7 ms·

I wonder how much of the increased schedule times are due to baggage fees? Here is my theory: In 2008, airlines began charging for checked bags[1]. This was

• MaKey 1y ago
  Sometimes there isn’t even enough space in the cabin for all carry-ons, so you have to leave yours with a baggage handler in front of the plane.
  • pigeons 1y ago
    Very often.
    • matthewdgreen 1y ago
      And I assume that adds a bunch of time to the boarding process as well. Generally no bag fees if they have to check those, either.
  • bugglebeetle 1y ago
    I also experienced recently that gate agents will lie about this to decrease turn around time if a plane is running late. We were forced to gate check ours after being told the plane was too full to hold all, only to get onboard and find ample space. When we asked the flight attendant, they apologized and said they did not tell them to do this, but it’s unfortunately common at airports with frequent delays. So charge ridiculous bag fees, forcing everyone to carry on, which delays boarding, so they lie to you and check your bag for free (which maybe you would’ve done to begin with if that was an option), only to board a plane and feel duped. All around great experience!
• duderific 1y ago
  How would they charge for carryons though? Would they charge for say a bag of food you just bought? Also they'd have to put in infrastructure for charging right at the gate, and I'd imagine that would further slow things down, require more staff etc. Just don't think either thing will happen, since clearly they care a lot more about making money than passenger convenience.
  • labcomputer 1y ago
    Ryanair already does this in the UK and Frontier does it in the US, so clearly someone has figured out the logistics of it. Both are ultra-low cost carriers (in the same model as Southwest used to be). As for payments slowing down boarding: I expect that it does, but the price info I see online suggests that the carryon fees are punitive (more than checked baggage, and with a 100% surcharge for paying at the gate). In other words, the purpose of the fee is more about discouraging people from bringing a carryon in the first place than the revenue it generates. Frontier doesn't seem to be shy about reminding customers about the gate pay surcharge, either.
  • tshaddox 1y ago
    They already have the "infrastructure" to prevent one person from bringing on two carry-ons or a carry-on that exceeds the size requirements. I'm not sure what new thing you're imagining they would need.
  • sparky_z 1y ago
    For the record, As a carry-on lover and cheapskate, I viscerally dislike this idea. But your logistical objections don't ring true to me. > How would they charge for carryons though? Would they charge for say a bag of food you just bought? Simple. Charge for the right to put a suitcase in the overhead bins. If it can fit under the seat in front of you, in the seat pocket, or if you can wear it, then no problem. > Also they'd have to put in infrastructure for charging right at the gate The flight attendants already have the ability to say "sorry, you need to check that" if the bins are full or if an item is too big, and then get the item where it needs to go. They already have the ability to charge your card with a handheld reader if you want to order special food items. I'm failing to see the obstacle here.
• aidenn0 1y ago
  United already charges for carryons (the basic-economy fare only includes items small enough to fit under the seat), and if you bring one they charge you more than the checked bag fee to gate-check it.
  • aianus 1y ago
    I like it better this way so I don’t have to stand in line and try to get on the flight early enough to not get my carry-on gate-checked anyways.
• naberhausj 1y ago
  I'm a _somewhat_ frequent flyer (5-8 trips a year). I've never experienced a plane being delayed by the time it take passengers to enter/exit the plane. I have, however, experienced delays because the baggage handlers are still loading the plane. For that reason, I've never understood the obsession with loading the plane quickly.
  • arijun 1y ago
    If they’re not done loading the plane, they don’t have to make an announcement about it because it’s self evident, whereas if everyone is sitting down and ready to go, they will let everyone know what the holdup is. Just yesterday I took a flight where they asked everyone to try to hurry up loading so they could get the plane off the ground sooner.
    • naberhausj 1y ago
      I've also been on flights where they asked us to hurry, and then we (flight attendants included) sat and waited for other things to be completed. Not saying that was what you experienced, of course! Nor am I complaining. My understanding is that gate attendants get penalized if they're the reason the plane is held up, so I understand why they'd play it safe and hurry people. I'd love to see some hard data on this (I've tried to find it in the past, but there's so much fluff about this subject)!
