11 ms·

As Android developer verification gets ready to go, a new reason to be worried

210 points by josephcsible 1y ago

fooqux 1y ago
It just keeps getting worse. I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. It is incredibly frustrating watching this play out without having an alternative to migrate to.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  It would be righteous for it to destroy all of Android, not just its ecosystem. The obvious alternative is Linux phones. Granted, the tech sets us back by maybe two decades, but at least we're almost at the stage where we can rapidfire develop our own apps or open source apps using LLM assistance.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    Then the Linux phones will come under regulatory pressure to reveal this information and shut down freedoms.
    - fooqux 1y ago
      Who would they pressure? And even if they were successful in pressuring them, people would just remove it or fork.
      - pessimizer 1y ago
        The chipmakers. In my dystopia, there are military permanently stationed at all of them, making sure that nothing gets out of there that can run unauthorized OSes or LLMs. Innovation Force.
    - lenerdenator 1y ago
      Linux is far, far harder to regulate. Android never had the FLOSS ethos of Linux or the GNU project at large.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    Linux phones need a lot of love in both the hardware and shell departments to be practical for replacing mainstream smartphones.
  - palata 1y ago
    > The obvious alternative is Linux phones. Kindly disagree. Linux phones are very far behind. The obvious alternative is an alternative OS based on AOSP. Like GrapheneOS.
    - OutOfHere 1y ago
      The survival of GrapheneOS is far from guaranteed for multiple reasons, but sure, it's nice while it lasts and stays updated with patches. I think Graphene might benefit from having additional hardware interoperability, and additional security layers that defend it even in the face of delayed patches from upstream.
      - palata 1y ago
        Sure, but the survival of any Mobile Linux doesn't have better odds. The way I see it, the more support GrapheneOS gets, the higher the likelihood it survives. The goal is to reach a point where Android manufacturers consider that they lose money if they don't reach the requirements of GrapheneOS, because enough people care about them.
    - EvanAnderson 1y ago
      I'd love to use GrapheneOS but I have to stand firm on not giving Google any money (at least directly). I really wish I could use GrapheneOS on non-Google hardware.
      - drnick1 1y ago
        Graphene is planning to make their own phone though, so that may work for you. I don't use Google software at all, not even their search engine or email, but I find that buying Google hardware is acceptable since the bootloader is unlocked.
        palata 1y ago
        > Graphene is planning to make their own phone though I don't think it will be their own phone, and I hope they don't go down that route. They are talking with an OEM to help them increase their security to reach the requirements of GrapheneOS, at which point GrapheneOS will be able to support those non-Pixel phones. > I don't use Google software at all, not even their search engine or email, but I find that buying Google hardware is acceptable since the bootloader is unlocked. Same here. I've been a user of /e/OS for 4.5 years. I have come to the conclusion that the only Android system worth its while in terms of security is GrapheneOS. If it wasn't for it, I would go with an iPhone. And I do avoid TooBigTech as much as I can (I even self-host some stuff for that). But the hardware situation is the way it is, and the Pixels are simply superior at the moment.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  It's extending beyond mobile too, which is terrifying. Anonymity is under attack in general
  - eddieroger 1y ago
    Anonymity isn't under attack, we've been giving it away since MySpace and Facebook. Why forcibly take what you're willingly given?
    - wiseowise 1y ago
      Because it’s one thing to publicly show what you want and another to be forced to show everything that you have because you’re not a terrorist, are you? Have you though if children?
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  > I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. This was always the plan. Co-opt FLOSS with services running on FLOSS platforms that are not, themselves, FLOSS. Make it insanely unattractive to run actual FLOSS services on the otherwise FLOSS platform. At that point, it might as well be what Apple does. There's a reason why rms was insistent upon GPL, but he never did have a real answer to that sort of corporate behavior.
- vivzkestrel 1y ago
  what happened to fuchsia OS or sails?
Workaccount2 1y ago
Just remember that the play store was ruled a monopoly and the app store wasn't because the "app store doesn't even allow competition, so how could it be anti-competitive?" It's no surprise that Google will start mirroring Apple more if closed ecosystems cannot be monopolies.
- seanw444 1y ago
  Our legal system is such a joke.
  - nine_k 1y ago
    You mean, it does not have competition?
    - sigmar 1y ago
      I assume the other commentor is saying "it's a joke" that the courts are holding google to stricter rules as to how they operate because the OS is more open (in that third parties can run other browsers and software). Google is responding by locking their platform down to be more like apple's walled-garden, so they avoid future scrutiny. Ironically, anti-competition laws (as written) are encouraging google to perform anti-competitive practices because the courts would rather google control the entire OS rather than makes default-software-deals with third party device manufacturers.
      - CWuestefeld 1y ago
        the courts would rather google control If the court is doing its job properly, it shouldn't be considering this at all. Their job is not to decide what outcome they find preferable. Their job is to assess compliance with the laws. If you don't like the outcome, then you ought to be complaining to your legislators to fix the broken antitrust laws, rather than saying that the courts are evil. Of course, that's how things are supposed to work. It doesn't always work out that way. But let's at least try to use the system as it was intended rather than trying to force it even further out of spec just to get your own preferred outcome.
fidotron 1y ago
A key question here is if installation of Google Apps can fail verification if the device is offline, or if they have some magic local public key chain of pre-authed all OK keys. DEVELOPER_VERIFICATION_FAILED_REASON_DEVELOPER_BLOCKED is very clearly the purpose of the whole thing. Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it?
