemptions for company cars and people who get them are limited to choose EV only. Free Government Regulated Capitalism.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Eh. Company cars are barely a thing at all in Ireland anymore (the tax system doesn't encourage them); electric cars sell pretty well.
maelito 1y ago
Still, Europe has no electric-only brand. We need it. Let the thermal engine models die.
- prmoustache 1y ago
  I think by 2030 new ICE passenger vehicles are supposed to be banned. There are a few electric-only brands but for smaller vehicles.
  - zorobo 1y ago
    No it's 2035. Industry actors are fighting hard to postpone or allow for more flexibility. -> https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/podcasts/culture-de-l-info/la-commission-europeenne-va-reexaminer-l-interdiction-prevue-en-2035-des-vehicules-a-moteur-thermique-8414923 https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/podcasts/culture-de...
  - tpm 1y ago
    It's 2035 and it is not a strict ban, rather it's a fine of 95 euro/1g of CO2 emmissions above 0g/km, so it's 9500 euro for a car emitting 100g/km, for example. That is to be paid by the manufacturer for every such car sold. So if Porsche decides it can sell their gas hogs emitting 200g/km and the customers will swallow the 20k fine, in theory they could. The limits and fines are getting progressively tighter since 2020, with steps in 2025, 2030 and the final step in 2035.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  EU doesn't really like to do start-ups in traditional fields dominated by century-old players, so the policies all focus on protecting those monopolists and not helping create startup to disrupt them or that could threaten them. That's why they were anti-EV for so long, since that threatened their lucrative ICE dominance.
  - maelito 1y ago
    Well that's a problem. But I believe you're wrong. Lots of startups tackle old problems and succeed. The best example would be Alan, for health insurance. They're a startup in a traditional field dominated by half-a-century players. Indy is another example : enterprise accounting is very old. It wasn't industrial, now it is, online. Decathlon's bikes did destroy old players of this field. Mistral crushed every French decade-old IT companies in the LLM domain. Etc.
JensRantil 1y ago
In Sweden, Tesla is also involved in a conflict with our Unions. https://www.transport.se/publicerat/info-english-tesla-conflict https://www.transport.se/publicerat/info-english-tesla-confl... This has an added bad smell for Tesla, on top of the bad reputation that Musk already has associated the brand with.
vessenes 1y ago
Question - anyone here have one of those “most popular” VWs? The article says they’re called id.3 id.5 and id.7. I’ve ridden in an e-Golf (California compliance car basically), but not the newer ones. The e-Golf did not impress, so I’m curious if the new ones are any good; range, noise, fit and finish, basically.
- lnsru 1y ago
  First generation of ID.something was bad joke. Second generation is all right. Some people still complain about software, but I don’t have first hand experience anymore.
- ljf 1y ago
  Not sure which of the three, but afriend bought one new here in the UK for around £22k - which at the time the dealer assured him he could sell back to them at £15-18k a year later. He needed the car to tide him over to a work based EV scheme. A year later the dealer said he'd be lucky to get £8kfor private sale and that the dealership didn't want the car as had 5 on forecourt already. He's kept the car and loved it, but 2nd hand EV prices here can be great (or bad if you are a seller) - I saw a 10year old Nissan Note EV for £1K the other day - if I already had a charger I would have snapped it up, even if the range was less than 50 miles now.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  >I’ve ridden in an e-Golf (California compliance car basically), but not the newer ones. It wasn't (just?) a compliance car. It was a testbed for EV development by VW. The ID Models have had serious software problems, the ID.7 is the newest and best one. An even smaller car than the ID.3 was announced some weeks ago.
  - fifilura 1y ago
    But still. Despite some initial problems, the ID platform is a real EV with high quality and should not be compared to a testbed design from 2014. I think the numbers speak for themselves.
- deleted 1y ago
seanalltogether 1y ago
I don't know anything about Tesla cars or how good they are, and I don't know anything about BYD cars or how good they are. But I can say that 4 door BYD cars are advertised around here for less then £20,000. While 4 door Teslas appear to start around £40,000. That's a pretty big difference when considering a first time electric car.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  A £20k BYD is going to be a super short range model though. I think models that compete with Tesla are more like £30k, which is still a lot cheaper than Tesla but not quite as crazy as you're saying. Let me check: Yeah Model 3 base is £40k for claimed 323 miles, or £45 for 436 miles. BYD Dolphin is £30k for claimed 265 miles. Dolphin Surf (which is a lot smaller than a Model 3) is £19, £22, £24k for 137, 200, 193 miles. I guess £22k for 200 mile range is not as bad as I was expecting actually. But still you can see why people who can afford it would still buy a Tesla. (Or an equivalent not sold by a twat.)
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  Stripped down Model Y is coming, was unearthed just a day or two before. Still going to be far more expensive for being overall larger, higher range, better tech. There's no real ways for Tesla to cut cost without building smaller car (all while Americans are demanding larger model lol).
joakleaf 1y ago
Here is a list of EV sales in Europe by country first half 2025: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2025-half-year-europe-car-and-bev-sales-by-european-country/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2025-half-year-euro... This gives a much much more nuanced look, and it doesn't look as completely clear cut as the headline implies. For example: Spain saw an increase of 83.9% and France a decline of 6.9% ... And then you see that Denmark bought as many EVs as spain, although Spain has 10x population.
- tpm 1y ago
  I also like this: https://robbieandrew.github.io/carsales/ https://robbieandrew.github.io/carsales/
p0w3n3d 1y ago
To me the article sounds like "The guys we hate have decline" - (from 100k sold to 95k sold) "but the sales of the guys we love surge 26%" (from 10 to 12.6k)
- p0w3n3d 1y ago
  it's nice that I'm getting minus points, but this is the case here. Tesla sold c.a. 100k and the decline is (I was mistaken) 30% which means that they lost 42k models sold, but the 36% increase on the sold cars for VW for example is from 33-44k which is 10k more. That's the basics of percents, +x% is not equal -x% and Tesla is still leading. Tesla is also leading in the amount of luggage (important for me), however the interior of EU cars looks much better (with exception for model S, which has actual hud, not a wooden plank under the windshield)
burnerzzzzz 1y ago
I would have considered a tesla if it wasn’t for the fascist sigma
karmakurtisaani 1y ago
A friend of mine is in the process of getting a car. He insists on having an EV, but never a Tesla as long as Elon is benefiting from it. So he's going for an VW ID3 instead. Many people must be thinking like this as well.
amai 1y ago
Remember: Hitler salutes are bad marketing for your brand. https://youtu.be/lw4ZjhOukwU https://youtu.be/lw4ZjhOukwU

