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Steam can't escape the fallout from its censorship controversy
- ectospheno 1y agoEveryone I know personally still loves steam. We hate more than a few banks and strongly dislike the visa/mastercard duopoly but steam is great. Guessing the game drought is causing some news publications to reach for a story.
- fooqux 1y ago> Guessing the game drought is causing some news publications to reach for a story. Curious. You don't think that this slippery slope we're on is worth reporting on?
- ectospheno 1y agoYes I do. Already discussed. This article adds nothing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44713414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44713414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44783566 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44783566
- kulahan 1y agoI don’t. Slippery slope is always a fallacy until it affects something we want to conserve. There has been a huge push for an absolute lack of censorship in games, so it’s… pretty predictable that we’d see the pendulum swing back, I guess?
- trenchpilgrim 1y agoIt's more than love - I have friends who will actively refuse to buy games on other stores, even for significantly better prices. (To be fair - I think some stores like the Epic Games store actively make playing games on them worse, e.g. I played Alan Wake 2 through Epic and the achievements notifications were massively distracting, ruining many scary and dramatic moments, and they turn themselves back on every time you launch the game...)
- TulliusCicero 1y agoSteam is just way better than other stores, because it's not just a store, it's got a bajillion features besides. And now that I have a Steam Deck, this difference is even more stark.
- tstrimple 1y agoCloud saves that work reliably and games that support the steam workshop instead of 3rd party mod managers makes a huge difference to me. The reality of putting down a game on my desktop and then starting it up again in the same state on my laptop later that night without me having to do or think about anything across basically every game in their store is amazing. I can spend hours crafting my perfect Dwarf Fortress or RimWorld mod setup and it's just saved and available on every computer I play on.
- jjice 1y agoI bought a game on Epic over Steam for the better price once and I'll never do it again. Steam is just too good of a platform and Epic has a lot to work out. Valve has also earned my trust way more than Epic has. Epic comes off as a company of the people sometimes when they drop a suit against Apple or something, but they're exactly the same when it suits them (like their dark patterns for in-game purchases). There have been timed exclusives on Epic that I just waited out, partially out of spite, and mostly because I just wouldn't want to own the game on something that wasn't Steam.
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- bsimpson 1y agoEpic is scummy as hell. They try to play folk hero when it suits them, but someone who actually cared about individual well-being wouldn't lock Linux players out of their flagship games, or use dark patterns like artificial scarcity to get people to spend more time/money in their ecosystem.
- pjmlp 1y agoI never installed, nor plan to. OS specific stores, consoles, and retrogaming already have more games than I am able to play the rest of my life. If they were like Loki in the Linux gamming efforts, I would be willing to kind of sponsor it, for Proton I already have Windows at home.
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- babypuncher 1y agoValve/Steam is the reason gaming on Linux is even viable today
- pjmlp 1y agoUnfortunately by translating Windows games, Valve doesn't even manage to get game studios to port Android/Linux (NDK) into GNU/Linux, shows how much studios care. Better keep targeting Windows.
- babypuncher 1y agoI think this is ultimately a benefit. I've had too many proprietary native Linux games that slowly broke overtime as libraries they depended on changed or became deprecated. Hosting unmaintained proprietary software like this has always been difficult with Linux. With Proton we basically have a common stable runtime that handles all the platform specific needs of a video game. It just so happens that runtime is largely binary-compatible with Windows. It's easier for devs to support when all they have to do is stick to a Proton-compatible subset of the Win32 API. Users get way more games. And anecdotally my experience as a user is generally better than with true native ports. It's a big net win.
- pjmlp 1y agoDevs don't support anything, they target Windows as if Proton did not exist. It is up to Valve to make it work. It is a loss for GNU/Linux as gamming platform. Do you think anyone would be paying for Nintendo and PlayStation consoles, if they were running XBox OS translations, instead of having the games natively target them? That is why all those cheap Chinese handhelds never go nowhere, being basically MAME devices.
- bob1029 1y agoThe customer side of Steam is great but I think their partner program is even more impressive. The quality of support I've received as a developer on Steam makes Apple's App Store ecosystem look like joke.
