7 ms·

We received a presentation/demo of their products when I worked in the gov (not the US gov. though) a couple of years ago. They seemed, okay? I mean nothing se

We received a presentation/demo of their products when I worked in the gov (not the US gov. though) a couple of years ago. They seemed, okay? I mean nothing seemed mind-blowing. I worked on surveillance in a specific sector, where interagency collaboration is important. Hence why Palantir pitched their tools. I'm not sure how they've managed to blow up like that. Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? EDIT: Basically their pitch was that if agency A and B (and C, D, etc.) connected their data sources to the tool (I think it was Gotham), then identifying and catching threat actors would be much easier, and that their software would streamline this.

jxf 1y ago
> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? It's a little bit of being good at sales but it's also very much that the integrations with their tools and platforms are synergistic to a large degree.
chpatrick 1y ago
I've heard people say it's basically SAP with some spooky mystique for marketing.
- lolive 1y ago
  Wake me up when SAP provides productivity tools of the level of PalantirFoundry’s Pipeline Builder, Ontology Manager, Data Lineage and Workshop.
  - chpatrick 1y ago
    I'm really glad I don't know what any of those things are.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - lolive 1y ago
      They are the tools why PalantirFoundry is worth every penny [not entirely true note: PalantirFoundry is a lowCode/noCode stack on top of a Spark cluster] Pipeline Builder : https://youtu.be/WIQA7u1tbsY?si=iG-N9xHpUPPVAqDX https://youtu.be/WIQA7u1tbsY?si=iG-N9xHpUPPVAqDX OntologyManager: https://youtu.be/SOW0IA_I0bk?si=u5eha0o-yrn4pHvu https://youtu.be/SOW0IA_I0bk?si=u5eha0o-yrn4pHvu Workshop: https://youtu.be/Uh0zpMUR6wY?si=BClTTbch70ZolRCb https://youtu.be/Uh0zpMUR6wY?si=BClTTbch70ZolRCb
      - belter 1y ago
        I am sorry but these look like very basic ETL/UI Dashboard tools. Is this all they got?
        lolive 1y ago
        I would love to know an alternative to that superbly integrated stack . [be aware that none of those tools require coding knowledge, nor any DB administration, nor scalability consideration. But for me the most important part is that the data workflow is not dataFrame driven, but semantic entity/relationship driven. Think of that as if you had an ORM magically wrapping your Spark cluster, and make it look like a graph database. Oh, and the sync with ElaticSearch is built-in for a no-brainer semantic search feature on your objects]
        belter 1y ago
        > but semantic entity/relationship driven This is marketing speak who means nothing. What do you mean? Something like this?: https://www.ibm.com/products/information-governance-catalog https://www.ibm.com/products/information-governance-catalog
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        lolive 1y ago
        Your data in Foundry are available both as tabular content and as a graph at the same time. Here is a tool to visually explore your graph: https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/vertex/graphs-explore https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/vertex/graphs-explore And here is the search engine to search for your objects (free-text and/or types): https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/object-explorer/getting-started/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/object-explorer/gettin... And here is the tool to manage the ontology (the types and relationships of the graph, plus the mapping of the graph to the tabular datasets): https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/ontology-manager/overview/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/ontology-manager/overv... The UI designer based on the graph data is called Workshop: https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/workshop/overview/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/workshop/overview/ I still have to find a stack where this duality is as integrated as in Foundry.
    - strogonoff 1y ago
      Ontologies, semantic relationships, data pipelines, data provenance (I suppose a.k.a. lineage), etc. are all things that quickly become familiar to anyone working on knowledge management. All of these things are pretty fascinating, as they concern the meta of the meta; the nature of knowledge itself; how to slice the ineffable reality into parts and how to communicate complex things to people. Many software engineers are happy not knowing any of those terms. This perceived boredom is part of the reason why companies, some indeed with questionable ethics, like Palantir (is there even more than one in this space?) have very little competition and are making big bucks on big contracts (and only stand to make more once ML becomes less chaotic and more structured).
      - lolive 1y ago
