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You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. The more interesting question is why these cars disapp

• radicaldreamer 1y ago
  Spot on. most cars sold in the US are actually light trucks.
  • Propelloni 1y ago
    Not to mention that those subcompacts of today are as large as a compact car of 30 years ago.
• troupo 1y ago
  Small cars are disappearing in the EU as well. E.g. Audi will discontinue (or have already discontinued) their A1 model (and it was the perfect little car).
  • yourusername 1y ago
    The smallest class like the Daihatsu Cuore are already gone. The small cars that are left are significantly larger than the former version that shared the same nameplate. For example the Yaris is a SUV now. Can't really blame the manufacturers. The EU requires so much equipment on cars that you can't really turn a profit on a $10k car (like the Aygo/C1/107 was ~10 years ago). So if your car is going to cost $20k because of all the stuff it has to have it might as well be a bit bigger.
    • ricardobeat 1y ago
      I’m not quite sure the safety equipment is to blame. Modern cars coming out of China go well beyond regulations, while still having great a price/features ratio. Even very cheap cars like the “Dongfeng Box” have multiple airbags, emergency braking, lane keeping, etc, and safe to assume a lot of the components VW/Toyota use for these come from the same chinese suppliers.
  • nicholassmith 1y ago
    Renault at least are keeping the small car flame alive with the 5 and a new version of the Twingo. Audi's product strategy at the moment seems to be "try everything and pivot" so they might even end up relauching the A2 by accident.
  • Cthulhu_ 1y ago
    VAG cars are weird, I've had both an Audi A1 and a VW Up (short lease for work); they are basically the same car, both had a 3 cylinder, 1 liter engine, similar interiors, etc. But the A1 had the sports look package and generally a fancier feel to it. But VAG uses the same base for a lot of models and brands (VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT); quality wise there's not much difference between them, but price wise they are, with Skoda being the 'budget' brand and Audi the premium. They also own Porsche but I don't know if they use the same base, I presume not... even though with the amount of Cayennes you see on the road here they sell Porsches at similar rates as upmarket VW / Audi cars.
    • gmac 1y ago
      Yep. I think SEAT are the pick of the VAG brands. Their marketing isn't about being cheap, but they're aimed at the youngest market segment, who also have the least money, so in my experience have the best prices. Pre-COVID we got a new Leon ST — essentially a Golf estate/station wagon — for about a third off the list price: £13K instead of £20K (I know: those prices sound semi-mythical now). On the other end you have Audi, whose premise seems to be: "So you want a VW, but you want to pay hugely over the odds for it? Certainly sir, step right this way."
      • leansensei 1y ago
        That's the VAG marketing strategy. Share most parts, have the customer pay for the brand.
        • blitzar 1y ago
          Wait till you hear about the parts on a lamborghini
          • cpursley 1y ago
            What’s funny is the VW parts used in Lambos are actually an improvement over what they used to be.
        • 1y ago
• rmnwski 1y ago
  Also, the more SUVs are driven, the less safe people feel (and arguably are), accelerating the need to buy an SUV for safety reasons.
  • amelius 1y ago
    On the other hand, if you kill someone in a traffic accident, you feel shit the rest of your life.
    • names_are_hard 1y ago
      This is true. On the other hand, if you get killed in a car accident... You also feel shit the rest of your life.
      • amelius 1y ago
        But at least you didn't waste $ on a big car.
        • alias_neo 1y ago
          If you had spent it, you might still be alive, and if you aren't, it's hardly wasted, since you no longer need it. Jokes aside, I live in the UK, and occasionality I see vehicles here that are entirely too big and unnecessary for our roads. There was a lady driving what I think was a Defender 130 (I don't know modern LRs too well), it was far too big for the parking spaces in the tiny car park we were in, she could only just see over the steering wheel, and she had no chance of seeing my 5yo child I was walking back to my car with; who's quite tall for 5 but didn't reach over the height of the bonnet.
