8 ms·

Destroy cultural integrity, national identity, create a low-trust society, become more authoritarian to manage low-trust society, import more immigrants at an e

Destroy cultural integrity, national identity, create a low-trust society, become more authoritarian to manage low-trust society, import more immigrants at an exponential rate while house costs rise along with unemployment. The list keeps going. This is why far-right is surging on the polls. The country has completely lost all sense.

nindalf 1y ago
Incredible that you’ve managed to bring this conversation to immigration. In fact, it sounds like you’re saying the root cause of this crappy policy is somehow immigrants. Far fetched and not cool.
- fennecbutt 1y ago
  It's a valid topic for discussion. Even as a foreigner who was in UK on a visa and eventually got ilr I'm still concerned about it. The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable, particularly when it's proven that the majority are not fleeing persecution but are economic migrants. They're taking advantage of a system designed to help people in trouble, how could you defend that? And when does it end? Will the UK always accept small boats ad infinitum? I played by the (harsh) rules and got here legitimately. Why should I have bothered.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
    > It's a valid topic for discussion not on a thread about vpn useage > The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable the current situation regarding small boats is the inevitable conclusion to a badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. Startmer took 5 months in power to talk to France and have them agree to tackle it on their side of the water. Also no brexit, no boats. The anti immigration chest thumpers caused the problem and then scurried like rats. Farage was impossible to be found the year after brexit won, dude aws the face and suddenly wanted to part of the "glory"
    - krona 1y ago
      > badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. How about: 2018 - Sandhurst Treaty 2022 - Interior Ministers’/ Home Secretaries’ joint declaration of November 14th 2023 - UK-France Joint Leaders' Declaration Yes, these did nothing. Starmer's/Macron's joint declaration will also do nothing. If you don't understand why, try starting with the past 204 years of anglo/French relations.
    - mhh__ 1y ago
      One of the topics being censored on twitter is footage of what many would call a side effect of migration.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - hollerith 1y ago
      If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change, we're not going to do it selectively for topics you don't want to see discussed.
      - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
        >If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change This is straight from the guidelines "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. " Bringing up immigration policy in regards to a new internet identification legislation seems less like a "discourageable tangent" and more of an "overt breaking of one of the few enforceable rules of the site"
        password54321 1y ago
        My advice is to read again and try to understand why it hasn't yet been flagged despite being up for hours with now 60 points.
  - ujkiolp 1y ago
    > Why should I have bothered. because you had the privilege to
  - hollerith 1y ago
    ilr == indefinite leave to remain.
- ifwinterco 1y ago
  Immigration is becoming the #1 political issue in the UK for a reason. If they didn't want this, they could have just restricted it and it would have largely gone away as a topic of discussion, but current levels makes it inevitable it will become the main thing people think about
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    It’s a #1 political issue because certain political factions keep leaning on it, constantly, and have done for years.
    - ifwinterco 1y ago
      If this were the case, then you have to explain why other things that are heavily leant on (e.g. global warming, or trans issues just to give two obvious examples) by a large part of the political establishment and mainstream media fail to have much cut through with most of the population. The reason immigration has cut through is it corresponds with people's own direct lived experience. It's not an abstract concept to people, it's visceral and real
      - teamonkey 1y ago
