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Incredible that you’ve managed to bring this conversation to immigration. In fact, it sounds like you’re saying the root cause of this crappy policy is somehow

Incredible that you’ve managed to bring this conversation to immigration. In fact, it sounds like you’re saying the root cause of this crappy policy is somehow immigrants. Far fetched and not cool.

fennecbutt 1y ago
It's a valid topic for discussion. Even as a foreigner who was in UK on a visa and eventually got ilr I'm still concerned about it. The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable, particularly when it's proven that the majority are not fleeing persecution but are economic migrants. They're taking advantage of a system designed to help people in trouble, how could you defend that? And when does it end? Will the UK always accept small boats ad infinitum? I played by the (harsh) rules and got here legitimately. Why should I have bothered.
- Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
  > It's a valid topic for discussion not on a thread about vpn useage > The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable the current situation regarding small boats is the inevitable conclusion to a badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. Startmer took 5 months in power to talk to France and have them agree to tackle it on their side of the water. Also no brexit, no boats. The anti immigration chest thumpers caused the problem and then scurried like rats. Farage was impossible to be found the year after brexit won, dude aws the face and suddenly wanted to part of the "glory"
  - krona 1y ago
    > badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. How about: 2018 - Sandhurst Treaty 2022 - Interior Ministers’/ Home Secretaries’ joint declaration of November 14th 2023 - UK-France Joint Leaders' Declaration Yes, these did nothing. Starmer's/Macron's joint declaration will also do nothing. If you don't understand why, try starting with the past 204 years of anglo/French relations.
  - mhh__ 1y ago
    One of the topics being censored on twitter is footage of what many would call a side effect of migration.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - hollerith 1y ago
    If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change, we're not going to do it selectively for topics you don't want to see discussed.
    - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
      >If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change This is straight from the guidelines "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. " Bringing up immigration policy in regards to a new internet identification legislation seems less like a "discourageable tangent" and more of an "overt breaking of one of the few enforceable rules of the site"
      - password54321 1y ago
        My advice is to read again and try to understand why it hasn't yet been flagged despite being up for hours with now 60 points.
        Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
        Sure, let me break it down. You attempted to dress up the point about increased survailance (low trust society -> increaed authoritarianism to control low trust society) which is tangentially related to the VPN regulation, in a number of far right buzz words. that gives it enough cover to not count as flamebait or politics, even though it arguably IS both of them and should be removed. The guy below you, whom I replied to, is nowhere as good at dogwhistles as you and straight up brought up the boat conversation, which has 0 to do with vpns and honestly its just "build a wall" but for the sea, a conversation so boringly transplanted from american media is almost not wroth discussing. You bragging about how you manged to say the things you shouldn't by talking around it and how many people either fell for it/or agree with you and know the dogwhistles is not something I would be proud of. Just to be perfectly clear, the far right is surging because the demands of the lower and middle class are ignored, in serving both old money aristocrats, landlords, media moguls and foreign oligarchs all of which are economical leeches. We are in a post Tatcher "there is no society" world, not in some kind of left kumbaya "we are the world" reality. The far right is up because they thrive in dog whistles and anger like you are riling up, good at burning down Reichstags more than building any sort of succesful society.
- ujkiolp 1y ago
  > Why should I have bothered. because you had the privilege to
- hollerith 1y ago
  ilr == indefinite leave to remain.
ifwinterco 1y ago
Immigration is becoming the #1 political issue in the UK for a reason. If they didn't want this, they could have just restricted it and it would have largely gone away as a topic of discussion, but current levels makes it inevitable it will become the main thing people think about
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- teamonkey 1y ago
  It’s a #1 political issue because certain political factions keep leaning on it, constantly, and have done for years.
  - ifwinterco 1y ago
    If this were the case, then you have to explain why other things that are heavily leant on (e.g. global warming, or trans issues just to give two obvious examples) by a large part of the political establishment and mainstream media fail to have much cut through with most of the population. The reason immigration has cut through is it corresponds with people's own direct lived experience. It's not an abstract concept to people, it's visceral and real
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      There are some issues that people are absolutely feeling: housing costs, low wage growth, job losses and unemployment, stress on the NHS, crime, societal change etc. These are very real issues that are causing people pain. Some politicians and certain parts of the media are blaming immigration for all of those issues. There's a constant barrage of talking points on the news and other forms of media. They cut through complex issues and appeal to 'common sense'. People are directly feeling the pain. People are being given a reason for the pain. People feel that reason is the direct cause of their real pain.
- const_cast 1y ago
  It's the #1 issue because the Tories spent 15 years running the economy into the ground and are now trying to blame someone else. It's a power grab - don't look at their piss-poor fiscal policy, it was... uh... immigrants! Please elect us again!
password54321 1y ago
None of these problems live in isolation. It all feeds back to the same system that is driving itself into the ground. The refusal to accept these problems is what is creating a surge in far-right popularity. The very people that oppose them have inadvertently become their biggest cheerleaders.
rubyAce 1y ago
One of the reasons they want to make discourse on the internet as painful as possible is because immigration has become an mainstream concern in the UK. Many of the things that are being soft censored is clips about from the British parliament where this and related issues are being discussed. Just because people like yourself happen to think it is uncouth to discuss, doesn't mean that it isn't part of the equation.
pjc50 1y ago
Everyone always wants to bring it back to immigration, because they've seen US ICE snatch squads and internment camps and decide that they want some of that here.
- Veen 1y ago
  It's very difficult to build a growing economy when you have mass unskilled immigration combined with free healthcare and a generous welfare system.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    Immigrants can't claim welfare, beyond the tiny asylum seeker payment, and the healthcare system is dependent on immigration for staff.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - unethical_ban 1y ago
      The US guarantees ER health services regardless of citizenship or ability to pay. They also get free public education (with all the burdens of being non-english speaking). They pay taxes (in Texas) through gas, property and sales taxes which fund much of the state. Yes, immigrants are a critical component of several industries like healthcare. Legal permanent residency/work visas should be easier for skilled workers who want to work in high demand jobs. And all wealthy nations should be more wary of unlimited, unchecked economic migration by poorer populations. (IOW it's complicated) I think social media is at least as big a cultural weapon against us, and if I had to choose between deport/imprison a small number of business and political leaders who abuse that weapon or four million undocumented US residents, I would choose the former.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        I'm confused, I thought this was about the UK, and the US only got brought up in the sense of people wanting to copy them?
mhh__ 1y ago
Why is it that the only people who have to justify their beliefs are those who are not in favour of enormous demographic, economic, and political change required to facilitate mass immigration?