65 points by doener 1y ago

Too little and too late. Draconian measures are necessary to push automakers into compliance and to push consumers to buy. It's expensive unless we want to sell out to China completely, but necessary and in the end, affordable.

aurareturn 1y ago
sell out to China completely Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. Let Europe sell tens of billions of ASML EUV machines and Airbus planes to China. Sell what each region is best at. Mutual benefits. Crazy idea right?
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  EUV machines are not europe's to sell. It's all american owned IP and the "EUV part" itself is american manufactured.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding > ASML Holding N.V. (commonly shortened to ASML, originally standing for Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography) is a Dutch multinational corporation
    - yostrovs 1y ago
      You missed this part in the History section: "In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress."
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      ASML just makes the steppers. The EUV secret sauce is made by Cymer in the US and uses US R&D licensed of Sandia Labs. US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish. ASML has no EU golden goose of its own that's why it has to obey US rules and policies.
      - lossolo 1y ago
        > US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish Then why are they not doing it? Isn't it in the national interest? Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? Why is there only one company in the world capable of doing it if they are "just steppers"? btw what is used now in EUV machines are step and scan scanners and ASML builds the whole EUV scanner system (stages, metrology, controls, system integration). Scanners replaced steppers for leading edge nodes. Oh and Cymer is owned by ASML from 2013, so it’s ASML's own US light source business working with TRUMPF (Germany) for the CO2 drive lasers.
        blargthorwars 1y ago
        >Then why are they not doing it? Because ASMR is doing fine by keeping its stuff out of the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? They had a stepper manufacturer, Silicon Valley Group (SVG), and ASML bought it, that's how ASML got the EUV license from the US.
        lossolo 1y ago
        SVG didn’t hand ASML a magic EUV license. ASML bought SVG lithography two decades ago to expand in dry/immersion optical litho and US market access. EUV matured later. SVG had momentum in DUV and still couldn't sustain at 193nm while EUV is an order of magnitude more complex. ASML builds the whole scanner and owns the integration IP that makes the parts actually produce yield at scale. The light source matters but without ASML's stages, metrology, optics integration, contamination control, control software etc etc you've got a science project instead of a tool a fab can run. ASML won because the integration problem beat almost everyone else.
    - porridgeraisin 1y ago
      Just read further into the history section of the same page, you don't have to be obtuse and post the full form of the company, everyone here knows this. The world is nuanced, and this is not reddit.
  - prmoustache 1y ago
    This is not relevant. With AI, US Big-Tech made sure to show the world that IP is not a thing anymore.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    People are downvitng you even though you're right.
    - porridgeraisin 1y ago
      It's a classic
- lm28469 1y ago
  It's always the same, free market when it goes my way, fuck you if it goes your way. In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west, it would be better to build trust and commerce now than attempt to delay it with artificial borders (tariffs, export bans, &c.), we're just delaying the inevitable and making a (commercial) enemy for no reason
  - myrmidon 1y ago
    > In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west This is not at all obvious or inevitable. The exact same concerns where voiced when much of the electronics industry moved to Japan 30 years ago, but "Japan doing everything better than the west" never really happened. China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia. And that's totally fine to Chinese people. They don't want to work in a factory forever. They too, would like cushy office jobs.
- Luker88 1y ago
  More shortsighted than crazy, imho. EU tried that with Russia, then we were dependent on oil/gas, and somehow the dictatorial regime fscked us on Ukraine, and now all of us are wasting so much more time and money. Everybody already knows China is going to invade Taiwan. The global chip market is not going to like that, and this will happen only because we played the good guy with a dictator. And then all of this will be retroactively be seen as aiding and collaborating with evil, again. "Curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal", again and again.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Why does Europe need to care about Taiwan? Ukraine I get, it's a security concern for us. But some island far away with a tenuous independence claim?
    - Luker88 1y ago