- iamtedd 1y agoThis needs to be more widely known. As a consumer, I would care more about the developer experience with Steam if more stories were told about it vs. say Epic, but I understand if there are things like commercial-in-confidence, or NDA that prevent it.
- nyeah 1y agoYes we all pray to Gaben that this crisis will pass. I am honored to pay more in His name.
- maverwa 1y agoAs someone who’s using steam daily for probably 50-75% of their lifetime now: I don’t love them, but it’s the lesser evil for sure. Sure, if GOG had even 20% of steams catalog and useability, it be no. 1 without question. But since we‘re sadly limited to this one reality, there is no alternative. XBOX GamePass is a trap I expect to spring every day, Uplay and EA Origin are just a splash screen I see when starting a game in steam, and I almost forgot the epic store exists, despite their “free game” Marketing campaign. It’s not perfect, it’s anti-consumer way to often, and it’s for sure a monopoly’s, but steam is still my favorite poison And yes, if they decide to disable me account and cut me off my pile of shame I will have an impact. But owning games does not seem to be an option generally. Exceptions exist, ofc.
- lupusreal 1y agoGOG is great but I'd like them even more if they did some of the wine/proton work that Steam does for Linux users. For the dosbox games at least it's not much to do (for them nor for myself to be fair.) Steam is simultaneously hard to like, as a DRM service, but also hard to dislike as they put so much care into getting games running on Linux and have a very reasonable return policy, full refunds for the game not working makes it easy for Linux users especially.
- maverwa 1y agoI won’t complain about anyone investing into wine/proton. GOG/CDPR just seem less willing or less capable of spending that money. Valve is essentially printing money. From sales, but also from other, morally less likeable sources like gambling. It’s nice to see them spending at least a tiny part of this in ways that serve the greater good (besides their own business). Same point: it’s not good, but that’s reality for you.
- Ferret7446 1y agoTo be clear, there are many games on Steam without DRM. It's up to the publisher whether Steam DRM is used or not (or if any other 3rd party DRM is used, for that matter). I suspect almost all of the games on GoG, if they are also on Steam, also don't have DRM on Steam.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y agoSteam is great at turning a blind eye to underage gambling
- godelski 1y agoInterestingly Valve makes the most money per head compared to any other company. At $19m/head it's magnitudes above Meta and the average salary is $1.4m[0]! I'm not trying to disparage steam, I actually really like them[1]. I'm pointing it out because it's a business strategy we don't see that often: loyalty. I mean what other billionaire do you know where there's tons of memes of but is also overwhelmingly seen in a positive light? Sure, he doesn't have Elon money but dude has $10bn, I don't think another $290bn is really going to make a big difference in his life[2]. He has way less controversy than Elon had even before all the political stuff. Steam is like Costco, except Gabe is a billionaire. What I'm trying to say is that you can become a billionaire by building a quality product and through customer loyalty. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can be fucking rich, your employees can be fucking rich, you can build a useful, AND a beloved product. In a time where we live in a Lemon Economy, where it is all about making the s̶h̶i̶t̶t̶i̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶u̶y̶ minimum viable product, where we rush for the newest feature and loudest bells and whistles (regardless of if they actually work), Steam stands out. I want more companies like Valve/Steam. [0] https://upptic.com/valve-structure-employment-numbers-revenue-revealed-in-lawsuit/ https://upptic.com/valve-structure-employment-numbers-revenu... [1] Like another user pointed out, they won be over with Linux gaming. I've had a great experience with them, even from the early days. You could tell through github issues they cared. They wouldn't just dismiss things like "oh, we don't support that distro" and actually just figure out what's going on (because your distro doesn't actually matter). They were clearly nerds themselves and nerds that cared. [2] You just can't spend that kind of money. Fucking MacKenzie Scott is trying to give her wealth away as fast as possible, has already given away half her wealth, but she has the same net worth as when she divorced Bezos. Compound interest is a crazy thing. [3] P.S. Fuck Visa and Mastercard. Unless my transaction is illegal, you better fucking process it. Anything short of that is holding my own money hostage. That is fucking theft. You created the duopoly. Don't get greedy or you'll lose it.