- bri3d 1y ago
  > Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it? Your "presumably" is doing a _lot_ of work; these strings are from the PackageInstaller, and go along with all of the other reasons you can't install an APK. Historically, apps that were pulled from the Play Store and developer accounts revoked due to malware do _not_ affect apps on the end-user device, and there's no current sign of this changing with this specific project. Google have generally achieved this goal using Play Protect, the separate app/service which _can_ download revocation lists and signal end-users to delete malicious apps, and there's no indication this will change.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  Android has a bunch of special signing keys (vendor, Google, that kind of thing) that get special treatment. I assume the same will apply here. I don't have much of a problem with developers getting blocked, blocking malware shops is the entire point. Installations failing because of a network problem is different, though. The Android ecosystem can trivially leverage the existing app certificates + occasionally updated CRLs to verify app developers. Android needing to call to the net before installing an APK seems over the top.
  - throw-the-towel 1y ago
    > I don't have much of a problem with developers getting blocked... for building an alternative YouTube frontend. Or a torrenting app. Or due to sanctions / trade wars. (If you think these can't happen to you personally, imagine a Mega-Trump who's even Trumpier than Trump getting elected US president.) What's malware to Google isn't necessarily malware to the user.
robcohen 1y ago
Honestly, for people who value privacy and security: What exactly is the plan? It seems like we're going from a reasonably acceptable option (GrapheneOS), to nothing.
- seanw444 1y ago
  If ever there was a time for Linux phones to gain renewed development interest, it's now.
  - beanjuiceII 1y ago
    its a great idea but i think the work to make something practical is extremely high
  - uyzstvqs 1y ago
    I'll add to this that libadwaita is really good, and manages to scale applications between desktop and mobile extremely well. Far better than any other mobile-desktop convergence I've seen before. Flatpak also offers a very good method for distributing apps in an easy and largely decentralized way.
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    The problem extends far deeper than just FOSS for mobile and IoT. There isn't competitive OSHW. The entire pipeline for silicon hardware development (PCB dev is relatively easy) is virtually locked away behind gates that require identity and/or address verification, node-locked trial licenses or sometimes big license fees paid to one or more big 3 EDA vendors. And that's even before getting anywhere need talking to a fab.
    - rs186 1y ago
      This. If memory serves me right, in early days of Android, Google engineers were writing drivers on behalf of manufacturers because OEM drivers were too buggy. Think about the amount of work and the kind of talent this requires. If you are starting from scratch today as a no-name company, I doubt any hardware manufacturers even want to talk to you.
flerchin 1y ago
I just don't get it. It's not their device to decide what code can run on it. They can gatekeep at their store, because it's their store.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Clippy would never take away things you own. https://youtu.be/2_Dtmpe9qaQ https://youtu.be/2_Dtmpe9qaQ
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  > It's not their device to decide what code can run on it. They apparently feel very differently. We got rid of the license on the OS; but they found other ways to put a license on the phone.
- Bratmon 1y ago
  But it is their device. That's why the legalese at the beginning makes such a big deal of explaining that it's licensed not sold.
  - 63stack 1y ago
    The legalese at the beginning of ...?
gjsman-1000 1y ago
I recently put my finger on what has been changing lately, especially after the assassination: We used to say, that online speech, is not the same as in-person speech. Online, you can yell horrible things, imply that somebody should "do something" about another person, but police showing up at your door is a tyranny, even if those same things on a street corner would've had you on involuntary commitment. Online, a developer might build an app that pulls off phishing scams, but they have the complete right to be anonymous. Meanwhile, the person cutting your hair, preparing your food, or even selling you flowers needs registration, if only for taxes. In person was a "real" threat, while online was just "venting," "trolling." That's dying. Online is now the real world. With real world consequences.
- everdrive 1y ago
  >Online is now the real world. Without most of the benefits of the real world, mind you.
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    I don't know what you mean. I don't know in what world you could say half the things that were on BlueSky, post-assassination, without riot police being called and people getting arrested, assuming they were physically present and saying the same things.
    - pessimizer 1y ago
      The US? We have the first amendment here and you can actively and energetically endorse violence. You can't cross over into coordinating violence, which is the "eminent lawless action" part. But you can certainly suggest it, or demand it. Celebrating it is sometimes almost mandatory.
    - add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
      Can't understand how that relates to this other than as an awkward, contrived excuse for bad faith pearl clutching about checks notes Bluesky. Are you reading your own words? You're saying online is now offline because of consequences meanwhile the Bluesky posters you're complaining about are not actually being arrested by riot police.
jerojero 1y ago
I use Android over iphone precisely because I'm free to install whatever apps I want. With this planned change my reasons to ditch Android and go to Apple increase dramatically. Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one? Sucks for the people who can't afford an Apple device and honestly sucks for all of us who enjoyed installing all kinds of apps on our devices.
- lordofgibbons 1y ago
  Yeah, this is exactly my reasoning too. And with Google making it harder for OSes like GrapheneOS to run on Pixel devices, my next device will have to be an Apple one. There's nothing left in the Android ecosystem for me.
- rs186 1y ago