      Ah, to be young and new here. TSMC (taiwan) is the only company that has reached the latest and greatest chips tech. Apple gets their chips from Taiwan only. AMD. Intel. Everyone. Taiwan does not let TSMC export the latest tech, exactly because they would lose USA protection. ...basically it's a 160B$ industry with something like 70% of the global output, as per last year data. Now imagine Taiwan blowing up the industry to prevent China from controlling it, or China destroying the industry to crash the global economy, weaken the USA protection and come back a few years later. China will not be affected much by the sudden non-existence of Taiwan Chip industry. They produce everything internally. The rest of the world would be thrown 5+ years back in terms of tech, and I don't even want to know how much it will take to ramp up older production elsewhere. Remember the problems caused by Covid, where the car industry had problems getting chips? That was a mere shift in who gets the chips first, the production was still there. 70% less global chip production? Buy a cars/computers/whatever as soon as China invades, it's going to last you for a while.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        This still sounds like a problem caused by the US that should be for the US to worry about.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  >Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. The German economy can not survive that. There is no "mutual benefit" when what you are doing is an existential risk to the other side.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    Yea but French and Netherlands economy will be great. German car companies will get a kick in competition and make better cars. Consumers win.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      The German car industry will not survive and Germany, together with the EU will go through a major economic crisis. That the Netherlands adds 500 jobs making EUV machines is a tiny consolation for mass unemployment in Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary and France with millions of jobs lost. Again, free trade is an insane idea when the proposition of one side is an existential threat to the other side.
      - aurareturn 1y ago
        So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? It goes both ways as well. German cars are already suffering in China as tariff retaliation.
        constantcrying 1y ago
        >So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? Certainly the preferable alternative.
ioteg 1y ago
Into compliance? Compliance of what? Also why do you want draconian measures to push consumers to buy? Shouldn't you let consumers buy whenever they can afford to change their cars? What kind of draconian measures are you thinking of, emission regulations that make it impossible for poor people to drive their cars?
- anovikov 1y ago
  Certainly, to limit oil imports and consumption, we should ensure that poor people can't drive gas-powered cars.
  - fidotron 1y ago
    It's not at all clear why poor people should ever want to leave their allocated urban subdivision. We certainly don't want them clogging up tourist spots that should be kept for appreciation by sophisticated wealthy foreigners.
  - ioteg 1y ago
    Why should we limit oil imports and consumption?
    - rmu09 1y ago
      We don't want the CO2 that is created (and other consequences of oil production/consumption), the money can be spent on something better, and we don't want to depend on oil-exporting countries more than necessary.
epolanski 1y ago
I don't understand your narrative. We Europeans have sold tens of millions of cars in China for decades. The string attached was that you had to make a joint venture with a local company (which, by the way, shared the risks and increased the margins). Why can't they do so the same here? And I don't want to hear no "because Chinese EV industry got help by government, it's unfair", so what? In Italy alone we've given more than 200B euros to Fiat, which milks governments from Serbia to Poland out of taxpayer money. Tesla has received 16B+ in direct funding from taxpayers in US alone, got more in foreign countries to open plants there. European and American auto industries shouldn't rely on artificially gatekeeping foreign automakers. We've tried with Japan in the 80s forcing them to produce here, now it's China. I don't like any of this, it's against taxpayers, it's against consumers. Free market goes both ways.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Why can't they do so the same here? They .. ARE? Dacia Spring is essentially a Chinese EV from Renault's joint venture with eGT New Energy Automotive. VW's Cupra Tavascan is made in China and is the product of VW's joint venture with Anhui Jianghuai Automobile Group. And many EU EVs that are of domestic design and production use Chinese developed and manufactured powertrains and batteries. EU EVs are using more and more Chinese tech.
  - epolanski 1y ago
    Was merely pointing out that I don't see anything wrong in it.
pjc50 1y ago
The carrot will be much more well received than the stick. Price cap chargers and make sure they're everywhere, including kerbside. Convert public fleets. It's much more reasonable to mandate that local councils and public servant staff cars should be EV-only first; these tend to have short turnover periods of three to five years anyway. That forces the public bodies to actually address the details of adoption. Not to mention buses and public works vehicles like refuse lorries. Expensive, but if the transition has to happen it has to happen. But I think the momentum is there on its own: > In August alone, 154,582 EVs were snapped up, accounting for 20% of all new car sales. Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone. There's a self-reinforcing circle that as more people have EVs, they become more "normal", and the more car-centric policy caters to their needs. People who are irrationally scared speak to friends who own one or ride in EV taxis (actually, taxis are nearly always hybrids at the moment?)
