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I’d like to offer an alternative explanation than AI to this. Shit is just too damn expensive. If you want to go hang out with friends it will cost you $4-8 for

I’d like to offer an alternative explanation than AI to this. Shit is just too damn expensive. If you want to go hang out with friends it will cost you $4-8 for a cup of coffee. A dinner starts at $50/person. A trip to an amusement park is over $100 easily. The median individual income in the US currently is just over $65k/year or about $32.50/hour. That means half the workforce makes less than that. When an 8oz cocktail costs you an hour of your life because you work for minimum wage, you’d rather stay home and watch TikTok. But it’s not about the price of going out. It is about the crushing stress of surviving in this economic climate that is leaving people absolutely no energy to go and socialize. Whenever the average personal economy swings back towards “can afford to live in this country” again, people will socialize again. Until then everything will be in decline except stock trading and investment in AI projects.

bowsamic 1y ago
I honestly just think it’s that before there was so little to do at home that you were just bored as hell if you didn’t go out. Now there’s just infinite entertainment of all kinds
- mmcgaha 1y ago
  Yep, this is it exactly. When I was young TV, including HBO, would go off the air at night. You could not have hours of fun playing an Atari. Having fun at home was cards and board games. Late night fun . . . well that will probably never change.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  We just have to be very careful with this line of thinking. One could misunderstand that you are blaming information access for these problems.
  - bowsamic 1y ago
    That would not be a misunderstanding, it is so
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      Then I have to wholeheartedly disagree, because that's elitist. The 10% of the population will never have problems with information access. Only the poor is affected if you go after information access.
      - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
        O.k., misled information access...now let me do this for you... My kinese television-set says: "People are digitally often misled by disinformation." Have you ever "searchengined" a look for a "lesbian sunset"? The search-engine i used had more than 29,000 search-hits for "lesbian sunset", and i clicked on nearly all of them...but there was none "lesbian sunset" no one, no a single one, none. It showed (for example)... lesbian sunset lesbian sunset today lesbian sunset Berlin lesbian sunset Munich lesbian sunset 4k Lesbian Sunset - Check out our selection of lesbian sunsets to find the most amazing unique or custom-made handmade lesbian sunsets from our stores. Lesbian sunset: what's going on? Classic lesbian sunset... Regular special offers and discounts up to 70% Lesbians on the Beach: Stock video ...and they dance! Sunset as a stage of belonging. High-quality lesbian sunset-themed items from all over the world. Get out the cylinder and monocle, now it's time Sunset for Sale Reel with a feminist touch and sunset golf course. Lesbian sunset for adults Colorful ... Lively, inspired by the sunset, expressing identity in style. Manifesto of the „Lesbian Sunset“ Sunset in red and purple - not just beautiful. Lesbian sunset in Munich and after-party A different scene... I mean, that's a myth. There is no lesbian sunset for me! But typed in a search line... over 29,000 hits for "lesbian sunset" (counts) They don't exist! You don't even remotely know, even one not even a single lesbian sunset... At this point you may ask: "What he/she/it/div was thinking about?" (using an 'AI' to translate and for some 'chars' i forgot the asci-code for - too often...) A battle-painting is probably the most accurate, i was thinking about 12 x 4 meters, where you've been able to zoom in, if you are at a computerscreen... I even looked for fresco painters, nothing...! Not a single lesbian sunset... not one... (feeling rude about...) That is what i call a Myth... ...talked too dumb, free! (explanation: How to set a one topic record for been too relevant OT but still related hahaha?)^^
- proof_by_vibes 1y ago
  Finally I find this argument. Agreed, and I'm baffled that people think that AI is what's going to "solve loneliness." Loneliness has already been solved by YouTube/Twitch. The brain is easily tricked into thinking that it is "being social" when it is subject to the effects of the parasocial relationships that are formed by these platforms. People's afternoons are rapidly becoming consumed by hours of YouTube where they come out of it with a brain telling them: "boy, that's enough social interaction for today!" Introversion has become an epidemic as a result.
  - FMecha 1y ago
    It's not just streamers - fictional characters are also increasingly engineered to be this way. Besides the loot box aspect, many East Asian gacha games are built with parasocial relationships with the characters in mind, for one. (See community controversies surrounding Girls' Frontline 2 and Snowbreak for examples.)
gchamonlive 1y ago
I second that. Everybody is quick to jump the gun and blame the victim, while all this can be easily explained by the insane lifestyle we are forced to subscribe in order to survive in this crazy cut-throat productivist job market.
- kylebenzle 1y ago
  That explanation makes no sense, obviously. Human beings have been human beings long before things even cost money and will exist long after money is gone. I'm happy to accept the idea that people are simply brainwashed into thinking they need money and that is the root of their problems, but needing money is not a problem for a human being in and of itself. Edit: but I think you said it yourself, you seem to think that you're forced to live a certain lifestyle, that's not true. You want to live a certain lifestyle and that lifestyle takes a lot of money.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    > Human beings have been human beings long before things even cost money and will exist long after money is gone. That thinking assumes that money and human behaviour is in a one direction. You first have human behaviour and then you have money, so it would stand to reason that one is subject to the other. However, in reality the relationship is of co-dependency. Human behaviour adapts to the availability of money and what it buys. Have you ever seen trying to reintroduce a wild animal after it's being treated for a long time? You can't just throw it in the jungle and expect them to survive. > needing money is not a problem for a human being in and of itself. Which I'm reading that is not essential, following the previous paragraph, which I disagree. Take electricity out, most people wouldn't be able to survive too long. We weren't dependent but we've built lifesyles that are and we are trapped in it. Which doesn't mean we need to return to jungle, it's just that we need to treat the relationship between humans and the economy with much more respect than that. > you seem to think that you're forced to live a certain lifestyle, that's not true. I believe you are thinking about a ostentatious lifestyle. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about lifestyle where we are used to electricity and supermarkets. Where everything is taken care of so that we hyperspecialize our skill sets.