  Same. Combined with bad security practice from OEMs, preinstalled bloatware, app fragmentation (I love having Samsung "Phone" app and stock phone app at the same time) and customer service (try replacing your phone battery and compare the experience of ubreakifix and Apple store), I don't see a reason to go Android. (P.S. people who cannot afford the latest iPhone can always purchase a two year old used/"refurbished" phone. It's a solid choice and many people do that. The fact that you can now add Apple Care to 4 year old device makes this more viable.)
  - darknavi 1y ago
    Apple also has great long term support. They just shipped security updates for the iPhone 6S which came out 10 years ago.
  - homebrewer 1y ago
    Not "always", Apple doesn't provide official warranty in my country, and even replacing batteries carries significant risk. Forget about more involved types of servicing. There are lots of places like that.
    - microtonal 1y ago
suobset 1y ago
Google, your platform currently does not inspire any privacy. It has no ecosystem going for it (workarounds do not count, I want Apple levels everything-works-together-100%-out-of-the-box). Your Watch and other products have repeatedly been called lukewarm, and the Fitbit integration with Google integration was the last straw that pushed me off your watch platform. If you want me to buy an iOS clone with no competitive edges, I would rather stick with the real deal. At least Apple has been consistent with their views about what iOS is since day 1.
- ChocoStarQuest9 1y ago
  Google is on X
palata 1y ago
At this point, the only reason I have an Android phone is GrapheneOS. Fortunately it is not impacted by this. The day Google manages to make GrapheneOS unusable, I'm off to the iPhone.
- silverliver 1y ago
  This is my plan as well. If we loose the ability to run GrapheneOS, I'll get an iphone and treat it as a locked down home router, and use a linux phone with open source apps for my calls/messaging. I will also do everything in my power to halt support for Android in favor of web apps. No sense duplicating work for two separate platforms if one is just a crappy clone of another.
Kim_Bruning 1y ago
It's not like Android and iOS are the only options exactly. So I never spend much on phones, but I just got a Fairphone 4 running E/OS , which is .... like running android, except it blocks tracking by default, and you're in control. Some fairphones come with e/os pre-installed, but installing it isn't even all too fiddly, you can do it direct from chrome(ium). And you can take it apart with your fingers and a screwdriver! There's hope yet!
- reorder9695 1y ago
  They _are_ the only options if you want banking to work reliably, which is essential for me at least due to 3DS requiring mobile app verification for transactions. I have to run stock android for pretty much this reason only. Everything else I could manage with, but not being locked out of certain banks.
  - Kim_Bruning 1y ago
    Oh dear! That's like Microsoft all over again! I've been in IT long enough to recognize this pattern. Every "convenient" lock-in becomes an expensive problem later - something you're definitely experiencing now! My advice: don't get locked in in the first place yesterday. Or second best, start exploring ways out today. Push back on your bank - odds are they simply haven't had enough complaints yet. Demand alternate authentication methods. Fall back to web banking or even paper banking. Shop around - banks are IT companies like any other these days, and there are definitely banks with better terms. Fortunately I'm in the Netherlands where web banking still works fine, so that's what I'm doing. Where are you located?
  - Kim_Bruning 1y ago
    Huh, turns out a lot of banking apps actually work on e/os. TBQH I'm a bit skeptical of banking apps in general, mind, but if you're not here's a list: https://community.e.foundation/t/list-banking-apps-on-e-os/33091 https://community.e.foundation/t/list-banking-apps-on-e-os/3...
- saidinesh5 1y ago
  For a lot of us who have to use payment apps, banking apps, government apps, these two are pretty much the only options. :/
EvanAnderson 1y ago
This is immensely frustrating to me. I was an iPhone user from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, when the iTunes backup from my failed iPhone 4S wouldn't restore to an iPhone SE (it made the phone boot loop) I got frustrated and went Android. I decided to "sideload" all non-stock software on my Android phone. I never have setup a Google Play account. I kept all the APKs for the software I loaded over the years that I used that phone. I just got a new Android phone a couple of weeks ago. I was able to just load all the software I use day-to-day from APKs (except for a few that are, apparently, processor-specific). I imported my SMS, contacts, and call logs using a nice FOSS app[0]. It felt remarkably like moving to a new PC does. It was nice. I am really sad Google is ending this moving forward. Jackasses. [0] https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie
- mcny 1y ago
  I got a new Android phone recently as well. I am trying to see how far I can get without signing into a Google or Motorola (this is a Motorola phone) account. So far so good. I can't download any apps from the app store that were not already included when I activated the phone but I can use fdroid so I am good for the most part.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    I'm using a Motorola phone myself and I'm having great luck with it. Newer stuff is coming in XAPK format packages and I've had no luck side loading any of those apps. So far I've been able to do without so it hasn't been a problem, just an annoyance.
    - yogeshimac 1y ago
      You can use MiXplorer to install XAPK files. Just try to open the XAPK in the app and it should show an option to install.
      - EvanAnderson 1y ago
        I'll check it out. Thanks! Edit: I hadn't used MiXplorer before. I was able to install an XAPK with it, so that's nice.
stuaxo 1y ago
This is so rubbish. I used to be an Android dev, and occasionally dabble. I use Android as I can put things on it. If its going to be closed, I may as well get an iPhone, or stick with open and get a Linux phone next.
- xandrius 1y ago
  I recommend Linux phone, really rewarding not supporting these trash corporations. Look into UBports if you want to join the dev community (either for apps or system).
devsda 1y ago
I'm just surprised how the responses here(including the original announcement post) at HN of all places are mild and at times indifferent to the fact that we are about to give up control of our devices and make Google the arbitrator of what we can run on them. That ship may have sailed for ios but it hasn't for android yet. This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice. I'm all for alternatives like linux phones but it's not realistic in the timeframe. It will be a sad day if this comes to pass without least bit of resistance.