        There are some issues that people are absolutely feeling: housing costs, low wage growth, job losses and unemployment, stress on the NHS, crime, societal change etc. These are very real issues that are causing people pain. Some politicians and certain parts of the media are blaming immigration for all of those issues. There's a constant barrage of talking points on the news and other forms of media. They cut through complex issues and appeal to 'common sense'. People are directly feeling the pain. People are being given a reason for the pain. People feel that reason is the direct cause of their real pain.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    It's the #1 issue because the Tories spent 15 years running the economy into the ground and are now trying to blame someone else. It's a power grab - don't look at their piss-poor fiscal policy, it was... uh... immigrants! Please elect us again!
- password54321 1y ago
  None of these problems live in isolation. It all feeds back to the same system that is driving itself into the ground. The refusal to accept these problems is what is creating a surge in far-right popularity. The very people that oppose them have inadvertently become their biggest cheerleaders.
- rubyAce 1y ago
  One of the reasons they want to make discourse on the internet as painful as possible is because immigration has become an mainstream concern in the UK. Many of the things that are being soft censored is clips about from the British parliament where this and related issues are being discussed. Just because people like yourself happen to think it is uncouth to discuss, doesn't mean that it isn't part of the equation.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Everyone always wants to bring it back to immigration, because they've seen US ICE snatch squads and internment camps and decide that they want some of that here.
  - Veen 1y ago
    It's very difficult to build a growing economy when you have mass unskilled immigration combined with free healthcare and a generous welfare system.
    - pjc50 1y ago
      Immigrants can't claim welfare, beyond the tiny asylum seeker payment, and the healthcare system is dependent on immigration for staff.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - unethical_ban 1y ago
        The US guarantees ER health services regardless of citizenship or ability to pay. They also get free public education (with all the burdens of being non-english speaking). They pay taxes (in Texas) through gas, property and sales taxes which fund much of the state. Yes, immigrants are a critical component of several industries like healthcare. Legal permanent residency/work visas should be easier for skilled workers who want to work in high demand jobs. And all wealthy nations should be more wary of unlimited, unchecked economic migration by poorer populations. (IOW it's complicated) I think social media is at least as big a cultural weapon against us, and if I had to choose between deport/imprison a small number of business and political leaders who abuse that weapon or four million undocumented US residents, I would choose the former.
        ben_w 1y ago
        I'm confused, I thought this was about the UK, and the US only got brought up in the sense of people wanting to copy them?
- mhh__ 1y ago
  Why is it that the only people who have to justify their beliefs are those who are not in favour of enormous demographic, economic, and political change required to facilitate mass immigration?
HDThoreaun 1y ago
Very sad to see this from the country that produced some of the most influential pro freedom of speech philosophy the world has ever seen.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Well they also produced pre-totalitarian authors, such as Thomas Hobbes and his advocacy of authoritarian states.
  - u_sama 1y ago
    I think this is the most uncharitable reading and understand of Hobbes that exists. The main argument (and context) is that men is evil and can only live in "civilization" by being forced into it by an absolutely powerful state. The fact this state is a monarchy, a dictatroship or a democracy is not the issue. The fact (in which he is right) a state needs absolute power and monopoly of that power. Modern democracies are a good example, they have the absolute power and thus are more stable and peaceful that warlord controlled pseudo-countries in Africa.
    - Saline9515 1y ago
      From Wikipedia: "The purpose of the commonwealth is peace, and the sovereign has the right to do whatever he thinks necessary for the preserving of peace and security and prevention of discord. Therefore, the sovereign may judge what opinions and doctrines are averse, who shall be allowed to speak to multitudes, and who shall examine the doctrines of all books before they are published." This is an explicit restriction of free speech, in line with what's happening nowadays in the UK. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book)
  - krona 1y ago