        I definitely agree. Two comments here: - the real power of Foundry is that it is REALLY scalable. Palantir is selling all the knowledge management+data management that you mentionned BUT at a level of integration and scalability that I had never seen in any other product. - someone in the discussions mentionned IBM InformationServer as an alternative. Functionnaly that sounds quite similar to Foundry. The question is whether the implementation choices are as clever as in Foundry. #toBeInvestigated
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - phendrenad2 1y ago
        > how to slice the ineffable reality into parts and how to communicate complex things to people So, lots and lots of pie charts?
        strogonoff 1y ago
        Slicing reality doesn’t make it into a pie!
  - surebut 1y ago
    You are aware the product names are cognitive obfuscation that the underlying implementation is just vanilla open source data modeling services right? Linux. Windows. Both are "operating systems"? What actual novel data collating and anomaly detection algorithms does Palantir implement that no one else does? Oh that's right these services are all just different corporate branding atop the same old open source stacks and libraries everyone uses.
    - caycep 1y ago
      At least Astronomer has Gwyneth Paltrow
    - lolive 1y ago
      Show me a fully graphical version controlled UI that hides PySpark behind visual widgets. Show me a entity-relationship model management [with version control] that wraps Spark data frames into a fully ontology-based graph database. Show me a low code/no code UI designer that is fully consuming the ontology layer abstracting your Spark dataFrames. #meWaiting
      - surebut 1y ago
        Yeah ok let me go expropriate other peoples systems. They exist but are used in house not sold as products. There are information theory texts with all these ideas written in them published back in the 1950s we just didn't have powerful enough computers Thiel and Musk's only advantage is age. They were able to implement first due to a single property of physics. Most "geniuses" today, like Tao, just like reading math. None of them have any truly novel net new ideas. They're parrots whose cages were in the nerdy section of a book store.
        kevinventullo 1y ago
        Pretty sure Tao’s had one or two new ideas.
        lolive 1y ago
        I still wait for my list of immediately available products, so my company can escape the evilness [and overefficiency] of the PalantirFoundry stack.
prng2021 1y ago
I’d like to hear from others, but my assumption has been that they’re the ones that 1) have staff with the required clearance to work on DoD projects and 2) the required security and compliance certifications in their product. On the latter, it’s not easy to provide a product that is DoD IL5 certified, so that is a differentiator for them.
- AndrewKemendo 1y ago
  This is the actual answer I was in the IC when Palantir was being rolled out and took a bunch of their training courses at their facilities in Georgetown They have the data storage that complies with DCID and RMF ATO requirements across every IL and compartment Before Palantir the only thing that we had was Analyst Notebook and you had to have a CD to run it and manage your own data repos locally Palantir was entirely browser based and you didn’t have to manage data at all so they killed AN almost immediately
- ta12653421 1y ago
  since i was not sure whats included in IL5, i asked GPT: >> FedRAMP Moderate baseline (as a foundation) Additional DoD SRG IL5 controls on top of FedRAMP Physical and logical separation of IL5 workloads from lower-level workloads U.S. citizenship and background checks for all cloud personnel with access Hosting and data storage within U.S. territory Continuous monitoring and incident response plans that meet DoD requirements DoD-specific access controls and encryption <<< Thats quite some strict list which most companies would just not pass...
TriangleEdge 1y ago
Ex FDE here. Part of Palantir's pitch for Foundry back in the day is connecting disparate databases from agencies that don't collaborate well. They're also really good at getting demos up and running in a few days. The tech was good back when I was employed. They get hate because support war efforts / police / intelligence. They do 5 year contracts with the govt then bump the prices once they're sticky, like a J curve, hence the valuation.
- jgalt212 1y ago
  True, but government programs get cancelled all the time.
  - hopelite 1y ago