- GeekyBear 1y ago
  If you sell your new platform as "open" to gain market share and then break that promise of openness after you successfully drive competing platforms out of the market, that sounds a lot like fraudulent marketing to me.
  - ixwt 1y ago
    Sounds like standard modern business practices to me.
    - Telaneo 1y ago
      Both can be true at the same time.
    - star-glider 1y ago
      Yeah I mean it's literally what the term "open source rugpull" means. Every business will ultimately renege on their open source promises. It's literally against their fiduciary duty to shareholders not to, once they've run out of actual growth ideas. Even if current management is idealistic, eventually, they will be replaced with "real leaders" who know that they need to make money. But, ideally, it's not that big a deal, because the community (or even newer non-calcified businesses) can fork the last open source branch and continue development. Unfortunately, with something as complex as an OS, that's incredibly difficult. It does seem regrettably unlikely that, for the foreseeable future, there will be no practically usable open-source phone OSes.
skate 1y ago
What happens to hobby android app development when this comes into effect? You can't even test stuff you made on your own hardware without getting verified.
- xandrius 1y ago
  Same as iOS, either it dies or you pay for it.
riedel 1y ago
My daughter wants me to read the Ada & Zangemann book as a bed time lecture [1]. I don't know if she feels how relevant this topic has become. [1] https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html
- spit2wind 1y ago
  I was unaware of this book. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
wiseowise 1y ago
This is great… for web apps. I really hope this will be the final straw to break the camel’s back and people will see that native platforms bring nothing but lock in and misery (I’m an Android native developer, don’t bother telling me about “native experience”).
manithree 1y ago
As long as any old apk can be installed over ADB, f-droid just needs to release a desktop app, and I'm gtg. Yeah, it's a little inconvenient, and hopefully just a stopgap until Linux phones are viable, but still better than Apple.
- baobun 1y ago
  It means users without a PC won't have this possibility. You will not be able to do squat if you are mobile-only. Maybe not a major change for us here but a dealbreaker for the majority.
  - cokecan 1y ago
    Would it be viable to enable wireless ADB and use a browser/app on the same phone to connect to it, and install the APKs that way?
- akvadrako 1y ago
  You can do ADB over the network so any device can use it, even from the same phone.
franciscojs 1y ago
Wouldn't be possible to just install an alternative Android build that has this removed?
- JeremyNT 1y ago
  Sure, but then you'll be locked out of apps and sites that enforce device integrity. I guess the best option is two android phones, one for Google's locked down junk and another that is allowed to run your own code.
t_mahmood 1y ago
Yes, so much for portability, the portability ship now is in the hand of two corporates, that do not care about what a user wants. The convenience, it offers, depends on the profitability of these corporates. Well, I do not want to just in to one walled garden to another, so, I think, this is the end of portable devices for me. That is the stick, that Google and Apple both using to keep us in their hands, so, I'm going to do my best to say: No thank you, and F*ck off. I might not ever buy a flagship or high-end smartphone anymore, but get a smaller laptop, and keep an old or cheap Android handy, which will have very little personal data in it. I can easily tether the Laptop with my mobile and do most of the things that are needed. Yes, for bank applications, and some other applications, that requires app, I will keep the cheap Android handy. But, it not a personal device anymore, the thing that I loved about Android, it's just there, because it has to. And I am done with a mobile device till a true Linux based mobile become available.
gwenzek 1y ago
I really don't like this move. I always rooted for Android because of its openness. It was also a reason why I was proud to work at Google. The PlayStore is full of crapware, and I'm using a lot of apps from Fdroid, including basics like keyboard and text. If you're at Google try to push back on this please.
bitwize 1y ago
Once again. There is no future for "general purpose computing". The market won't sustain it. The future of computing is a signed, vetted path from boot firmware to application code. Everyone benefits from this, except devs. Platform vendors benefit because they can collect license fees and exert control over the platform. Control is not necessarily evil; it also allows the hardware vendor to manage their reputation. People tend to blame the vendor when malware, or just poorly written software, makes things go awry; look at the flak Microsoft caught from poorly written third-party drivers causing Windows crashes back in the day. Content and service providers benefit because the locked down platform provides reasonable assurance against compromise—hacked bank accounts, piracy, etc. which can result in losses. End users benefit because now their computer or smartphone is as convenient and risk-free as a game console. iPhone is still the #1 brand in the US, despite being almost completely closed. NOBODY in the end user market gives a shit about being able to run arbitrary software. They would rather have safety, and iPhone gives them that. Governments benefit because if app development requires a paper trail, app and smartphone vendors can be more easily strongarmed for law enforcement and surveillance purposes. Governments are requiring increased tracking by online services, including age verification laws in the US, UK, and elsewhere; "chat control" proposals in Europe, etc. Some governments (e.g., Brazil) are even implementing these requirements on end-user devices and operating systems. We are going to be living in a digital world that's more regulated, transparent to government, and accountable soon. My advice is: get used to it. The free-wheeling hacker days are over, and they're not coming back. No one is going to listen to a bunch of nerds whinging that their toys have been taken away; those nerds will be told that it's time to grow up.
stuaxo 1y ago
If functionality is taken away from a device, e.g. this, locking down bootloaders etc the consumer should have the right to a refund.
metalman 1y ago
ubuntu linux phone, as soon as I have a few bucks and a day off, as my daily driver is exclusivly side loaded and I will feel a bit better knowing how the next thing works