          • amelius 1y ago
            > If you had spent it, you might still be alive, and if you aren't, it's hardly wasted, since you no longer need it. Only if you crash right after you bought the car ...
• Dig1t 1y ago
  Isn’t your argument basically saying that people choose to buy larger cars when the government doesn’t step in and penalize people for doing so? European regulators basically just forcing people to buy smaller cars is what that sounds like. Also Europeans make less money, pay more taxes, and have less access to credit, so they can’t afford more expensive cars like many Americans. Hence the market catering more to people less willing to spend a lot of money on a car. The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France.
  • SirHumphrey 1y ago
    It's also roads. On narrower roads smaller cars feel better and you have a lot more narrow roads in Europe.
  • dtech 1y ago
    No, US also has rules for cars. It just has much more stringent rules for smaller cars, so SUVs and trucks have an unfair advantage. It's like if smaller cars are taxed at 30% and larger cars at 10%, of course there are going to be more large cars compared to a place that taxes both at 30% or 10%.
  • yugoslavia4ever 1y ago
    > The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France. GDP and its consequences has been a disaster for the human race
  • oreilles 1y ago
    > The poorest American state, Mississippi, is richer per-capita than most European countries, including France. The state, maybe. The missisipian, not so much - considering their Human Development Index is right in between that of Hungary and Bulgaria, at the very bottom of the EU. How great is it to be able to buy expansive cars if you can't get access to education, healthcare, retirement, and will find yourself in the street if you lose your job.
    • Amezarak 1y ago
• epolanski 1y ago
  > like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia Few caveats: - those are generally promotional prices - those prices are generally tied to financing (you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates) - you can wait for the car even 10 months
  • svacko 1y ago
    This depends on the EU country, I've just checked official Skoda site for our country and I found brand new 157 Skoda Fabia models available for the same day pickup below 20k without any special financing (from these 85 below 18k, and 22 below 16k)
  • benhurmarcel 1y ago
    > (you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates) Often the case, but then you can get the loan and pay it off immediately for a fee.
  • mrweasel 1y ago
    Looking up the Clio and it's $31,500 / €27,000, but that's partly due to the taxes on cars where. I'd guess however that you almost can't buy it. The pricing is meant to hit a price point, in this case just below 200.000DKK. That's a promotional price, chance are that very few cars, if any, with that base package, have ever been made or imported. You can probably get it, but you'd have to wait a few months for it.
  • haspok 1y ago
    Don't forget about Dacia, which is Renault's cheaper brand. You can even buy a Spring EV for under 20k - quality is what you'd expect, but for many people it is not an issue.
  • OtherShrezzing 1y ago
    > those prices are generally tied to financing (you really can't buy it cash at those prices, you need to finance it through them at crazy 7/8%+ rates) I can't talk for the rest of the continent, but in the UK we've got "price on the road" advertising laws here. So if you turn up to a dealership with £20k and ask for a new car that's advertised at £20k, you'll be sold a car for £20k in cash. The dealer might try to up-sell you for financing, but you can just say "I'm paying in cash, and I don't want any extras", and they'll complete the payment & paperwork in record time so that they're able to move onto a more profitable financed sale elsewhere.
• whatevaa 1y ago
  They are disappearing in europe too. Emissions and other required by law equipment costs just as much on cheap car as it does on expensive one. At some point, cheap cars stop beinf cheap, just a bit cheaper but with way worse quality, so they stop making sense.
  • A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive. But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new. My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or BMW at 2-3x the price. If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car.
    • gmac 1y ago
      There are cheaper European cars than VW (and why compare with their 'average mid-range offering'?). The new (and widely liked) Renault 5 EV starts at around €21K, for instance. Probably a bit smaller than something made in China for the same money, but not worlds apart. https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/r5-e-tech-electrique/pre-configurateur.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/r5-e-tech-elect...