  • tshaddox 1y ago
    I don't think the claim is that boarding causes flights to depart later than scheduled. Of course they plan for the time it takes to board. The claim is that, despite being predictable, it significantly increases the turn-around time for airplanes.
  • drewg123 1y ago
    I've often have the opposite experience. I fly a LOT (4+ times per month) and I hear the bag doors close and watch the handlers drive their ramp away while people are still staggering on-board more than 1/2 the time.
  • 1y ago
• joezydeco 1y ago
  I agree 100% and when I encounter people that don't believe this theory I point out that, once upon a time, Southwest Airlines used to be able to turn an entire 737 in 10 minutes. https://southwest50.com/our-stories/a-turning-point-the-birth-of-the-10-minute-turn/ https://southwest50.com/our-stories/a-turning-point-the-birt...
  • labcomputer 1y ago
    I agree, but it's worth noting that those 10 minute turns were probably -100 or -200 series aircraft with a capacity of about 100 passengers, while a modern Max-8/9/10 aircraft holds about 200 (who still board through a single door). Still, 20 minute turns would be industry-leading.
    • 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
      Is it possible this has anything to do with cheaper tickets and more amateur flyers? There are always some families new to flying that seem to gum up the works.
      • afavour 1y ago
        If that were the case I don’t think Southwest would ever have been record holders in turnaround time. Their tickets have historically been cheaper than many competitors.
        • 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
          The one advantage SW has is the open seating. People will naturally disperse along the length of the plane so as to avoid the middle seat. This could prevent many traffic jams that otherwise slow boarding with the rest of the passengers stuck behind a slow loader. Not sure if it would actually make an impact -you will still get blockages. Would need a queuing theorist to comment.
          • happycube 1y ago
• brnt 1y ago
  Carry-on luggage is transported for free; checked luggage requires paid ground personnel.
• rhplus 1y ago
  Carry on policy has triggered an arms race for passengers and carry on size. I usually just bring a small backpack because it’s convenient and I don’t want to lug two bags through the airport. Recently, certain airlines have announced that small bags must go under seats so there’s room in overhead storage for roller bags. There goes my leg room and any incentive to pack smaller with just one small backpack. Now, I’m incentivized to bring the maximum size carry on so that I get overhead space and don’t have to shove smaller bags next to my feet.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • analog31 1y ago
    Almost 45 years after my first flight, I still carry a backpack. The same one in fact, though its waterproofing is long gone. More often than not, I get to stash it in the overhead bin. There's often space for something like 3-1/2 rollers in a bin, so I can squeeze my bag in. The option of putting it under my seat is something I save for strict necessity, but it's still preferable to gate-checking.
    • 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
      I need dire circumstances to travel with more than a backpack. Waiting for baggage claim drains my soul. Traveling with just a carry on means I can walk off the plane into a cab without further downtime.
      • socalgal2 1y ago
        I'm the opposite. I hate having to drag my lugguage around while I'm in the airport. I'm happy to wait for my baggage to be delivered. My life isn't so frantic that 10-15 minutes more is the end of the world. I also don't see it as "downtime". I can check mail, message friends, call friends, read news, listen to podcasts or audio books, or music, all from my phone while I wait.
        • 1y ago
• api 1y ago
  A lot of pathology in air travel is related to the fact that people use aggregate search engines to find flights and sort by price. The lowest up-front base fare tends to win. So that encourages airlines to nickel and dime later, such as by charging for bags and a million other things, making the whole experience worse. If the whole price had to be flat and bundled into the ticket the experience would be better. It's also an industry that competes on price, and that tends toward a spiral to the bottom in quality. They aren't allowed to skimp too much on safety stuff, and if they did it'd cost more in the long run, but they are incentivized to make seats tiny and uncomfortable and nickel and dime.
• snowwrestler 1y ago
  The article itself shows why scheduled times grew: so that airlines could report a very high percentage of on-time flights, which have regulatory and marketing advantages that they did not before. Passengers preferred carry-on long before fees because checked bags take longer or get lost. I’m not aware of any data showing per-passenger load / unload times have increased. Per-plane load / unload times have definitely increased, because the average passenger count per flight has increased. Bigger planes + fewer empty seats.