rayiner 1y ago
Coal miners in 1890s appalachia had healthier and more active social lives than american white collar workers. This does not have anything to do with economics.
- IgorPartola 1y ago
  I am not saying you are wrong but from what I understood that alcoholism and depression were quite prevalent in those times. Do you have sources for what you are saying?
  - profsummergig 1y ago
    An undiagnosed alcoholic (IMHO) I used to know, would happily spend 6 hours any evening, drinking with anyone, gossiping about completely useless things. They could be doing this with complete strangers whom they would never meet again, they could even be doing this with someone visiting to let them know that they were going to sue them (actually happened at least once). They thought they were very "social". Yeah, if this is what "sociality" means, please spare me its gifts.
    - ido 1y ago
      Aside from the drinking, what is wrong with the social activity you just mentioned? Or was your point that they only used it as an excuse to drink? Cause it would have surely been easier & cheaper to just drink at home on their own.
      - saulpw 1y ago
        It's hollow and doesn't lead to any kind of friendship or bond. You might as well walk around blazed out of your mind and saying hello to everyone you pass on the street. It feels friendly but no connections are made.
        ido 1y ago
        I don't think leading to long term connections (although a big bonus) is a requirement for socialization to be positive. The alternative we discuss in this context is to being home alone.
mantas 1y ago
The problem is that people immediately think that socializing is consuming. It’s always an option to chat with people sitting on a park bench. Or at one’s home in a kitchen. Coffee can be home-made in both cases.
- mystraline 1y ago
  In my smaller city, parks and benches are populated with homeless people of various types. At minimum, the benches are used. Worse off, a significant minority are actively violent with a good dose of various untreated mental illnesses. Crossing them is not good for your health. And it also makes kind of a terrible environment to talk with friends, while avoiding drug needles. Even the public library has similar problems, but at least they have security guards (yes, plural, sigh). That basically leaves our respective homes/apartments and pay-money-to-consume-and-sit places. And even bars are mostly off limits due to highly acoustic reflective surfaces and overly loud music, to dissuade talking and encourage more drinking. There's very little places to meet in public that is encouraging and free. Then again, I think that really is by design.
  - mantas 1y ago
    Looks like you guys have bigger issues than socializing and expensive coffee. Here it’s not uncommon to meet some rowdy people out and about. Not necessarily homeless. But it’s not hard to find some silent corner to enjoy some coffee from a thermos. Other option… Maybe head out to nature trails? Chat while walking at enjoy some coffee at a rest stop? Even few kilometers from the city homeless are unlikely even whereever you are…?
    - giantrobot 1y ago
      > Even few kilometers from the city homeless are unlikely even whereever you are…? Where I am all the nature and bike trails lined with homeless encampments. It's actually been quite a problem. Unless you go out on serious hike type trails you're surrounded by homeless.
      - 1y ago
inquirerGeneral 1y ago
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johnfn 1y ago
I don't buy this explanation. There are plenty of things you can do together that don't cost very much - or anything at all. You can go take a hike. You can go to the park and hang out, or play a board game. You can go to a court and play pickleball. Heck, go to the library! All these things are free and many people do them.
- taormina 1y ago
  Gas costs money. The car costs money. You can only do the same hike that's an hour away so many times, before you're traveling to go to new places, and hotels cost money at that point. Pickleball courts cost money. The pickleball equipment costs money. People do go to the library, and then they go home and don't interact with other people.
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    The fact that many young people don't seem to think that "Hey, we'd just go over to someone's apartment/house to hang out and have a meal or drink" as a primary form of entertainment (vs. some "activity") makes me realize how much we have fucked over many young people as a society in general.
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
      I did that as a kid and I loved it, but it made sense when everyone was in bicycling distance. Then one by one, we got cars and the friend groups shuffled from "Who is in bicycling range" to "Who is in driving range", and driving range is so big that it's not practical to drive 4 miles to my closest friend, knock on her door, hope she isn't having sex with her husband, and ask if she wants to chill
      - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
        > and driving range is so big that it's not practical to drive 4 miles to my closest friend, knock on her door, hope she isn't having sex with her husband, and ask if she wants to chill Does she not have a phone? Calling someone up and saying "hey, let's hang out" and then driving over to hang out was literally how most of suburban social interactions happened in the 90s.
moralestapia 1y ago
You're right, but also. Most of my best years with friends I spent little to no money while meeting them. Just going to the local park and sit down and talk or do dumb things, free.
DoneWithAllThat 1y ago
This excuse is so tiresome. Generations before you lived through far worse than whatever supposed hell you doom scrolled your way into believing. The world is literally better than it’s ever been. Go experience it instead of complaining about vibes.
- OKRainbowKid 1y ago
