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> But immigration is the only thing that can replenish their workforce. Unchecked immigration of people who do not share the majority of the destination’s cult

> But immigration is the only thing that can replenish their workforce. Unchecked immigration of people who do not share the majority of the destination’s cultural values leads to a monoculture that is terrible for everyone. Multiculturalism doesn’t work when everyone’s culture is equal everywhere. And unless it wasn’t obvious, I firmly believe in multiculturalism, but I believe we (here in Europe in particular) have been misled about what it should look like. And no it’s not about ethnicity. And that’s saying nothing about the impact on source countries as some other comments go into.

oezi 1y ago
As another European I don't understand your argument because Europe has seen so much internal migration over the hundreds of years that it is weird to argue it is leading to monoculture. Also unchecked migration to Europe is down to 200.000 people per year so less than 0.1% of population.
- simianparrot 1y ago
  I include poor vetting and integration as unchecked immigration if that wasn’t obvious. And do note that I wrote > people who do not share the majority of the destination’s cultural values No culture should nor can stay stagnant. But if we allow in people who do not share or wish to share a majority of our cultural values, which vary a lot between European countries as well, then we deteriorate what made our countries lucrative destinations for these people faster than we can maintain it. It’s not complicated. Why are all those people coming here if all cultures are equal?
  - orwin 1y ago
    I'm pretty sure US cultural slop destroyed more of my culture in the last 20 years than immigration ever did, and while immigrants are part of the movement for sure (especially English retirees, but also a lot of 2nd/3rd gen migrants from eastern Europe/North Africa), they're not the main driver.
    - makingstuffs 1y ago
      100% I often say to people that the reason for the UK’s loss of culture is not immigration but the fact that we, as British people, stopped being British in pursuit of the ‘American dream’. Somewhere along the line we stopped looking to our own previous generations (which include European nations as, you know, we’re Europeans) for cultural identity and started following Hollywood as our cultural oracle. Generations of this has lead to the mess you see unraveling in the UK at the moment.
      - Earw0rm 1y ago
        Yes, this! A few Pakistanis moving in down the road doesn't stop British people practicing British culture. The reason they don't can be summarised as laziness and ignorance. "The pub got turned into a mosque", maybe it did but it wasn't because the Moors invaded fgs. A successful pub gets to carry on being one - if it's not successful, maybe that's because people stopped using it.
        Levitz 1y ago
        >A successful pub gets to carry on being one - if it's not successful, maybe that's because people stopped using it. And pray tell, how does the influx of a muslim, non-alcohol-drinking population, influence this?
        Earw0rm 1y ago
        Depends how they're influxing. If they're seizing our homes and land by force and taking over our government, sure. But as far as I can see, they're working for the NHS, running restaurants and shops and so on, and buying/renting homes that come up on the market like everyone else. London's Muslim mayor was elected by an absolute majority even though Muslims are only about 12% of the city's population. Nobody is stopping Brits from doing Brit stuff - it's our own fault if we choose not to. Far as I can see, what's done a lot of basic pubs in is a combination of lifestyle changes, people who don't like the smoking ban, and younger people wanting to spend time down the gym instead of drinking.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
    That's a great soundbite but if you asked e.g. the average British person just before Brexit they'd tell you that they are worried about all the Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians, i.e. other Europeans, coming here, taking our jobs, scrounging wellfare and so on. I mean, realistically speaking, they'd be bitching about Pakistanis and Indians and Middle Eastern immigrants also, but in 2016 the British voted to exit the European Union, not the Middle Eastern Union. The hint is right there, in the name.
    - nradov 1y ago
      Right, and now UK voters are increasingly opposed to immigration from India, Nigeria, and China. The UK government allowed a large increase in legal immigration, particularly to find more elder care workers. But that appears to be causing a backlash. https://www.wsj.com/world/uk/britain-farage-migration-debacle-245baf3e https://www.wsj.com/world/uk/britain-farage-migration-debacl...
      - Sharlin 1y ago