  • montroser 1y ago
    Average passenger circumference has also increased.
    • HappMacDonald 1y ago
      I too subscribe to the Anthropogenic Waistband Change model.
  • immibis 1y ago
    A very high percentage of on-time flights is an actual good thing and not just a reporting trick, even if all you have to change to achieve it is the reporting.
• socalgal2 1y ago
  A bullet train holds 2x to 4x the passengers and loads in 2-5 minutes. I get they are very different. Those 2x to 4x passgeners load into 16 cars (so 16 doors). The baggage does not have to be stowed before take off nor do any cargo holds need to be loaded. The aisles are wider. Etc. Still, as an example of the best possible case, it does make me wonder how much more efficient loading a plane could be. I can imagine some magic way to use all of the doors, even if in the short term it means walking on the tarmac to one of 4-6 stair cases. Maybe it doesn't matter. I wonder if anyone has calculated if such a system would save (or lose) money.
  • Lichtso 1y ago
    Relevant "The Better Boarding Method Airlines Won't Use" by CGP Grey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
    • rtkwe 1y ago
      The real limiting factor is the willingness of people to actually follow the system, which I think he mentions but doesn't examine much. It'd be interesting to see if any of the papers test the better systems to see how they fair with noncompliant passengers.
  • massysett 1y ago
    Using a rear door (in addition to the front) for entry and exit is unusual but not unheard of. https://thepointsguy.com/news/why-the-american-airlines-shuttle-continues-the-tradition-of-rear-door-deplaning/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/why-the-american-airlines-shut...
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  • HappMacDonald 1y ago
    Or the loading chute thing that they use could just lead to more doors :)
• ptmcc 1y ago
  Honestly I'd love to check bags more often, but it's too frequently an inordinately slow and risky proposition. I get free checked bags through my preferred airline's credit card, but still almost never do it because it adds so much time and frustration. The number of times I've had to wait an additional hour+ at baggage claim is ridiculous. And I've had bags lost/misrouted a stupid percentage of the time considering how infrequently I check bags. Fortunately never lost for good, but getting your bags days after you arrive is not great. Even airlines like Alaska that have their "20 minute guarantee" often exceed it but get away with it because to make a claim you have to wait in line at the understaffed baggage office, wasting even more time after late bags. Get real. If airlines/airports want to incentivize checking bags they need to do more than just make it free, but make it fast and reliable, too.
• hedora 1y ago
  Anecdotally, Southwest flights now take much longer to board because of the stupid checked luggage fee they just introduced. I’d pay $60 more per flight just to not have to deal with other people screwing with giant carry on bags, and the repeated announcements that there’s no room in the overhead compartments. As a bonus, they also set the sizes for checked luggage slightly below industry standards. Good luck finding something close to but below their linear inch limit. I figured this out because instead of checking three small bags, the family now checks one that’s right up to the weight + size limit. They used to be the best domestic airline (due to enshittification with all the other carriers), and also one of the cheapest. They could have just raised ticket prices by $50 on average and still have been one of the cheapest. Instead of realizing they were the premium choice, they’re racing to become one of the worst airlines. They even recently announced they’re going to charge extra for legroom early next year. I wonder how much it will cost them to move the seats around so some of them have inadequate legroom, and how many rows that’ll add. Anyway, yes, flights have gotten much worse in the last ten years.
  • dreamcompiler 1y ago
    Southwest got taken over by private equity. That always results in enshittification.
  • scarface_74 1y ago
    > I’d pay $60 more per flight just to not have to deal with other people screwing with giant carry on bags, and the repeated announcements that there’s no room in the overhead compartments. It’s been awhile since I’ve boarded less than Group 4 on Delta. But I don’t remember it being that bad even with group 5 - Silver medallion, credit card holders and economy travel.