210 points by josephcsible 1y ago

It just keeps getting worse. I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. It is incredibly frustrating watching this play out without having an alternative to migrate to.

OutOfHere 1y ago
It would be righteous for it to destroy all of Android, not just its ecosystem. The obvious alternative is Linux phones. Granted, the tech sets us back by maybe two decades, but at least we're almost at the stage where we can rapidfire develop our own apps or open source apps using LLM assistance.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  Then the Linux phones will come under regulatory pressure to reveal this information and shut down freedoms.
  - fooqux 1y ago
    Who would they pressure? And even if they were successful in pressuring them, people would just remove it or fork.
    - pessimizer 1y ago
      The chipmakers. In my dystopia, there are military permanently stationed at all of them, making sure that nothing gets out of there that can run unauthorized OSes or LLMs. Innovation Force.
  - lenerdenator 1y ago
    Linux is far, far harder to regulate. Android never had the FLOSS ethos of Linux or the GNU project at large.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  Linux phones need a lot of love in both the hardware and shell departments to be practical for replacing mainstream smartphones.
- palata 1y ago
  > The obvious alternative is Linux phones. Kindly disagree. Linux phones are very far behind. The obvious alternative is an alternative OS based on AOSP. Like GrapheneOS.
  - OutOfHere 1y ago
    The survival of GrapheneOS is far from guaranteed for multiple reasons, but sure, it's nice while it lasts and stays updated with patches. I think Graphene might benefit from having additional hardware interoperability, and additional security layers that defend it even in the face of delayed patches from upstream.
    - palata 1y ago
      Sure, but the survival of any Mobile Linux doesn't have better odds. The way I see it, the more support GrapheneOS gets, the higher the likelihood it survives. The goal is to reach a point where Android manufacturers consider that they lose money if they don't reach the requirements of GrapheneOS, because enough people care about them.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    I'd love to use GrapheneOS but I have to stand firm on not giving Google any money (at least directly). I really wish I could use GrapheneOS on non-Google hardware.
    - drnick1 1y ago
      Graphene is planning to make their own phone though, so that may work for you. I don't use Google software at all, not even their search engine or email, but I find that buying Google hardware is acceptable since the bootloader is unlocked.
      - palata 1y ago
        > Graphene is planning to make their own phone though I don't think it will be their own phone, and I hope they don't go down that route. They are talking with an OEM to help them increase their security to reach the requirements of GrapheneOS, at which point GrapheneOS will be able to support those non-Pixel phones. > I don't use Google software at all, not even their search engine or email, but I find that buying Google hardware is acceptable since the bootloader is unlocked. Same here. I've been a user of /e/OS for 4.5 years. I have come to the conclusion that the only Android system worth its while in terms of security is GrapheneOS. If it wasn't for it, I would go with an iPhone. And I do avoid TooBigTech as much as I can (I even self-host some stuff for that). But the hardware situation is the way it is, and the Pixels are simply superior at the moment.
thewebguyd 1y ago
It's extending beyond mobile too, which is terrifying. Anonymity is under attack in general
- eddieroger 1y ago
  Anonymity isn't under attack, we've been giving it away since MySpace and Facebook. Why forcibly take what you're willingly given?
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    Because it’s one thing to publicly show what you want and another to be forced to show everything that you have because you’re not a terrorist, are you? Have you though if children?
lenerdenator 1y ago
> I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. This was always the plan. Co-opt FLOSS with services running on FLOSS platforms that are not, themselves, FLOSS. Make it insanely unattractive to run actual FLOSS services on the otherwise FLOSS platform. At that point, it might as well be what Apple does. There's a reason why rms was insistent upon GPL, but he never did have a real answer to that sort of corporate behavior.
vivzkestrel 1y ago
what happened to fuchsia OS or sails?

Workaccount2 1y ago

Just remember that the play store was ruled a monopoly and the app store wasn't because the "app store doesn't even allow competition, so how could it be anti-competitive?" It's no surprise that Google will start mirroring Apple more if closed ecosystems cannot be monopolies.

seanw444 1y ago
Our legal system is such a joke.
- nine_k 1y ago
  You mean, it does not have competition?
  - sigmar 1y ago
    I assume the other commentor is saying "it's a joke" that the courts are holding google to stricter rules as to how they operate because the OS is more open (in that third parties can run other browsers and software). Google is responding by locking their platform down to be more like apple's walled-garden, so they avoid future scrutiny. Ironically, anti-competition laws (as written) are encouraging google to perform anti-competitive practices because the courts would rather google control the entire OS rather than makes default-software-deals with third party device manufacturers.
    - CWuestefeld 1y ago
      the courts would rather google control If the court is doing its job properly, it shouldn't be considering this at all. Their job is not to decide what outcome they find preferable. Their job is to assess compliance with the laws. If you don't like the outcome, then you ought to be complaining to your legislators to fix the broken antitrust laws, rather than saying that the courts are evil. Of course, that's how things are supposed to work. It doesn't always work out that way. But let's at least try to use the system as it was intended rather than trying to force it even further out of spec just to get your own preferred outcome.

fidotron 1y ago

A key question here is if installation of Google Apps can fail verification if the device is offline, or if they have some magic local public key chain of pre-authed all OK keys. DEVELOPER_VERIFICATION_FAILED_REASON_DEVELOPER_BLOCKED is very clearly the purpose of the whole thing. Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it?

