6 ms·

Hire People Who Care (2020)

37 points by suchintan 1y ago

andy99 1y ago
(2020) - I agree, personally I think two issues are 1. taking advantage of people caring to give them below market comp for the work expected of them, and (more subjectively) 2. having some lame and disconnected mission or stated culture. It's easier to care about building something cool than about displaying grit and authenticity or whatever BS some cost center has come up with. Point being, it should be reciprocal. Most (at least many) technical people will always want to do good work and care about the problem they're solving, it's easy to destroy that by expecting them to care only about story points or whatever instead of something meaningful.
alphazard 1y ago
This is a very round-about way of saying that trait conscientiousness predicts employee performance (which it does). Good to see a random guy's Substack coheres with the psychometric literature.
- andy99 1y ago
  Random guy :)
- hinkley 1y ago
  Random guy is CEO of an AI company. I'm finding the cognitive dissonance of both trying to do away with workers and having opinions on what makes a good one to be headache-inducing.
- koakuma-chan 1y ago
  What a word. I understand consciousness but conscientiousness is going too far.
ZunarJ5 1y ago
It would be nice if the employer also cared in return, however in my experience, this is exceptionally rare. I think more than a fair share of us here learned our lessons in investing ourselves rather sharply. It rarely, if ever, pays off for the worker.
- MrDarcy 1y ago
  To be fair, he says in TFA he wants to recruit like a cult. I don’t know many cult leaders who care about their followers, so at least he’s honest if not psychopathic in the way he says he’s going to abuse you before he does so.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > I don’t know many cult leaders who care about their followers My impression is that cult leaders often do care about their followers. The problems rather start when the cult member becomes disobedient - this is when matters become very dirty.
    - aeve890 1y ago
      >My impression is that cult leaders often do care about their followers. Cult leaders care about their followers insofar as they stay submissive ass-kissing sycophants. It's not like they care about the follower's actual well-being.
- paulcole 1y ago
  In practice what would an employer caring look like to you?
  - BobbyJo 1y ago
    What risk/return are they expecting employees to accept? What risk/return are they willing to accept? Any advantage they give themselves over the employee, to me, means they don't care.
    - nickff 1y ago
      I don’t understand what you’re talking about; could you please give some sort of example, or perhaps further elaborate?
      - 1y ago
robocat 1y ago
Odd that the article doesn't address the most obvious criticism: is the CEO just matching the cliche of trying to select for people that overwork for underpay? Wanting to work hard is positively correlated with perseverance and work which inspires. Hard working is good when it's good.
- atoav 1y ago
  A absolute rookie mistake is thinking your exhaustion-level has a linear correlation with the quality of the results. I know people who get suspicious if they haven't exhausted themselves, how can they have done a good job if they are not drained? The truth is that the level of your craft has probably the biggest impact. A beginner can tear themselves apart with stressfull allnighters while doing a job and deliver the result a seasoned pro would have delivered in an afternoon. And if all your employees are doing is stressfull allnighters and damage control they have no time to learn how to do properly and fast. But I get it, the goal is to extract money from their labour, not be their friends or produce quality products.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
oceansky 1y ago
"How many hours were you working a week?" Funnily enough, hearing this question is a huge red flag for me. It signals they value work hours more than quality delivery.
- cosmotic 1y ago
  I thought the same thing. The moment the article equated 5h work day to not giving a shit, they lost me.
ivraatiems 1y ago
I didn't realize "caring" meant "being exploitable" as in "working extra hard for no extra pay." I guess I just don't care.
- hazek112 1y ago
  Unless it's my own company I'd have to be making at least $500k to really "care".
wetpaws 1y ago
[dead]
mr90210 1y ago
Hire professionals. My care is reserved to me, my family and my friends.
- hinkley 1y ago
  Professionalism is a form of caring, though.
- MengerSponge 1y ago
  Professionals care about the quality of their work. They care about what they're mastering and making. Life's too short to not care. It's not the same caring that is reserved for family and friends, though.
rr808 1y ago
Hire people who only do it for the money you'll have to pay them properly. Hire people who care instead.
catigula 1y ago