    • brewdad 1y ago
      I tend to board Group 5 and have had only one flight in the past three years where I wasn't able to put my bag in the bin in my row. That flight was one where they decided to force gate checking before the bins were even half full. Lots of disgruntled passengers then.
• mathiaspoint 1y ago
  Carry on luggage should just be banned. If it can't fit in your lap the whole flight it's not a valid carry on. This is really a safety issue. And tbf, you don't need more. I've traveled internationally with just a laptop bag.
  • hungmung 1y ago
    Airlines have either lost my checked bag or just stolen from it too many times for me to trust them with my possessions again. Maybe if I was transporting horse manure, or unpackaged glitter.
    • mathiaspoint 1y ago
      [flagged]
      • hungmung 1y ago
        You ever try to mail something to or from a developing or semi developed country? You'll be lucky if you ever see it again, let alone have to deal with import controls.
    • scarface_74 1y ago
      Every single statistic I’ve seen shows that lost luggage happens around 1% of the time. We fly fairly frequently - on average more than once per month and it’s really not something we think about.
      • Macha 1y ago
        1% means it happens to 2-3 people per flight. My personal experience is I've had my luggage lost twice in the last 10 years at an average of 6 flights per year, so my personal incidence rate seems to be 2%
        • brewdad 1y ago
          It also means that if you fly every week of the year it will likely only happen to you once all year. For the average traveler, it will be more like once in their entire lifetime. Still sucks when it does happen though.
• dreamcompiler 1y ago
  > I've long contended that airlines should get rid of checked bag fees. I agree, but I think another big incentive for people to bring carryons is how the airlines deal with checked baggage. All too often you have to wait forever to collect your bags, or your bag gets damaged, or your bag gets lost (usually not permanently). With checked bag fees, the airlines took one of the worst aspects of their own service and started charging more for it. And they wonder why nobody wants to check a bag. If airlines took checked bags seriously I'd check bags more often -- even if I had to pay to check them.
• habosa 1y ago
  The budget carriers in Europe (RyanAir, EasyJet, etc) all have fees for carry on bags that are almost as high as checked bags and they only even offer those fees to people who have purchased the “up front” premium seats. They board and deboard planes insanely quickly. Just about the only good thing about those airlines is that they are super dedicated to on-time operations and not wasting time. They can’t afford to waste any time when they’re offering $25 international flights. Of course, not having 9 boarding groups of various status levels helps a lot too.
• BobbyTables2 1y ago
  I fully agree and practically anyone should have seen this coming a mile away. Yet almost 20 years later, the fees largely remain, little has improved. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a discount airline that mandates everyone travel nude without any bags at all. Would make security and boarding a breeze… no more boarding groups! Planes would be lighter — reduced fuel cost — more environmentally friendly. Could even charge for premium robes on arrival.
• codingbot3000 1y ago
  My theory is that the increased turnaround times are due to the fact that people are too stupid to board a plane properly. And Airline staff is doing less about it than, say, 10 years ago, probably being afraid of social media shitstorms or whatever. I'm a frequent flyer, and the sheer carelessness of how people waste the time of everyone behind them in the boarding queue still surprises me. As if in the moment they reach their aisle they immediately forget they, too, were waiting... I do not remember things to be so bad 20 years ago, and even 10 years ago. Some airline staff was quite active in herding the cattle back then, but also the cattle maybe was not as ignorant as today. But maybe I am just becoming an old, grumpy man, and nothing has really changed. Who knows.
• StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  > And if they feel like they really want to be evil, switch the fees to carryons. They have decided to be evil. All low costs companies in Europe have been charging for carry ons since the end of Covid. You are only allowed a backpack which has to fit under the sit in front of you for free and adding carry ons is quite expensive, can be nearly as much as the ticket. Classic airlines have started weighting carry ons before boarding too so it’s only a matter of time before they charge. For a normal traveler and unless you do a very short trip, prices have actually significantly increased in the past few years.
  • mhb 1y ago
    They need to be weighing the passenger with the bag.
• thehappypm 1y ago
  This is honestly why I love flying on spirit. No one has a carry-on bag so you just quickly board and de board at the end.