        Certainly an interesting source of cognitive dissonance. Few would admit it, but in practice I can see many people feeling more strongly about foreigners than humane care for the elderly (we've alredy done a good job at putting them out of sight, out of mind!)
      - HDThoreaun 1y ago
        Maybe the UK voters are idiots who dont learn from their mistakes?
  - paulryanrogers 1y ago
    > It’s not complicated. Why are all those people coming here if all cultures are equal? Because they're coming from resource poor countries to those which are richer? Or from regimes that have been captured by an oppressive minority. Or because their nation is being attacked by an aggressive neighbor (or distant empire)?
- Balgair 1y ago
  >it is weird to argue it is leading to monoculture. As an outside that has visited your large continent a fair few times, yeah, you guys are pretty monocultural. I know that such a statement is just literal nonsense to y'all and quite unbelievable. And yes, you all have a different flag, and a different language. But the day-to-day details are very similar. Every day y'all wake up at pretty much the same time, everyone eats a light breakfast of some pastry or another and a lot of caffeine and nicotine. Then off to work on pretty much the exact same road in the same little cars. 10 rolls about and y'all fuck off to grab an espresso (Yes UK, you too, the tea thing is BS, you love coffee, we all see it) and a cigarette. You raff about for 30 min. Then back to work for a bit. Lunch rolls on by and it's carb and protein time for the men and salads for the women. By this I mean potatoes and something with a french sauce. More caffeine and nicotine. The afternoon is then set for either sleeping, or pretending not to (I love this about y'all). Work fucks off at about 4-5 depending, nothing on Fridays though. You all then fuck off to a place to get more nicotine and then alcohol or a few hours. Dinner comes after round 2-3, more carbs and meat this time, maybe pasta. Half cocked, you all end up in the same small homes. (yes, yes, but everyone is like this too!. No, you all do it the same way at the same pace, all of you.) It's all the same sports (football), the same seasons, the same lives. Yes, you all think that your life is so different for your neighbor, but I'm telling you, the pace, the styles, the food, the drinks, the drugs of choice, the houses, the children, Europeans may not be brothers, but you are very close cousins. The rest of the world think you all mad that you hate each other so much when you're living in the same house, acting the same way. It's the same Euopean culture.
  - oezi 1y ago
    Well thank you to put it so brilliantly. Since what you describe seems mostly a global experience by now for all who can afford it, I am wondering what other cultures you have in mind which has a dislike for breakfast, coffee, booze and cigarettes.
ponector 1y ago
How it doesn't work if it actually is? However there is a lack of law enforcement and lack of integration programs for immigrants.
pembrook 1y ago
Huh? The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into. Aesthetic Traditions ≠ Culture. Traditions are just one aspect, but as Nietzsche wrote about the death of God, traditions are not a substitute for values. America for hundreds of years has offered a shared vision of the future and values to immigrants of every background, and within <1 generation most immigrants become fully integrated. When European identities are all built around stories from the past, and the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes (climate apocalypse, population decline, social welfare breakdown, economic malaise, technophobia), it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture. I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. When your sales pitch is: "we don't like new things here so there's nothing to create, but life here is easy, you don't have to do much because the state will take care of you!" I don't think you're attracting the best citizens.
- simianparrot 1y ago
  > the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes I agree with this. Far too many European countries have no optimistic or even productive outlooks on the future, instead seeming to trade in a form of pessimistic reductionism. Eat less, do less, be less. However: > it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture Then why do they stay as long as they can drain resources? I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. That mentality is alien to me. That isn't to say every immigrant is a drain on resources, but the ones that do not buy into the culture, do not buy into the vision (or lack thereof), and do not contribute -- why are they here? Simply because despite all of that it's better than where they came from? If so, we're doing both ourselves and them a disservice by not denying them entry, because both parties end up miserable.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    >I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. Hey, good for you. But there are many societies where making a living without working is something to be proud of. I know because I live in one.