    I am not sure what government you are thinking of, but not in the US government. There are some trimmings and some consolidation that may shift people and function in or under something else, but the programs, as generally defined by activities (because the nature of a “program” often morphs over time, even if everything else remains the same) basically never really get shut down anymore, if ever. There may be a loss of interest or focus, often related to technological changes causing an atrophy over time, but that usually also just leads to long tail existence that seems to mostly be defined by the duration of the career length of those involved and/or any kind of special interests that can maintain their nepotistic/corrupt advocacy. It is a function of the empire and the reserve currency status of it, i.e., the “infinite” money printing that causes profligacy that is also an existential threat because it distorts perceptions and reality, e.g., the belief that it does not matter and that no discipline in spending or budgeting is necessary, hence why America has essentially for 56 years now (ignoring the anomaly in 2001) not produced a balanced budget.
    - throwaway290 1y ago
      Didn't trump/doge just shut a ton of them?
      - 1y ago
whilenot-dev 1y ago
> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? Don't known about any other government officials, but Austrians ex-chancellor Sebastian Kurz has strong ties with his Tel Aviv-based cybersecurity startup Dream[0]. [0]: https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-former-chancellor-sebastian-kurz-palantir-technologies-silicon-valley-peter-thiel/ https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-former-chancellor-se...
FergusArgyll 1y ago
This was an article that really helped me understand it https://sarahconstantin.substack.com/p/the-great-data-integration-schlep https://sarahconstantin.substack.com/p/the-great-data-integr...
- ethbr1 1y ago
  That's a great summary, especially the part about Palantir's strategic customer approach being the middle squeeze (high + low buy-in being used to override middle manager blockers). The problem as enunciated also 100% tracks with my time as a consultant -- delivering solutions was 40% people-fixing and 60% code-fixing.
api 1y ago
They're blowing up because they've got allies in government right now steering them contracts, which is par for the course for big government contracting. Elections are to a certain extent a contest between different camps to swing at the Piñata of Federal funding, with the winner taking the current batch of candy. I kinda think Palantir is GenZ TRW, or at least the data analytics sections of TRW that did things like the first US social credit... I mean... credit score systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Inc. SAP is also a good comparison, so maybe GenZ SAP. There's a ton of conspiracy theories about them because their founders are tech-right ideologues. I'd pretty much guarantee that if we'd elected the most mega-woke president in US history instead of Trump and they wanted to commission a huge government data project to analyze the entire American workforce to look for racial, ethic, and sexual orientation biases, Palantir would bid on that contract. Not saying they're doing great stuff, but the bad stuff they're doing is the fault of your elected representatives. People voted for this.
- themafia 1y ago
  > because they've got allies in government right now steering them contracts Is that because palantir takes them out for golf outings and steaks? Or is it because palantir promises certain results and outcomes to them once the product is in place? > There's a ton of conspiracy theories about them because their founders are tech-right ideologues. Yea, it's just the ideology of their founders, it has _nothing_ to do with their actions and partnerships. > I'd pretty much guarantee that if we'd elected the most mega-woke president in US history instead of Trump and they wanted to commission a huge government data project to analyze the entire American workforce to look for racial, ethic, and sexual orientation biases, Palantir would bid on that contract. "They're evil and they don't care who's buying." > but the bad stuff they're doing is the fault of your elected representatives. That's not how morality, ethics, or the law works. > People voted for this. Literally _no one_ voted for this. The people who wanted DOGE to clean up government spending did not in any way think that all federal data, including their own private medical data, would be, or even need to be, fed into a private company to be used in service of the problem. This is ridiculous apologia for evil. What is wrong with this site? If there's even a single dollar of profit on the table then civil rights are the first thing the "hacker news types" sacrifice. It makes you all seem gross and unapproachable.
caycep 1y ago
just speculating, but part of the "nothing special" piece may be that the best engineers/software devs who dream of "changing the world" for the better won't give them the time of day, but they can do "just good enough for government work" analytics / software dev for government work
caycep 1y ago
> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? Yes, in that one of their cofounders and his buddies bankrolled the current administration...
cannabis_sam 1y ago
Why would their pitch to prospective targets reflect their corporate aims? Do facebook or google do this to their users?

