4 ms·

In the 1800s, it was commonplace to have 8 children. Did they all lived in huge houses?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sorcerer-mar 1y ago
No but the living conditions were atrocious, dangerous, unsanitary, and probably quite psychologically traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems) Edit: Since HN contrarians who'd never want their children living in some particular conditions find it so confusing how others might not too: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419301796 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01452... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ Overcrowded living quarters is a well known vector for a huge array of problems. Academic underachievement, sexual abuse, substance abuse, mood disorders, abusive relationships, the list goes on. Even after controlling for socioeconomic status!
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
  … traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems Sure, to my western/puritanical upbringing that is weird, but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Separate bedrooms, even separate beds are a modern luxury.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    The issue is that we raise kids into this world, and not a different time and place. They grow up to be maladapted to this world.
    - Aeolun 1y ago
      You are suggesting it’s maladapted if they go and do the same thing in their own families later? Why should they care about what the majority thinks is good and normal?
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Because if you need to spend time in a classroom, or a workplace, or form romantic relationships, it's important that you have attitudes that are somewhat in line with meaningful portions of the society around you. Obviously.
  - honkycat 1y ago
    i always drag this one out: For a lot of modern history, public hangings were a family affair. Pack up a picnic and go downtown to watch a man hang.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Yes, and that was bad. If you prefer a society free of violence (I do), then exposing people to violence in their daily life is bad.
      - Supermancho 1y ago
        > If you prefer a society free of violence I would prefer to ride a Unicorn to work. This is pure fantasy. There will always be human violence. Preparing children for it is a lost art in sections of the world. In many civilized/industrialized places, these children (sometimes already matured) are immediately traumatized or pretend it is of no consequence through various rationalizations. It's a cycle that repeats in throughout history.
        CalRobert 1y ago
        We’re currently witnessing what happens when people who know violence works encounter people who think vibes and peaceful protest are effective. I think kids would do well to understand that violence is part of life and how to handle (or use) it.
        camgunz 1y ago
        I think this is about as well as this can be said--failing to teach kids about bad stuff about humanity isn't protecting them, it's failing them.
        CalRobert 1y ago
        My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.
  - squigz 1y ago
    > but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Putting aside how true such a claim is... just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      > just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues I suspect they had far more important things to worry about - like getting enough food.
      - camgunz 1y ago
        One can have more than one problem.
        WalterBright 1y ago
        If children were traumatized by witnessing their parents having sex, I expect the human race would have failed millennia ago.
        squigz 1y ago
        I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you think that rape and slavery is also not going to affect people? Because those were both pretty prevalent in most of human history too, yet here the human race is - alive, with different views on those things as we did in the past.
        WalterBright 1y ago
        Are you really comparing rape and slavery to seeing your parents having sex?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
- renewiltord 1y ago
  Everything is traumatizing to these people. Their mother told them to hold the bottle for their baby sister. Oh no, what is this? Is this Parentification, the Source of More Trauma? Despite the fact that the elder sibling would prefer to sleep, perchance to dream-- and there lies the rub! For in that sleep, what trauma comes!
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Do you want your kids to grow up in a single-room household with 4 adults and 8 children?
    - renewiltord 1y ago
      If this were the only way they would exist, then it would not stop me from bringing them into being. My ancestors made the right choice. I will not deny my genetics their legacy. If I choose other conditions, it’s not because of trauma but because comfort is good.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Right, you prefer other conditions because they're better. We have decades of research to show that more space and privacy is not merely a matter of comfort. Or, if it is, that "comfort" affects more things than one would expect. I've already linked to them above.
        renewiltord 1y ago
        I grew up in conditions you would never countenance and I’m incredibly well adjusted. What value are your systems when they lead to your trauma. You are constantly traumatized and I am not, despite facing conditions you could not believe. Either I am inherently an übermensch or my methods are better. You have your loneliness epidemics, your PTSD, and your therapy. I don’t. Or to put it evocatively: https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46 https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46
tasty_freeze 1y ago
I was born in 1964 in the midwest US, the 7th out of 8 children. The house was a two story brick structure with five bedrooms and two bathrooms. The house was less than 2000 sq ft, but that included a moldy basement with seepage and jackposts all over the place helping support the sagging joists, so the real living space was closer to 2/3 of that, so 1350 sq ft or so. The house had been built before 1920 when expectations were less grand; those rooms were much smaller than nearly any home I've been in built after 1980. When my grandpa came to visit each summer, it meant all five boys in one room, the two youngest in sleeping bags and occasionally getting stepped on in the middle of the night when one of my older brothers would get up and forget we were there. There was also no air conditioning, nor ceiling fans. My parents had a box fan in their bedroom window during the summer. It was a big deal when the bedroom I shared with my next older brother got a box fan too; that was in high school.
- honkycat 1y ago
  I grew up in the 90s and I agree: I shared a room with my older brother until high school. We shared EVERYTHING. And strangely, it didn't kill us! In fact: it just motivated us to go to sports and clubs and stay out of the house. Obviously less extreme, but I do not understand this "every child must have their own room" thing. They don't! And I grew up in an incredibly poor rural area, imagine living in a city where there was actual shit to do.
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    If you grew up in the zero-interest (or close to it) rates era your parents were likely to have shown you an unrealistic financed lifestyle where everyone could have a big house, several cars and their own room.
- Aeolun 1y ago
  The only thing I can say (having been born in 1988, sharing a slightly smaller house with 4 siblings), is that that sounds reasonable. We all shared rooms and had less than a few square meters to ourselves. It was fine. People these days are too attached to the idea they need massive homes to live their lives.
WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
> In the 1800s, it was commonplace to have 8 children. Did they all lived in huge houses? This is a bit of segue from where we were. To brings us more in line with the topic: In the early 20th century, large and extended families lived in commonly built row housing. Their roomier accommodations were one piece of communities that were more affordable and an overall better fit for larger groups & families (than modern housing and communities).
pram 1y ago
A counter anecdote to all of the others: My father’s parents owned a 3 story house in Ohio, with 8 rooms and a basement. The second/third floor were intended to be rented out if you weren’t using them I guess. I always found this extraordinary because they certainly weren’t rich. I grew up in a 1200sqft house fwiw lol
WalterBright 1y ago
How about people who lived in igloos, tepees, and mud huts? Did they have separate bedrooms for the kids? I seriously doubt that was an issue for them.
- camgunz 1y ago
  There are, you might imagine, other factors involved. Infant and child mortality were super high, but kids were an important source of labor, so people worked to have lots. There was no real birth control or sex ed. Marital rape wasn't a concept. Cultural pressure to have children was stronger than it is now. Etc etc etc.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