bri3d 1y ago
> Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it? Your "presumably" is doing a _lot_ of work; these strings are from the PackageInstaller, and go along with all of the other reasons you can't install an APK. Historically, apps that were pulled from the Play Store and developer accounts revoked due to malware do _not_ affect apps on the end-user device, and there's no current sign of this changing with this specific project. Google have generally achieved this goal using Play Protect, the separate app/service which _can_ download revocation lists and signal end-users to delete malicious apps, and there's no indication this will change.
jeroenhd 1y ago
Android has a bunch of special signing keys (vendor, Google, that kind of thing) that get special treatment. I assume the same will apply here. I don't have much of a problem with developers getting blocked, blocking malware shops is the entire point. Installations failing because of a network problem is different, though. The Android ecosystem can trivially leverage the existing app certificates + occasionally updated CRLs to verify app developers. Android needing to call to the net before installing an APK seems over the top.
- throw-the-towel 1y ago
  > I don't have much of a problem with developers getting blocked... for building an alternative YouTube frontend. Or a torrenting app. Or due to sanctions / trade wars. (If you think these can't happen to you personally, imagine a Mega-Trump who's even Trumpier than Trump getting elected US president.) What's malware to Google isn't necessarily malware to the user.

robcohen 1y ago

Honestly, for people who value privacy and security: What exactly is the plan? It seems like we're going from a reasonably acceptable option (GrapheneOS), to nothing.

seanw444 1y ago
If ever there was a time for Linux phones to gain renewed development interest, it's now.
- beanjuiceII 1y ago
  its a great idea but i think the work to make something practical is extremely high
- uyzstvqs 1y ago
  I'll add to this that libadwaita is really good, and manages to scale applications between desktop and mobile extremely well. Far better than any other mobile-desktop convergence I've seen before. Flatpak also offers a very good method for distributing apps in an easy and largely decentralized way.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  The problem extends far deeper than just FOSS for mobile and IoT. There isn't competitive OSHW. The entire pipeline for silicon hardware development (PCB dev is relatively easy) is virtually locked away behind gates that require identity and/or address verification, node-locked trial licenses or sometimes big license fees paid to one or more big 3 EDA vendors. And that's even before getting anywhere need talking to a fab.
  - rs186 1y ago
    This. If memory serves me right, in early days of Android, Google engineers were writing drivers on behalf of manufacturers because OEM drivers were too buggy. Think about the amount of work and the kind of talent this requires. If you are starting from scratch today as a no-name company, I doubt any hardware manufacturers even want to talk to you.

flerchin 1y ago

I just don't get it. It's not their device to decide what code can run on it. They can gatekeep at their store, because it's their store.

burnt-resistor 1y ago
Clippy would never take away things you own. https://youtu.be/2_Dtmpe9qaQ https://youtu.be/2_Dtmpe9qaQ
lenerdenator 1y ago
> It's not their device to decide what code can run on it. They apparently feel very differently. We got rid of the license on the OS; but they found other ways to put a license on the phone.
Bratmon 1y ago
But it is their device. That's why the legalese at the beginning makes such a big deal of explaining that it's licensed not sold.
- 63stack 1y ago
  The legalese at the beginning of ...?

gjsman-1000 1y ago

I recently put my finger on what has been changing lately, especially after the assassination: We used to say, that online speech, is not the same as in-person speech. Online, you can yell horrible things, imply that somebody should "do something" about another person, but police showing up at your door is a tyranny, even if those same things on a street corner would've had you on involuntary commitment. Online, a developer might build an app that pulls off phishing scams, but they have the complete right to be anonymous. Meanwhile, the person cutting your hair, preparing your food, or even selling you flowers needs registration, if only for taxes. In person was a "real" threat, while online was just "venting," "trolling." That's dying. Online is now the real world. With real world consequences.

everdrive 1y ago
>Online is now the real world. Without most of the benefits of the real world, mind you.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  I don't know what you mean. I don't know in what world you could say half the things that were on BlueSky, post-assassination, without riot police being called and people getting arrested, assuming they were physically present and saying the same things.
  - pessimizer 1y ago
    The US? We have the first amendment here and you can actively and energetically endorse violence. You can't cross over into coordinating violence, which is the "eminent lawless action" part. But you can certainly suggest it, or demand it. Celebrating it is sometimes almost mandatory.
  - add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
    Can't understand how that relates to this other than as an awkward, contrived excuse for bad faith pearl clutching about checks notes Bluesky. Are you reading your own words? You're saying online is now offline because of consequences meanwhile the Bluesky posters you're complaining about are not actually being arrested by riot police.

jerojero 1y ago

I use Android over iphone precisely because I'm free to install whatever apps I want. With this planned change my reasons to ditch Android and go to Apple increase dramatically. Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one? Sucks for the people who can't afford an Apple device and honestly sucks for all of us who enjoyed installing all kinds of apps on our devices.

