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Overcoming barriers of hydrogen storage with a low-temperature hydrogen battery
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- pkphilip 1y agoGreat to see the advances happening in Hydrogen storage and transport! 90C temperatures for storage are easily achieved and such an improvement over 300-400c for storage. I do wonder about the efficiency though as that has not been clearly mentioned in the article though they are alluding to it being more efficient than using liquid electrolytes for Hydrogen transport.
- randomNumber7 1y ago> I do wonder about the efficiency This will highly depend on the insulation and the duration of storage. Likely not useful for your personal car that stands a week in sunlight but maybe for s. th. Like public transportation
- audunw 1y agoI don’t think anyone believes hydrogen to be relevant for ground transportation anymore. But for industry, grid energy storage (perhaps longer term, paired with existing gas power plants, to deal with dunkelflaute) and perhaps some roles in sea and air transportation… there are plenty of areas where efficient hydrogen storage would be useful.
- pfdietz 1y agoFor stationary storage at scale, underground storage as a compressed gas would be hard to beat, especially if salt formations are available for solution mined caverns.
- enigma101 1y agoDoes not seem to be a viable long term application. There is always residual buildup in electrolysis till the system eventually breaks down
- goda90 1y agoElectrolysis? This article seems to be about hydrogen storage, not hydrogen production. Unless I'm misunderstanding the chemistry I don't see how electrolysis is relevant to the battery.
- metalman 1y agohard to take a statement about overcoming bariers, when the actual publication is paywalled, the abstracts are posy only mixed with nosebleed level chemistry, and basics like watts/kg storage and expected life cycle are not included. Oh and exactly where the mythical hydrogen generation, transportation and storage infrastructure is going to come from. Meanwhile sodium batteries are quietly bieng introduced, at scale. edit: article apears to describe a way to provide local level "tankage" rather than bulk storage down vote protest Re-edit: just be clear, hydrogen is non viable as a primary energy source due to it's essential properties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen , gargantuan ifrastructure lag, and other more implimentable alternatives that are way ahead, and deserves it's place along side "self driving" as the winner of the always almost wouldn't it be nice prise for fantasy technological non developement.
- privatelypublic 1y agoI bailed when they left a word out of the title.
- pfdietz 1y agoHydrogen does have a potential use for very long term stationary storage (an application for which batteries are woefully unsuited), and as a necessary chemical feedstock (for ammonia among other things). But as an automobile fuel, or a drop in replacement for natural gas? No.
- tremon 1y agoyour edit doesn't help. > just be clear, hydrogen is non viable as a primary energy source due to it's essential properties [insert generic link here] That's not how you construct an argument. At the very least, you're expected to show how the Big Words you're using relate to each other.
- newyankee 1y agoI do hope that suddenly in 2030, something in the hydrogen invested countries like Japan happens where they suddenly flood the market with step changing tech that will complement exisiting LFP/ Sodium ion and other tech especially for longer duration storage (weekly to monthly may be not seasonal but still useful). It feels like they are working slowly and steadily on the tech and have been doing it since many decades although they never planned to scale it like China did with batteries or solar for numerous reasons beyond the tech folk's capacity
- jfengel 1y agoIt would be great but it seems very unlikely to me. Hydrogen is difficult to store; it's corrosive and leaks out of the tiniest holes. (Like, the ones between molecules.) It requires high pressure to get a reasonable quantity, exacerbating those problems, and very dangerous if pierced. It just doesn't seem reasonable. If we actually had a lot of hydrogen gas around, it would be far easier to distribute and use in the form of hydrocarbons, which would allow us to use existing technology rather than invent new ones. I'd love to be wrong about this, and clearly there are scientists in the domain who disagree. But it just doesn't seem reasonable, and it has a whiff of being used as a deliberate distraction to slow investment in renewables that can be deployed right this instant.
