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This is what puzzles me - ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's mor

by caycep 1y ago

This is what puzzles me - ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists, or really at heart a right vs left wing divide. There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against what Netanyahu and his political allies are doing.

throwaway3060 1y ago
[flagged]
throw310822 1y ago
Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advanced. You can be for the existence of a peaceful Israel that has entirely retreated within recognised borders and made amends for its past genocidal behaviour- but it's not what the current Israel is or, sadly, can ever be. > There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against... No. Not at all.
- klipt 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - throw310822 1y ago
    > Shouldn't similar preconditions of making amends apply to whether or not we accept the existence of those Arab states? And what if they should? Do you think it make Israel's genocide look better now? Stop trying to change the subject or shift the blame, it's a trick and it's pathetic.
    - ukblewis 1y ago
      It is called a rhetorical device. It is considering the ends of your argument. If you are British, French, German, American, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. and you support the argument that displacement or control of a people is bad, I agree, but consider what you would want to do and apply the rule fairly. Criticising one country for “taking” land when it was given that land by the same UN you use to claim that it is a genocidal country today… well that really is rich
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        Was it really the "same" UN? In 1947, most of the world was still colonized, and had no UN representation. France, Britain and the US might not have had much of a problem with telling some people in the Third World to give up their homeland, but sentiment in colonized countries would have been very different. Also recall that it was only a UN recommendation, not a binding resolution.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        Yes of course it's a rhetorical device, and it's meant to subtly change the subject to prevent engaging with it. This conversation went like this: >>>> ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists To which I replied that Israel is constitutionally born out of a pre-planned colonisation and ethnic cleansing and it's wrong to think that its supremacist ideology only belongs to a part of its political spectrum- it could change but it's unfortunately unrealistic. >>> Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advance. To which the GP replied with something that tries to change the subject on Arab states, at the same time introducing a historical falsehood: >> The Arab states haven't made amends for ethnically cleansing huge numbers of Jews Now, 1) the Arab states are not born out of a planned ethnic cleansing of anyone (at least not in the recent past) 2) Many, perhaps most of the Jews that immigrated to Israel did so voluntarily (made Aliyah) 3) By the way, Israel itself even engaged in false flag terrorism to push Jews to emigrate from Arab countries to Israel. And most importantly, the argument has no bearing with the original subject, which is whether its a specific political side that is determining Israel's course now or the country is constitutionally like that. Arab countries have nothing to do with the subject, they belong to a different conversation. Hope it helps.
- cnlevy 1y ago
  > Israel was literally born out of political scheming Its more of a popular jewish movement that over 100 years changed the ethnic composition of the Palestine region from 1-2% in the 1840s up to 30% in the 1940s. Political scheming is secondary and was born well after the 1840s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palesti...
  - throw310822 1y ago
    I was referring to the well documented deals and shenanigans that were instrumental first to get the promise of support for an Israeli homeland, and then in the UN to get the partition plan approved. Zionism itself is a product of 19th century nationalisms and of course of a (widespread at the time) colonial mindset.
    - cnlevy 1y ago
      Do you still think that today its a colonial project ?
      - slt2021 1y ago
        [dead]
      - pyrale 1y ago
        Does Israel still encourage colonies in the west bank?
        cnlevy 1y ago
        Have Israel and Palestine determined borders ? A ceasefire line is not a border after the ceasefire is broken and the front line moves
        throw310822 1y ago
        Do you really expect you can defend Israel with this kind of lawyering and be taken seriously? "Well akshually a ceasefire line...". For god's sake. Let's not even get into who has violated the supposed ceasefire first, or on the legality of settling your population outside of its line, violated or not (spoiler: illegal in any case). Settlements have been declared illegal many times during the decades, most recently this year by the ICJ, and Israel has known this perfectly well since the start.
- themaninthedark 1y ago