    You've confused the concept of an absolute sovereign with this which is control over the private lives of the individual and the family.
12ian34 1y ago
UK needs immigrants to increase stagnating productivity. this has been the case for decades and it's why no government has done, or will do anything serious to curb it.
- primax 1y ago
  I'd rather live through a financial crisis than fascism, thanks.
  - remarkEon 1y ago
    The former can lead to the latter, 50/50 chance though.
- Taurenking 1y ago
  [dead]
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  Then why has productivity never been more stagnant even though immigration has never been higher?
  - cess11 1y ago
    Here are some pointers: https://niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/JC760-NIESR-Outlook-Autumn-2023-UK-Box-B.pdf?ver=50yPiKCH1FE9LZ1R08Zt https://niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/JC760-NIESR-O...
- modo_mario 1y ago
  I don't think that should be the be-all and end-all overriding the natives qualms but regardless.....Is it increasing productivity? In nearby mainland European countries that doesn't appear the case.
- rubyAce 1y ago
  We've had the highest levels of immigration ever in the last five years and productivity hasn't increased proportionally or much at all.
alextingle 1y ago
> The country has completely lost all sense. This is why far-right is surging on the polls. Fixed that for you.
- GlitchRider47 1y ago
  I don't think your modification really changes anything from the original comment.
  - Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
    OP implies that increased far-right polling is one element of the country losing all sense. this response implies that the country has lost ass sense and thus far-right polling has increased as an attempt to get back to sense.
    - alextingle 1y ago
      Um, no. Sensible people don't support the far right. The country has lost all sense, so there are fewer sensible people, so the fools who vote for the far right are on the rise.
      - Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
        i'm not debating your position. i'm clarifying that the rephrasing did have meaning, and explaining to you what that difference is. your politics are none of my business.
        alextingle 1y ago
        I was the one who did the rephrasing. I was clarifying its meaning for you.
        Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
        that's hilarious. well I've been outed as the knob here.
bigbacaloa 1y ago
[dead]
dartharva 1y ago
Sad thing as that the good times are very likely never coming back, and the far-right in power will only make everything worse by bolstering even more tribalism and mistrust among the public.
ujkiolp 1y ago
immigrants are the only way to save this cluster fuck.
- ramon156 1y ago
  I don't really understand this comment. Can you elaborate?
  - ujkiolp 1y ago
    which part?
consumer451 1y ago
I struggle to understand how your comment relates to VPN usage in the UK, in any way. Could you please help me understand the relation?
- pc86 1y ago
  If you believe that this law really is just about protecting our dear sweet children, then they're completely unrelated. But if you really, truly believe that, I'm not sure anything could explain the link simply enough that you'd understand it. So the law isn't about little Johnny wanking it to PornHub. It's about control. It's a government that has proven time and time again the only thing it cares about is more control over the people it should be serving being able to get a little more control. If you already have a faltering cultural and national identity, and immigration - both legal and illegal - is skyrocketing[0][1], it's basically a straight line to see a large cohort of people link the two and and vote for the people saying they will end it. It's also not a remotely "far right" opinion to think that people should not be allowed to come into a country illegally, and if you do come into a country illegally, you should be removed. The idea that this is somehow bad is itself the fringe opinion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Migration_from_1970.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#Illegal_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...
  - consumer451 1y ago
    Reform appears to be on track for a major win in the next UK election. How will they address the problem of the UK nanny state? Looking at the USA: the federal policies are currently as anti-immigrant as possible, and in the US states which support those policies the most, age verification has been passed into law. I fail to see how being anti-immigration, no matter one's opinion on that matter, resolves the basic issue of a nanny state.