  The world might be better than it has been throughout most of history, but the trend seems to be pointing downward, and to me it seems like we are steering towards several tipping points (or cliffs, phrased more dramatically), and the people in power seem to have little interest in changing course. This drags me down immensely, even though economically, I am doing alright. It seems like short/mid term economy/GDP is all that governments are optimizing for - actual well-being of the average citizen seems pretty far down on the list.
- bearl 1y ago
  Directionally correct. But not better in terms of security or privacy. Life expectancy has decreased for American born persons. Housing is now impossibly unaffordable, and to find a mate you need to use tech products that increasingly only serve to hurt users (tea) and sow discord between those either differing views (x/facebook). Yes, glorious times for some, but not for the average American born person.
- IgorPartola 1y ago
  If you can’t afford to not work something like 60-70 hours a week because your corporate own house rent is sky high you aren’t doing much exploring. This argument that you just need to take off and go experience the world is so tiresome because it is so privileged. It means you have no ties, no responsibilities, no family who rely on you.
soulofmischief 1y ago
In my state is the federal minimum of $7.25/hr. You're looking at two hours of work for one cocktail. And my state is addicted to alcohol. The overwhelming majority of people I know in this state won't even meet up with you if there's not a beer waiting for them. People work all week and then spend half their paycheck in one night, then rinse, wash, repeat. I consider the state of affairs here to be nothing short of abject poverty. I look around at the declining, unmaintained infrastructure, I hear youth talk about how so many establishments have closed and how if you don't have money there is nothing to do, and you get harassed at parks (I have personally had the police pull up and accost me for just existing at a park) so the only thing left to do is get into mischief, unless you just don't want social contact with your peers. I tell people it looks and feels worse than post-Soviet Eastern Europe out here in Louisiana.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  This idea of pretending that your only option is $15 cocktails really makes this argument look lame. Not to mention that the federal minimum wage is basically irrelevant in most places - where I live starting entry level pay at McDonald's is $17/hr. Cocktails were expensive when I was young, too. We just hardly ever drank them. We went to the liquor store and bought the cheapest shit we could that probably had a 50/50 chance of making us go blind.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    I worked at McDonald's in the 1980s. Started at $3.25/hr never made more than about $5/hr before I moved on. Cocktails at a bar were about the same price relative to that as they are now. We drank the cheapest swill beer they had on draft. It was about being there with your friends, not drinking some froo-froo cocktails.
    - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
      My take on this: life is actually a lot harder for young people than when we were kids. There is less opportunity for upwardly mobile advancement, and social media has essentially wrecked people's brains (adults included). I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option - it just doesn't occur to a lot of young people, but in many respects a lot of them never learned this skill as kids. Tons of studies have shown kids have a lot less "unstructured play" time than they used to. But then given that stuff is actually harder, I think blaming "stuff is just too expensive" is simply easier. Otherwise it forces you to confront the fact that a lot of this stuff is in your control.
Aurornis 1y ago
> If you want to go hang out with friends it will cost you $4-8 for a cup of coffee. A dinner starts at $50/person. A trip to an amusement park is over $100 easily. The median individual income in the US currently is just over $65k/year or about $32.50/hour. That means half the workforce makes less than that. When an 8oz cocktail costs you an hour of your life because you work for minimum wage, you’d rather stay home and watch TikTok. These comments are so strange to read. There’s an entire world of people out there doing things and socializing without buying cocktails or $100 amusement park tickets to do it. You don’t need to pay anything more than what it takes to get you to someone else or a common meeting spot like a walk through the park. In the fitness world there’s a never ending stream of people who complain that they want to get in shape but can’t afford a $100/month gym membership. When you explain to them that the $20/month budget gym is fine or you can buy some $30 quality running shoes on clearance, they either disappear or get angry because you’ve pierced their excuse for avoiding the activity. I tend to see something similar when you explain that you don’t need to buy $8 coffees or $100 amusement park tickets to socialize with people.
- aunty_helen 1y ago
  I agree with this wholeheartedly, but those 100$ amusement parks have a lot of budget to advertise and make it seem like they’re the only place to go on your free time. No body is putting up billboards for silent reading clubs so they get drowned out making it appear as if those options aren’t there. Advertising works.
- shkkmo 1y ago
  > You don’t need to pay anything more than what it takes to get you to someone else or a common meeting spot like a walk through the park. You also need somone to go take that walk with you and the social skills to organize it Yes, it is possible to hangout without spending money. That said, the kind of activities it tends to be easier to get people to agree to go do also tend to cost money. As those activities cost more and more, that decreases the amount of socialization that happens. Sure, some of that shifts to lower cost activities and perhaps that shift increases over time as culture changes. That doesn't mean that rising prices don't explain some of the measured decrease in social activity.
jjulius 1y ago
> A dinner starts at $50/person. I went to dinner with a friend last night and my meal was $22. I go to lunch with coworkers and often only spend ~$15-ish. One also doesn't need to do activities that cost money in order to hang out with people one knows. Get together and play board games or cards. I hung out with my friends last weekend - we brought our records over and DJ'd, someone brought some frozen burgers, I supplied some THC tincture I've had for months, another person brought a cheap bottle of wine they also already had. We had a blast for like seven hours. Hiking is also fantastic, and free!
- IgorPartola 1y ago