      • A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
        > why compare with their 'average mid-range offering'? Because when it comes to features and trim, the average Geely or BYD is essentially on that level (or better). They tend to be quite large and very polished. It's certainly true that Renault has some inexpensive models -- the Clio is another one that can be had for ~20k EUR -- but they are indeed small.
      • holowoodman 1y ago
        Yes, you can buy a Dacia for below 20kEur, but even those have gotten far more expensive lately. It used to be that around 10 years ago, a Dacia Logan (typical station wagon family car) could be had for 11kEur. Nowadays the comparable Dacia Duster (SUV instead of station wagon, but somewhat similar slightly smaller internal space) will set you back 18kEur. Most of this price hike is claimed to come from mandatory electronics like eCall, collision avoidance, fatigue sensors, more complex bodywork due to crash requirements, as well as more complex engines due to emission controls. With your quoted Renault EV models, you really have to be careful, often they don't give the full price but just the price without battery. The battery has to be bought or rented separately.
• dismalaf 1y ago
  Because a big part of owning a vehicle is summer roadtrips, ski vacations, visiting family, moving stuff. An SUV is simply more convenient. I've also found road maintenance is getting worse where I live, it's almost necessary having an SUV or truck just to navigate the suburbs. Also the (semi) compact crossover has kind of killed the compact car. You get more space, better ground clearance, for a decent price.
  • CalRobert 1y ago
    What you don’t mention are the increased negative externalities of your larger vehicle, including a higher chance of killing people, more road space used for parking, worse visibility for others, etc.
    • lostlogin 1y ago
      But mentioned: the increased road damage by heavier vehicles. The Forth Power Law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law
    • potato3732842 1y ago
      I'll be sure to let my elderly mother know she's making society worse by going with the HRV instead of the Civic. In a world where ~half of all SUVs are some poof-ed up variant of a compact car a nuance free opinion like yours is just insufferable.
      • CalRobert 1y ago
        Yet you suffer it. And yes, your mother is more likely to kill someone in a larger, heavier, vehicle. I don’t see how anything you said refutes that.
        • potato3732842 1y ago
          It's not like she bought a 4Runner or Suburban. She bought a Honda compact car that's been stretched on the vertical access. We all spend the 2000s listening to the "they're less safe because they roll over more" screeching broken record and while statistically that was true to an extent nothing really came of it, everyone decided that yeah they do but they like the tradeoff. You just sound like a 2020s cover of that. Why ought I to take your hand wringing seriously?
• huntertwo 1y ago
  You mean 23k usd? Corolla is 22k msrp i.e under 20k euro. Nissan versa is 20k msrp. Then account for the fact that Americans have higher income than Europeans.
  • TuringNYC 1y ago
    I found that saving money on the car helps a bit, but not much -- the insurance costs are usually the dominant factor. Almost no one here seems to be talking about that.
• presentation 1y ago
  Or get a new simple Kei car in Japan for $9500 https://autoc-one.jp/daihatsu/move/newmodel-5030993/ https://autoc-one.jp/daihatsu/move/newmodel-5030993/
  • bschwindHN 1y ago
    I bought a used 2015 Daihatsu Move for $3000 last year, I love it. It has physical controls for everything except the windows and mirrors (I mean, still physical controls, but those are hooked up to motors). And it also has a simple stereo with USB audio. Gets incredible gas mileage. Perfect.
• paganel 1y ago
  > You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. They're also on their out around these parts, very unfortunately.
  • madduci 1y ago
    Fiat has just announced and produced the Panda, which is also a cheap vehicle. Also the Tipo was very cheap (15-20k) and Dacia makes also cheap, but good cars. I still don't understand the urge in the US to own a Truck at any cost
    • 9rx 1y ago
      > I still don't understand the urge in the US to own a Truck at any cost Prior to the pandemic's impact on prices, trucks generally offered better TCO. I struggle to imagine that still holds true in the current landscape, but the shift has happened recently enough that we don't really have a good picture of what the total cost is over a sufficiently long period in light of how the world has changed. So, right now, amid many unknowns, people are gambling on the past being indicative of the future. They might get burned hard, or they might come out smiling in the end. Time will tell. When it does, and assuming it shows that the TCO benefit is no longer there, you will start to see movement away from them. People aren't completely irrational – but they are slow.