No but the living conditions were atrocious, dangerous, unsanitary, and probably quite psychologically traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems) Edit: Since HN contrarians who'd never want their children living in some particular conditions find it so confusing how others might not too: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419301796 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01452... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3805127/ Overcrowded living quarters is a well known vector for a huge array of problems. Academic underachievement, sexual abuse, substance abuse, mood disorders, abusive relationships, the list goes on. Even after controlling for socioeconomic status!

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
… traumatizing (e.g. kids growing up in households where adults would have sex in the same room have all sorts of problems Sure, to my western/puritanical upbringing that is weird, but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Separate bedrooms, even separate beds are a modern luxury.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  The issue is that we raise kids into this world, and not a different time and place. They grow up to be maladapted to this world.
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    You are suggesting it’s maladapted if they go and do the same thing in their own families later? Why should they care about what the majority thinks is good and normal?
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Because if you need to spend time in a classroom, or a workplace, or form romantic relationships, it's important that you have attitudes that are somewhat in line with meaningful portions of the society around you. Obviously.
- honkycat 1y ago
  i always drag this one out: For a lot of modern history, public hangings were a family affair. Pack up a picnic and go downtown to watch a man hang.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Yes, and that was bad. If you prefer a society free of violence (I do), then exposing people to violence in their daily life is bad.
    - Supermancho 1y ago
      > If you prefer a society free of violence I would prefer to ride a Unicorn to work. This is pure fantasy. There will always be human violence. Preparing children for it is a lost art in sections of the world. In many civilized/industrialized places, these children (sometimes already matured) are immediately traumatized or pretend it is of no consequence through various rationalizations. It's a cycle that repeats in throughout history.
      - CalRobert 1y ago
        We’re currently witnessing what happens when people who know violence works encounter people who think vibes and peaceful protest are effective. I think kids would do well to understand that violence is part of life and how to handle (or use) it.
        camgunz 1y ago
        I think this is about as well as this can be said--failing to teach kids about bad stuff about humanity isn't protecting them, it's failing them.
        CalRobert 1y ago
        My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.
- squigz 1y ago
  > but I suspect for the majority of human history: parents have being having sex in very close proximity to their children. Putting aside how true such a claim is... just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > just because something was a thing for most of human history doesn't mean it doesn't cause issues I suspect they had far more important things to worry about - like getting enough food.
    - camgunz 1y ago
      One can have more than one problem.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        If children were traumatized by witnessing their parents having sex, I expect the human race would have failed millennia ago.
        squigz 1y ago
        I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you think that rape and slavery is also not going to affect people? Because those were both pretty prevalent in most of human history too, yet here the human race is - alive, with different views on those things as we did in the past.
        WalterBright 1y ago
        Are you really comparing rape and slavery to seeing your parents having sex?
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
renewiltord 1y ago
Everything is traumatizing to these people. Their mother told them to hold the bottle for their baby sister. Oh no, what is this? Is this Parentification, the Source of More Trauma? Despite the fact that the elder sibling would prefer to sleep, perchance to dream-- and there lies the rub! For in that sleep, what trauma comes!
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Do you want your kids to grow up in a single-room household with 4 adults and 8 children?
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    If this were the only way they would exist, then it would not stop me from bringing them into being. My ancestors made the right choice. I will not deny my genetics their legacy. If I choose other conditions, it’s not because of trauma but because comfort is good.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Right, you prefer other conditions because they're better. We have decades of research to show that more space and privacy is not merely a matter of comfort. Or, if it is, that "comfort" affects more things than one would expect. I've already linked to them above.
      - renewiltord 1y ago
        I grew up in conditions you would never countenance and I’m incredibly well adjusted. What value are your systems when they lead to your trauma. You are constantly traumatized and I am not, despite facing conditions you could not believe. Either I am inherently an übermensch or my methods are better. You have your loneliness epidemics, your PTSD, and your therapy. I don’t. Or to put it evocatively: https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46 https://x.com/pjayevans/status/1612904509575139328?s=46

