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The thing is, /both people are telling the truth!/ If you read their accounts, they're not especially contradictory. It's not as if she's saying, "he raped me

The thing is, /both people are telling the truth!/ If you read their accounts, they're not especially contradictory. It's not as if she's saying, "he raped me" and he's saying, "no I didn't." It's somewhat subjective, but if you read between the lines, it's clear, and sad all around: pretty.direct is borderline incel, incapable of forming meaningful romantic relationships. But he's not being malicious -- in his view, he's acting in good faith, trying to at least get some consensual action. yifanxing is young and not yet sure how to exist in the world. She believes what people tell her. They had sex, as humans do. She was friendly with him for a time thereafter, but eventually came to regret the act, and then came to see herself as a victim. This was understandably unforseen by him, and the whole episode, though unfortunate, is not really worth all the anguish it has caused everyone.

wulfstan 1y ago
If both people are telling the truth, then it sounds like you're saying that although very sad, a community "gatekeeper" sexually exploiting a vulnerable newcomer is just part of life and we should move past it. I'm not sure I agree with this, and I think we can and should do better.
- 37824912238 1y ago
  Where exactly is the "sexual exploitation" part? He didn't blackmail her, he didn't force her, he didn't offer her favors/status in return for sex. She was not a child, she made her decisions, she regretted them. Yes, there's a power imbalance, but it's not as if this was some sort of Bill Cosby type of situation.
  - lotyrin 1y ago
    I'm not sure if you can't see the power imbalance posed here, or if you just can't see it as a problem, but I don't really care. You need to improve. Too many people (of all genders) see the value that men provide to their potential sex partners as being status and power, and therefore they believe that men should seek to acquire status and power and use these things to bargain for sex. This leads to all kinds of shitty problems like the potential (I don't want to assert that the proposed situation in this comment thread is the actual ground truth) miscommunication we're seeing here where a man has done what society expects of him and a woman comes to be abused and we can't even agree if that's a bad thing. We focus on her "regret" as if consent were ever possible in such a lopsided situation and she's retracted it after the fact. When people talk about the rape culture, this is exactly what they mean. If you see no problems here, you're lost in it.
    - 37824912238 1y ago
      > I'm not sure if you can't see the power imbalance :) Did you read the part of my comment where I said, "Yes, there's a power imbalance..." ? > as if consent were ever possible To say that she could not consent is to infantilize her. At the age of 21, we are responsible for our own decisions and their consequences.
      - lotyrin 1y ago
        I did miss that, I suppose I should have said "underestimate the effect of the power imbalance" then. But you've made it clear you do understand but don't care. You actually think it's justified for an older man to recruit a younger woman, hold his influence in a professional community over her head, suggest that they share a hotel room (making her feel bad for trying to invite a chaperone), suggest that she become intoxicated, and suggest that they have sex? Simply because she accepts this slow erosion of her boundaries and autonomy? Anyone who seeks to be accommodating and accepting by default, who harbors doubts about the intent of others is "responsible for the consequences"? This exact attitude is why women are choosing to default to assuming malice on the part of men, so they don't fall into traps like this. It's extremely ironic when men hold both positions of "they went along with it so it's not my fault" and "it's not fair that women don't trust men". What are your boundaries for what constitutes inappropriate behavior here? Merely the law? Do you not understand that people can decide to create consequences in their social communities that go beyond what is prescribed by law? Law provides free speech but doesn't provide consequence-free speech. That you've chosen a throwaway here is telling, knowing your comments here would have consequences if you were to associate them with your public figure. Consent must be enthusiastic and sober. I'm sorry for men who've never had a woman be excited to have sex with them and who feel that a kind of begrudging intoxicated acceptance is the closest they'll ever get to that. If you're in that category I suggest sex work is significantly more ethical (and less effort).
        37824912238 1y ago
        > You actually think it's justified... Well, I agree it's morally questionable, but it's all a big spectrum. I'm not really trying to say what is or isn't "justified" in the abstract. Both of these people made bad decisions in different ways, and both suffered mighty consequences. > Consent must be enthusiastic and sober If two people each drink a beer and then have sex, did they rape each other? It's just not so black and white.
- jimbokun 1y ago
  What does "gatekeeper" even mean in this scenario? There was no employment relationship, no ability for either party to fire someone or impact pay or job responsibilities. And is "exploiting" synonymous with "having sex with"? You seem to be saying two people in the same community can never have sex, because one or the other will have more power within that community making it exploitative. If not, are the circumstances where it's not problematic?
  - SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
    When you're a new member of a community, you're dedicating a lot of effort to working out its norms and customs. How frank are you in giving feedback? Is it OK to swear? When is it appropriate to go out with the group for dinner or a round of drinks? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions, so you can't reason about them from first principles; you just have to learn by absorption what the community finds normal. As an established member of the community, especially one who routinely organizes events for it, your actions heavily guide that process of absorption. So you can't sleep with anyone in the community until they've been around long enough to understand that the sex has nothing whatsoever to do with community norms. It's not just about whether they think they have to; they have to know that it's not a default, that it's not something a typical community member would do in their shoes, that nobody's going to think they're weird or a prude for turning you down. "Why would anyone think that in the first place?" There really are communities, including big ones that organize events, where sexual access is part of the norm. Everyone knows what's up when a rock star invites you to share his hotel room. You and I understand that the analogy to a programming conference is ridiculous - because we're deeply acculturated into what a programming conference is and what kinds of things are or aren't normal at them.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  She didn’t accuse him of sexually exploiting her though. She accused him of making her uncomfortable after she tried to end their relationship. Having consensual sex is not exploitation.

wulfstan 1y ago

If both people are telling the truth, then it sounds like you're saying that although very sad, a community "gatekeeper" sexually exploiting a vulnerable newcomer is just part of life and we should move past it. I'm not sure I agree with this, and I think we can and should do better.