fennecbutt 1y ago

It's a valid topic for discussion. Even as a foreigner who was in UK on a visa and eventually got ilr I'm still concerned about it. The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable, particularly when it's proven that the majority are not fleeing persecution but are economic migrants. They're taking advantage of a system designed to help people in trouble, how could you defend that? And when does it end? Will the UK always accept small boats ad infinitum? I played by the (harsh) rules and got here legitimately. Why should I have bothered.

Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
> It's a valid topic for discussion not on a thread about vpn useage > The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable the current situation regarding small boats is the inevitable conclusion to a badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. Startmer took 5 months in power to talk to France and have them agree to tackle it on their side of the water. Also no brexit, no boats. The anti immigration chest thumpers caused the problem and then scurried like rats. Farage was impossible to be found the year after brexit won, dude aws the face and suddenly wanted to part of the "glory"
- krona 1y ago
  > badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. How about: 2018 - Sandhurst Treaty 2022 - Interior Ministers’/ Home Secretaries’ joint declaration of November 14th 2023 - UK-France Joint Leaders' Declaration Yes, these did nothing. Starmer's/Macron's joint declaration will also do nothing. If you don't understand why, try starting with the past 204 years of anglo/French relations.
- mhh__ 1y ago
  One of the topics being censored on twitter is footage of what many would call a side effect of migration.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- hollerith 1y ago
  If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change, we're not going to do it selectively for topics you don't want to see discussed.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
    >If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change This is straight from the guidelines "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. " Bringing up immigration policy in regards to a new internet identification legislation seems less like a "discourageable tangent" and more of an "overt breaking of one of the few enforceable rules of the site"
    - password54321 1y ago
      My advice is to read again and try to understand why it hasn't yet been flagged despite being up for hours with now 60 points.
      - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
        Sure, let me break it down. You attempted to dress up the point about increased survailance (low trust society -> increaed authoritarianism to control low trust society) which is tangentially related to the VPN regulation, in a number of far right buzz words. that gives it enough cover to not count as flamebait or politics, even though it arguably IS both of them and should be removed. The guy below you, whom I replied to, is nowhere as good at dogwhistles as you and straight up brought up the boat conversation, which has 0 to do with vpns and honestly its just "build a wall" but for the sea, a conversation so boringly transplanted from american media is almost not wroth discussing. You bragging about how you manged to say the things you shouldn't by talking around it and how many people either fell for it/or agree with you and know the dogwhistles is not something I would be proud of. Just to be perfectly clear, the far right is surging because the demands of the lower and middle class are ignored, in serving both old money aristocrats, landlords, media moguls and foreign oligarchs all of which are economical leeches. We are in a post Tatcher "there is no society" world, not in some kind of left kumbaya "we are the world" reality. The far right is up because they thrive in dog whistles and anger like you are riling up, good at burning down Reichstags more than building any sort of succesful society.
ujkiolp 1y ago
> Why should I have bothered. because you had the privilege to
hollerith 1y ago
ilr == indefinite leave to remain.