- HWR_14 1y agoThe estimates are that Tether makes more per employee than any other company, at somewhere in the hundreds of millions.
- mumbisChungo 1y agoAfter using steam for over 20 years I'd say I feel quite neutral about steam, but actively disdainful toward the alternatives.
- wokkel 1y agoIt's a stupid situation that banks and payment processors force their ethics upon while other companies take the blame (valve in this case). They should just dommoney transfers and as long as the transfer itself is legal should not have any opinion on the parties or product involved in the transaction.
- kasey_junk 1y agoThere are 3 issues being commingled within this. First, the networks have brand protection stipulations for any partner that uses the network. None of them want to be known as the porn brand. Second, porn (and other similar categories) have a different risk profile than other charges. Specifically chargeback risk goes through the roof. None of the members of the network want to deal with sales of things that spike chargebacks. Third, the federal government and some states have outsourced enforcement of some laws to the banks and payment networks. It’s easier to ban things than to do this enforcement at times. None of this is a ethics issue and none of this is about money transfers. It’s about extending credit, and there is no technical solution around credit extension with electronic payments.
- immibis 1y agoNone of this has to be about extending credit. People are trying to buy games with money they have. Why do you say credit has to be involved? They could try cash-by-mail, like Mullvad.
- rpcope1 1y agoWhat exactly do you think "credit card" means?
- immibis 1y agoWhy do you think that buying games necessarily involves a credit card?
- kasey_junk 1y ago
- nimbius 1y agoIf valve can escape the Microsoft store, it can handle a few payment processors. what would happen if Valve accepted Cryptocurrency? in turn, what might happen if valve decided to become a cryptocurrency exchange exclusive to the gaming community? EDIT: another solution is to use a load-wallet based system to shroud transactions from your financial nanny. money in, money out, no explicit evidence of a purchase.
- Arrowmaster 1y agoThey used to but removed it because nobody actually uses crypto currencies as currency. They also already let you load funds onto a wallet for use later.
- pixxel 1y ago[dead]
- rxyz 1y agoI think Valve will not accept crypto unless they run out of options. They don't accept any games that use NFT's on their platform and haven't added crypto top-ups to this day, even though it would be simple for them via providers like Stripe
- fishgoesblub 1y agoSteam used to support Bitcoin to add money to your Steam account. To my knowledge, they removed it due to issues with fees and other stuff.
- nicce 1y agoIt does not make sense to add crypto currencies unless there are official ones in the U.S/EU. Otherwise it is just asking more scamming/instability in the scale of Steam.
- elenchev 1y agoSteam used to accept BTC payments in 2016 but they didn't want to deal with the probabilistic finality of bitcoin so they quickly removed the btc option. previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30478262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30478262
- abcd_f 1y agoIt bears repeating - While all games delisted at MC/Visa demands were from the rape and/or incest nsfw genre (and that should've not been on Steam to begin with), it still set a dangerous precedent as the game selection criteria was ultimately subjective. Relatable, but subjective. Next time it will again be subjective, but not as clear cut, yet the precedent will already be in place.
- kelseyfrog 1y agoThere are better arguments to make than this one. Every law, order, rule, and regulation is captured by this argument. It needs to provide a scissor to be meaningful.
- abcd_f 1y agoPoint being that even though this time the takedown targets were reasonable, the next time they might not be, but the mechanism will be already in place.
- vlovich123 1y agoReasonable by your standard. As others noted not necessarily reasonable by theirs, especially when you contrast it with other games that remain available. It also flies in the face of research that shows that games probably prevent those fantasies from taking place in the real world which seems preferable.
- huhtenberg 1y ago> research that shows ... Hit us with the source. Would love to see the methodology used in it.
- kelseyfrog 1y agoWhat evidence would you accept? What would the methodology and conclusions look like for a study that would be convincing?
- intalentive 1y agoThe monetary system is a public good and should be treated like one, with transparent upfront rules not arbitrary action that takes people by surprise.