  And the Arab opposition movement that later became the Palestinian movement has ties to literal Nazis... German and Bosnian WWII veterans, including a handful of former intelligence, Wehrmacht, and Waffen SS officers, were among the volunteers fighting for the Palestinian cause. Veterans of WWII Axis militaries were represented in the ranks of the ALA forces commanded by Fawzi al-Qawuqji (who had been awarded an officer's rank in the Wehrmacht during WWII) and in the Mufti's forces, commanded by Abd al-Qadir (who had fought with the Germans against the British in Iraq) and Salama (who trained in Germany as a commando during WWII and took part in a failed parachute mission into Palestine). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Arabian_Legion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Arabian_Legion Husseini is still regarded by many as 'the George Washington' of the Palestinian people, and if the Palestinians were to get a state of their own, he would be honored in the way our founding father is. In February 1943 the first of three divisions was formed of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims, who wore fezes decorated with SS runes and were led in their prayers by regimental imams notionally under the supervision of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.(Mohammed Amin al-Husseini from 1921–1937) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini
somenameforme 1y ago
It's not a party - it's an ideology: zionism [1], for which there is widespread left and right support. It is almost like a 20th century manifest destiny [2], with largely the same inevitable outcome. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
- adastra22 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Like with Manifest Destiny the problem comes when the area you want to decide to call your own already has people living there. I'd also add that there is no sort of human right to having your own homogeneous country. Most countries in the world have large sects of the population that would like to form their own autonomous states, many with populations substantially larger than that which initially carved out Israel for themselves. Unfortunately we live on a planet in which most of all land that's remotely habitable has been claimed by somebody.
    - adastra22 1y ago
      Israel isn't a homogenous country. It is majority jewish, but there are large minorities of Arabs, Druze, levant Christians, etc. These minorities--just under 30% of the population--hold full citizenship and have the same civil rights as any other Israeli. Zionism is a desire to have a majority-jewish state that is strong enough to protect jews from future pogroms. It is not a quest for a homogenous state.
      - darick 1y ago
        Yes, and surely these minorities are not treated like second class citizens? What's that? "A 2018 report by the Israeli State Comptroller on the protection of non-Jewish civilians found that 46% of Arab citizens in Israel lack access to adequate shelters, compared to 26% of the general population" In the context of bomb shelters.
nemothekid 1y ago
[flagged]
- ukblewis 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nemothekid 1y ago
    >Zionists do not support genocide. I never said this in my post. This is a reflexive defense on your part as I never specifically called out Zionists, in general, supported genocide. I said, the vast majority of the Knesset, supports genocide. I will say though, zionists in general are wishfully ignorant of this fact. >This is defamatory BS without any evidence at best Which parts are defamatory? Are you seriously going to argue that the Religious Zionist Party doesn't support genocide? Cmon man, Bezalel Smotrich is wanted by the ICC.[1] [1]https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/11/1157286 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/11/1157286
    - dlubarov 1y ago
      The ICC charges do not include genocide, so that doesn't support your claim. Khan sought a somewhat related extermination charge, which was rejected by the pre-trial chamber.
hyperman1 1y ago
I find this a strange take, and I hear it a lot from inhabitants of both the USA and Israel about their leadership. For better or worse, Netanyahu represents the Israeli governement, which represents Israel. Similar with Trump and the USA, or Putin and Russia. Sorry for the people who don't agree with them, but that's an internal power struggle, and as an outsider it is normal to abstract that away. For all of us: Your country is doing what it does. As a Belgian, I spit on my idiotic, nasty governements. Insert tiny violin, whatever Belgium does on the international forum, I'll still be tarred with it. Similarly, we talk about Germany's role in world war 2, even if only about 10% of them were associated with the NSDAP. Every power struggle is always represented overly simplistic. Sorry for both the jews and Israëli's who don't agree with it, you're probably good people. This time I am lucky to sit at a very comfortable sideline, criticising your country. But the point stands: Israel is correctly described as officially committing a genocide, and hence it can't be described as the good side.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - VerminOctopus1 1y ago
    The evidence of Israel’s genocide is plain to see. Israel is directly responsible for the systematic murder of countless civilians, a disgusting portion of which are children. What you are doing with this comment is attempting to shift the blame and responsibility in a transparent and gross manner. The journalists are not the problem, the people dropping the bombs every day are.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    You are denying the most well documented genocide in human history. Bad look my dude.