- ioteg 1y ago
  Nobody is "irrationally scared" of EVs. We are rationally scared that, once enough well-off people have switched to EVs, this market share will be used as an excuse to stop poor people from driving their petrol or diesel cars. ("Rationally" because this is already happening.)
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Why would that be a bad thing?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      So fuck the poor people, according to you?
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        [flagged]
gmac 1y ago
Some automakers are doing better than others. Renault has a range of well-reviewed EVs that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports.
- waysa 1y ago
  > that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports. That is with EU import tariffs of up to 45.3% on "non-cooperating companies" (such as SAIC Group aka "MG").
  - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
    To compensate for Chinese subsidies/state-aid tilting the market in the Chinese companies favor. It is not Trumpian completely insane tariffs applied without thought. It is a scalpel applied to ensure fair competition.
constantcrying 1y ago
How do you want to push Automakers into compliance? Every single European Automaker is begging people to buy their EVs, yet the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be. What would you do to Automakers? Making cars in Europe is getting near impossible, "draconian" measures mean that indeed no European Automaker will make ICE cars any more, because they will all be bankrupt. The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs, even when manufacturers are selling them at prices where they barely break even.
- myrmidon 1y ago
  > the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be [...] The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs To quote the article: Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone.
- orwin 1y ago
  I think it really depends on car. A friend of mine bought a R5, it took 6 weeks to be delivered because of the backlog, so I guess: build better cars?
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    Sure and VW has recently announced their competitor car. This of course does not answer the question about which draconic measures the car industry should be subjected to. Additionally, long delays can be for other reasons than high demands.
storus 1y ago
Electric grid is incapable of 1:1 switching to EVs from gas/diesel vehicles. If you want to collapse economy, just enforce it with your draconian measures.
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago
  Not sure why this old talking points keeps being repeated? BEVs are like the best consumers imaginable for our grids. Their owners get hourly contracts and perfectly time their charging when the prices are low helping stabilize the grid. Some even grid companies even support adding cars charging to the ancillary markets further increasing grid reliability - while also paying the BEV owners for their service. Taking in the supply chain from producing oil, refining it and transporting it the change in electricity consumption is negigible because especially the refining step is quite electricity intensive. But if no refining happens in a market then something like a 20-30% increase in electricity usage is expected. Please do tell me how that entails a "collapse"?
  - storus 1y ago
    Because it's true. Most EU countries aren't built to have 100% EV. Not every country is Norway. Spanish or Czech grids collapse from hot weather already, how much worse would it be when you suddenly plug millions of vehicles? With 220V one would need 1-2 days to fully charge continuously to get to 100% depending on battery size; perfect timing is a wishful thinking, you'd get peak charging times as well. Speed chargers are very few and their price is now approaching gas prices already, and electric grid can't bear many of them anyway.
    - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
      You seem to be talking around the issue? Sprinkled with misinformation. Please do tell me when the Spanish and Czech grid collapsed due to "hot weather". Of course not at all engaging with the point about BEVs acting like demand response for a grid. Scheduling their charging to not add more load when the grid is already strained, unless forced to do so due to e.g. being on a roadtrip without possibility of timing the charging and therefore paying a premium for expensive electricity. All in all I see a lot of hand waving and little substance. Did you miss the portion where on average the refinement of raw crude to gasoline/diesel is neutral in terms of electricity usage compared to just driving a BEV?
hopelite 1y ago
Well I sure did not have EV totalitarianism on my bingo card. So all the European societies need to be forced and pushed with draconian measures and punishments, while racist excuses are made for why other groups are exempt from these climate punishments. It is textbook abusive guilt shifting of narcissism. It’s not like most politicians are not grandiose, especially the ones who not only think they are some form of special one’s chosen by God, but have even just effectively declared themselves to be the only God they need (i.e., some form of external regulation). Talk about peak grandiose narcissism, this time with robots and AI.