nindalf 1y ago

Incredible that you’ve managed to bring this conversation to immigration. In fact, it sounds like you’re saying the root cause of this crappy policy is somehow immigrants. Far fetched and not cool.

fennecbutt 1y ago
It's a valid topic for discussion. Even as a foreigner who was in UK on a visa and eventually got ilr I'm still concerned about it. The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable, particularly when it's proven that the majority are not fleeing persecution but are economic migrants. They're taking advantage of a system designed to help people in trouble, how could you defend that? And when does it end? Will the UK always accept small boats ad infinitum? I played by the (harsh) rules and got here legitimately. Why should I have bothered.
- Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
  > It's a valid topic for discussion not on a thread about vpn useage > The current situation regarding small boats is not sustainable the current situation regarding small boats is the inevitable conclusion to a badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. Startmer took 5 months in power to talk to France and have them agree to tackle it on their side of the water. Also no brexit, no boats. The anti immigration chest thumpers caused the problem and then scurried like rats. Farage was impossible to be found the year after brexit won, dude aws the face and suddenly wanted to part of the "glory"
  - krona 1y ago
    > badly implemented brexit policy and a negligent tory party rule over 13 years. How about: 2018 - Sandhurst Treaty 2022 - Interior Ministers’/ Home Secretaries’ joint declaration of November 14th 2023 - UK-France Joint Leaders' Declaration Yes, these did nothing. Starmer's/Macron's joint declaration will also do nothing. If you don't understand why, try starting with the past 204 years of anglo/French relations.
  - mhh__ 1y ago
    One of the topics being censored on twitter is footage of what many would call a side effect of migration.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - hollerith 1y ago
    If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change, we're not going to do it selectively for topics you don't want to see discussed.
    - Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
      >If we are going to start discouraging tangents on HN, which would be a drastic change This is straight from the guidelines "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. " Bringing up immigration policy in regards to a new internet identification legislation seems less like a "discourageable tangent" and more of an "overt breaking of one of the few enforceable rules of the site"
      - password54321 1y ago
        My advice is to read again and try to understand why it hasn't yet been flagged despite being up for hours with now 60 points.
- ujkiolp 1y ago
  > Why should I have bothered. because you had the privilege to
- hollerith 1y ago
  ilr == indefinite leave to remain.
ifwinterco 1y ago
Immigration is becoming the #1 political issue in the UK for a reason. If they didn't want this, they could have just restricted it and it would have largely gone away as a topic of discussion, but current levels makes it inevitable it will become the main thing people think about
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- teamonkey 1y ago
  It’s a #1 political issue because certain political factions keep leaning on it, constantly, and have done for years.
  - ifwinterco 1y ago
    If this were the case, then you have to explain why other things that are heavily leant on (e.g. global warming, or trans issues just to give two obvious examples) by a large part of the political establishment and mainstream media fail to have much cut through with most of the population. The reason immigration has cut through is it corresponds with people's own direct lived experience. It's not an abstract concept to people, it's visceral and real
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      There are some issues that people are absolutely feeling: housing costs, low wage growth, job losses and unemployment, stress on the NHS, crime, societal change etc. These are very real issues that are causing people pain. Some politicians and certain parts of the media are blaming immigration for all of those issues. There's a constant barrage of talking points on the news and other forms of media. They cut through complex issues and appeal to 'common sense'. People are directly feeling the pain. People are being given a reason for the pain. People feel that reason is the direct cause of their real pain.
- const_cast 1y ago
  It's the #1 issue because the Tories spent 15 years running the economy into the ground and are now trying to blame someone else. It's a power grab - don't look at their piss-poor fiscal policy, it was... uh... immigrants! Please elect us again!
password54321 1y ago
None of these problems live in isolation. It all feeds back to the same system that is driving itself into the ground. The refusal to accept these problems is what is creating a surge in far-right popularity. The very people that oppose them have inadvertently become their biggest cheerleaders.
rubyAce 1y ago
One of the reasons they want to make discourse on the internet as painful as possible is because immigration has become an mainstream concern in the UK. Many of the things that are being soft censored is clips about from the British parliament where this and related issues are being discussed. Just because people like yourself happen to think it is uncouth to discuss, doesn't mean that it isn't part of the equation.
pjc50 1y ago
Everyone always wants to bring it back to immigration, because they've seen US ICE snatch squads and internment camps and decide that they want some of that here.
- Veen 1y ago
  It's very difficult to build a growing economy when you have mass unskilled immigration combined with free healthcare and a generous welfare system.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    Immigrants can't claim welfare, beyond the tiny asylum seeker payment, and the healthcare system is dependent on immigration for staff.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - unethical_ban 1y ago
      The US guarantees ER health services regardless of citizenship or ability to pay. They also get free public education (with all the burdens of being non-english speaking). They pay taxes (in Texas) through gas, property and sales taxes which fund much of the state. Yes, immigrants are a critical component of several industries like healthcare. Legal permanent residency/work visas should be easier for skilled workers who want to work in high demand jobs. And all wealthy nations should be more wary of unlimited, unchecked economic migration by poorer populations. (IOW it's complicated) I think social media is at least as big a cultural weapon against us, and if I had to choose between deport/imprison a small number of business and political leaders who abuse that weapon or four million undocumented US residents, I would choose the former.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        I'm confused, I thought this was about the UK, and the US only got brought up in the sense of people wanting to copy them?
mhh__ 1y ago
Why is it that the only people who have to justify their beliefs are those who are not in favour of enormous demographic, economic, and political change required to facilitate mass immigration?

HDThoreaun 1y ago

Very sad to see this from the country that produced some of the most influential pro freedom of speech philosophy the world has ever seen.