  And that’s my second point. Even if you do things that don’t cost money, the stress of living paycheck to paycheck is going to sap any will to live from most people experiencing it.
  - jjulius 1y ago
    As it happens, I live paycheck to paycheck. Prioritizing those moments is how I steer clear from being too stressed. :)
- foobarian 1y ago
  > my meal was $22 Including tax and tip?
  - jjulius 1y ago
    Yup! We went walking through a nearby nature preserve, then went to a fast-casual poke spot. $16 for a large bowl (damn tasty, too!) and a can of green tea, plus 10% tip. It's Oregon, so no tax.
nottorp 1y ago
> When an 8oz cocktail costs you an hour of your life I don't know about that, we meet with a group of friends at someone's house, we all pitch in for the ingredients and make the cocktails ourselves.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  It feels weird to read all these responses from people who think the only way to socialize is to pay high prices at bars and coffee shops. It’s like how someone who avoids socialization imagines what socialization looks like. I hope some people are reading this thread and realizing it’s not as expensive as they assume to go out and do things. There are many people out there making a fraction of what most readers here do who have no problem finding things to do for socialization.
  - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
    [dead]
JadoJodo 1y ago
> It is about the crushing stress of surviving in this economic climate that is leaving people absolutely no energy to go and socialize. The past 2-years have been some of the most difficult of my life (for a number of non-work reasons). After work, family, and household tasks, I have often been left with little energy in the evenings (and no real desire to socialize). And yet, as a part of a church men's group I attend weekly, I have had the opportunity to engage with others going through similar things. How do I know that they are going through similar things? Because it's come out when as I've consistently engaged with the same group of people. It's very easy when you're tired and stressed to “turtle” and internalize everything; I've done it more times than I can count. And yet this is the time when I most need others. These guys are not in my friends group, and yet the struggles (and successes) that are shared are sometimes more than I hear from close friends. The result of hearing others' struggles is the realization that a) I am not the only one going through hard stuff, and b) focusing on others' struggles makes dealing with my own easier. “Socializing” with others may cost money, but connecting with them doesn't have to: I spend $0/week meeting the guys in my group for an hour or two. In reflecting on my own attitudes towards socializing in the past, I've come to realize that it can be very self-focused: How can _I_ feel better? How can _I_ have fun? What can _I_ get out of going out? I am, by no means, the arbiter of selflessness (not even close, ha!), but I have learned that connecting with others' with their good in mind has had the incredible effect of giving me energy where there was very little before. Just my $0.02.
tbirdny 1y ago
Yes, money is a huge factor. So is time. You need both. I see these major factors: housing costs, health insurance costs, and the two-income trap. The fact that both people in almost every couple must have a job just to survive and pay for housing makes it so that no one has any time. If couples could survive on a single income, there would be a lot more time to manage the home, support the family, friends, neighbors, and community. Those are social activities that few have time for anymore.
deleted 1y ago
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NoLinkToMe 1y ago
This isn't really borne out by the statistics. Real median personal income has been trending up for a century now, the longest dips (before an upwards trend would ensue) were periods of 5 years of mild deterioration. [0] It also doesn't sit well with my personal anecdata. My life and that of my friends is way better than their parents. I've literally travelled to all major continents in the world for recreational travel by the time mom had only left her village at around 20 years old, for example. Cocktails is just an absurd standard for anything. It's the one item you can buy that is completely and utterly divorced from its costs, its price is a function of how rich people are that this thing is being sold, not how expensive it is to produce a cocktail. 2 cents of sugar and 30 cents of liquor and $15 of branding being sold for $15.50 doesn't mean life is expensive, it means people in this neighbourhood are pretty rich and can throw away money. My mom literally has never had a cocktail in her life yet has had a very socially rich life. Yesterday I spent the day with my brother, we rented a car for $50, drove to another town, had some sandwiches and drinks, we spent $100. Today a friend is coming over to my house and I'll pour him a 20 cent coffee and I'll probably make a snack as well, then we'll go for a walk around town while catching up, maybe grab a $2 beer from the supermarket and some fruit and sit by the water. Total cost <$10 for 6 hours of hanging out for two people. You make about $20 in a supermarket per hour here, so we'd have made $240 of wages in the same six hours. These experiences are mostly similar for me and just as fun, the cost factor is purely a choice. If I didn't have any money they'd all be cheap. [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
- rvba 1y ago
  I think most people dont meet in houses anymore. Perhaps because they have roommates? And yes I know people in the past had them too. On a side, a thread full of 600k per year FAANG programmers writing that life is easy for everyone is incredibly ironic.
  - NoLinkToMe 1y ago
    > I think most people dont meet in houses anymore. Even if that was true (no data offered), that's a choice, not some kind of economic inevitability... And again even if it was true, no it's not because of roommates, the number of people per household has gone down over time, not up, for decades. And no it's also not because we live in smaller homes, the average size of homes has gone up also, for decades. We now have about 2.5x more square footage per-person in our homes than 50 years ago. And we all know that are homes are way more equipped with entertainment than ever before (internet with the world's content at our fingertips, home cinema, home libraries, home music sets etc). As for the 600k FAANG, I've never earned more than 100k, never worked in tech, and grew up on welfare. I've been a bottom 10% of the economic ladder for about 80% of my life, and a top 10% (not top 0.1%) for about 20% of my life. Regardless of background, I think we can speak about facts borne out by the data.