- scythe 1y agoHydrogen production by electrolysis is relatively efficient, with 80% efficiency regularly achieved by modern electrolyzers. It's the reverse reaction that causes problems; 60% is very good for a fuel cell. So you can avoid the issue if you can use hydrogen to do useful work directly. The simplest cases are iron reduction from ore and heating via absorption heat pumps. Iron reduction works pretty well, but absorption heat pumps have limited exergy efficiency (a measure of useful energy available in heat) when using a very high temperature source like a hydrogen flame. An alternative is to use the waste heat from a fuel cell to drive an absorption heat pump, effectively converting hydrogen to both heat and electricity, the latter possibly being returned to the grid or a battery. But this creates a complex system of energy distribution, which requires some fancy load balancing on the electrical side. District heating allows you to avoid having a fancy fuel cell in every residence, but it requires infrastructure.
- bilsbie 1y agoI’m partial to sticking them to carbon atoms for storage (methane). How would this compare?
- artemonster 1y agoLets go further and synthesize them to even longer and more complex carbohydrates so that they will be liquid at normal temperature and smell nice!
- troymc 1y agoEssential oils from plants (terpenes/terpenoids) are hydrogen-rich hydrocarbons and they smell nice. Menthol is an example, with a hydrogen mass fraction of about 12%. For comparison, water has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 11.2%. If you abandon the "smell nice" constraint, you can get an even higher hydrogen mass fraction. For example, n-pentane has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 16.8% and it's liquid at a pressure of 1 atmosphere and a temperature of 25 degrees Celsius, but it evaporates rapidly, so you need to keep it in a container. If you don't mind pressurizing the container a bit, you could put ammonia in there, and it has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 17.6%.
- artemonster 1y agoIt was a joke about gasoline
- ricardobeat 1y agoSmells nice?
- SoftTalker 1y agoSome people actually think it does. Especially before it had so much ethanol added. I don't think it smells particularly nice but it is definitely a memory trigger of being a small kid helping my dad get the lawn mower ready to cut the grass.
- huijzer 1y agoAnother day, another new battery innovation that probably will never see mass production.
- lofaszvanitt 1y agoSame rule applies to storage. Would be interesting to read something about which entities kneecap the industry.
- firesteelrain 1y agoQuote: “ One of the most pressing challenges facing the use of hydrogen is its storage, which typically requires extremely low temperatures (−252.8 °C) and high pressures (350 to 700 bar). ” I know I am just an amateur In the PicoBalloon hobbyist world, we are generating our own hydrogen. You can buy the equipment for cheap from China and generate it from water. It doesn’t require extreme temperatures to store. Are we generating dirty hydrogen? Why does this paper suggest storing at extreme temperatures and pressure?
- philipkglass 1y agoHydrogen gas has very low density at standard temperature and pressure. 1 kilogram of gaseous H2 occupies 11,100 liters at STP. This is great for ballooning, where the low density is the whole point, but it means that hydrogen stored for energy is excessively voluminous in the form of uncompressed gas.
- brnt 1y agoDid you not give your own answer? "Pico" balloons hold tiny amounts of the stuff. And mainly for flotation (ie non consumable), as opposed to a (consumable) fuel.
- ricardobeat 1y agoFor hydrogen to be useful as fuel, we need it to produced at scale, transported and stored, it is not feasible to generate it on demand (even if you could, you would still need a battery for electrolysis). The 300+ psi pressure is needed to achieve similar power density as gasoline/electric. At atmospheric pressure you need about 15 liters of hydrogen gas to match the energy in one small AA battery.
- dleary 1y agoYou're using hydrogen in a balloon. Where its very low density is a boon. Hydrogen gas also has very low energy density. To store enough of it to be useful, it has to be pressurized/liquified, which requires the expensive storage solutions.
- crote 1y agoStoring hydrogen in general isn't very difficult. The problem is in storing enough hydrogen that having it react with air in a fuel cell can power something meaningful. For example, the Hyundai Nexo has a range of 611 km (380 mi), which requires it to store 6.3 kg of hydrogen. At atmospheric temperature and pressure hydrogen has a density of 0.08988 g/L, so that would require a tank with a volume of 70 m3. For reference, a semi-trailer has a volume of about 100 m3.
- revanwjy 1y ago[flagged]
- ilaksh 1y agoDoes it need to maintain the 90C or the energy is lost?
- pfdietz 1y agoThere is now very little reason to use hydrogen for ground vehicles when batteries can serve.