ifwinterco 1y ago

Immigration is becoming the #1 political issue in the UK for a reason. If they didn't want this, they could have just restricted it and it would have largely gone away as a topic of discussion, but current levels makes it inevitable it will become the main thing people think about

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
teamonkey 1y ago
It’s a #1 political issue because certain political factions keep leaning on it, constantly, and have done for years.
- ifwinterco 1y ago
  If this were the case, then you have to explain why other things that are heavily leant on (e.g. global warming, or trans issues just to give two obvious examples) by a large part of the political establishment and mainstream media fail to have much cut through with most of the population. The reason immigration has cut through is it corresponds with people's own direct lived experience. It's not an abstract concept to people, it's visceral and real
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    There are some issues that people are absolutely feeling: housing costs, low wage growth, job losses and unemployment, stress on the NHS, crime, societal change etc. These are very real issues that are causing people pain. Some politicians and certain parts of the media are blaming immigration for all of those issues. There's a constant barrage of talking points on the news and other forms of media. They cut through complex issues and appeal to 'common sense'. People are directly feeling the pain. People are being given a reason for the pain. People feel that reason is the direct cause of their real pain.
const_cast 1y ago
It's the #1 issue because the Tories spent 15 years running the economy into the ground and are now trying to blame someone else. It's a power grab - don't look at their piss-poor fiscal policy, it was... uh... immigrants! Please elect us again!

password54321 1y ago

None of these problems live in isolation. It all feeds back to the same system that is driving itself into the ground. The refusal to accept these problems is what is creating a surge in far-right popularity. The very people that oppose them have inadvertently become their biggest cheerleaders.

rubyAce 1y ago

One of the reasons they want to make discourse on the internet as painful as possible is because immigration has become an mainstream concern in the UK. Many of the things that are being soft censored is clips about from the British parliament where this and related issues are being discussed. Just because people like yourself happen to think it is uncouth to discuss, doesn't mean that it isn't part of the equation.

pjc50 1y ago

Everyone always wants to bring it back to immigration, because they've seen US ICE snatch squads and internment camps and decide that they want some of that here.

Veen 1y ago
It's very difficult to build a growing economy when you have mass unskilled immigration combined with free healthcare and a generous welfare system.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Immigrants can't claim welfare, beyond the tiny asylum seeker payment, and the healthcare system is dependent on immigration for staff.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - unethical_ban 1y ago
    The US guarantees ER health services regardless of citizenship or ability to pay. They also get free public education (with all the burdens of being non-english speaking). They pay taxes (in Texas) through gas, property and sales taxes which fund much of the state. Yes, immigrants are a critical component of several industries like healthcare. Legal permanent residency/work visas should be easier for skilled workers who want to work in high demand jobs. And all wealthy nations should be more wary of unlimited, unchecked economic migration by poorer populations. (IOW it's complicated) I think social media is at least as big a cultural weapon against us, and if I had to choose between deport/imprison a small number of business and political leaders who abuse that weapon or four million undocumented US residents, I would choose the former.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      I'm confused, I thought this was about the UK, and the US only got brought up in the sense of people wanting to copy them?

mhh__ 1y ago

Why is it that the only people who have to justify their beliefs are those who are not in favour of enormous demographic, economic, and political change required to facilitate mass immigration?