"It isn't enough for your work to make me rich. You also have to care." We're in a weird place where we can actually read what these people think publicly.
GEBBL 1y ago
Is it common that folks are going into work at 11am and leaving at 4pm? I thought America had a crazy work hour culture
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  It's very uncommon to go in that late. What's much more common is people taking morning meetings from home and then going into the office to complete their day. If you're a 996 grindset blogger, I suspect you're fairly likely to mistake one for the other.
- forty 1y ago
  They work a lot of days (they have very few paid leaves compared to EU in general) but not a lot of hours per day (from what I could see working at French/American companies)
rooftopzen 1y ago
I agree w post, and relevancy from its original date in 2020, but curious on what original intention was to repost from such a long time ago, see link belwo https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=alexw.substack.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=alexw.substack.com
bayindirh 1y ago
That's a bingo card of a blog post: - We are a cult: Check - Align with the mission: Check - Be obsessed: Check - Abandon everything for the obsession: Check - Overwork and get underpaid: Check I mean, I deeply care about what I do, yet I also care deeply care about my work/life balance (slow careers be damned, I gotta live once, and my passion needs cooling down, and my family is equally important to me). I will pull all-nighters if I see them as a necessity, not because you force me to do so, and I'm not shy of doing them. This mentality of the author is deeply flawed. Yes, success requires hard work, but doesn't necessitate a burnout. I'll pass, thanks.
dangoodmanUT 1y ago
A lot of the criticism in this thread sounds like it’s coming from people who don’t give a shit and just want a paycheck Some people are motivated by what they produce at work, not their compensation The benefit of this being from 2020 is we can see he was right, he built a colossal company at breakneck speed
- DonsDiscountGas 1y ago
  Are you looking for a job by any chance? I promise you'll have the opportunity to produce great things for extremely mediocre compensation. That's what you want, right?
  - koakuma-chan 1y ago
    Are you hiring? I can work for minimum wage.
- NegativeK 1y ago
  I give a shit, want a paycheck, _and_ want a life outside of work. It's completely possible to want fair hours while also caring. And, like many commenters, I'm frustrated with employers that want more than a third of my waking existence.
lvl155 1y ago
It’s hard to find people with talent period let alone people willing to take ownership without reciprocal financial incentives. In my 20s, I was this guy. I worked hard and just assumed it will work out in the end. Boy oh boy was I wrong.
forty 1y ago
Then maybe build a cooperative, where all employees are effectively co-owning the company? Then you can expect everyone to care as much as you do. Otherwise it doesn't seem to be a fair thing to expect.
aleph_minus_one 1y ago
I rather have the impression that many bosses/companies actively avoid people who do care: this kind of people is often rather inconvenient to manage, since because of the fact that they do care, they are very willing to fight (also or even particular to superiors) for their vision. Thus, hiring people who do care requires very particular kinds of bosses who can accept/handle people who care. Companies who do not have those are in my opinion often better served with people who don't give a fuck, but hardly ever (because they don't really consider it to be worth their time) actively disagree with orders from above. If the description of such people sounds passive-aggressive to you, I don't disagree: such people sometimes are this way. So, it might actually (surprisingly) make sense for companies to scout for passive-aggressive people. :-)
hazek112 1y ago
The first step to hiring people who care is paying them enough that they have a reason to care. Frankly, during my time at Amazon I was never really that worried about a service going down. Wasn't paid enough to lose sleep over someone else's problem. Founders care because they have the most skin in the game - unless it's for a family or a huge ego I don't find it surprising when employees don't care outside of 40hrs a week. I even support that line of thinking.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
peer2pay 1y ago
I’ve never agreed with a title and then disagreed with the content more than this article. Jokes on you, I care a lot about my work and can still get it done in 5 hours a day.
latchkey 1y ago
I read through all the comments and it is amazing that nobody is mentioning the fact that the reason why this 2020 post is coming up now is because of this: Scale recently laid off 200 full-time employees and terminated 500 contractor positions. The CEO, author of the post, went to work for Meta. https://scale.com/blog/scale-ai-announces-next-phase-of-company-evolution https://scale.com/blog/scale-ai-announces-next-phase-of-comp...