Saline9515 1y ago
Well they also produced pre-totalitarian authors, such as Thomas Hobbes and his advocacy of authoritarian states.
- u_sama 1y ago
  I think this is the most uncharitable reading and understand of Hobbes that exists. The main argument (and context) is that men is evil and can only live in "civilization" by being forced into it by an absolutely powerful state. The fact this state is a monarchy, a dictatroship or a democracy is not the issue. The fact (in which he is right) a state needs absolute power and monopoly of that power. Modern democracies are a good example, they have the absolute power and thus are more stable and peaceful that warlord controlled pseudo-countries in Africa.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    From Wikipedia: "The purpose of the commonwealth is peace, and the sovereign has the right to do whatever he thinks necessary for the preserving of peace and security and prevention of discord. Therefore, the sovereign may judge what opinions and doctrines are averse, who shall be allowed to speak to multitudes, and who shall examine the doctrines of all books before they are published." This is an explicit restriction of free speech, in line with what's happening nowadays in the UK. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book)
- krona 1y ago
  You've confused the concept of an absolute sovereign with this which is control over the private lives of the individual and the family.

12ian34 1y ago

UK needs immigrants to increase stagnating productivity. this has been the case for decades and it's why no government has done, or will do anything serious to curb it.

primax 1y ago
I'd rather live through a financial crisis than fascism, thanks.
- remarkEon 1y ago
  The former can lead to the latter, 50/50 chance though.
Taurenking 1y ago
[dead]
arrowsmith 1y ago
Then why has productivity never been more stagnant even though immigration has never been higher?
- cess11 1y ago
  Here are some pointers: https://niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/JC760-NIESR-Outlook-Autumn-2023-UK-Box-B.pdf?ver=50yPiKCH1FE9LZ1R08Zt https://niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/JC760-NIESR-O...
modo_mario 1y ago
I don't think that should be the be-all and end-all overriding the natives qualms but regardless.....Is it increasing productivity? In nearby mainland European countries that doesn't appear the case.
rubyAce 1y ago
We've had the highest levels of immigration ever in the last five years and productivity hasn't increased proportionally or much at all.

alextingle 1y ago

> The country has completely lost all sense. This is why far-right is surging on the polls. Fixed that for you.

GlitchRider47 1y ago
I don't think your modification really changes anything from the original comment.
- Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
  OP implies that increased far-right polling is one element of the country losing all sense. this response implies that the country has lost ass sense and thus far-right polling has increased as an attempt to get back to sense.
  - alextingle 1y ago
    Um, no. Sensible people don't support the far right. The country has lost all sense, so there are fewer sensible people, so the fools who vote for the far right are on the rise.
    - Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
      i'm not debating your position. i'm clarifying that the rephrasing did have meaning, and explaining to you what that difference is. your politics are none of my business.
      - alextingle 1y ago
        I was the one who did the rephrasing. I was clarifying its meaning for you.
        Tokumei-no-hito 1y ago
        that's hilarious. well I've been outed as the knob here.

bigbacaloa 1y ago

[dead]

dartharva 1y ago

Sad thing as that the good times are very likely never coming back, and the far-right in power will only make everything worse by bolstering even more tribalism and mistrust among the public.

ujkiolp 1y ago

immigrants are the only way to save this cluster fuck.

ramon156 1y ago
I don't really understand this comment. Can you elaborate?
- ujkiolp 1y ago
  which part?

consumer451 1y ago

I struggle to understand how your comment relates to VPN usage in the UK, in any way. Could you please help me understand the relation?

pc86 1y ago
If you believe that this law really is just about protecting our dear sweet children, then they're completely unrelated. But if you really, truly believe that, I'm not sure anything could explain the link simply enough that you'd understand it. So the law isn't about little Johnny wanking it to PornHub. It's about control. It's a government that has proven time and time again the only thing it cares about is more control over the people it should be serving being able to get a little more control. If you already have a faltering cultural and national identity, and immigration - both legal and illegal - is skyrocketing[0][1], it's basically a straight line to see a large cohort of people link the two and and vote for the people saying they will end it. It's also not a remotely "far right" opinion to think that people should not be allowed to come into a country illegally, and if you do come into a country illegally, you should be removed. The idea that this is somehow bad is itself the fringe opinion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Migration_from_1970.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#Illegal_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...
- consumer451 1y ago
  Reform appears to be on track for a major win in the next UK election. How will they address the problem of the UK nanny state? Looking at the USA: the federal policies are currently as anti-immigrant as possible, and in the US states which support those policies the most, age verification has been passed into law. I fail to see how being anti-immigration, no matter one's opinion on that matter, resolves the basic issue of a nanny state.