jxf 1y ago

> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? It's a little bit of being good at sales but it's also very much that the integrations with their tools and platforms are synergistic to a large degree.

chpatrick 1y ago

I've heard people say it's basically SAP with some spooky mystique for marketing.

lolive 1y ago
Wake me up when SAP provides productivity tools of the level of PalantirFoundry’s Pipeline Builder, Ontology Manager, Data Lineage and Workshop.
- chpatrick 1y ago
  I'm really glad I don't know what any of those things are.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - lolive 1y ago
    They are the tools why PalantirFoundry is worth every penny [not entirely true note: PalantirFoundry is a lowCode/noCode stack on top of a Spark cluster] Pipeline Builder : https://youtu.be/WIQA7u1tbsY?si=iG-N9xHpUPPVAqDX https://youtu.be/WIQA7u1tbsY?si=iG-N9xHpUPPVAqDX OntologyManager: https://youtu.be/SOW0IA_I0bk?si=u5eha0o-yrn4pHvu https://youtu.be/SOW0IA_I0bk?si=u5eha0o-yrn4pHvu Workshop: https://youtu.be/Uh0zpMUR6wY?si=BClTTbch70ZolRCb https://youtu.be/Uh0zpMUR6wY?si=BClTTbch70ZolRCb
    - belter 1y ago
      I am sorry but these look like very basic ETL/UI Dashboard tools. Is this all they got?
      - lolive 1y ago
        I would love to know an alternative to that superbly integrated stack . [be aware that none of those tools require coding knowledge, nor any DB administration, nor scalability consideration. But for me the most important part is that the data workflow is not dataFrame driven, but semantic entity/relationship driven. Think of that as if you had an ORM magically wrapping your Spark cluster, and make it look like a graph database. Oh, and the sync with ElaticSearch is built-in for a no-brainer semantic search feature on your objects]
        belter 1y ago
        > but semantic entity/relationship driven This is marketing speak who means nothing. What do you mean? Something like this?: https://www.ibm.com/products/information-governance-catalog https://www.ibm.com/products/information-governance-catalog
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        lolive 1y ago
        Your data in Foundry are available both as tabular content and as a graph at the same time. Here is a tool to visually explore your graph: https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/vertex/graphs-explore https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/vertex/graphs-explore And here is the search engine to search for your objects (free-text and/or types): https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/object-explorer/getting-started/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/object-explorer/gettin... And here is the tool to manage the ontology (the types and relationships of the graph, plus the mapping of the graph to the tabular datasets): https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/ontology-manager/overview/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/ontology-manager/overv... The UI designer based on the graph data is called Workshop: https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/workshop/overview/ https://www.palantir.com/docs/foundry/workshop/overview/ I still have to find a stack where this duality is as integrated as in Foundry.
  - strogonoff 1y ago
    Ontologies, semantic relationships, data pipelines, data provenance (I suppose a.k.a. lineage), etc. are all things that quickly become familiar to anyone working on knowledge management. All of these things are pretty fascinating, as they concern the meta of the meta; the nature of knowledge itself; how to slice the ineffable reality into parts and how to communicate complex things to people. Many software engineers are happy not knowing any of those terms. This perceived boredom is part of the reason why companies, some indeed with questionable ethics, like Palantir (is there even more than one in this space?) have very little competition and are making big bucks on big contracts (and only stand to make more once ML becomes less chaotic and more structured).
    - lolive 1y ago
      I definitely agree. Two comments here: - the real power of Foundry is that it is REALLY scalable. Palantir is selling all the knowledge management+data management that you mentionned BUT at a level of integration and scalability that I had never seen in any other product. - someone in the discussions mentionned IBM InformationServer as an alternative. Functionnaly that sounds quite similar to Foundry. The question is whether the implementation choices are as clever as in Foundry. #toBeInvestigated
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - phendrenad2 1y ago
      > how to slice the ineffable reality into parts and how to communicate complex things to people So, lots and lots of pie charts?
      - strogonoff 1y ago
        Slicing reality doesn’t make it into a pie!
- surebut 1y ago
  You are aware the product names are cognitive obfuscation that the underlying implementation is just vanilla open source data modeling services right? Linux. Windows. Both are "operating systems"? What actual novel data collating and anomaly detection algorithms does Palantir implement that no one else does? Oh that's right these services are all just different corporate branding atop the same old open source stacks and libraries everyone uses.
  - caycep 1y ago
    At least Astronomer has Gwyneth Paltrow
  - lolive 1y ago
    Show me a fully graphical version controlled UI that hides PySpark behind visual widgets. Show me a entity-relationship model management [with version control] that wraps Spark data frames into a fully ontology-based graph database. Show me a low code/no code UI designer that is fully consuming the ontology layer abstracting your Spark dataFrames. #meWaiting
    - surebut 1y ago
      Yeah ok let me go expropriate other peoples systems. They exist but are used in house not sold as products. There are information theory texts with all these ideas written in them published back in the 1950s we just didn't have powerful enough computers Thiel and Musk's only advantage is age. They were able to implement first due to a single property of physics. Most "geniuses" today, like Tao, just like reading math. None of them have any truly novel net new ideas. They're parrots whose cages were in the nerdy section of a book store.
      - kevinventullo 1y ago
        Pretty sure Tao’s had one or two new ideas.
      - lolive 1y ago
        I still wait for my list of immediately available products, so my company can escape the evilness [and overefficiency] of the PalantirFoundry stack.

