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EU should to the same (FB & X). In general anything that has "algorytmic content ordering" that pushes content triggering strong emotional reactions should be
by ktosobcy 1y ago
EU should to the same (FB & X).
In general anything that has "algorytmic content ordering" that pushes content triggering strong emotional reactions should be banned and burned to the ground.
- tomp 1y agoWhy would "algorithmic" outrage-porn content (X, Meta) be any worse than human-ordered outrage-porn content (news websites)?
- ktosobcy 1y agoNews websites are regulated…
- socalgal2 1y agothey are? As far as I can tell they are no more regulated than anyone else. There in the issue that a news site generally has limited number of contributors where has a social media site has an infinite number of contributors. In either case, it seems like the same laws apply like defamation laws, fraud laws, etc apply to the authors of the posts which might be easier to target when it’s a news site as the site itself takes responsibility for the content
- ktosobcy 1y agoYes, they are (not sure about US). In general the mere fact that there is limited number of contributors that are known and indicated authorship goes a long way. Also - all publishers have to register indicating who is behind particular "medium". Contrary, social-"media" there is no accountability. Anyone can publish anything and there is basically no information who published that. You can sue but then again publishing platform has no information about the author so the process is long and convoluted. Making social-media what it started from (network of close friends) where you only see the content they publish and requirement of actual details who is behind the particular profile (could be for pages/profiles with more than something like 10k followers, in which case - let's be honest - it's not "friend" at that point) would go a long way.
- godshatter 1y agoI'm not a big fan of banning things like this. There's good mixed in with the bad and banning things will only lead to new social media sites rising in their place. I don't expect them to be any better. This is basically a fight against human nature. If I could get one wish, it would be legislation that forces social media sites to explain in detail how their algorithms work. I have to believe that a company could make a profitable social media site that doesn't try all the tricks in the books to hook their users to their site and rile them up. They may not be Meta-sized, but I would think there would be a living in it.
- op00to 1y agoI don’t think people want to understand how algorithms manipulate them.
- strbean 1y ago> I'm not a big fan of banning things like this. I think this is a pretty perfect use case for banning. The harms are mostly derived from the business model. If the social media companies were banned from operating them, and the bans were evaded by DIYers, Mastodon and the like, most of the problems disappear. When there's still money in the black market alternative, banning doesn't work well (see: narcotics).
- paultnylund 1y ago[dead]
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago> pushes content triggering strong emotional reactions should be banned Aren't you describing your own comment? Aren't upvotes pushing that to the top? So isn't HN the thing that needs to be banned according to your comment?
- abdullahkhalids 1y agoNo. Facebook algorithm produces different outputs for every user. HN's algorithm produces one output for all users. They are qualitatively distinct. Facebooks' algorithm is demonstrably harmful. HN's not so much.
- Karrot_Kream 1y agoDo you have proof that demonstrates that FB's algorithm is more harmful than upvotes on HN or Reddit? Not that it's harmful compared to a world before FB, that it's more harmful than an upvote based algorithm.
- jerrycruncher 1y agoThis is a really canonical example of a "Yet you participate in a society. Curious!" post. Well done. [0] https://imgur.com/we-should-improve-society-somewhat-T6abwxn https://imgur.com/we-should-improve-society-somewhat-T6abwxn
- Karrot_Kream 1y agoThanks. I try really hard. Wait was that supposed to be a backhanded compliment? No way, can't be, HN is above that kind of behavior (: My point, overall, is that there is all the criticism of social media that excludes HN is based on vibes. And if we're about to ban social media for the EU then hopefully we have more than vibes to go off of.
- blargey 1y agoThe opposite, actually - I remember reading that HN downranks posts that have a low favorability:engagement ratio - in its case, high comment count and comparatively low votes. The reasoning being that flamebait topics inspire a disproportionate number of angry/low-substance/pile-on comments and retort-chains compared to normal topics, without garnering a corresponding increase in top-level votes. It's imperfect, but afaik most social media does the opposite (all "engagement" is good engagement), and I imagine, say, Twitter would be much nicer if it tuned its algo to not propagate posts with an unusually high view/retweet count relative to likes.
- rasmus-kirk 1y agoI like this, but it also leaves the door wide open to censorship. Also this would include Youtube which would be a marked detirioration in learning.
- Krssst 1y agoWe can have freedom of expression with a regular chronological feed from selected followed users. There's no need for a smart feed that optimises whatever the entity owning the network wants.
- rdm_blackhole 1y agoYes, let's give more power to the EU, the entity that's been trying to ban encryption within the EU for the last 3 years and wants to read all your messages, scan all your pictures, but pinky promise, it won't use the data to hunt down political dissidents or silence opposing views. I am sure it's going to be swell. Let's also require tech companies to only allow content that has been approved by the central committee for peace and tolerance (TM) while we are it! No risk of censorship there.