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  I agree that this information is highly interesting and relevant considering the content of the article. On the other hand, I can easily imagine why nobody mentioned this fact befor you did: only few people read startup gossip.
  - latchkey 1y ago
    > only few people read startup gossip Numbers disagree: 485 comments, 470 points. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44268197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44268197
magicmicah85 1y ago
Comments disabled. 2.7 rating on Glassdoor for work/life balance at Scale. I’m sure it’s nothing. As to the substance of the article, I agree with the title, but the line of interview questions used is trying to answer “how many hours can we squeeze out of you?”. Being concerned your company will become a credential rather than a cult? I’m not here to drink the Kool-Aid, I’m here to do the work and then do the other things I care about outside of work.
Paracompact 1y ago
> In no world can you be working 5 hours a day and be giving a shit. "Four hours of creative work a day is about the limit for a mathematician." ~~ Henri Poincaré. https://nesslabs.com/how-much-work-is-enough-work https://nesslabs.com/how-much-work-is-enough-work
- bayindirh 1y ago
  During my Ph.D., I worked very intensely with the help of a Pomodoro timer. After 4 to 5 hours of productive work (8-10 pomodoros), my brain just shut down, but I did a ton of work during that time. Human body has its real limits. Respecting your body is essential for living a healthy life.
  - misterdee 1y ago
    This is me too. But if I add a 20-30 min powernap and some coffee, I can get another 4 pomodoros in.
cam_l 1y ago
In a somewhat misguided defence of the OP, he actually makes two points. Giving a shit about your work is the second point. Without any other comments suggesting the alternative, I assume this is second in order of importance. And as there are only two points I would take that to mean the second point is the least important. His first point is to give a shit about the company. This being the most important point probably explains the accusations of late payments and wage theft from former employees and contractors against the company. They just weren't putting the company first! As an aside, I have been thinking of this in relation to the 3 laws, as in a sense, executives see workers as robots, and I think the 3 laws mesh quite nicely with corporate directives. 1) A robot (employee) may not injure the company or allow the company to come to harm; 2) A robot must obey their manager unless it conflicts with the First Law; 3) A robot must protect its own existence (in the company) as long as it does not conflict with the First or Second Law. The work doesn't really come into to it, unless it is a subset of the 3rd law.
thedevilslawyer 1y ago
I'll take the opposite side of the comments and the body of cynical people here. It absolutely matters to care about the problem you're solving. A team of people with a skill level of X that cares about a problem will be better in both performance and in general culture and being around than a team with a skill level of 2X that consists of mercenaries. I learned it the hard way. When I was asked to set up a team of 14-16 engineers, I first went the latter way. The interviewing was difficult and the bar was higher, but the people who were there were focused on what they could get out of the role. Circumstances led to a reset, and the second time around, I built a team that optimized for caring about the problem. I started with the two people I liked working with in the initial group because they liked the problem statement. I had to lower the computer science performance bar to build the team to size. I also had a budget left over for other purposes, as we didn't need to pay for 2X performance, and the team was heavier with younger folks. We delivered the goals in three months. More importantly, working with people who have a shared purpose, rather than "getting mine," is just a better place to be. I had to spend time skilling up some people, but they did it in a month! Since then, I've always optimized for being around "mission-driven" people, rather than "mercenaries." Sometimes you need that 5X skill set, in which case a limited-time contractual helper is probably better, but the team has a soul.
sam_lowry_ 1y ago
I actually do care. I am also emotionally involved. Bad code makes me feel bad, I am ecstatic about good code. I am deeply saddened when I see people making the same mistakes over and over again. This attitude negatively impacted my career on more than one occasion. I am now doing a relatively low-pay work for the public services. My job is cleaning the Augean stables of decades-old Java code, but I feel better than shitting crappy code for the unicorn that none needs in the industry that should not exist.