tasty_freeze 1y ago

I was born in 1964 in the midwest US, the 7th out of 8 children. The house was a two story brick structure with five bedrooms and two bathrooms. The house was less than 2000 sq ft, but that included a moldy basement with seepage and jackposts all over the place helping support the sagging joists, so the real living space was closer to 2/3 of that, so 1350 sq ft or so. The house had been built before 1920 when expectations were less grand; those rooms were much smaller than nearly any home I've been in built after 1980. When my grandpa came to visit each summer, it meant all five boys in one room, the two youngest in sleeping bags and occasionally getting stepped on in the middle of the night when one of my older brothers would get up and forget we were there. There was also no air conditioning, nor ceiling fans. My parents had a box fan in their bedroom window during the summer. It was a big deal when the bedroom I shared with my next older brother got a box fan too; that was in high school.

honkycat 1y ago
I grew up in the 90s and I agree: I shared a room with my older brother until high school. We shared EVERYTHING. And strangely, it didn't kill us! In fact: it just motivated us to go to sports and clubs and stay out of the house. Obviously less extreme, but I do not understand this "every child must have their own room" thing. They don't! And I grew up in an incredibly poor rural area, imagine living in a city where there was actual shit to do.
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  If you grew up in the zero-interest (or close to it) rates era your parents were likely to have shown you an unrealistic financed lifestyle where everyone could have a big house, several cars and their own room.
Aeolun 1y ago
The only thing I can say (having been born in 1988, sharing a slightly smaller house with 4 siblings), is that that sounds reasonable. We all shared rooms and had less than a few square meters to ourselves. It was fine. People these days are too attached to the idea they need massive homes to live their lives.

WarOnPrivacy 1y ago

> In the 1800s, it was commonplace to have 8 children. Did they all lived in huge houses? This is a bit of segue from where we were. To brings us more in line with the topic: In the early 20th century, large and extended families lived in commonly built row housing. Their roomier accommodations were one piece of communities that were more affordable and an overall better fit for larger groups & families (than modern housing and communities).

pram 1y ago

A counter anecdote to all of the others: My father’s parents owned a 3 story house in Ohio, with 8 rooms and a basement. The second/third floor were intended to be rented out if you weren’t using them I guess. I always found this extraordinary because they certainly weren’t rich. I grew up in a 1200sqft house fwiw lol

WalterBright 1y ago

How about people who lived in igloos, tepees, and mud huts? Did they have separate bedrooms for the kids? I seriously doubt that was an issue for them.

camgunz 1y ago
There are, you might imagine, other factors involved. Infant and child mortality were super high, but kids were an important source of labor, so people worked to have lots. There was no real birth control or sex ed. Marital rape wasn't a concept. Cultural pressure to have children was stronger than it is now. Etc etc etc.