- Ekaros 1y agoI can understand banning bad actors that successfully or unsuccessfully perform fraud and other such direct acts against payment processors or merchants. For pretty much anything else, nope only courts in jurisdiction should be able to act... If even then.
- persolb 1y agoI think the root of much of this are money laundering rules. The feds want to be able to punish bad guys without actually proving the crime they are suspected of. There are now a large set of rules which the government isn’t efficient enough to enforce, so it has actually become the banking industry’s legal responsibility. Once such things are normalized, they get stretched.
- mcv 1y agoRidiculous that a few large corporations get to decide this. The only people who have any business deciding what content is or isn't allowed on someone else's platform, are the People, or their representatives in government. I can accept that some content goes too far and might have to be banned according to some people, but the only groups who should have the actual power to do that, should be the owner of the platform, the users of the platform, and the government, and definitely not some third party that might have completely different interests. The only reason this is possible at all is that some of these payment providers are nearly monopolists. People should have about a dozen payment options to avoid this. Fortunately I do; Steam supports iDeal, which is not controlled by any payment provider. It just goes straight to my bank. If my bank were to try to ban certain types of legitimate payment, customers could simply switch to a different bank to avoid the ban. The only kinds of payment that payment providers should ban, are those involving financial crimes, like money laundering, fraud and corruption.
- randoomed 1y agoi hope that situation (with iDeal) will soon apply to the entirety of europe. Wero rolling out this system to all countries in the EU.
- mcv 1y agoAbsolutely. That's the direction we need to go. And ideally, the rest of the world too. But having this EU-wide, will encourage more webshops outside the EU to also support it.
- throwzasdf 1y ago[dead]
- meroes 1y agoPiracy gained two more pluses in the past few weeks: no age verification and no payment blockage.
- pvtmert 1y agoWhich is why de-monopolization of critical infrastructure such as payments is important for sovereignty. Also which is why, I am happy to see V-pay and SEPA transfers in EU. Especially SEPA-direct transfers, allowing you to be free of CC-processing fees completely as they have been regulated to be free quite well...
- adolph 1y agoIf you don't like CC gatekeeping, you really won't like being dropped from your bank due to suspicious transactions. Financial institutions of various capacities are downstream from their chartering polities which seem very interested in holding sovereignty of geography over individuality.
- antibull 1y ago[dead]
- otikik 1y agoThey are probably drying their tears with stacks of 1000 bucks
- nilslindemann 1y agoIndeed, PayPal is not gone for everyone, luckily. I am from Europe and can still buy games using PayPal, just did. This makes me happy, as I am trying for over two weeks now to buy credits on Open AI, just to be able to translate texts from the FastAPI docs to German. Open AI and others do not support PayPal and not even a prepaid credit card, which my local bank sold me as "works everywhere". It is frustrating.
- bornfreddy 1y agoMaybe N26 / Revolut would work in your case?
- nilslindemann 1y agoThanks for this tip, I will check this out. Edit: Just contacted N26
- nilslindemann 1y agoToo bad, I can not use these, they require a smartphone/an app. But still, thanks for the support.
- Maken 1y agoThose banks also use Visa / Mastercard for payments.
- nilslindemann 1y agoThat is good to hear, that would probably mean that they are accepted by Open AI (Though the Visa Logo is also on my Prepaid card and open AI does not accept it, whatever)
- ronsor 1y agoPayPal is terrible for merchants, quite frankly, and often consumers at times. I don't understand why many people love them so much. There's a good reason many places don't accept PayPal nowadays.
- Martin_Silenus 1y agoYeah, that's right, we play the ideology card, the moral card, but still, we don't want to lose too much money. So no $, €, and so on...
- throw7 1y ago"payment processors insist that if the product is legal, they do not tell vendors what they can or cannot sell" Absolute lies. They require that transactions that may damage the goodwill of the Corporation or reflect negatively on the Marks are not to be submitted to the Interchange System. It is also their own sole discretion what does or doesn't hurt their Brand.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 1y agoI definitely became an advocate for some serious laws regarding payment processors being unable to disagree using some payment systems
- wosined 1y ago> Patricia is the former editor-in-chief of Kotaku Into the trash it goes.