by caycep 1y ago

throwaway3060 1y ago

[flagged]

throw310822 1y ago

Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advanced. You can be for the existence of a peaceful Israel that has entirely retreated within recognised borders and made amends for its past genocidal behaviour- but it's not what the current Israel is or, sadly, can ever be. > There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against... No. Not at all.

klipt 1y ago
[flagged]
- throw310822 1y ago
  > Shouldn't similar preconditions of making amends apply to whether or not we accept the existence of those Arab states? And what if they should? Do you think it make Israel's genocide look better now? Stop trying to change the subject or shift the blame, it's a trick and it's pathetic.
  - ukblewis 1y ago
    It is called a rhetorical device. It is considering the ends of your argument. If you are British, French, German, American, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. and you support the argument that displacement or control of a people is bad, I agree, but consider what you would want to do and apply the rule fairly. Criticising one country for “taking” land when it was given that land by the same UN you use to claim that it is a genocidal country today… well that really is rich
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      Was it really the "same" UN? In 1947, most of the world was still colonized, and had no UN representation. France, Britain and the US might not have had much of a problem with telling some people in the Third World to give up their homeland, but sentiment in colonized countries would have been very different. Also recall that it was only a UN recommendation, not a binding resolution.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      Yes of course it's a rhetorical device, and it's meant to subtly change the subject to prevent engaging with it. This conversation went like this: >>>> ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists To which I replied that Israel is constitutionally born out of a pre-planned colonisation and ethnic cleansing and it's wrong to think that its supremacist ideology only belongs to a part of its political spectrum- it could change but it's unfortunately unrealistic. >>> Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advance. To which the GP replied with something that tries to change the subject on Arab states, at the same time introducing a historical falsehood: >> The Arab states haven't made amends for ethnically cleansing huge numbers of Jews Now, 1) the Arab states are not born out of a planned ethnic cleansing of anyone (at least not in the recent past) 2) Many, perhaps most of the Jews that immigrated to Israel did so voluntarily (made Aliyah) 3) By the way, Israel itself even engaged in false flag terrorism to push Jews to emigrate from Arab countries to Israel. And most importantly, the argument has no bearing with the original subject, which is whether its a specific political side that is determining Israel's course now or the country is constitutionally like that. Arab countries have nothing to do with the subject, they belong to a different conversation. Hope it helps.
cnlevy 1y ago
> Israel was literally born out of political scheming Its more of a popular jewish movement that over 100 years changed the ethnic composition of the Palestine region from 1-2% in the 1840s up to 30% in the 1940s. Political scheming is secondary and was born well after the 1840s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palesti...
- throw310822 1y ago
  I was referring to the well documented deals and shenanigans that were instrumental first to get the promise of support for an Israeli homeland, and then in the UN to get the partition plan approved. Zionism itself is a product of 19th century nationalisms and of course of a (widespread at the time) colonial mindset.
  - cnlevy 1y ago
    Do you still think that today its a colonial project ?
    - slt2021 1y ago
      [dead]
    - pyrale 1y ago
      Does Israel still encourage colonies in the west bank?
      - cnlevy 1y ago
        Have Israel and Palestine determined borders ? A ceasefire line is not a border after the ceasefire is broken and the front line moves
        throw310822 1y ago
        Do you really expect you can defend Israel with this kind of lawyering and be taken seriously? "Well akshually a ceasefire line...". For god's sake. Let's not even get into who has violated the supposed ceasefire first, or on the legality of settling your population outside of its line, violated or not (spoiler: illegal in any case). Settlements have been declared illegal many times during the decades, most recently this year by the ICJ, and Israel has known this perfectly well since the start.
themaninthedark 1y ago
And the Arab opposition movement that later became the Palestinian movement has ties to literal Nazis... German and Bosnian WWII veterans, including a handful of former intelligence, Wehrmacht, and Waffen SS officers, were among the volunteers fighting for the Palestinian cause. Veterans of WWII Axis militaries were represented in the ranks of the ALA forces commanded by Fawzi al-Qawuqji (who had been awarded an officer's rank in the Wehrmacht during WWII) and in the Mufti's forces, commanded by Abd al-Qadir (who had fought with the Germans against the British in Iraq) and Salama (who trained in Germany as a commando during WWII and took part in a failed parachute mission into Palestine). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Arabian_Legion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Arabian_Legion Husseini is still regarded by many as 'the George Washington' of the Palestinian people, and if the Palestinians were to get a state of their own, he would be honored in the way our founding father is. In February 1943 the first of three divisions was formed of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims, who wore fezes decorated with SS runes and were led in their prayers by regimental imams notionally under the supervision of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.(Mohammed Amin al-Husseini from 1921–1937) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

