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I don’t like this article. It mixes two things together: 1. Schools running and monitoring their own communication platforms. This seems fine. 2. The US gover
by tyleo 1y ago
I don’t like this article. It mixes two things together:
1. Schools running and monitoring their own communication platforms. This seems fine.
2. The US government monitoring private communication platforms like Snapchat and arresting kids on school grounds. This seems bad.
The way it’s written though mixes these together and makes it look like schools are monitoring the private communication of students. I think it’s fine for schools to monitor there own platforms but weird for the government to monitor all platforms haphazardly.
- abtinf 1y agoYou have no problem with the opening example in the article?
- tyleo 1y agoI have a problem with the degree of punishment but not that the student was punished. A student said, “on Thursday we kill all the Mexico’s,” on a schools private communication platform. The school should correct that behavior. Unfortunately they involved law enforcement. Thats where I see the problem. A better solution would be detention and informing the parents.
- kayodelycaon 1y agoWhen I was a kid, detention over a stupid joke would have been an extreme overreaction and would result in the teacher being pulled into the principal’s office, not the kid.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> detention over a stupid joke When you were a kid gun laws were stricter.
- giantg2 1y agoNot exactly true. You don't know how old the person is nor their jurisdiction. Some states have fewer laws, others have more. At the federal level, there are more laws and rules than there were in the 60s or 70s (overall more than at any prior time). And of course enforcement varies. I remember many people coming to school with guns in their cars during hunting season even though it's not legal.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> You don't know how old the person is nor their jurisdiction One can impute it from the content assuming it’s relevant, i.e. in America.
- giantg2 1y agoGun laws vary dramtically by state. If we are only looking at the federal level, then there has been no substantial reduction.
- kasey_junk 1y agoThere was a federal assault weapons ban from 1994 to 2004.
- giantg2 1y agoYes, and there have been additional law and rules changes since then (NICS, trusts, etc). Thus the number of laws and rules are not substantially lower than in the recent past.
- kasey_junk 1y agoAccess to assault weapons is substantially easier now than it was in 1996. There maybe the same number of laws or whatever but in real terms access is easier now than then.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Unfortunately they involved law enforcement. Thats where I see the problem Eh, terminal violence was potentially threatened. Calling the cops seems fine if no teacher or administrator can vouch for the kid. (Particularly if, as is true in this case, the law requires “any threat of mass violence against a school to be reported immediately to law enforcement.”) To the extent someone fucked up, it’s the cops who allegedly caused the 13-year old to be “interrogated, strip-searched and spent the night in a jail cell.”
- soulofmischief 1y agoPolice are a volatile, uncontrollable solution for anything other than white collar crime. If you introduce police into a situation where your life ot belongings aren't in immediate danger, you should be prepared for them to make someone miserable or hurt someone and you're culpable if they do.
- 1718627440 1y agoPolice exists to deescalate conflicts and prevent harm. If they don't you should file a disciplinary complaint.
- Hizonner 1y ago> Police exists to deescalate conflicts and prevent harm. Somebody should tell them that. > If they don't you should file a disciplinary complaint. ... which will be ignored. They may or may not laugh in your face. I wish I lived in your dream world.
- 1718627440 1y agoThey regularly get education on how to deescalate. At least the media reports that. Also police officers get prosecuted for misconduct or promotion of right-wing ideology. Not every country has a weird dysfunctional police.
- worldsayshi 1y ago> Unfortunately they involved law enforcement Sounds like they could've reasoned that they face the least chance for liability if they pushed the responsibility to law enforcement.
- chasd00 1y agoA threat like that has to be reported to the authorities. In 99.9% of cases it’s nothing but you never know. You can’t threaten the president without getting investigated, you can’t threaten mass murder at school without getting investigated.
- FpUser 1y agoInvestigation is ok given how much shooting happens. Punishment however is way out of proportion. It was a bad joke. Does not deserve any real punishment except maybe couple of hours in a class that explains why jokes like this are bad.
- giantg2 1y agoInappropriate comments or jokes could easily be handled with parent-teacher intervention and some detention. If it's possibly credible, then reporting it to the police to kick off an investigation is good. It seems that nobody really used their brain in the example given - everyone just trusted some automated system's determination instead of making their own.
- potato3732842 1y ago>seems that nobody really used their brain in the example given Brain users get jaded and a) stop b) seek alternate employment. Schools don't just crush kids.
- giantg2 1y ago"A threat like that has to be reported to the authorities." This forced reporting necessarily creates false reports. Under the law, things like terrorist threats are required to be credible or incite panic. Reporting things that aren't credible is arguably a violation of law under any other context, yet they choose to ignore that with these mandatory reporting laws. Basically it creates a situation where nobody is allowed to use their brain - automated conveyer to the criminal system.
- kayodelycaon 1y agoSchools have already monitored student’s social media outside of school and punished them for breaking rules outside of the school. How long before they use AI to do that?