rmu09 1y ago

US made cars had the reputation of being low quality, too big, too heavy and too inefficient for european cities. Tesla was somewhat different. People bought Teslas not for their promised "self driving" capabilities (I know no Tesla driver that took those promises at face value or got the FSD option FWIW), but one motivation was to "stick it" to snobbish arrogant european manufacturers wanting to develop "clean" ICEs with "green fuels" or other non-sensical crimes against thermodynamics like H2-cars. Now, Tesla (and the US in general) has a brand toxicity problem, and it is worsening. People I know that would consider a Tesla some years ago now drive electric VWs or BWMs or KIAs, often times much more expensive cars than the comparable Tesla 3 / Y model. This trend will probably continue the next years, and I don't see a way for Tesla to repair the brand image.

estearum 1y ago
For what it's worth, Tesla is by a gigantic margin the lowest quality-for-dollar American vehicle you can buy. The EV thing was unique until it wasn't.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  All the manufacturers are closer together in pretty much every attribute than car-illiterate internet fanboys and haters make it out to be.
  - estearum 1y ago
    You don't need to be car literate to know that a $90,000 Tesla interior feels on par with a bottom of the line Nissan Sentra. I'm not sure you can even buy another American-made car that feels so cheap? Curious if people have an idea of what American make/model feels worse to sit in.
  - Gud 1y ago
    This is completely false. Tesla commanded a premium when it was the only long range EV in time, despite its crappy build quality. Now everyone else has catched with equal drive trains but better build quality.

m101 1y ago

Electric car sales were 20% of all sales, so 26% increase is hardly a "surge". Going from a low base this is supposed to be higher. I think what we are seeing is that electric car interest isn't as strong as governments hoped for. I used to own an electric car now I'm back to a hybrid. Q4 sales in the US will be interesting because of the removal of the tax credits and the increasing electricity prices that AI is causing. Low prices of fuel in the US means that it's not exactly cheaper to run an electric car in the US.