prng2021 1y ago

I’d like to hear from others, but my assumption has been that they’re the ones that 1) have staff with the required clearance to work on DoD projects and 2) the required security and compliance certifications in their product. On the latter, it’s not easy to provide a product that is DoD IL5 certified, so that is a differentiator for them.

AndrewKemendo 1y ago
This is the actual answer I was in the IC when Palantir was being rolled out and took a bunch of their training courses at their facilities in Georgetown They have the data storage that complies with DCID and RMF ATO requirements across every IL and compartment Before Palantir the only thing that we had was Analyst Notebook and you had to have a CD to run it and manage your own data repos locally Palantir was entirely browser based and you didn’t have to manage data at all so they killed AN almost immediately
ta12653421 1y ago
since i was not sure whats included in IL5, i asked GPT: >> FedRAMP Moderate baseline (as a foundation) Additional DoD SRG IL5 controls on top of FedRAMP Physical and logical separation of IL5 workloads from lower-level workloads U.S. citizenship and background checks for all cloud personnel with access Hosting and data storage within U.S. territory Continuous monitoring and incident response plans that meet DoD requirements DoD-specific access controls and encryption <<< Thats quite some strict list which most companies would just not pass...

TriangleEdge 1y ago

Ex FDE here. Part of Palantir's pitch for Foundry back in the day is connecting disparate databases from agencies that don't collaborate well. They're also really good at getting demos up and running in a few days. The tech was good back when I was employed. They get hate because support war efforts / police / intelligence. They do 5 year contracts with the govt then bump the prices once they're sticky, like a J curve, hence the valuation.

