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I don't buy that the attack on Steam was just some Australian cult activist groups. This isn't one off event anyway. They're just a distraction. What's urgentl

I don't buy that the attack on Steam was just some Australian cult activist groups. This isn't one off event anyway. They're just a distraction. What's urgently needed is payment neutrality, like net neutrality. It's absurd that the net was discussed more heavily and way earlier than cash.

kelseyfrog 1y ago
Why not? The celebrated it as their own success.
- michaelt 1y ago
  There are also a lot of religious anti-pornography folks in America, and with views on sexuality they are eager to impose on others. I doubt the pressure came from Australia alone. And there's a long history of people taking credit for things they were barely involved with. It would be an awful shame if free-speech-loving Americans' anger at the action American payment processors towards an American game distributor were diverted to some unreachable, unaccountable group on the other side of the world.
  - kelseyfrog 1y ago
    Who is saying that it was AUS alone? The signatories are majority Australian then UK and one or two US depending on how you count (UK working in the US).
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    The majority of the world censors or bans pornography, not just America. In Vietnam, China, Russia, Ukraine, just to name examples, you can go to literal prison for possession, not just pay a fine. Ukraine considers possession alone grounds for up to 3 years. This is despite Vietnam and China all-but-requiring atheism to run for positions. I think this is sufficient to show there are plenty of non-religious reasons to refuse involvement. Framing pornography as a purely religious issue is a misdirection.
    - creer 1y ago
      That's an interesting and useful observation (and now I'm curious about the origin in Vietnam and China). But it does not follow from that that US credit card providers' position is not grounded in religion.
- numpad0 1y ago
  I always wondered how it was like to live in 70s with bombs going off in random corners of utopias and random backwater fundamentalist groups claiming responsibilities. That journey of mine is now over.
- creer 1y ago
  In the world of propaganda, every success is your success.
minraws 1y ago
Wasn't Crypto supposed to solve this like a decade ago? Genuinely curious, as a 20 something, software developer who never understood why we don't have decentralized/globally neutral payments/transactions systems like internet. Though for most of my life internet has been getting more and more centralized. At least everything outside of China is centralized almost entirely in US these days. Rather sad reality of things, but what can we do heh...
- anon191928 1y ago
  why we don't have neutral transaction has many reasons. tech might not be there to scale millions of transactions without central server. other reasons are heavy payment regulations, human habits, fraud, network effects and more. tech does not fully solve it.
- numpad0 1y ago
  Transaction throughput is nonexistent for cryptos. The money arrives when it arrives. Some frameworks within crypto solves it by trusting known signatures skipping the oft mentioned consensus building, I suppose that has its downsides considering they're not so popular.
- drdaeman 1y ago
  It was supposed to be a decentralized digital cash, but we collectively turned it into some weird abomination. Nowadays, if you say "crypto" people will think of investments, scams, transfers that sidestep various sanctions and regulations, risks - anything but a decent payment method. It's sad, but that's what happened.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    Crypto was always a stupid name anyway because people confuse it with cryptography. Come up with a different name for the thing where you use it as a digital payments system instead of a speculative bubble machine.
    - beeflet 1y ago
matthewaveryusa 1y ago
All we need is fast ACH (seconds, even low minutes will do) with no charge back. From there you can develop single-charge ephemeral accounts and you're good to go. Sadly crypto will get us there faster. It just speaks volumes that a pseudo decentralized solution will beat the logical and easier centralized solution because of misaligned incentives
- daveguy 1y ago
  And then you can have untrackable and irreversible scams, money laundering and ransomware without the crypto? Yay?
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    "Transaction is irreversible via automated system" and "transaction is irreversible via court order" are two different things. The first is a problem when you have merchants that legitimately provided a service (e.g. adult content, buying fungible commodities that themselves can't be clawed back) because customers issue chargebacks against merchants that didn't scam them, e.g. because the spouse disputes a charge for adult content that the person who made the purchase doesn't want to admit to buying. But the second is the thing you need to prevent scams and ransomware.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - eviks 1y ago
    You already have all of that now without the benefits for regular use
    - daveguy 1y ago
      Sorry, but you are incorrect. Most payment systems today can be tracked and reversed. Crypto will too, after it becomes well regulated, and then it will lose its appeal and crash. No one wants to mess with some convoluted cryptography based money system if they don't have to.
bsder 1y ago
> What's urgently needed is payment neutrality, like net neutrality. I thought the EU was working on digital cash? What is the status of that?
- Muromec 1y ago
  From what I heard It's a scaleup of Dutch IDEAL, which is a wrapper around SEPA. End user scans a QR code generated by a merchant with their bank app and everything magically works, including sharing the address. Bank app shows the amount and merchant name on the screen before approving and merchant gets the confirmation right away. I having used VISA/Mastercard network that much for years because IDEAL exists. Haven't heard about the EU version of it being anywhere in the works and I work in places where I should hear it. https://wero-wallet.eu/ https://wero-wallet.eu/
  - subscribed 1y ago
    Sharing the address? With the merchant? Does that mean that every random shop i buy in has now my home address? Nightmare.
    - Muromec 1y ago
      Merchants have to deliver their stuff somewhere and put something in the invoice, so of course. Literally what pay pal was doing since forever too, just more federated and standard-based. Since it's EU with it's data minimization principles and privacy boner, of course they though about a checkbox to not share the address when not needed and argued about the default behavior in various committees for about half a year at least.
averageRoyalty 1y ago
I assume you're referring to this[0]. I had to go searching. I do buy it. Collective Shout, Mad Fucking Witches and others have all been trying to cancel media personalities and companies for years by appealing to the advertisers, especially effective in traditional media where they money is drying up. They're hardly a fly by night group, and it's not their first time appealing to payment processors. 0. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/400-video-games-with-rape-incest-child-abuse-pulled-from-steam/news-story/28e651d3150f4df32539fe7ae9be589b https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/400-vi...