maelito 1y ago
> I think what we are seeing is that electric car interest isn't as strong as governments hoped for. I used to own an electric car now I'm back to a hybrid. In France, there is a wide anti-electric campaign. From the "leftist-green" media such as Reporterre, to the right wing ones. Same for political parties, from the left PCF to the right RN. It's a battle.
- phtrivier 1y ago
  I don't know how much the battle matters, compared to pure money. For example, according to this source, people bought less BEVs in May because... they want to benefit from the government subsidy later this year. So maybe the headline will read "incredible success" six months after having read "terrible failure". [1] Surprisingly, BEVs are _more_ visible in the country side (where many smaller models make complete sense as a "second car" for a household that needs to drop kids at school, get the groceries, etc...) than in cities. Never mind. Even more surprisingly, people do buy some French EVs, even though, well... our glorious national brands have spent the last few years working hard on removing the knobs from the autoradio, and that justified all the "R&D tax rebate" they could get, but sadly none was left for chemists and physicists to increase range, lower prices, etc... Again, go figure. [1] https://www.go-electra.com/fr/newsroom/ventes-voitures-electriques-2025/ https://www.go-electra.com/fr/newsroom/ventes-voitures-elect...
  - zorobo 1y ago
    > Surprisingly, BEVs are _more_ visible in the country side (where many smaller models make complete sense as a "second car" for a household that needs to drop kids at school, get the groceries, etc...) than in cities. Never mind. Not that surprising; countryside folks own houses and can charge at home for cheap, while city dwellers generally can't and have to use overpriced, inconvenient public charging.

ebisoka 1y ago

>as more people embrace electric mobility. As companies embrace tax-exemptions for company cars and people who get them are limited to choose EV only. Free Government Regulated Capitalism.

rsynnott 1y ago
Eh. Company cars are barely a thing at all in Ireland anymore (the tax system doesn't encourage them); electric cars sell pretty well.

maelito 1y ago

Still, Europe has no electric-only brand. We need it. Let the thermal engine models die.

prmoustache 1y ago
I think by 2030 new ICE passenger vehicles are supposed to be banned. There are a few electric-only brands but for smaller vehicles.
- zorobo 1y ago
  No it's 2035. Industry actors are fighting hard to postpone or allow for more flexibility. -> https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/podcasts/culture-de-l-info/la-commission-europeenne-va-reexaminer-l-interdiction-prevue-en-2035-des-vehicules-a-moteur-thermique-8414923 https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/podcasts/culture-de...
- tpm 1y ago
  It's 2035 and it is not a strict ban, rather it's a fine of 95 euro/1g of CO2 emmissions above 0g/km, so it's 9500 euro for a car emitting 100g/km, for example. That is to be paid by the manufacturer for every such car sold. So if Porsche decides it can sell their gas hogs emitting 200g/km and the customers will swallow the 20k fine, in theory they could. The limits and fines are getting progressively tighter since 2020, with steps in 2025, 2030 and the final step in 2035.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
EU doesn't really like to do start-ups in traditional fields dominated by century-old players, so the policies all focus on protecting those monopolists and not helping create startup to disrupt them or that could threaten them. That's why they were anti-EV for so long, since that threatened their lucrative ICE dominance.
- maelito 1y ago
  Well that's a problem. But I believe you're wrong. Lots of startups tackle old problems and succeed. The best example would be Alan, for health insurance. They're a startup in a traditional field dominated by half-a-century players. Indy is another example : enterprise accounting is very old. It wasn't industrial, now it is, online. Decathlon's bikes did destroy old players of this field. Mistral crushed every French decade-old IT companies in the LLM domain. Etc.