bowsamic 1y ago

I honestly just think it’s that before there was so little to do at home that you were just bored as hell if you didn’t go out. Now there’s just infinite entertainment of all kinds

mmcgaha 1y ago
Yep, this is it exactly. When I was young TV, including HBO, would go off the air at night. You could not have hours of fun playing an Atari. Having fun at home was cards and board games. Late night fun . . . well that will probably never change.
gchamonlive 1y ago
We just have to be very careful with this line of thinking. One could misunderstand that you are blaming information access for these problems.
- bowsamic 1y ago
  That would not be a misunderstanding, it is so
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Then I have to wholeheartedly disagree, because that's elitist. The 10% of the population will never have problems with information access. Only the poor is affected if you go after information access.
    - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
      O.k., misled information access...now let me do this for you... My kinese television-set says: "People are digitally often misled by disinformation." Have you ever "searchengined" a look for a "lesbian sunset"? The search-engine i used had more than 29,000 search-hits for "lesbian sunset", and i clicked on nearly all of them...but there was none "lesbian sunset" no one, no a single one, none. It showed (for example)... lesbian sunset lesbian sunset today lesbian sunset Berlin lesbian sunset Munich lesbian sunset 4k Lesbian Sunset - Check out our selection of lesbian sunsets to find the most amazing unique or custom-made handmade lesbian sunsets from our stores. Lesbian sunset: what's going on? Classic lesbian sunset... Regular special offers and discounts up to 70% Lesbians on the Beach: Stock video ...and they dance! Sunset as a stage of belonging. High-quality lesbian sunset-themed items from all over the world. Get out the cylinder and monocle, now it's time Sunset for Sale Reel with a feminist touch and sunset golf course. Lesbian sunset for adults Colorful ... Lively, inspired by the sunset, expressing identity in style. Manifesto of the „Lesbian Sunset“ Sunset in red and purple - not just beautiful. Lesbian sunset in Munich and after-party A different scene... I mean, that's a myth. There is no lesbian sunset for me! But typed in a search line... over 29,000 hits for "lesbian sunset" (counts) They don't exist! You don't even remotely know, even one not even a single lesbian sunset... At this point you may ask: "What he/she/it/div was thinking about?" (using an 'AI' to translate and for some 'chars' i forgot the asci-code for - too often...) A battle-painting is probably the most accurate, i was thinking about 12 x 4 meters, where you've been able to zoom in, if you are at a computerscreen... I even looked for fresco painters, nothing...! Not a single lesbian sunset... not one... (feeling rude about...) That is what i call a Myth... ...talked too dumb, free! (explanation: How to set a one topic record for been too relevant OT but still related hahaha?)^^
proof_by_vibes 1y ago
Finally I find this argument. Agreed, and I'm baffled that people think that AI is what's going to "solve loneliness." Loneliness has already been solved by YouTube/Twitch. The brain is easily tricked into thinking that it is "being social" when it is subject to the effects of the parasocial relationships that are formed by these platforms. People's afternoons are rapidly becoming consumed by hours of YouTube where they come out of it with a brain telling them: "boy, that's enough social interaction for today!" Introversion has become an epidemic as a result.
- FMecha 1y ago
  It's not just streamers - fictional characters are also increasingly engineered to be this way. Besides the loot box aspect, many East Asian gacha games are built with parasocial relationships with the characters in mind, for one. (See community controversies surrounding Girls' Frontline 2 and Snowbreak for examples.)

gchamonlive 1y ago

I second that. Everybody is quick to jump the gun and blame the victim, while all this can be easily explained by the insane lifestyle we are forced to subscribe in order to survive in this crazy cut-throat productivist job market.

kylebenzle 1y ago
That explanation makes no sense, obviously. Human beings have been human beings long before things even cost money and will exist long after money is gone. I'm happy to accept the idea that people are simply brainwashed into thinking they need money and that is the root of their problems, but needing money is not a problem for a human being in and of itself. Edit: but I think you said it yourself, you seem to think that you're forced to live a certain lifestyle, that's not true. You want to live a certain lifestyle and that lifestyle takes a lot of money.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  > Human beings have been human beings long before things even cost money and will exist long after money is gone. That thinking assumes that money and human behaviour is in a one direction. You first have human behaviour and then you have money, so it would stand to reason that one is subject to the other. However, in reality the relationship is of co-dependency. Human behaviour adapts to the availability of money and what it buys. Have you ever seen trying to reintroduce a wild animal after it's being treated for a long time? You can't just throw it in the jungle and expect them to survive. > needing money is not a problem for a human being in and of itself. Which I'm reading that is not essential, following the previous paragraph, which I disagree. Take electricity out, most people wouldn't be able to survive too long. We weren't dependent but we've built lifesyles that are and we are trapped in it. Which doesn't mean we need to return to jungle, it's just that we need to treat the relationship between humans and the economy with much more respect than that. > you seem to think that you're forced to live a certain lifestyle, that's not true. I believe you are thinking about a ostentatious lifestyle. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about lifestyle where we are used to electricity and supermarkets. Where everything is taken care of so that we hyperspecialize our skill sets.

rayiner 1y ago

Coal miners in 1890s appalachia had healthier and more active social lives than american white collar workers. This does not have anything to do with economics.

