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I know we’re not supposed to think about this, but is this controlled for region of origin? That has been changing, and so if that impacts school performance (s
by pfannkuchen 1y ago
I know we’re not supposed to think about this, but is this controlled for region of origin? That has been changing, and so if that impacts school performance (schools designed by westerners, mind you, in a societal model designed by the same), then we would expect this to change as well right?
- Simulacra 1y agoIt depends, is this a federal problem, or a local problem? Because I don't see the federal department of education has really done anything to improve scores. So this may be a local issue, and of local resources.
- bluGill 1y agoThere are very large regional effects. We talk about Finland's scores being great, but I have no idea what France's scores are... We should compare US scores to all of the EU if we want to fair comparison.
- add-sub-mul-div 1y agoNet immigration has been trending down for a decade, but I'm not cynical enough to think we're not churning out some pretty smart kids of our own!
- trynumber9 1y agoPerhaps, but the percentage of Americans foreign-born is at a 100 year high. And the percentage of under 18s who have a foreign-born parent is at an all-time high (25.6% of students, the previous peak was 21.6% in 1920). And if their children are underperforming in schools it would be important to know.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago[flagged]
- mushroomba 1y agoTabula Rasa remains the axiom upon which the entire post-war world is founded. Regardless of its truth, to question it is to question this world's fundamental belief. To speak against it is to speak against existence itself. The emperor's robes are fine indeed.
- lagniappe 1y agoSay it with your chest: the comment is implying USA has more immigrants, and the immigrants arriving have lower outcomes on IQ related tasks.
- bluGill 1y agoNot just immigrants (though that is likely what was intended). It could also imply non-immigrants with lower IQ are having more babies.
- ninetyninenine 1y agoNo. Pre 2000s IQ scores from China were largely lower because China didn’t have the infrastructure to support such tests to its full potential. It’s not immigrants. Immigrants are in general more intelligent than people from the US. I’m saying the average IQ of people outside of the US has risen and that is a huge part of the declining IQ in the US. IQ is normalized every year and if the IQ of say China rises significantly every year that would appear as if the US IQ is lowering even if everything in the US actuality stayed the same. If anything immigrants heighten the IQ of the US. Look at the proportion of Faang engineers. These companies essentially require IQ tests for entry. There’s a reason why these companies are overloaded with immigrants or people with origins from abroad. A lot of people making stupid assumptions about what I said in this thread. I am in fact really remarking on China. The economic rise to power makes IQ tests originating from China influence the normalization of IQ in a big way. It’s still offensive to people but I believe on average IQ is generally higher for China than the US. The bell curve is essentially a bit more to the right for China. Also try not to get offended. These are statistical facts. I feel immigrants got offended but really what I’m saying should be offensive to white people.
- 1y ago
- guelo 1y ago[flagged]
- coredog64 1y agoFixing problems intelligently requires addressing root causes.
- Nicook 1y agoIt does. I went down a rabbit hole for this once and yes children of immigrants underperform for math and reading testing v immigrant groups. Can go dig up the .gov links assuming they didnt go away
- tptacek 1y agoIs that signal, or is it just mean-reversion, because first-generation immigrant groups tend to have strong academic performance?
- jimt1234 1y agoEvery immigrant I've known that's around my age has told me basically the same story. When they came to the US as a child, and got put into public school, they struggled with reading (they could barely speak English, much less read it), but they excelled at math. I've heard this from people born in China, Taiwan, Mexico, Iraq, Iran, Japan, etc.
- fullshark 1y agoIs every immigrant you've known about your age someone you met through work / school and do you work in tech / on a STEM degree? If so then your sample is obviously biased.
- orochimaaru 1y agoThat’s a strange one. The highest performing public schools are generally where Chinese and Indian origin kids are a significant minority - I.e. around 20-30%.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Nicook 1y agoChinese and Indian kids being above is outweighed in this case by others. Look at the volume of immigrants and whatever countries they come from. The east asians are the exception not the norm.
- tptacek 1y ago[flagged]
- BJones12 1y agoOr you could just not imply that people are racist when they want to discuss the truth.
- pfannkuchen 1y agoI don’t see where race comes in, necessarily. We just need to compare with country of origin performance. If a family relocates from a place with low scores to a place with high scores, can you explain why you think we would expect their scores to rapidly increase to match the new place? I can think of many factors that would work against this that have nothing to do with race or genetics. If the study is not controlled for this, then the education system at large may not have the kind of problem we would think about if we ignored this aspect. That seems pretty important to the discussion, I think?
- tptacek 1y agoI don't think it necessarily does come in! I just think you have to be careful about this stuff, and the comment you wrote wasn't careful. I wouldn't care, except it spawned a gnarly thread --- that thread is what I noticed first, not anything you wrote.
- pfannkuchen 1y agoFor future reference, and as an example, how would you recommend I rephrase my comment to preclude gnarlification?
- tptacek 1y agoI think if you literally just struck the first clause, you'd have a fine comment. I'm not the boss of you, though!
- deleted 1y ago
- quotemstr 1y ago> not supposed to think about this Not supposed to think about it according to whom? Who's telling you that? Why are you listening to him? The US has some of the best public schools in the world. The US also tops the world on spending per student, especially in poorly performing areas. The education crisis disappears when you control for demographics. It's right to notice that and remains right no matter how much pushback you get from people who've been pushing the same broken solutions for 50 years. Congratulations for adopting an independent perspective here. We need more of you.
- senordevnyc 1y agoSounds like we need to spend even more on those “demographics” to get their performance up!
- rootusrootus 1y agoAre you serious? Because I've heard it argued that this is one of the fundamental differences in the approach between left and right. The left thinks money can solve all problems if we just spend more of it in the right place. The right thinks there is a cultural problem to be solved. I'm generally quite progressive but I am beginning to appreciate that the right may have a good argument.
- 3cKU 1y ago> The right thinks there is a cultural problem to be solved. That's also the left. The right holds the differences are genetic, not likely to change, and the only problem to solve is how to keep them out of the country.
- dmbche 1y agoWhat do you think you mean with "cultural problem to be solved" that doesn't involve "putting money in the right place"?