37824912238 1y ago
Where exactly is the "sexual exploitation" part? He didn't blackmail her, he didn't force her, he didn't offer her favors/status in return for sex. She was not a child, she made her decisions, she regretted them. Yes, there's a power imbalance, but it's not as if this was some sort of Bill Cosby type of situation.
- lotyrin 1y ago
  I'm not sure if you can't see the power imbalance posed here, or if you just can't see it as a problem, but I don't really care. You need to improve. Too many people (of all genders) see the value that men provide to their potential sex partners as being status and power, and therefore they believe that men should seek to acquire status and power and use these things to bargain for sex. This leads to all kinds of shitty problems like the potential (I don't want to assert that the proposed situation in this comment thread is the actual ground truth) miscommunication we're seeing here where a man has done what society expects of him and a woman comes to be abused and we can't even agree if that's a bad thing. We focus on her "regret" as if consent were ever possible in such a lopsided situation and she's retracted it after the fact. When people talk about the rape culture, this is exactly what they mean. If you see no problems here, you're lost in it.
  - 37824912238 1y ago
    > I'm not sure if you can't see the power imbalance :) Did you read the part of my comment where I said, "Yes, there's a power imbalance..." ? > as if consent were ever possible To say that she could not consent is to infantilize her. At the age of 21, we are responsible for our own decisions and their consequences.
    - lotyrin 1y ago
      I did miss that, I suppose I should have said "underestimate the effect of the power imbalance" then. But you've made it clear you do understand but don't care. You actually think it's justified for an older man to recruit a younger woman, hold his influence in a professional community over her head, suggest that they share a hotel room (making her feel bad for trying to invite a chaperone), suggest that she become intoxicated, and suggest that they have sex? Simply because she accepts this slow erosion of her boundaries and autonomy? Anyone who seeks to be accommodating and accepting by default, who harbors doubts about the intent of others is "responsible for the consequences"? This exact attitude is why women are choosing to default to assuming malice on the part of men, so they don't fall into traps like this. It's extremely ironic when men hold both positions of "they went along with it so it's not my fault" and "it's not fair that women don't trust men". What are your boundaries for what constitutes inappropriate behavior here? Merely the law? Do you not understand that people can decide to create consequences in their social communities that go beyond what is prescribed by law? Law provides free speech but doesn't provide consequence-free speech. That you've chosen a throwaway here is telling, knowing your comments here would have consequences if you were to associate them with your public figure. Consent must be enthusiastic and sober. I'm sorry for men who've never had a woman be excited to have sex with them and who feel that a kind of begrudging intoxicated acceptance is the closest they'll ever get to that. If you're in that category I suggest sex work is significantly more ethical (and less effort).
      - 37824912238 1y ago
        > You actually think it's justified... Well, I agree it's morally questionable, but it's all a big spectrum. I'm not really trying to say what is or isn't "justified" in the abstract. Both of these people made bad decisions in different ways, and both suffered mighty consequences. > Consent must be enthusiastic and sober If two people each drink a beer and then have sex, did they rape each other? It's just not so black and white.
jimbokun 1y ago
What does "gatekeeper" even mean in this scenario? There was no employment relationship, no ability for either party to fire someone or impact pay or job responsibilities. And is "exploiting" synonymous with "having sex with"? You seem to be saying two people in the same community can never have sex, because one or the other will have more power within that community making it exploitative. If not, are the circumstances where it's not problematic?
- SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
  When you're a new member of a community, you're dedicating a lot of effort to working out its norms and customs. How frank are you in giving feedback? Is it OK to swear? When is it appropriate to go out with the group for dinner or a round of drinks? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions, so you can't reason about them from first principles; you just have to learn by absorption what the community finds normal. As an established member of the community, especially one who routinely organizes events for it, your actions heavily guide that process of absorption. So you can't sleep with anyone in the community until they've been around long enough to understand that the sex has nothing whatsoever to do with community norms. It's not just about whether they think they have to; they have to know that it's not a default, that it's not something a typical community member would do in their shoes, that nobody's going to think they're weird or a prude for turning you down. "Why would anyone think that in the first place?" There really are communities, including big ones that organize events, where sexual access is part of the norm. Everyone knows what's up when a rock star invites you to share his hotel room. You and I understand that the analogy to a programming conference is ridiculous - because we're deeply acculturated into what a programming conference is and what kinds of things are or aren't normal at them.
HDThoreaun 1y ago
She didn’t accuse him of sexually exploiting her though. She accused him of making her uncomfortable after she tried to end their relationship. Having consensual sex is not exploitation.