- Jon_Lowtek 1y agoThe EU is not a single mind, it is many party democracy. Yes there are forces in it that have been pushing for "lawful interception" for some time now. And they have always failed to ban E2E-encryption. In the USA there exist similar forces who also introduced bills with similar ideas multiple times in the last decade. One of those is currently in congress.
- amelius 1y agoLet's start with banning the monetization model.
- bsder 1y agoAgreed. If anyone in the medical community tried the stuff that Facebook and Google do, it would fail immediately at an ethics review board and/or the person would lose their medical license.
- txrx0000 1y agoThere is immense value in the ability to share realtime events with the rest of the world. If the curation algorithm is the problem, then the solution should target only that, not "BLOW IT ALL UP". There are a few ways: 1) We can build open-source clients with user-configurable client-side recommendation algorithms. 2) We can shame the people actively working to make this problem worse, especially if they make 1) or 3) harder. 3) We can build decentralized protocols like Nostr to pry social media from the hands of tech giants altogether. These solutions are not mutually exclusive, so we should pursue all of them.
- thinkingtoilet 1y agoIt's such an obvious poison. Social media is responsible for the destruction of civility on so many levels. It has destroyed a generations attention span. It is a drug that is more powerful and addictive than something like weed. It seems like people here are too young to remember a life before it. It has transformed society negatively in just a decade. It absolutely should go. I'm glad you did something positive on it. Or found a community. You can still do that without social media. It needs to go.
- __MatrixMan__ 1y agoWhat needs to go is advertising. The evils of social media are not consequences of people using the internet to connect with other people, they're consequences of people using platforms where you can buy a following instead of having to earn it.
- ktosobcy 1y agoIMHO there were better communities on old forums...
- thinkingtoilet 1y agoAnd it was contained. If you have a small group, you can manage an asshole or two, sometimes it can even be endearing ("he's an asshole, but he's our asshole"). Once the numbers start going up the toxicity increases by orders of magnitude. It's impossible to moderate. The benefits nearly all fall away and the negatives are amplified. Add on the smartest people in the world working very hard to get everyone, including children, addicted to social media and it's fucking nefarious.
- diggan 1y ago> Once the numbers start going up the toxicity increases by orders of magnitude. It's impossible to moderate. As someone who spent an embarrassingly long time on what lots of people claim to be the most toxic forum in the world (not sure about that, it's the biggest in the Nordics though, that's for sure), and even moderated some categories on that forum that many people wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, it really isn't that hard to moderate even when the topics are sensitive and most users are assholes. I'd argue that moderation is difficult today on lots of platforms because it's happening too much "on the fly" so you end up with moderators working with the rules differently and applying them differently, depending on mood/topic/whatever. If you instead make a hard list of explicit rules, with examples, and also establish internal precedents that moderators can follow, a lot of the hard work around moderation basically disappears, regardless of how divisive the topic is. But it's hard and time-consuming work, and requires careful deliberation and transparent ruling.
- eviks 1y agoOnly with all the censors as kindling!
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- _mlbt 1y ago[flagged]
- sniffers 1y ago"We should kill/imprison peoples who have (immutable characteristic)" is hardly just a "mean thing people post". There's mean content ("I think you are an asshole") and there's content that's going to cause actual harm because it either goads others to violence or because it creates a constant cortisol increase from fear and dehumanization.
- daoboy 1y agoI strongly agree that free speech is crucial, but the first part of your statement is in direct opposition to the second. People stating their perspectives and arguing against other's with complete disregard for civility (or being 'mean' as you said), makes it far more difficult for people to respect opposing viewpoints.
- spacebanana7 1y agoOn the contrary, I think a meaningful part of the population is incapable of digesting ideas without them being coupled to conflict. You don't need to respect opposing viewpoints in order to engage with them. For such people everything must be framed in a good versus evil, us vs them or generally sensationalist manner to sustain any kind of attention.
- alistairSH 1y agoThe problem, to me anyway, is that FB etc don't serve me the opinions of people I know and want to engage with. Instead, they serve me a stream of content specifically tailored to annoy me and get the dopamine hit and make me react. Of course, my solution was to stop using those services. But, I wouldn't be surprised if certain personality types are unable to do that (same as they can't quit smoking or porn or whatever else).
- ktosobcy 1y agoHow do you learn to "deal and tolerate" people that constantly spit in your face? Especially if you try to avoid them but the platform does everything in its power to stear them your way? It's basically a dark entity that cranks up footbal hooligans and then push them on the collision course. There is no civility there.
- nradov 1y agoFortunately the US federal government is standing up for the interests of US tech companies, and for the principle of free speech. They won't let the EU get away with such an extreme authoritarian move.