lordofgibbons 1y ago
Yeah, this is exactly my reasoning too. And with Google making it harder for OSes like GrapheneOS to run on Pixel devices, my next device will have to be an Apple one. There's nothing left in the Android ecosystem for me.
rs186 1y ago
Same. Combined with bad security practice from OEMs, preinstalled bloatware, app fragmentation (I love having Samsung "Phone" app and stock phone app at the same time) and customer service (try replacing your phone battery and compare the experience of ubreakifix and Apple store), I don't see a reason to go Android. (P.S. people who cannot afford the latest iPhone can always purchase a two year old used/"refurbished" phone. It's a solid choice and many people do that. The fact that you can now add Apple Care to 4 year old device makes this more viable.)
- darknavi 1y ago
  Apple also has great long term support. They just shipped security updates for the iPhone 6S which came out 10 years ago.
- homebrewer 1y ago
  Not "always", Apple doesn't provide official warranty in my country, and even replacing batteries carries significant risk. Forget about more involved types of servicing. There are lots of places like that.
  - microtonal 1y ago

suobset 1y ago

Google, your platform currently does not inspire any privacy. It has no ecosystem going for it (workarounds do not count, I want Apple levels everything-works-together-100%-out-of-the-box). Your Watch and other products have repeatedly been called lukewarm, and the Fitbit integration with Google integration was the last straw that pushed me off your watch platform. If you want me to buy an iOS clone with no competitive edges, I would rather stick with the real deal. At least Apple has been consistent with their views about what iOS is since day 1.

ChocoStarQuest9 1y ago
Google is on X

palata 1y ago

At this point, the only reason I have an Android phone is GrapheneOS. Fortunately it is not impacted by this. The day Google manages to make GrapheneOS unusable, I'm off to the iPhone.

silverliver 1y ago
This is my plan as well. If we loose the ability to run GrapheneOS, I'll get an iphone and treat it as a locked down home router, and use a linux phone with open source apps for my calls/messaging. I will also do everything in my power to halt support for Android in favor of web apps. No sense duplicating work for two separate platforms if one is just a crappy clone of another.

Kim_Bruning 1y ago

It's not like Android and iOS are the only options exactly. So I never spend much on phones, but I just got a Fairphone 4 running E/OS , which is .... like running android, except it blocks tracking by default, and you're in control. Some fairphones come with e/os pre-installed, but installing it isn't even all too fiddly, you can do it direct from chrome(ium). And you can take it apart with your fingers and a screwdriver! There's hope yet!

reorder9695 1y ago
They _are_ the only options if you want banking to work reliably, which is essential for me at least due to 3DS requiring mobile app verification for transactions. I have to run stock android for pretty much this reason only. Everything else I could manage with, but not being locked out of certain banks.
- Kim_Bruning 1y ago
  Oh dear! That's like Microsoft all over again! I've been in IT long enough to recognize this pattern. Every "convenient" lock-in becomes an expensive problem later - something you're definitely experiencing now! My advice: don't get locked in in the first place yesterday. Or second best, start exploring ways out today. Push back on your bank - odds are they simply haven't had enough complaints yet. Demand alternate authentication methods. Fall back to web banking or even paper banking. Shop around - banks are IT companies like any other these days, and there are definitely banks with better terms. Fortunately I'm in the Netherlands where web banking still works fine, so that's what I'm doing. Where are you located?
- Kim_Bruning 1y ago
  Huh, turns out a lot of banking apps actually work on e/os. TBQH I'm a bit skeptical of banking apps in general, mind, but if you're not here's a list: https://community.e.foundation/t/list-banking-apps-on-e-os/33091 https://community.e.foundation/t/list-banking-apps-on-e-os/3...
saidinesh5 1y ago
For a lot of us who have to use payment apps, banking apps, government apps, these two are pretty much the only options. :/

EvanAnderson 1y ago

This is immensely frustrating to me. I was an iPhone user from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, when the iTunes backup from my failed iPhone 4S wouldn't restore to an iPhone SE (it made the phone boot loop) I got frustrated and went Android. I decided to "sideload" all non-stock software on my Android phone. I never have setup a Google Play account. I kept all the APKs for the software I loaded over the years that I used that phone. I just got a new Android phone a couple of weeks ago. I was able to just load all the software I use day-to-day from APKs (except for a few that are, apparently, processor-specific). I imported my SMS, contacts, and call logs using a nice FOSS app[0]. It felt remarkably like moving to a new PC does. It was nice. I am really sad Google is ending this moving forward. Jackasses. [0] https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie

mcny 1y ago
I got a new Android phone recently as well. I am trying to see how far I can get without signing into a Google or Motorola (this is a Motorola phone) account. So far so good. I can't download any apps from the app store that were not already included when I activated the phone but I can use fdroid so I am good for the most part.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  I'm using a Motorola phone myself and I'm having great luck with it. Newer stuff is coming in XAPK format packages and I've had no luck side loading any of those apps. So far I've been able to do without so it hasn't been a problem, just an annoyance.
  - yogeshimac 1y ago
    You can use MiXplorer to install XAPK files. Just try to open the XAPK in the app and it should show an option to install.
    - EvanAnderson 1y ago
      I'll check it out. Thanks! Edit: I hadn't used MiXplorer before. I was able to install an XAPK with it, so that's nice.

stuaxo 1y ago

This is so rubbish. I used to be an Android dev, and occasionally dabble. I use Android as I can put things on it. If its going to be closed, I may as well get an iPhone, or stick with open and get a Linux phone next.

xandrius 1y ago
I recommend Linux phone, really rewarding not supporting these trash corporations. Look into UBports if you want to join the dev community (either for apps or system).

devsda 1y ago

I'm just surprised how the responses here(including the original announcement post) at HN of all places are mild and at times indifferent to the fact that we are about to give up control of our devices and make Google the arbitrator of what we can run on them. That ship may have sailed for ios but it hasn't for android yet. This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice. I'm all for alternatives like linux phones but it's not realistic in the timeframe. It will be a sad day if this comes to pass without least bit of resistance.