37 points by suchintan 1y ago

(2020) - I agree, personally I think two issues are 1. taking advantage of people caring to give them below market comp for the work expected of them, and (more subjectively) 2. having some lame and disconnected mission or stated culture. It's easier to care about building something cool than about displaying grit and authenticity or whatever BS some cost center has come up with. Point being, it should be reciprocal. Most (at least many) technical people will always want to do good work and care about the problem they're solving, it's easy to destroy that by expecting them to care only about story points or whatever instead of something meaningful.

alphazard 1y ago

This is a very round-about way of saying that trait conscientiousness predicts employee performance (which it does). Good to see a random guy's Substack coheres with the psychometric literature.

andy99 1y ago
Random guy :)
hinkley 1y ago
Random guy is CEO of an AI company. I'm finding the cognitive dissonance of both trying to do away with workers and having opinions on what makes a good one to be headache-inducing.
koakuma-chan 1y ago
What a word. I understand consciousness but conscientiousness is going too far.

ZunarJ5 1y ago

It would be nice if the employer also cared in return, however in my experience, this is exceptionally rare. I think more than a fair share of us here learned our lessons in investing ourselves rather sharply. It rarely, if ever, pays off for the worker.

MrDarcy 1y ago
To be fair, he says in TFA he wants to recruit like a cult. I don’t know many cult leaders who care about their followers, so at least he’s honest if not psychopathic in the way he says he’s going to abuse you before he does so.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > I don’t know many cult leaders who care about their followers My impression is that cult leaders often do care about their followers. The problems rather start when the cult member becomes disobedient - this is when matters become very dirty.
  - aeve890 1y ago
    >My impression is that cult leaders often do care about their followers. Cult leaders care about their followers insofar as they stay submissive ass-kissing sycophants. It's not like they care about the follower's actual well-being.
paulcole 1y ago
In practice what would an employer caring look like to you?
- BobbyJo 1y ago
  What risk/return are they expecting employees to accept? What risk/return are they willing to accept? Any advantage they give themselves over the employee, to me, means they don't care.
  - nickff 1y ago
    I don’t understand what you’re talking about; could you please give some sort of example, or perhaps further elaborate?
    - 1y ago

robocat 1y ago

Odd that the article doesn't address the most obvious criticism: is the CEO just matching the cliche of trying to select for people that overwork for underpay? Wanting to work hard is positively correlated with perseverance and work which inspires. Hard working is good when it's good.

atoav 1y ago
A absolute rookie mistake is thinking your exhaustion-level has a linear correlation with the quality of the results. I know people who get suspicious if they haven't exhausted themselves, how can they have done a good job if they are not drained? The truth is that the level of your craft has probably the biggest impact. A beginner can tear themselves apart with stressfull allnighters while doing a job and deliver the result a seasoned pro would have delivered in an afternoon. And if all your employees are doing is stressfull allnighters and damage control they have no time to learn how to do properly and fast. But I get it, the goal is to extract money from their labour, not be their friends or produce quality products.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

oceansky 1y ago

"How many hours were you working a week?" Funnily enough, hearing this question is a huge red flag for me. It signals they value work hours more than quality delivery.

cosmotic 1y ago
I thought the same thing. The moment the article equated 5h work day to not giving a shit, they lost me.

ivraatiems 1y ago

I didn't realize "caring" meant "being exploitable" as in "working extra hard for no extra pay." I guess I just don't care.

hazek112 1y ago
Unless it's my own company I'd have to be making at least $500k to really "care".

wetpaws 1y ago

[dead]

mr90210 1y ago

Hire professionals. My care is reserved to me, my family and my friends.

hinkley 1y ago
Professionalism is a form of caring, though.
MengerSponge 1y ago
Professionals care about the quality of their work. They care about what they're mastering and making. Life's too short to not care. It's not the same caring that is reserved for family and friends, though.

rr808 1y ago

Hire people who only do it for the money you'll have to pay them properly. Hire people who care instead.

catigula 1y ago

"It isn't enough for your work to make me rich. You also have to care." We're in a weird place where we can actually read what these people think publicly.