IgorPartola 1y ago
I am not saying you are wrong but from what I understood that alcoholism and depression were quite prevalent in those times. Do you have sources for what you are saying?
- profsummergig 1y ago
  An undiagnosed alcoholic (IMHO) I used to know, would happily spend 6 hours any evening, drinking with anyone, gossiping about completely useless things. They could be doing this with complete strangers whom they would never meet again, they could even be doing this with someone visiting to let them know that they were going to sue them (actually happened at least once). They thought they were very "social". Yeah, if this is what "sociality" means, please spare me its gifts.
  - ido 1y ago
    Aside from the drinking, what is wrong with the social activity you just mentioned? Or was your point that they only used it as an excuse to drink? Cause it would have surely been easier & cheaper to just drink at home on their own.
    - saulpw 1y ago
      It's hollow and doesn't lead to any kind of friendship or bond. You might as well walk around blazed out of your mind and saying hello to everyone you pass on the street. It feels friendly but no connections are made.
      - ido 1y ago
        I don't think leading to long term connections (although a big bonus) is a requirement for socialization to be positive. The alternative we discuss in this context is to being home alone.

mantas 1y ago

The problem is that people immediately think that socializing is consuming. It’s always an option to chat with people sitting on a park bench. Or at one’s home in a kitchen. Coffee can be home-made in both cases.

mystraline 1y ago
In my smaller city, parks and benches are populated with homeless people of various types. At minimum, the benches are used. Worse off, a significant minority are actively violent with a good dose of various untreated mental illnesses. Crossing them is not good for your health. And it also makes kind of a terrible environment to talk with friends, while avoiding drug needles. Even the public library has similar problems, but at least they have security guards (yes, plural, sigh). That basically leaves our respective homes/apartments and pay-money-to-consume-and-sit places. And even bars are mostly off limits due to highly acoustic reflective surfaces and overly loud music, to dissuade talking and encourage more drinking. There's very little places to meet in public that is encouraging and free. Then again, I think that really is by design.
- mantas 1y ago
  Looks like you guys have bigger issues than socializing and expensive coffee. Here it’s not uncommon to meet some rowdy people out and about. Not necessarily homeless. But it’s not hard to find some silent corner to enjoy some coffee from a thermos. Other option… Maybe head out to nature trails? Chat while walking at enjoy some coffee at a rest stop? Even few kilometers from the city homeless are unlikely even whereever you are…?
  - giantrobot 1y ago
    > Even few kilometers from the city homeless are unlikely even whereever you are…? Where I am all the nature and bike trails lined with homeless encampments. It's actually been quite a problem. Unless you go out on serious hike type trails you're surrounded by homeless.
    - 1y ago

inquirerGeneral 1y ago

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johnfn 1y ago

I don't buy this explanation. There are plenty of things you can do together that don't cost very much - or anything at all. You can go take a hike. You can go to the park and hang out, or play a board game. You can go to a court and play pickleball. Heck, go to the library! All these things are free and many people do them.

taormina 1y ago
Gas costs money. The car costs money. You can only do the same hike that's an hour away so many times, before you're traveling to go to new places, and hotels cost money at that point. Pickleball courts cost money. The pickleball equipment costs money. People do go to the library, and then they go home and don't interact with other people.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  The fact that many young people don't seem to think that "Hey, we'd just go over to someone's apartment/house to hang out and have a meal or drink" as a primary form of entertainment (vs. some "activity") makes me realize how much we have fucked over many young people as a society in general.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
    I did that as a kid and I loved it, but it made sense when everyone was in bicycling distance. Then one by one, we got cars and the friend groups shuffled from "Who is in bicycling range" to "Who is in driving range", and driving range is so big that it's not practical to drive 4 miles to my closest friend, knock on her door, hope she isn't having sex with her husband, and ask if she wants to chill
    - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
      > and driving range is so big that it's not practical to drive 4 miles to my closest friend, knock on her door, hope she isn't having sex with her husband, and ask if she wants to chill Does she not have a phone? Calling someone up and saying "hey, let's hang out" and then driving over to hang out was literally how most of suburban social interactions happened in the 90s.

moralestapia 1y ago

You're right, but also. Most of my best years with friends I spent little to no money while meeting them. Just going to the local park and sit down and talk or do dumb things, free.

DoneWithAllThat 1y ago

This excuse is so tiresome. Generations before you lived through far worse than whatever supposed hell you doom scrolled your way into believing. The world is literally better than it’s ever been. Go experience it instead of complaining about vibes.