- a_ba 1y agoThis administration is not standing up for the principles of free speech. It has violated this principle numerous times in action and in spirit.
- myvoiceismypass 1y ago> for the principle of free speech Indeed. You are free to praise the president or face the consequences. Some freedom.
- jajko 1y agoInterest of tech companies (or more specifically their stockholders), for sure. Not so much for the long term interests of its citizens though.
- maleldil 1y ago> standing up for the interests of US tech companies Imagine if they stood up for the interests of citizens instead.
- pessimizer 1y ago> for the principle of free speech This administration is taking a newly-formed censorship regime that was largely operated by the nepo babies of politicians running do-nothing tax-supported nonprofits, but implemented and operated by Mossad agents, and removing the nepo babies from the loop. You can say "retard" now, but if you call somebody who executes Palestinian children a retard, you're going on a government blacklist. edit: This post has been classified and filed, and associated with me for the rest of my life.
- int_19h 1y agoI'm very skeptical of EU censorship, but EU citizens can and should figure it out for themselves. There's no reason why we Americans should be telling them how to run their economies, nor do we have some intrinsic right for our companies to operate in any random market.
- plopilop 1y agoSooo... Should we ban Google too? It is also ordering the contents of its research results with algorithms. Similarly, HN and reddit order the contents of their front page with some algorithms, and in the case of Google and Reddit, the algorithm is personalized with the user's preferences. Or do we only ban websites that design their algorithms to trigger strong emotional emotions? How do you define that? Even Musk doesn't go around saying that the algorithm is modified to promote alt right, instead he pretends it is all about "bringing balance back". Furthermore, I would argue that systems based on votes such as Reddit or HN are much more likely than other systems to push such content. We could issue a regulation to ban specific platforms or websites (TikTok, X...) by naming them individually, but that would probably go against many rules of free competition, and would be quite easily circumvented. Not that I disagree on the effect of social medias on society, but regulating this is not as easy as "let's ban the algorithm".
- ktosobcy 1y agoERM, FB itself admited they made a research regarding emotional response to the content they show. FB/X modus operandi is keep as much people for as long possible glued to the screen. The most triggering content will awaken all those "keyboard wariors" to fight. So instead of seeing your friends and people you follow on there you would mostly see something that would affect you one way or another (hence proliferation of more and more extreme stuff). Google is going downhill but for different reasons - they also care only about investors bottomline but being the biggest ad-provider they don't care all that much if people spend time on google.com page or not.
- plopilop 1y agoOh, I know that strong emotions increase engagement, outrage being a prime candidate. I have also no issue believing that FB/TikTok/X etc aggressively engage in such tactics, e.g. [0]. But I am not aware of FB publicly acknowledging that they deliberately tune the algorithm to this effect, even though they carried some research on the effects of emotions on engagement (I would love to be proven wrong though). But admitting FB did publicly say they manipulate their users' emotions for engagement, and a law is passed preventing that. How do you assess that the new FB algorithm is not manipulating emotions for engagement? How do you enforce your law? If you are not allowed to create outrage, are you allowed to promote posts that expose politicians corruption? Where is the limit? Once again, I hate these algorithms. But we cannot regulate by saying "stop being evil", we need specific metrics, targets, objectives. A law too broad will ban Google as much as Facebook, and a law too narrow can be circumvented in many ways. [0] https://www.wsj.com/tech/facebook-algorithm-change-zuckerberg-11631654215?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/tech/facebook-algorithm-change-zuckerber...
- richwater 1y ago[flagged]
- woodpanel 1y ago[flagged]
- dang 1y agoPlease don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 1y agoCould you please stop posting flamebait, ideological battle comments, etc? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- wmeredith 1y agoI saw a really good analogy the other day (on X, natch) that said subscribing to modern social media is like inviting a clown to come in your house every 10 minutes and scream, "It's gotten worse". I think about that a lot. Curation goes a long way, but it takes work.
- mrcwinn 1y agoNot to the same degree, but I'd argue HN has the same tendencies. Cynical, skeptical, assuming the worst intentions, a bogeyman tech giant hoping to destroy its own customers. Skepticism is, of course, healthy, but the default behavior in this community completely misses the reality that had we frozen progress, say, right near the Apple II launch, we never get HackerNews itself. :) And if you accept my premise, it's probably not the websites, but rather the humans themselves.
- hshshshshsh 1y agoHave you worked in a fortune 500?
- yannyu 1y agoIt's one thing to have a community that has tendencies towards cynicism, skepticism, and assuming the worst. It's another thing to build an algorithm optimized for "engagement" which prioritizes polarizing content above all others because it keeps people addicted to the platform. Maybe the problem is the websites that amplify the most controversial and problematic content because they get the most clicks, so these companies can report better DAUs and MAUs.