kelseyfrog 1y ago

Why not? The celebrated it as their own success.

michaelt 1y ago
There are also a lot of religious anti-pornography folks in America, and with views on sexuality they are eager to impose on others. I doubt the pressure came from Australia alone. And there's a long history of people taking credit for things they were barely involved with. It would be an awful shame if free-speech-loving Americans' anger at the action American payment processors towards an American game distributor were diverted to some unreachable, unaccountable group on the other side of the world.
- kelseyfrog 1y ago
  Who is saying that it was AUS alone? The signatories are majority Australian then UK and one or two US depending on how you count (UK working in the US).
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  The majority of the world censors or bans pornography, not just America. In Vietnam, China, Russia, Ukraine, just to name examples, you can go to literal prison for possession, not just pay a fine. Ukraine considers possession alone grounds for up to 3 years. This is despite Vietnam and China all-but-requiring atheism to run for positions. I think this is sufficient to show there are plenty of non-religious reasons to refuse involvement. Framing pornography as a purely religious issue is a misdirection.
  - creer 1y ago
    That's an interesting and useful observation (and now I'm curious about the origin in Vietnam and China). But it does not follow from that that US credit card providers' position is not grounded in religion.
numpad0 1y ago
I always wondered how it was like to live in 70s with bombs going off in random corners of utopias and random backwater fundamentalist groups claiming responsibilities. That journey of mine is now over.
creer 1y ago
In the world of propaganda, every success is your success.

minraws 1y ago

Wasn't Crypto supposed to solve this like a decade ago? Genuinely curious, as a 20 something, software developer who never understood why we don't have decentralized/globally neutral payments/transactions systems like internet. Though for most of my life internet has been getting more and more centralized. At least everything outside of China is centralized almost entirely in US these days. Rather sad reality of things, but what can we do heh...

anon191928 1y ago
why we don't have neutral transaction has many reasons. tech might not be there to scale millions of transactions without central server. other reasons are heavy payment regulations, human habits, fraud, network effects and more. tech does not fully solve it.
numpad0 1y ago
Transaction throughput is nonexistent for cryptos. The money arrives when it arrives. Some frameworks within crypto solves it by trusting known signatures skipping the oft mentioned consensus building, I suppose that has its downsides considering they're not so popular.
drdaeman 1y ago
It was supposed to be a decentralized digital cash, but we collectively turned it into some weird abomination. Nowadays, if you say "crypto" people will think of investments, scams, transfers that sidestep various sanctions and regulations, risks - anything but a decent payment method. It's sad, but that's what happened.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  Crypto was always a stupid name anyway because people confuse it with cryptography. Come up with a different name for the thing where you use it as a digital payments system instead of a speculative bubble machine.
  - beeflet 1y ago

matthewaveryusa 1y ago

All we need is fast ACH (seconds, even low minutes will do) with no charge back. From there you can develop single-charge ephemeral accounts and you're good to go. Sadly crypto will get us there faster. It just speaks volumes that a pseudo decentralized solution will beat the logical and easier centralized solution because of misaligned incentives

daveguy 1y ago
And then you can have untrackable and irreversible scams, money laundering and ransomware without the crypto? Yay?
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  "Transaction is irreversible via automated system" and "transaction is irreversible via court order" are two different things. The first is a problem when you have merchants that legitimately provided a service (e.g. adult content, buying fungible commodities that themselves can't be clawed back) because customers issue chargebacks against merchants that didn't scam them, e.g. because the spouse disputes a charge for adult content that the person who made the purchase doesn't want to admit to buying. But the second is the thing you need to prevent scams and ransomware.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- eviks 1y ago
  You already have all of that now without the benefits for regular use
  - daveguy 1y ago
    Sorry, but you are incorrect. Most payment systems today can be tracked and reversed. Crypto will too, after it becomes well regulated, and then it will lose its appeal and crash. No one wants to mess with some convoluted cryptography based money system if they don't have to.

bsder 1y ago

> What's urgently needed is payment neutrality, like net neutrality. I thought the EU was working on digital cash? What is the status of that?

Muromec 1y ago
From what I heard It's a scaleup of Dutch IDEAL, which is a wrapper around SEPA. End user scans a QR code generated by a merchant with their bank app and everything magically works, including sharing the address. Bank app shows the amount and merchant name on the screen before approving and merchant gets the confirmation right away. I having used VISA/Mastercard network that much for years because IDEAL exists. Haven't heard about the EU version of it being anywhere in the works and I work in places where I should hear it. https://wero-wallet.eu/ https://wero-wallet.eu/
- subscribed 1y ago
  Sharing the address? With the merchant? Does that mean that every random shop i buy in has now my home address? Nightmare.
  - Muromec 1y ago
    Merchants have to deliver their stuff somewhere and put something in the invoice, so of course. Literally what pay pal was doing since forever too, just more federated and standard-based. Since it's EU with it's data minimization principles and privacy boner, of course they though about a checkbox to not share the address when not needed and argued about the default behavior in various committees for about half a year at least.

averageRoyalty 1y ago

I assume you're referring to this[0]. I had to go searching. I do buy it. Collective Shout, Mad Fucking Witches and others have all been trying to cancel media personalities and companies for years by appealing to the advertisers, especially effective in traditional media where they money is drying up. They're hardly a fly by night group, and it's not their first time appealing to payment processors. 0. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/400-video-games-with-rape-incest-child-abuse-pulled-from-steam/news-story/28e651d3150f4df32539fe7ae9be589b https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/400-vi...