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Just knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. Comac still sources its jet engines from Pratt and Whitney for instance, despite many years of tr
by tjpnz 1y ago
Just knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. Comac still sources its jet engines from Pratt and Whitney for instance, despite many years of trying no local manufacturer has been able to build them to the same spec.
- Cyph0n 1y agoAre P&W and Rolls Royce the only companies in the world capable of manufacturing high-end jet engines end-to-end?
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoNo, but they provide the best efficiency/performance for the buck. China can produce its own jet turbines, but they have to trade off performance or longevity to do it.
- Cyph0n 1y agoInteresting. Thanks.
- prussian 1y agoDon't forget GE Aerospace. It gets a bit weirder too since you have joint ventures like CFM and Engine Alliance.
- a2tech 1y agoThey don't make them end to end either. Their jet engines are made up of parts supplied by thousands of suppliers.
- Cyph0n 1y agoObviously, but I would imagine that most of the “magic” isn’t in the supplied components, but in the finished product. Otherwise reproduction would be easier.
- baggachipz 1y agoOr for analogy, following a recipe doesn't make you a good cook.
- chii 1y agoBut it also depends on how precise the recipe is - if it's described down to the exact movements the cook needs to do, which may be replicated via a machine...
- baggachipz 1y agoNo recipe accounts for ambient temperature/humidity, very few for altitude differences, etc. etc. It still takes knowledgable tweaks to get just right.
- moralestapia 1y agoSuch recipe could exist.
- adolph 1y agoAt the end of the day, the map won't ever be the territory. Typically the properties that makes something successful are those which cannot be specified. If it were otherwise and those qualities could be specified in a reproducible manner, that thing would not be observably successful.
- kergonath 1y agoThey exist in the industry, where a small variation of one parameter could affect tons of products. Same for individual restaurants, cooks know how to set up their equipment. For amateur cooks at home it does not matter. They do not need that level of consistency, and it would get quite expensive.
- reaperducer 1y agoOr for analogy, following a recipe doesn't make you a good cook. Following a recipe can you close enough for thousands of Door Dash customers to put the original restaurant out of business.
- mitjam 1y agoA relative of mine worked at a medical devices company (brain sensors). She told me how small intricacies of the manufacturing process were critical to reach good enough yield or functioning devices, at all. The critical process steps were closely guarded and only a handful employees knew how to do them. The devil is often in the details - and the moat, too.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- prussian 1y agoWhich Comac? I thought they all used GE (CFM for Comac 919) or Russian/Chinese sourced engines.
- ta20240528 1y agoThat's the OP's point: COMAC is using CFM LEAP 1-C engines on the C919. To be fair, they have taken the effort to build the CJ 1000A engine - which is on wing testing should the tangerine fellow cut them off. But its Plan B at best.
- Workaccount2 1y agoThe product I oversee at my job is something that can only be built by people who are intimately aware of the process and have a strong understanding of the underlying engineering. We could hand the full project file to a competitor and they almost certainly would not be able to build functional units. The failure points are fractal, so you need a strong intuition about what part you are installing, what qualities an ideal part has, what qualities the one in your hand has, how you might install it differently because of those qualities, and/or how you might change a later process to accommodate it. Or if the part should just be junked. The process is fraught with seemingly good intuitions that will ultimately lead you to failure as well. These units also cannot be reworked, reused, or repaired, so any mistake before finalizing the build junks the entire thing. For extremely low-entropy products, mother nature is incredibly unforgiving.
- wyre 1y agoWhat product is it?
- tracker1 1y agoThat's not a high bar... Boeing can't seem to reliably manufacture their own designs.
- K0balt 1y agoThis is a bigger issue than most people appreciate, and a huge problem for the USA. There is a specialised trade known as tool and die maker, or just die maker (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker) that is fundamental to a country’s ability to create industrial capacity. So far, no automation tool has been able to replace their expertise. Without die makers, you can’t build tools that make things, you can’t build factories, and mass production in general is dependent on their skillset. Right now, the USA only has 50k die makers, and the average age of a die maker, including apprentices, is 54. The average age of a master die maker is 73, and the average age of a journeyman is 62. A master die maker can teach about 5 apprentices to the journey man level in a work environment, after 2+ years of basic engineering school, in about 5-7 years. A journeyman may generally considered a master after 10-20 years of experience, depending on the nature of their experience. We don’t have enough die makers to rebuild the industrial capacity of the USA, and we can’t teach the amount we need in less than 5-7decades without some kind of major change in the process of doing so. And since more than half of the master die makers are months from retirement or death, we are in an extremely precarious position as a viable industrial power. This is why it is extremely difficult to build anything physical in the USA using only USA sourced parts and materials. It’s almost impossible to even get a decent variety of screws and fasteners made here in the USA, and we can’t easy build the machines to make screws because of the critical shortage of master die makers. If we are to maintain the ability to build and maintain our machines, weapons, and critical infrastructure without being completely dependent on imported tools, supplies, and knowledge, we will have to reinvent the industrial process using automation or something similar to compensate for our foolish exportation and devaluation of strategic skills and capabilities.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoWe don’t have sensors that can grok the full building process that deep human experts have.
- throw0101c 1y ago> Just knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. See perhaps: > Tacit knowledge or implicit knowledge is knowledge that is difficult to extract or articulate—as opposed to conceptualized, formalized, codified, or explicit knowledge—and is therefore more difficult to convey to others through verbalization or writing. Examples of this include individual wisdom, experience, insight, motor skill, and intuition.[1] An example of "explicit" information that can be recorded, conveyed, and understood by the recipient is the knowledge that London is in the United Kingdom. Speaking a language, riding a bicycle, kneading dough, playing an instrument, or designing and operating sophisticated machinery, on the other hand, all require a variety of knowledge that is difficult or impossible to transfer to other people and is not always known "explicitly," even by skilled practitioners. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_knowledge
- varispeed 1y agoBuilding even basic things is difficult. Friend of mine tried like dozen companies from around the world to manufacture very basic milled aluminium part. None of them could make it. Only one company could make 1 or 2 right out of 100.
- helij 1y agoSorry, but I find that hard to believe. Part certainly wasn't very basic.
- varispeed 1y agoSlab of aluminium milled to a flat triangular-ish shape about 10mm thick, then inside hollowed out to half depth and 8 counter-sunk holes non-tapped. Common issues: - item is not flat - nicks and dents on the edges - non uniform depth of the counter-sunk holes - holes in incorrect locations - unapproved changes to design - scratches - pores (poor material quality) - incomplete milling Then parts have to be hard anodised and sand blasted. - Sand blasting uneven - Sharp edges remaining - Streaks - Contamination - Exposed bare metal (it is only acceptable in the holes that could be used for hanging) Companies also have virtually non existent QA. You can list them things that will cause rejection and they send it anyway. One company told him after sending a batch that was complete carnage "We can give you $100 coupon for next order!" he insisted on rework. So they sent again, even worse.
- _DeadFred_ 1y agoI can't remember but I think Lance Air or Epic got split in a sale and a company bought the type design/blueprints but ran into issues actually manufacturing from them.