GEBBL 1y ago

Is it common that folks are going into work at 11am and leaving at 4pm? I thought America had a crazy work hour culture

AlotOfReading 1y ago
It's very uncommon to go in that late. What's much more common is people taking morning meetings from home and then going into the office to complete their day. If you're a 996 grindset blogger, I suspect you're fairly likely to mistake one for the other.
forty 1y ago
They work a lot of days (they have very few paid leaves compared to EU in general) but not a lot of hours per day (from what I could see working at French/American companies)

rooftopzen 1y ago

I agree w post, and relevancy from its original date in 2020, but curious on what original intention was to repost from such a long time ago, see link belwo https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=alexw.substack.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=alexw.substack.com

bayindirh 1y ago

That's a bingo card of a blog post: - We are a cult: Check - Align with the mission: Check - Be obsessed: Check - Abandon everything for the obsession: Check - Overwork and get underpaid: Check I mean, I deeply care about what I do, yet I also care deeply care about my work/life balance (slow careers be damned, I gotta live once, and my passion needs cooling down, and my family is equally important to me). I will pull all-nighters if I see them as a necessity, not because you force me to do so, and I'm not shy of doing them. This mentality of the author is deeply flawed. Yes, success requires hard work, but doesn't necessitate a burnout. I'll pass, thanks.

dangoodmanUT 1y ago

A lot of the criticism in this thread sounds like it’s coming from people who don’t give a shit and just want a paycheck Some people are motivated by what they produce at work, not their compensation The benefit of this being from 2020 is we can see he was right, he built a colossal company at breakneck speed

DonsDiscountGas 1y ago
Are you looking for a job by any chance? I promise you'll have the opportunity to produce great things for extremely mediocre compensation. That's what you want, right?
- koakuma-chan 1y ago
  Are you hiring? I can work for minimum wage.
NegativeK 1y ago
I give a shit, want a paycheck, _and_ want a life outside of work. It's completely possible to want fair hours while also caring. And, like many commenters, I'm frustrated with employers that want more than a third of my waking existence.

lvl155 1y ago

It’s hard to find people with talent period let alone people willing to take ownership without reciprocal financial incentives. In my 20s, I was this guy. I worked hard and just assumed it will work out in the end. Boy oh boy was I wrong.

forty 1y ago

Then maybe build a cooperative, where all employees are effectively co-owning the company? Then you can expect everyone to care as much as you do. Otherwise it doesn't seem to be a fair thing to expect.

aleph_minus_one 1y ago

I rather have the impression that many bosses/companies actively avoid people who do care: this kind of people is often rather inconvenient to manage, since because of the fact that they do care, they are very willing to fight (also or even particular to superiors) for their vision. Thus, hiring people who do care requires very particular kinds of bosses who can accept/handle people who care. Companies who do not have those are in my opinion often better served with people who don't give a fuck, but hardly ever (because they don't really consider it to be worth their time) actively disagree with orders from above. If the description of such people sounds passive-aggressive to you, I don't disagree: such people sometimes are this way. So, it might actually (surprisingly) make sense for companies to scout for passive-aggressive people. :-)

hazek112 1y ago

The first step to hiring people who care is paying them enough that they have a reason to care. Frankly, during my time at Amazon I was never really that worried about a service going down. Wasn't paid enough to lose sleep over someone else's problem. Founders care because they have the most skin in the game - unless it's for a family or a huge ego I don't find it surprising when employees don't care outside of 40hrs a week. I even support that line of thinking.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

peer2pay 1y ago

I’ve never agreed with a title and then disagreed with the content more than this article. Jokes on you, I care a lot about my work and can still get it done in 5 hours a day.

latchkey 1y ago

I read through all the comments and it is amazing that nobody is mentioning the fact that the reason why this 2020 post is coming up now is because of this: Scale recently laid off 200 full-time employees and terminated 500 contractor positions. The CEO, author of the post, went to work for Meta. https://scale.com/blog/scale-ai-announces-next-phase-of-company-evolution https://scale.com/blog/scale-ai-announces-next-phase-of-comp...