somenameforme 1y ago

It's not a party - it's an ideology: zionism [1], for which there is widespread left and right support. It is almost like a 20th century manifest destiny [2], with largely the same inevitable outcome. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny

adastra22 1y ago
[flagged]
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Like with Manifest Destiny the problem comes when the area you want to decide to call your own already has people living there. I'd also add that there is no sort of human right to having your own homogeneous country. Most countries in the world have large sects of the population that would like to form their own autonomous states, many with populations substantially larger than that which initially carved out Israel for themselves. Unfortunately we live on a planet in which most of all land that's remotely habitable has been claimed by somebody.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    Israel isn't a homogenous country. It is majority jewish, but there are large minorities of Arabs, Druze, levant Christians, etc. These minorities--just under 30% of the population--hold full citizenship and have the same civil rights as any other Israeli. Zionism is a desire to have a majority-jewish state that is strong enough to protect jews from future pogroms. It is not a quest for a homogenous state.
    - darick 1y ago
      Yes, and surely these minorities are not treated like second class citizens? What's that? "A 2018 report by the Israeli State Comptroller on the protection of non-Jewish civilians found that 46% of Arab citizens in Israel lack access to adequate shelters, compared to 26% of the general population" In the context of bomb shelters.

nemothekid 1y ago

[flagged]

ukblewis 1y ago
[flagged]
- nemothekid 1y ago
  >Zionists do not support genocide. I never said this in my post. This is a reflexive defense on your part as I never specifically called out Zionists, in general, supported genocide. I said, the vast majority of the Knesset, supports genocide. I will say though, zionists in general are wishfully ignorant of this fact. >This is defamatory BS without any evidence at best Which parts are defamatory? Are you seriously going to argue that the Religious Zionist Party doesn't support genocide? Cmon man, Bezalel Smotrich is wanted by the ICC.[1] [1]https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/11/1157286 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/11/1157286
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    The ICC charges do not include genocide, so that doesn't support your claim. Khan sought a somewhat related extermination charge, which was rejected by the pre-trial chamber.

hyperman1 1y ago

I find this a strange take, and I hear it a lot from inhabitants of both the USA and Israel about their leadership. For better or worse, Netanyahu represents the Israeli governement, which represents Israel. Similar with Trump and the USA, or Putin and Russia. Sorry for the people who don't agree with them, but that's an internal power struggle, and as an outsider it is normal to abstract that away. For all of us: Your country is doing what it does. As a Belgian, I spit on my idiotic, nasty governements. Insert tiny violin, whatever Belgium does on the international forum, I'll still be tarred with it. Similarly, we talk about Germany's role in world war 2, even if only about 10% of them were associated with the NSDAP. Every power struggle is always represented overly simplistic. Sorry for both the jews and Israëli's who don't agree with it, you're probably good people. This time I am lucky to sit at a very comfortable sideline, criticising your country. But the point stands: Israel is correctly described as officially committing a genocide, and hence it can't be described as the good side.

dotancohen 1y ago
[flagged]
- VerminOctopus1 1y ago
  The evidence of Israel’s genocide is plain to see. Israel is directly responsible for the systematic murder of countless civilians, a disgusting portion of which are children. What you are doing with this comment is attempting to shift the blame and responsibility in a transparent and gross manner. The journalists are not the problem, the people dropping the bombs every day are.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    [flagged]
- lupusreal 1y ago
  You are denying the most well documented genocide in human history. Bad look my dude.