- Permit 1y agoAI has nothing to do with this. It’s trivial to build a keyword based system to detect someone threatening/joking that they will kill all the Mexicans at their school. AI hype is at play here as well, not only in the breathless press releases from AI companies.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- chasd00 1y agoI don’t believe a school has a right to monitor students outside of school but getting wind of a mass murder threat and turning it over to the authorities is the right thing to do.
- giantg2 1y ago"1. Schools running and monitoring their own communication platforms. This seems fine. 2. The US government monitoring private communication platforms like Snapchat and arresting kids on school grounds. This seems bad." Public schools are government.
- AnimalMuppet 1y agoPublic schools are not the US government. They're usually city or county.
- giantg2 1y agoThere are many federal laws and policies enforced in the schools. The police arresting kids on school grounds are also usually state or local.
- 1718627440 1y agoPublic schools get money from the government. That doesn't mean they're are the private arm of the government.
- giantg2 1y agoPublic schools are run by officials elected in public municipal elections. How is that not government?
- chasd00 1y agoUS schools have way too much authority over children. A student can goto a party on Saturday night and get a ticket for MIP or some other infraction and then face punishment at school in addition to the fine. US schools are quasi authoritarian regimes for teenagers. I don’t believe that is right at all.
- cogogo 1y agoI mostly agree with you. But the same is true with your employer in the US. You do something stupid outside of work like an OUI and there will likely be consequences with employment - either current or future. Not terrible to internalize that early when the consequences are relatively forgettable.
- Hizonner 1y agoYou are not required by law to subject yourself to your employer, or to any employer.
- kelseyfrog 1y agoUnfortunately, that doesn't have any practical relevance. Structural coercion is still coercion.
- potato3732842 1y agoYou are generalizing way too hard to white collar employment.
- cogogo 1y agoPlenty of blue collar jobs where you could get fired or couldn't get hired because of behavior outside work like an OUI. Anything requiring a CDL, security, some retail to name a few.
- pavel_lishin 1y ago> A student can goto a party on Saturday night and get a ticket for MIP or some other infraction and then face punishment at school in addition to the fine. I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but I am saying that this has never happened to me or anyone I know.
- abeppu 1y agoI think 1. is still pretty bad. It's sounds like students are often obligated to use school-issued accounts for their own school work, and contents are searched and reviewed by the vendor's staff before either the student or the school are notified, and without any prior reason for individual suspicion -- that _does_ seem like a 4th amendment issue. But also, is the school creating a blindspot for itself where it has _less_ information than if these systems were not in place? From one of the court documents linked in the article: > The District and Gaggle—acting at the District’s behest—do not merely infringe students’ Fourth and First Amendment rights—they do so in a way that actively undermines the very safety concerns the District claims to address. Acting with the District’s knowledge, Gaggle automatically and unilaterally seizes student materials containing an undisclosed list of “trigger words” or phrases, without regard to context. This sweeping censorship extends to all student documents and content within the Google Workspace/Suite on District platforms. As a result, when students use their school-issued accounts to seek help or report concerns—particularly about mental health—Gaggle frequently intercepts and seizes those communications before they can reach their intended recipients, including teachers, counselors, and even parents. Such censorship denies some students the help they may need, contrary to Defendants’ articulated purpose for using Gaggle. ... i.e. the school is inadvertently quashing students attempts to ask for help or report problems > When The Budget’s editor-in-chief investigated via requests under the Kansas Open Records Act why Gaggle continued to operate in violation of the purported exemption for student journalism, the findings responsive to her requests were, ironically, suppressed—apparently unbeknownst to the District officials tasked with responding to the requests—by Gaggle. Like the fox guarding the henhouse, Gaggle prevents parties from learning about how and when it operates.The District was made aware of Gaggle’s actions with respect to student journalists, but took no action to eliminate the problem. ... i.e. the school is generally unaware when it is itself silenced by its "safety management" software, even when this brings it out of compliance with legal requirements. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/26040279-lawrence-board-of-education-gaggle-complaint/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/26040279-lawrence-bo...
- welcome_dragon 1y agoI live in and my wife works for the school district mentioned here. I think most of us can agree that if kids are using Chromebooks or something provided by the school district they should be held accountable (similar to how if I say something awful in a work chat or email I'll be held accountable. It is the overreach like you said that is the problem. People thinking that we "must protect the children" at all costs is the problem. The specific district here has a "no bullying" agenda which, as a father formerly with kids in the district, is not a thing. But they promote it and they are the top performing schools in the state so whatever they can do to pander to parents is what they will do. There's also a large Protestant population here with mega maga churches, and moms against liberty (real name: Moms for Liberty, but I like to call a spade a spade) is heavily enmeshed in the school system. Whatever the parents say goes, and this is just another example. I always told my kids: I don't care who is asking - a teacher or the police. The answer to "show us your phone" is always "you need to call my parents". I am so glad my kids are no longer in the school system here. Many of my friends are teachers, lots in this district, and I have to say the state of education has really gone backwards in general and specifically here