aleph_minus_one 1y ago
I agree that this information is highly interesting and relevant considering the content of the article. On the other hand, I can easily imagine why nobody mentioned this fact befor you did: only few people read startup gossip.
- latchkey 1y ago
  > only few people read startup gossip Numbers disagree: 485 comments, 470 points. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44268197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44268197

magicmicah85 1y ago

Comments disabled. 2.7 rating on Glassdoor for work/life balance at Scale. I’m sure it’s nothing. As to the substance of the article, I agree with the title, but the line of interview questions used is trying to answer “how many hours can we squeeze out of you?”. Being concerned your company will become a credential rather than a cult? I’m not here to drink the Kool-Aid, I’m here to do the work and then do the other things I care about outside of work.

Paracompact 1y ago

> In no world can you be working 5 hours a day and be giving a shit. "Four hours of creative work a day is about the limit for a mathematician." ~~ Henri Poincaré. https://nesslabs.com/how-much-work-is-enough-work https://nesslabs.com/how-much-work-is-enough-work

bayindirh 1y ago
During my Ph.D., I worked very intensely with the help of a Pomodoro timer. After 4 to 5 hours of productive work (8-10 pomodoros), my brain just shut down, but I did a ton of work during that time. Human body has its real limits. Respecting your body is essential for living a healthy life.
- misterdee 1y ago
  This is me too. But if I add a 20-30 min powernap and some coffee, I can get another 4 pomodoros in.

cam_l 1y ago

In a somewhat misguided defence of the OP, he actually makes two points. Giving a shit about your work is the second point. Without any other comments suggesting the alternative, I assume this is second in order of importance. And as there are only two points I would take that to mean the second point is the least important. His first point is to give a shit about the company. This being the most important point probably explains the accusations of late payments and wage theft from former employees and contractors against the company. They just weren't putting the company first! As an aside, I have been thinking of this in relation to the 3 laws, as in a sense, executives see workers as robots, and I think the 3 laws mesh quite nicely with corporate directives. 1) A robot (employee) may not injure the company or allow the company to come to harm; 2) A robot must obey their manager unless it conflicts with the First Law; 3) A robot must protect its own existence (in the company) as long as it does not conflict with the First or Second Law. The work doesn't really come into to it, unless it is a subset of the 3rd law.

thedevilslawyer 1y ago

I'll take the opposite side of the comments and the body of cynical people here. It absolutely matters to care about the problem you're solving. A team of people with a skill level of X that cares about a problem will be better in both performance and in general culture and being around than a team with a skill level of 2X that consists of mercenaries. I learned it the hard way. When I was asked to set up a team of 14-16 engineers, I first went the latter way. The interviewing was difficult and the bar was higher, but the people who were there were focused on what they could get out of the role. Circumstances led to a reset, and the second time around, I built a team that optimized for caring about the problem. I started with the two people I liked working with in the initial group because they liked the problem statement. I had to lower the computer science performance bar to build the team to size. I also had a budget left over for other purposes, as we didn't need to pay for 2X performance, and the team was heavier with younger folks. We delivered the goals in three months. More importantly, working with people who have a shared purpose, rather than "getting mine," is just a better place to be. I had to spend time skilling up some people, but they did it in a month! Since then, I've always optimized for being around "mission-driven" people, rather than "mercenaries." Sometimes you need that 5X skill set, in which case a limited-time contractual helper is probably better, but the team has a soul.

sam_lowry_ 1y ago

I actually do care. I am also emotionally involved. Bad code makes me feel bad, I am ecstatic about good code. I am deeply saddened when I see people making the same mistakes over and over again. This attitude negatively impacted my career on more than one occasion. I am now doing a relatively low-pay work for the public services. My job is cleaning the Augean stables of decades-old Java code, but I feel better than shitting crappy code for the unicorn that none needs in the industry that should not exist.