GeekyBear 1y ago
If you sell your new platform as "open" to gain market share and then break that promise of openness after you successfully drive competing platforms out of the market, that sounds a lot like fraudulent marketing to me.
- ixwt 1y ago
  Sounds like standard modern business practices to me.
  - Telaneo 1y ago
    Both can be true at the same time.
  - star-glider 1y ago
    Yeah I mean it's literally what the term "open source rugpull" means. Every business will ultimately renege on their open source promises. It's literally against their fiduciary duty to shareholders not to, once they've run out of actual growth ideas. Even if current management is idealistic, eventually, they will be replaced with "real leaders" who know that they need to make money. But, ideally, it's not that big a deal, because the community (or even newer non-calcified businesses) can fork the last open source branch and continue development. Unfortunately, with something as complex as an OS, that's incredibly difficult. It does seem regrettably unlikely that, for the foreseeable future, there will be no practically usable open-source phone OSes.

skate 1y ago

What happens to hobby android app development when this comes into effect? You can't even test stuff you made on your own hardware without getting verified.

xandrius 1y ago
Same as iOS, either it dies or you pay for it.

riedel 1y ago

My daughter wants me to read the Ada & Zangemann book as a bed time lecture [1]. I don't know if she feels how relevant this topic has become. [1] https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html

spit2wind 1y ago
I was unaware of this book. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

wiseowise 1y ago

This is great… for web apps. I really hope this will be the final straw to break the camel’s back and people will see that native platforms bring nothing but lock in and misery (I’m an Android native developer, don’t bother telling me about “native experience”).

manithree 1y ago

As long as any old apk can be installed over ADB, f-droid just needs to release a desktop app, and I'm gtg. Yeah, it's a little inconvenient, and hopefully just a stopgap until Linux phones are viable, but still better than Apple.

baobun 1y ago
It means users without a PC won't have this possibility. You will not be able to do squat if you are mobile-only. Maybe not a major change for us here but a dealbreaker for the majority.
- cokecan 1y ago
  Would it be viable to enable wireless ADB and use a browser/app on the same phone to connect to it, and install the APKs that way?
akvadrako 1y ago
You can do ADB over the network so any device can use it, even from the same phone.

franciscojs 1y ago

Wouldn't be possible to just install an alternative Android build that has this removed?

JeremyNT 1y ago
Sure, but then you'll be locked out of apps and sites that enforce device integrity. I guess the best option is two android phones, one for Google's locked down junk and another that is allowed to run your own code.

t_mahmood 1y ago

Yes, so much for portability, the portability ship now is in the hand of two corporates, that do not care about what a user wants. The convenience, it offers, depends on the profitability of these corporates. Well, I do not want to just in to one walled garden to another, so, I think, this is the end of portable devices for me. That is the stick, that Google and Apple both using to keep us in their hands, so, I'm going to do my best to say: No thank you, and F*ck off. I might not ever buy a flagship or high-end smartphone anymore, but get a smaller laptop, and keep an old or cheap Android handy, which will have very little personal data in it. I can easily tether the Laptop with my mobile and do most of the things that are needed. Yes, for bank applications, and some other applications, that requires app, I will keep the cheap Android handy. But, it not a personal device anymore, the thing that I loved about Android, it's just there, because it has to. And I am done with a mobile device till a true Linux based mobile become available.

gwenzek 1y ago

I really don't like this move. I always rooted for Android because of its openness. It was also a reason why I was proud to work at Google. The PlayStore is full of crapware, and I'm using a lot of apps from Fdroid, including basics like keyboard and text. If you're at Google try to push back on this please.

bitwize 1y ago

Once again. There is no future for "general purpose computing". The market won't sustain it. The future of computing is a signed, vetted path from boot firmware to application code. Everyone benefits from this, except devs. Platform vendors benefit because they can collect license fees and exert control over the platform. Control is not necessarily evil; it also allows the hardware vendor to manage their reputation. People tend to blame the vendor when malware, or just poorly written software, makes things go awry; look at the flak Microsoft caught from poorly written third-party drivers causing Windows crashes back in the day. Content and service providers benefit because the locked down platform provides reasonable assurance against compromise—hacked bank accounts, piracy, etc. which can result in losses. End users benefit because now their computer or smartphone is as convenient and risk-free as a game console. iPhone is still the #1 brand in the US, despite being almost completely closed. NOBODY in the end user market gives a shit about being able to run arbitrary software. They would rather have safety, and iPhone gives them that. Governments benefit because if app development requires a paper trail, app and smartphone vendors can be more easily strongarmed for law enforcement and surveillance purposes. Governments are requiring increased tracking by online services, including age verification laws in the US, UK, and elsewhere; "chat control" proposals in Europe, etc. Some governments (e.g., Brazil) are even implementing these requirements on end-user devices and operating systems. We are going to be living in a digital world that's more regulated, transparent to government, and accountable soon. My advice is: get used to it. The free-wheeling hacker days are over, and they're not coming back. No one is going to listen to a bunch of nerds whinging that their toys have been taken away; those nerds will be told that it's time to grow up.

stuaxo 1y ago

If functionality is taken away from a device, e.g. this, locking down bootloaders etc the consumer should have the right to a refund.

metalman 1y ago

ubuntu linux phone, as soon as I have a few bucks and a day off, as my daily driver is exclusivly side loaded and I will feel a bit better knowing how the next thing works