jgalt212 1y ago
True, but government programs get cancelled all the time.
- hopelite 1y ago
  I am not sure what government you are thinking of, but not in the US government. There are some trimmings and some consolidation that may shift people and function in or under something else, but the programs, as generally defined by activities (because the nature of a “program” often morphs over time, even if everything else remains the same) basically never really get shut down anymore, if ever. There may be a loss of interest or focus, often related to technological changes causing an atrophy over time, but that usually also just leads to long tail existence that seems to mostly be defined by the duration of the career length of those involved and/or any kind of special interests that can maintain their nepotistic/corrupt advocacy. It is a function of the empire and the reserve currency status of it, i.e., the “infinite” money printing that causes profligacy that is also an existential threat because it distorts perceptions and reality, e.g., the belief that it does not matter and that no discipline in spending or budgeting is necessary, hence why America has essentially for 56 years now (ignoring the anomaly in 2001) not produced a balanced budget.
  - throwaway290 1y ago
    Didn't trump/doge just shut a ton of them?
    - 1y ago

whilenot-dev 1y ago

> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? Don't known about any other government officials, but Austrians ex-chancellor Sebastian Kurz has strong ties with his Tel Aviv-based cybersecurity startup Dream[0]. [0]: https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-former-chancellor-sebastian-kurz-palantir-technologies-silicon-valley-peter-thiel/ https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-former-chancellor-se...

FergusArgyll 1y ago

This was an article that really helped me understand it https://sarahconstantin.substack.com/p/the-great-data-integration-schlep https://sarahconstantin.substack.com/p/the-great-data-integr...

ethbr1 1y ago
That's a great summary, especially the part about Palantir's strategic customer approach being the middle squeeze (high + low buy-in being used to override middle manager blockers). The problem as enunciated also 100% tracks with my time as a consultant -- delivering solutions was 40% people-fixing and 60% code-fixing.

api 1y ago

They're blowing up because they've got allies in government right now steering them contracts, which is par for the course for big government contracting. Elections are to a certain extent a contest between different camps to swing at the Piñata of Federal funding, with the winner taking the current batch of candy. I kinda think Palantir is GenZ TRW, or at least the data analytics sections of TRW that did things like the first US social credit... I mean... credit score systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Inc. SAP is also a good comparison, so maybe GenZ SAP. There's a ton of conspiracy theories about them because their founders are tech-right ideologues. I'd pretty much guarantee that if we'd elected the most mega-woke president in US history instead of Trump and they wanted to commission a huge government data project to analyze the entire American workforce to look for racial, ethic, and sexual orientation biases, Palantir would bid on that contract. Not saying they're doing great stuff, but the bad stuff they're doing is the fault of your elected representatives. People voted for this.

themafia 1y ago
> because they've got allies in government right now steering them contracts Is that because palantir takes them out for golf outings and steaks? Or is it because palantir promises certain results and outcomes to them once the product is in place? > There's a ton of conspiracy theories about them because their founders are tech-right ideologues. Yea, it's just the ideology of their founders, it has _nothing_ to do with their actions and partnerships. > I'd pretty much guarantee that if we'd elected the most mega-woke president in US history instead of Trump and they wanted to commission a huge government data project to analyze the entire American workforce to look for racial, ethic, and sexual orientation biases, Palantir would bid on that contract. "They're evil and they don't care who's buying." > but the bad stuff they're doing is the fault of your elected representatives. That's not how morality, ethics, or the law works. > People voted for this. Literally _no one_ voted for this. The people who wanted DOGE to clean up government spending did not in any way think that all federal data, including their own private medical data, would be, or even need to be, fed into a private company to be used in service of the problem. This is ridiculous apologia for evil. What is wrong with this site? If there's even a single dollar of profit on the table then civil rights are the first thing the "hacker news types" sacrifice. It makes you all seem gross and unapproachable.

caycep 1y ago

just speculating, but part of the "nothing special" piece may be that the best engineers/software devs who dream of "changing the world" for the better won't give them the time of day, but they can do "just good enough for government work" analytics / software dev for government work

caycep 1y ago

> Do they have some extensive network with gov. officials, in the same way top management consulting firms operate? Yes, in that one of their cofounders and his buddies bankrolled the current administration...

cannabis_sam 1y ago

Why would their pitch to prospective targets reflect their corporate aims? Do facebook or google do this to their users?