OKRainbowKid 1y ago
The world might be better than it has been throughout most of history, but the trend seems to be pointing downward, and to me it seems like we are steering towards several tipping points (or cliffs, phrased more dramatically), and the people in power seem to have little interest in changing course. This drags me down immensely, even though economically, I am doing alright. It seems like short/mid term economy/GDP is all that governments are optimizing for - actual well-being of the average citizen seems pretty far down on the list.
bearl 1y ago
Directionally correct. But not better in terms of security or privacy. Life expectancy has decreased for American born persons. Housing is now impossibly unaffordable, and to find a mate you need to use tech products that increasingly only serve to hurt users (tea) and sow discord between those either differing views (x/facebook). Yes, glorious times for some, but not for the average American born person.
IgorPartola 1y ago
If you can’t afford to not work something like 60-70 hours a week because your corporate own house rent is sky high you aren’t doing much exploring. This argument that you just need to take off and go experience the world is so tiresome because it is so privileged. It means you have no ties, no responsibilities, no family who rely on you.

soulofmischief 1y ago

In my state is the federal minimum of $7.25/hr. You're looking at two hours of work for one cocktail. And my state is addicted to alcohol. The overwhelming majority of people I know in this state won't even meet up with you if there's not a beer waiting for them. People work all week and then spend half their paycheck in one night, then rinse, wash, repeat. I consider the state of affairs here to be nothing short of abject poverty. I look around at the declining, unmaintained infrastructure, I hear youth talk about how so many establishments have closed and how if you don't have money there is nothing to do, and you get harassed at parks (I have personally had the police pull up and accost me for just existing at a park) so the only thing left to do is get into mischief, unless you just don't want social contact with your peers. I tell people it looks and feels worse than post-Soviet Eastern Europe out here in Louisiana.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
This idea of pretending that your only option is $15 cocktails really makes this argument look lame. Not to mention that the federal minimum wage is basically irrelevant in most places - where I live starting entry level pay at McDonald's is $17/hr. Cocktails were expensive when I was young, too. We just hardly ever drank them. We went to the liquor store and bought the cheapest shit we could that probably had a 50/50 chance of making us go blind.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  I worked at McDonald's in the 1980s. Started at $3.25/hr never made more than about $5/hr before I moved on. Cocktails at a bar were about the same price relative to that as they are now. We drank the cheapest swill beer they had on draft. It was about being there with your friends, not drinking some froo-froo cocktails.
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    My take on this: life is actually a lot harder for young people than when we were kids. There is less opportunity for upwardly mobile advancement, and social media has essentially wrecked people's brains (adults included). I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option - it just doesn't occur to a lot of young people, but in many respects a lot of them never learned this skill as kids. Tons of studies have shown kids have a lot less "unstructured play" time than they used to. But then given that stuff is actually harder, I think blaming "stuff is just too expensive" is simply easier. Otherwise it forces you to confront the fact that a lot of this stuff is in your control.

Aurornis 1y ago

> If you want to go hang out with friends it will cost you $4-8 for a cup of coffee. A dinner starts at $50/person. A trip to an amusement park is over $100 easily. The median individual income in the US currently is just over $65k/year or about $32.50/hour. That means half the workforce makes less than that. When an 8oz cocktail costs you an hour of your life because you work for minimum wage, you’d rather stay home and watch TikTok. These comments are so strange to read. There’s an entire world of people out there doing things and socializing without buying cocktails or $100 amusement park tickets to do it. You don’t need to pay anything more than what it takes to get you to someone else or a common meeting spot like a walk through the park. In the fitness world there’s a never ending stream of people who complain that they want to get in shape but can’t afford a $100/month gym membership. When you explain to them that the $20/month budget gym is fine or you can buy some $30 quality running shoes on clearance, they either disappear or get angry because you’ve pierced their excuse for avoiding the activity. I tend to see something similar when you explain that you don’t need to buy $8 coffees or $100 amusement park tickets to socialize with people.

aunty_helen 1y ago
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but those 100$ amusement parks have a lot of budget to advertise and make it seem like they’re the only place to go on your free time. No body is putting up billboards for silent reading clubs so they get drowned out making it appear as if those options aren’t there. Advertising works.
shkkmo 1y ago
> You don’t need to pay anything more than what it takes to get you to someone else or a common meeting spot like a walk through the park. You also need somone to go take that walk with you and the social skills to organize it Yes, it is possible to hangout without spending money. That said, the kind of activities it tends to be easier to get people to agree to go do also tend to cost money. As those activities cost more and more, that decreases the amount of socialization that happens. Sure, some of that shifts to lower cost activities and perhaps that shift increases over time as culture changes. That doesn't mean that rising prices don't explain some of the measured decrease in social activity.

jjulius 1y ago

> A dinner starts at $50/person. I went to dinner with a friend last night and my meal was $22. I go to lunch with coworkers and often only spend ~$15-ish. One also doesn't need to do activities that cost money in order to hang out with people one knows. Get together and play board games or cards. I hung out with my friends last weekend - we brought our records over and DJ'd, someone brought some frozen burgers, I supplied some THC tincture I've had for months, another person brought a cheap bottle of wine they also already had. We had a blast for like seven hours. Hiking is also fantastic, and free!