oezi 1y ago

As another European I don't understand your argument because Europe has seen so much internal migration over the hundreds of years that it is weird to argue it is leading to monoculture. Also unchecked migration to Europe is down to 200.000 people per year so less than 0.1% of population.

simianparrot 1y ago
I include poor vetting and integration as unchecked immigration if that wasn’t obvious. And do note that I wrote > people who do not share the majority of the destination’s cultural values No culture should nor can stay stagnant. But if we allow in people who do not share or wish to share a majority of our cultural values, which vary a lot between European countries as well, then we deteriorate what made our countries lucrative destinations for these people faster than we can maintain it. It’s not complicated. Why are all those people coming here if all cultures are equal?
- orwin 1y ago
  I'm pretty sure US cultural slop destroyed more of my culture in the last 20 years than immigration ever did, and while immigrants are part of the movement for sure (especially English retirees, but also a lot of 2nd/3rd gen migrants from eastern Europe/North Africa), they're not the main driver.
  - makingstuffs 1y ago
    100% I often say to people that the reason for the UK’s loss of culture is not immigration but the fact that we, as British people, stopped being British in pursuit of the ‘American dream’. Somewhere along the line we stopped looking to our own previous generations (which include European nations as, you know, we’re Europeans) for cultural identity and started following Hollywood as our cultural oracle. Generations of this has lead to the mess you see unraveling in the UK at the moment.
    - Earw0rm 1y ago
      Yes, this! A few Pakistanis moving in down the road doesn't stop British people practicing British culture. The reason they don't can be summarised as laziness and ignorance. "The pub got turned into a mosque", maybe it did but it wasn't because the Moors invaded fgs. A successful pub gets to carry on being one - if it's not successful, maybe that's because people stopped using it.
      - Levitz 1y ago
        >A successful pub gets to carry on being one - if it's not successful, maybe that's because people stopped using it. And pray tell, how does the influx of a muslim, non-alcohol-drinking population, influence this?
        Earw0rm 1y ago
        Depends how they're influxing. If they're seizing our homes and land by force and taking over our government, sure. But as far as I can see, they're working for the NHS, running restaurants and shops and so on, and buying/renting homes that come up on the market like everyone else. London's Muslim mayor was elected by an absolute majority even though Muslims are only about 12% of the city's population. Nobody is stopping Brits from doing Brit stuff - it's our own fault if we choose not to. Far as I can see, what's done a lot of basic pubs in is a combination of lifestyle changes, people who don't like the smoking ban, and younger people wanting to spend time down the gym instead of drinking.
- YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
  That's a great soundbite but if you asked e.g. the average British person just before Brexit they'd tell you that they are worried about all the Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians, i.e. other Europeans, coming here, taking our jobs, scrounging wellfare and so on. I mean, realistically speaking, they'd be bitching about Pakistanis and Indians and Middle Eastern immigrants also, but in 2016 the British voted to exit the European Union, not the Middle Eastern Union. The hint is right there, in the name.
  - nradov 1y ago
    Right, and now UK voters are increasingly opposed to immigration from India, Nigeria, and China. The UK government allowed a large increase in legal immigration, particularly to find more elder care workers. But that appears to be causing a backlash. https://www.wsj.com/world/uk/britain-farage-migration-debacle-245baf3e https://www.wsj.com/world/uk/britain-farage-migration-debacl...
    - Sharlin 1y ago
      Certainly an interesting source of cognitive dissonance. Few would admit it, but in practice I can see many people feeling more strongly about foreigners than humane care for the elderly (we've alredy done a good job at putting them out of sight, out of mind!)
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      Maybe the UK voters are idiots who dont learn from their mistakes?
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  > It’s not complicated. Why are all those people coming here if all cultures are equal? Because they're coming from resource poor countries to those which are richer? Or from regimes that have been captured by an oppressive minority. Or because their nation is being attacked by an aggressive neighbor (or distant empire)?
Balgair 1y ago
>it is weird to argue it is leading to monoculture. As an outside that has visited your large continent a fair few times, yeah, you guys are pretty monocultural. I know that such a statement is just literal nonsense to y'all and quite unbelievable. And yes, you all have a different flag, and a different language. But the day-to-day details are very similar. Every day y'all wake up at pretty much the same time, everyone eats a light breakfast of some pastry or another and a lot of caffeine and nicotine. Then off to work on pretty much the exact same road in the same little cars. 10 rolls about and y'all fuck off to grab an espresso (Yes UK, you too, the tea thing is BS, you love coffee, we all see it) and a cigarette. You raff about for 30 min. Then back to work for a bit. Lunch rolls on by and it's carb and protein time for the men and salads for the women. By this I mean potatoes and something with a french sauce. More caffeine and nicotine. The afternoon is then set for either sleeping, or pretending not to (I love this about y'all). Work fucks off at about 4-5 depending, nothing on Fridays though. You all then fuck off to a place to get more nicotine and then alcohol or a few hours. Dinner comes after round 2-3, more carbs and meat this time, maybe pasta. Half cocked, you all end up in the same small homes. (yes, yes, but everyone is like this too!. No, you all do it the same way at the same pace, all of you.) It's all the same sports (football), the same seasons, the same lives. Yes, you all think that your life is so different for your neighbor, but I'm telling you, the pace, the styles, the food, the drinks, the drugs of choice, the houses, the children, Europeans may not be brothers, but you are very close cousins. The rest of the world think you all mad that you hate each other so much when you're living in the same house, acting the same way. It's the same Euopean culture.
- oezi 1y ago
  Well thank you to put it so brilliantly. Since what you describe seems mostly a global experience by now for all who can afford it, I am wondering what other cultures you have in mind which has a dislike for breakfast, coffee, booze and cigarettes.

ponector 1y ago

How it doesn't work if it actually is? However there is a lack of law enforcement and lack of integration programs for immigrants.

pembrook 1y ago

Huh? The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into. Aesthetic Traditions ≠ Culture. Traditions are just one aspect, but as Nietzsche wrote about the death of God, traditions are not a substitute for values. America for hundreds of years has offered a shared vision of the future and values to immigrants of every background, and within <1 generation most immigrants become fully integrated. When European identities are all built around stories from the past, and the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes (climate apocalypse, population decline, social welfare breakdown, economic malaise, technophobia), it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture. I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. When your sales pitch is: "we don't like new things here so there's nothing to create, but life here is easy, you don't have to do much because the state will take care of you!" I don't think you're attracting the best citizens.

simianparrot 1y ago
> the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes I agree with this. Far too many European countries have no optimistic or even productive outlooks on the future, instead seeming to trade in a form of pessimistic reductionism. Eat less, do less, be less. However: > it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture Then why do they stay as long as they can drain resources? I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. That mentality is alien to me. That isn't to say every immigrant is a drain on resources, but the ones that do not buy into the culture, do not buy into the vision (or lack thereof), and do not contribute -- why are they here? Simply because despite all of that it's better than where they came from? If so, we're doing both ourselves and them a disservice by not denying them entry, because both parties end up miserable.
- dkiebd 1y ago
  >I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. Hey, good for you. But there are many societies where making a living without working is something to be proud of. I know because I live in one.