• potato3732842 1y ago
  What a counterproductive comment in a world where the average SUV is something a lot closer in qualities to a traditional car than a traditional SUV. Ford's linup is a great example how you people harping on SUVs actively detract from the discussion. What you call the Flex, the Ecosport and the C-max doesn't really matter. They're obviously by virtue of their attributes much closer to a "car" than they are to a traditional truck-ish SUV. Every OEM's lineup has examples of this (Honda Crosstour anyone?). The OEMs could make these things very cheaply if they wanted, look at the Maverick, a brand new model debuting at 25k. But they don't, why?
  • Orygin 1y ago
    Do you consider a Ford Flex to not be a SUV ? Thing's huge and most other example you provided are either clearly SUV or are bigger than they need to be to be a "normal" car.
    • potato3732842 1y ago
      The Flex is close to identical in form factor and size to a pre-oil crisis station wagon. Probably has less ground clearance too. It takes the honesty of a professional political to call it an SUV.
      • campl3r 1y ago
        I got no good frame of reference, but google seems to suggest it's around 13% bigger than a typical station wagon. How is this car not considered a massive SUV?
        • Orygin 1y ago
          This thing is so huge, I cannot comprehend the American carbrain if it's considered "average" for them
      • Orygin 1y ago
        Are you comparing to the car market of 50 years past to justify a vehicle that is more akin to a tank than a modern regular car? Like you say, the term itself is meaningless but it does encompass the current class of vehicles that are needlessly big, heavy, and so high of the ground that some tanks literally have better forward vision than those SUVs. I don't really care what Americans drove 50 years ago, I care that most cars sold here (EU) are way oversized for practically no reason that the consumer cares about.
• AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  > I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison. This has become the irrelevant part because "does it have an electric motor in the powertrain" has become more important to fuel economy than vehicle size. There are hybrid SUVs that get better MPG than non-hybrid sedans, to say nothing of the full electric ones. Which is another reason the average price is increasing. Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price. People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. But then the market for lower priced new cars declines, because the people who can afford a new car can afford to pay a little extra for long-term savings and most of the people who can't afford to do that were buying used to begin with.
  • Ray20 1y ago
    >People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock. Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two years resell it and buy brand new car, even then hybrids looses comparatively big percent of its original cost. So people that buys hybrids, usually CAN NOT do the math.
    • smeej 1y ago
      I thought the Toyota Prius had been winning lowest TCO contests since it came out. I'm still driving my '07, and yeah, it's finally time to look at replacing it, but it's 18 years old and has almost a quarter million miles on it. Maintaining it hasn't been noticeably more expensive than, say, the older Civics I drove before it.
    • Retric 1y ago
      That’s not been my experience. Hybrids have several major advantages on the maintenance side. Regenerative braking means brakes need to be replaced far less often and keeping the engine off so frequently means it gets far less ware in city driving. Electric motors outlast the vehicle, and significant battery degradation only results in slightly worse fuel economy.
• BirAdam 1y ago
  Honestly, there are two different main drivers of US automobile pricing. The first was a combination of fuel efficiency and safety regulations that when combined were difficult to meet. One side effect is that all vehicles got larger so they could be in a different vehicle class and therefore have a lower fuel efficiency standard, and then in other cases the engines were made smaller with turbos added to make up the horsepower loss. The second driving force is just consumer expectations. Many companies did make cheaper vehicles that still met the regulatory burdens and people simply didn't want them. With inflation pressures, layoffs, and other downward pricing pressures, we should expect consumer preferences to change, but I also expect that the global vehicle fleet will continue to age (especially as most vehicles are of sufficient quality that they needn't be replaced).
• wodenokoto 1y ago
  Even in Denmark, which has over 100% tax on cars, you can get a new vehicle for $20k