JensRantil 1y ago

In Sweden, Tesla is also involved in a conflict with our Unions. https://www.transport.se/publicerat/info-english-tesla-conflict https://www.transport.se/publicerat/info-english-tesla-confl... This has an added bad smell for Tesla, on top of the bad reputation that Musk already has associated the brand with.

vessenes 1y ago

Question - anyone here have one of those “most popular” VWs? The article says they’re called id.3 id.5 and id.7. I’ve ridden in an e-Golf (California compliance car basically), but not the newer ones. The e-Golf did not impress, so I’m curious if the new ones are any good; range, noise, fit and finish, basically.

lnsru 1y ago
First generation of ID.something was bad joke. Second generation is all right. Some people still complain about software, but I don’t have first hand experience anymore.
ljf 1y ago
Not sure which of the three, but afriend bought one new here in the UK for around £22k - which at the time the dealer assured him he could sell back to them at £15-18k a year later. He needed the car to tide him over to a work based EV scheme. A year later the dealer said he'd be lucky to get £8kfor private sale and that the dealership didn't want the car as had 5 on forecourt already. He's kept the car and loved it, but 2nd hand EV prices here can be great (or bad if you are a seller) - I saw a 10year old Nissan Note EV for £1K the other day - if I already had a charger I would have snapped it up, even if the range was less than 50 miles now.
constantcrying 1y ago
>I’ve ridden in an e-Golf (California compliance car basically), but not the newer ones. It wasn't (just?) a compliance car. It was a testbed for EV development by VW. The ID Models have had serious software problems, the ID.7 is the newest and best one. An even smaller car than the ID.3 was announced some weeks ago.
- fifilura 1y ago
  But still. Despite some initial problems, the ID platform is a real EV with high quality and should not be compared to a testbed design from 2014. I think the numbers speak for themselves.
deleted 1y ago

seanalltogether 1y ago

I don't know anything about Tesla cars or how good they are, and I don't know anything about BYD cars or how good they are. But I can say that 4 door BYD cars are advertised around here for less then £20,000. While 4 door Teslas appear to start around £40,000. That's a pretty big difference when considering a first time electric car.

IshKebab 1y ago
A £20k BYD is going to be a super short range model though. I think models that compete with Tesla are more like £30k, which is still a lot cheaper than Tesla but not quite as crazy as you're saying. Let me check: Yeah Model 3 base is £40k for claimed 323 miles, or £45 for 436 miles. BYD Dolphin is £30k for claimed 265 miles. Dolphin Surf (which is a lot smaller than a Model 3) is £19, £22, £24k for 137, 200, 193 miles. I guess £22k for 200 mile range is not as bad as I was expecting actually. But still you can see why people who can afford it would still buy a Tesla. (Or an equivalent not sold by a twat.)
dzhiurgis 1y ago
Stripped down Model Y is coming, was unearthed just a day or two before. Still going to be far more expensive for being overall larger, higher range, better tech. There's no real ways for Tesla to cut cost without building smaller car (all while Americans are demanding larger model lol).

joakleaf 1y ago

Here is a list of EV sales in Europe by country first half 2025: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2025-half-year-europe-car-and-bev-sales-by-european-country/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2025-half-year-euro... This gives a much much more nuanced look, and it doesn't look as completely clear cut as the headline implies. For example: Spain saw an increase of 83.9% and France a decline of 6.9% ... And then you see that Denmark bought as many EVs as spain, although Spain has 10x population.

tpm 1y ago
I also like this: https://robbieandrew.github.io/carsales/ https://robbieandrew.github.io/carsales/

p0w3n3d 1y ago

To me the article sounds like "The guys we hate have decline" - (from 100k sold to 95k sold) "but the sales of the guys we love surge 26%" (from 10 to 12.6k)

p0w3n3d 1y ago
it's nice that I'm getting minus points, but this is the case here. Tesla sold c.a. 100k and the decline is (I was mistaken) 30% which means that they lost 42k models sold, but the 36% increase on the sold cars for VW for example is from 33-44k which is 10k more. That's the basics of percents, +x% is not equal -x% and Tesla is still leading. Tesla is also leading in the amount of luggage (important for me), however the interior of EU cars looks much better (with exception for model S, which has actual hud, not a wooden plank under the windshield)

burnerzzzzz 1y ago

I would have considered a tesla if it wasn’t for the fascist sigma

karmakurtisaani 1y ago

A friend of mine is in the process of getting a car. He insists on having an EV, but never a Tesla as long as Elon is benefiting from it. So he's going for an VW ID3 instead. Many people must be thinking like this as well.

amai 1y ago

Remember: Hitler salutes are bad marketing for your brand. https://youtu.be/lw4ZjhOukwU https://youtu.be/lw4ZjhOukwU