IgorPartola 1y ago
And that’s my second point. Even if you do things that don’t cost money, the stress of living paycheck to paycheck is going to sap any will to live from most people experiencing it.
- jjulius 1y ago
  As it happens, I live paycheck to paycheck. Prioritizing those moments is how I steer clear from being too stressed. :)
foobarian 1y ago
> my meal was $22 Including tax and tip?
- jjulius 1y ago
  Yup! We went walking through a nearby nature preserve, then went to a fast-casual poke spot. $16 for a large bowl (damn tasty, too!) and a can of green tea, plus 10% tip. It's Oregon, so no tax.

nottorp 1y ago

> When an 8oz cocktail costs you an hour of your life I don't know about that, we meet with a group of friends at someone's house, we all pitch in for the ingredients and make the cocktails ourselves.

Aurornis 1y ago
It feels weird to read all these responses from people who think the only way to socialize is to pay high prices at bars and coffee shops. It’s like how someone who avoids socialization imagines what socialization looks like. I hope some people are reading this thread and realizing it’s not as expensive as they assume to go out and do things. There are many people out there making a fraction of what most readers here do who have no problem finding things to do for socialization.
- waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
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JadoJodo 1y ago

> It is about the crushing stress of surviving in this economic climate that is leaving people absolutely no energy to go and socialize. The past 2-years have been some of the most difficult of my life (for a number of non-work reasons). After work, family, and household tasks, I have often been left with little energy in the evenings (and no real desire to socialize). And yet, as a part of a church men's group I attend weekly, I have had the opportunity to engage with others going through similar things. How do I know that they are going through similar things? Because it's come out when as I've consistently engaged with the same group of people. It's very easy when you're tired and stressed to “turtle” and internalize everything; I've done it more times than I can count. And yet this is the time when I most need others. These guys are not in my friends group, and yet the struggles (and successes) that are shared are sometimes more than I hear from close friends. The result of hearing others' struggles is the realization that a) I am not the only one going through hard stuff, and b) focusing on others' struggles makes dealing with my own easier. “Socializing” with others may cost money, but connecting with them doesn't have to: I spend $0/week meeting the guys in my group for an hour or two. In reflecting on my own attitudes towards socializing in the past, I've come to realize that it can be very self-focused: How can _I_ feel better? How can _I_ have fun? What can _I_ get out of going out? I am, by no means, the arbiter of selflessness (not even close, ha!), but I have learned that connecting with others' with their good in mind has had the incredible effect of giving me energy where there was very little before. Just my $0.02.

tbirdny 1y ago

Yes, money is a huge factor. So is time. You need both. I see these major factors: housing costs, health insurance costs, and the two-income trap. The fact that both people in almost every couple must have a job just to survive and pay for housing makes it so that no one has any time. If couples could survive on a single income, there would be a lot more time to manage the home, support the family, friends, neighbors, and community. Those are social activities that few have time for anymore.

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NoLinkToMe 1y ago

This isn't really borne out by the statistics. Real median personal income has been trending up for a century now, the longest dips (before an upwards trend would ensue) were periods of 5 years of mild deterioration. [0] It also doesn't sit well with my personal anecdata. My life and that of my friends is way better than their parents. I've literally travelled to all major continents in the world for recreational travel by the time mom had only left her village at around 20 years old, for example. Cocktails is just an absurd standard for anything. It's the one item you can buy that is completely and utterly divorced from its costs, its price is a function of how rich people are that this thing is being sold, not how expensive it is to produce a cocktail. 2 cents of sugar and 30 cents of liquor and $15 of branding being sold for $15.50 doesn't mean life is expensive, it means people in this neighbourhood are pretty rich and can throw away money. My mom literally has never had a cocktail in her life yet has had a very socially rich life. Yesterday I spent the day with my brother, we rented a car for $50, drove to another town, had some sandwiches and drinks, we spent $100. Today a friend is coming over to my house and I'll pour him a 20 cent coffee and I'll probably make a snack as well, then we'll go for a walk around town while catching up, maybe grab a $2 beer from the supermarket and some fruit and sit by the water. Total cost <$10 for 6 hours of hanging out for two people. You make about $20 in a supermarket per hour here, so we'd have made $240 of wages in the same six hours. These experiences are mostly similar for me and just as fun, the cost factor is purely a choice. If I didn't have any money they'd all be cheap. [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

rvba 1y ago
I think most people dont meet in houses anymore. Perhaps because they have roommates? And yes I know people in the past had them too. On a side, a thread full of 600k per year FAANG programmers writing that life is easy for everyone is incredibly ironic.
- NoLinkToMe 1y ago
  > I think most people dont meet in houses anymore. Even if that was true (no data offered), that's a choice, not some kind of economic inevitability... And again even if it was true, no it's not because of roommates, the number of people per household has gone down over time, not up, for decades. And no it's also not because we live in smaller homes, the average size of homes has gone up also, for decades. We now have about 2.5x more square footage per-person in our homes than 50 years ago. And we all know that are homes are way more equipped with entertainment than ever before (internet with the world's content at our fingertips, home cinema, home libraries, home music sets etc). As for the 600k FAANG, I've never earned more than 100k, never worked in tech, and grew up on welfare. I've been a bottom 10% of the economic ladder for about 80% of my life, and a top 10% (not top 0.1%) for about 20% of my life. Regardless of background, I think we can speak about facts borne out by the data.