4 ms·

No but the living conditions were atrocious, dangerous, unsanitary, and probably quite psychologically traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where ad

No but the living conditions were atrocious, dangerous, unsanitary, and probably quite psychologically traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems) Edit: Since HN contrarians who'd never want their children living in some particular conditions find it so confusing how others might not too: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419301796 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01452... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ Overcrowded living quarters is a well known vector for a huge array of problems. Academic underachievement, sexual abuse, substance abuse, mood disorders, abusive relationships, the list goes on. Even after controlling for socioeconomic status!

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
… traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems Sure, to my western/puritanical upbringing that is weird, but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Separate bedrooms, even separate beds are a modern luxury.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  The issue is that we raise kids into this world, and not a different time and place. They grow up to be maladapted to this world.
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    You are suggesting it’s maladapted if they go and do the same thing in their own families later? Why should they care about what the majority thinks is good and normal?
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Because if you need to spend time in a classroom, or a workplace, or form romantic relationships, it's important that you have attitudes that are somewhat in line with meaningful portions of the society around you. Obviously.
- honkycat 1y ago
  i always drag this one out: For a lot of modern history, public hangings were a family affair. Pack up a picnic and go downtown to watch a man hang.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Yes, and that was bad. If you prefer a society free of violence (I do), then exposing people to violence in their daily life is bad.
    - Supermancho 1y ago
      > If you prefer a society free of violence I would prefer to ride a Unicorn to work. This is pure fantasy. There will always be human violence. Preparing children for it is a lost art in sections of the world. In many civilized/industrialized places, these children (sometimes already matured) are immediately traumatized or pretend it is of no consequence through various rationalizations. It's a cycle that repeats in throughout history.
      - CalRobert 1y ago
        We’re currently witnessing what happens when people who know violence works encounter people who think vibes and peaceful protest are effective. I think kids would do well to understand that violence is part of life and how to handle (or use) it.
        camgunz 1y ago
        I think this is about as well as this can be said--failing to teach kids about bad stuff about humanity isn't protecting them, it's failing them.
        CalRobert 1y ago
        My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.
- squigz 1y ago
  > but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Putting aside how true such a claim is... just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues I suspect they had far more important things to worry about - like getting enough food.
    - camgunz 1y ago
      One can have more than one problem.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        If children were traumatized by witnessing their parents having sex, I expect the human race would have failed millennia ago.
        squigz 1y ago
        I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you think that rape and slavery is also not going to affect people? Because those were both pretty prevalent in most of human history too, yet here the human race is - alive, with different views on those things as we did in the past.
        WalterBright 1y ago
        Are you really comparing rape and slavery to seeing your parents having sex?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
renewiltord 1y ago
Everything is traumatizing to these people. Their mother told them to hold the bottle for their baby sister. Oh no, what is this? Is this Parentification, the Source of More Trauma? Despite the fact that the elder sibling would prefer to sleep, perchance to dream-- and there lies the rub! For in that sleep, what trauma comes!
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Do you want your kids to grow up in a single-room household with 4 adults and 8 children?
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    If this were the only way they would exist, then it would not stop me from bringing them into being. My ancestors made the right choice. I will not deny my genetics their legacy. If I choose other conditions, it’s not because of trauma but because comfort is good.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Right, you prefer other conditions because they're better. We have decades of research to show that more space and privacy is not merely a matter of comfort. Or, if it is, that "comfort" affects more things than one would expect. I've already linked to them above.
      - renewiltord 1y ago
        I grew up in conditions you would never countenance and I’m incredibly well adjusted. What value are your systems when they lead to your trauma. You are constantly traumatized and I am not, despite facing conditions you could not believe. Either I am inherently an übermensch or my methods are better. You have your loneliness epidemics, your PTSD, and your therapy. I don’t. Or to put it evocatively: https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46 https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago

… traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems Sure, to my western/puritanical upbringing that is weird, but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Separate bedrooms, even separate beds are a modern luxury.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
The issue is that we raise kids into this world, and not a different time and place. They grow up to be maladapted to this world.
- Aeolun 1y ago
  You are suggesting it’s maladapted if they go and do the same thing in their own families later? Why should they care about what the majority thinks is good and normal?
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Because if you need to spend time in a classroom, or a workplace, or form romantic relationships, it's important that you have attitudes that are somewhat in line with meaningful portions of the society around you. Obviously.
honkycat 1y ago
i always drag this one out: For a lot of modern history, public hangings were a family affair. Pack up a picnic and go downtown to watch a man hang.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Yes, and that was bad. If you prefer a society free of violence (I do), then exposing people to violence in their daily life is bad.
  - Supermancho 1y ago
    > If you prefer a society free of violence I would prefer to ride a Unicorn to work. This is pure fantasy. There will always be human violence. Preparing children for it is a lost art in sections of the world. In many civilized/industrialized places, these children (sometimes already matured) are immediately traumatized or pretend it is of no consequence through various rationalizations. It's a cycle that repeats in throughout history.
    - CalRobert 1y ago
      We’re currently witnessing what happens when people who know violence works encounter people who think vibes and peaceful protest are effective. I think kids would do well to understand that violence is part of life and how to handle (or use) it.
      - camgunz 1y ago
        I think this is about as well as this can be said--failing to teach kids about bad stuff about humanity isn't protecting them, it's failing them.
        CalRobert 1y ago
        My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.
squigz 1y ago
> but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Putting aside how true such a claim is... just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues I suspect they had far more important things to worry about - like getting enough food.
  - camgunz 1y ago
    One can have more than one problem.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      If children were traumatized by witnessing their parents having sex, I expect the human race would have failed millennia ago.
      - squigz 1y ago
        I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you think that rape and slavery is also not going to affect people? Because those were both pretty prevalent in most of human history too, yet here the human race is - alive, with different views on those things as we did in the past.
        WalterBright 1y ago
        Are you really comparing rape and slavery to seeing your parents having sex?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago

renewiltord 1y ago

Everything is traumatizing to these people. Their mother told them to hold the bottle for their baby sister. Oh no, what is this? Is this Parentification, the Source of More Trauma? Despite the fact that the elder sibling would prefer to sleep, perchance to dream-- and there lies the rub! For in that sleep, what trauma comes!

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
Do you want your kids to grow up in a single-room household with 4 adults and 8 children?
- renewiltord 1y ago
  If this were the only way they would exist, then it would not stop me from bringing them into being. My ancestors made the right choice. I will not deny my genetics their legacy. If I choose other conditions, it’s not because of trauma but because comfort is good.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Right, you prefer other conditions because they're better. We have decades of research to show that more space and privacy is not merely a matter of comfort. Or, if it is, that "comfort" affects more things than one would expect. I've already linked to them above.
    - renewiltord 1y ago
      I grew up in conditions you would never countenance and I’m incredibly well adjusted. What value are your systems when they lead to your trauma. You are constantly traumatized and I am not, despite facing conditions you could not believe. Either I am inherently an übermensch or my methods are better. You have your loneliness epidemics, your PTSD, and your therapy. I don’t. Or to put it evocatively: https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46 https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46