22 ms·

It's not so much them being a theocracy IMHO. It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. Put those Israeli shoes on. The

by simonh 1y ago

It's not so much them being a theocracy IMHO. It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. Put those Israeli shoes on. There's a state armed with ballistic missiles in easy range of you, they have the facilities necessary to enrich weapons grade Uranium, recently acquired more advanced centrifuges, they have the uranium already enriched far beyond what's necessary for civilian use, they have far more of it than they credibly need for such civilian use, and they believe god has ordered them to destroy you. How well would you sleep at night?

tharmas 1y ago
Israel has nukes, so why would they be afraid of Iran?
- dismalaf 1y ago
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  - lostlogin 1y ago
    Would they? How would they deliver it? If they were caught trying to do it, what would happen? Why is an Iranian weapon somehow different do one held by any other country? Countries with them usually don’t use them, and the one that has is attacking Iran.
- snapetom 1y ago
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  - throw310822 1y ago
    I don't think you realise how ignorant and racist is this idea that an entire religion and country of 90 million doesn't behave like normal human beings.
    - raffraffraff 1y ago
      Have you lived in Iran? It's not a whole country of 90 million people who will shout "Push the button!". Most of them are unwillingly imprisoned under a regime lead by the religious zealots who will push that button, even if it means destruction of themselves and their population. Or at least, that's the assumption that the west must make, based their religious views and their past rhetoric.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        Which is their past rhetoric? As for their religious views, hasn't their supreme leader declared multiple times that nuclear weapons are prohibited by their religion?
        raffraffraff 1y ago
        So they're definitely not building nuclear weapons.
        throw310822 1y ago
        By your same logic.
    - throw2235 1y ago
      [dead]
    - ta12653421 1y ago
      There was a very interesting "street walk video" by a somewhat-famous travelling-blogger, he visited Afghanistan, talked to a lot of people, created a lot of footage of their daily life, asking about the regime etc. This video got blocked after publishing by a political action group / NGO, it came back online only after dozens of other YouTube channels reported that. And yes - this video depicted life of people in a theocracy ;-)
      - 1y ago
  - asadm 1y ago
    You are wrong. Muslims don't wake up trying to get martydom asap. Protecting life (own included) is top-most goal, so much that even harming your body (tattoos etc) is strictly prohibited.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    Isn't christianity the one that has martyrdom at its core? Jesus was martyred for our sins after all. Christians can’t really be trusted not to sacrifice themselves at the drop of a roman helmet. Or not. Perhaps, we understand the nuances of that because we were raised in a christian culture, but don’t understand the nuances of martyrdom in islam because we weren’t raised in a muslim culture? I know that’s true for me, i assume that’s true for any non-muslim who claims stuff about the core of islam.
  - Alex-C137 1y ago
    This is an extremely insane take and should be deleted immediately. Disgusting
    - snapetom 1y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid Stop being so naive.
  - kergonath 1y ago
    It’s bizarre to read that in a world where news have been dominated by American conservatives trying to bring us to the end times for years now. Bizarre, disturbing, and terrifying.
- motorest 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - MaxPock 1y ago
    They woke up and started bombing Israel for no apparent reason or they are responding to Israeli attacks ?
    - motorest 1y ago
      > They woke up and started bombing Israel for no apparent reason or they are responding to Israeli attacks ? You failed to answer my question. Why? Check out YouTube and see the high rate of ballistic missiles thrown at Israel. Those existed for years, and were developed for this exact purpose. It just so happened they didn't have the nuclear warhead yet. I repeat the question: are you really asking why a country would be afraid of a regime which is literally raining ballistic missiles over them?
      - MaxPock 1y ago
        1.Israel bombed Iran 2.Iran is bombing Israel back How is it supposed to work ?
    - 9dev 1y ago
      Reducing the Middle East conflict so much makes the entire discussion useless. If you want to point at someone guilty, look at the British who fucked up Palestine big time. Everything since then is a spiral of revenge and spite.
      - tguvot 1y ago
        Reducing the Middle East conflict so much makes the entire discussion useless. If you want to point at someone guilty, look at the Romans who fucked up Judea big time. Everything since then is a spiral of revenge and spite.
- raffraffraff 1y ago
  There's "having nukes" and there's "using nukes". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkUVIj3KWY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkUVIj3KWY The trouble with a regime like Iran is that they are a death cult. The price the put on human life (their own people as much as anyone else) is low, and they're all for martyrdom. With Iran, you cannot assume it's a just a deterrent in a cold war. You have to assume an increased likelihood that they will actually use them.
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    > The trouble with a regime like Iran is that they are a death cult. Compare the number of deaths caused by Iranian weapons and those caused by Israeli weapons in the last year. Or 5 years, or 10. Do you have some other way of defining ‘death cult’?
    - raffraffraff 1y ago
      A death cult doesn't care about deaths in it's own population as long as it wipes out it's enemy. A death cult prizes martyrdom.
      - lostlogin 1y ago
        That’s one way to justify the deaths I guess. It’s all Iran’s fault.
  - djfivyvusn 1y ago
    Not only that, they were planning to give them to Hezbollah. The brain-dead takes I'm hearing about this shitty war amazes me.
  - tharmas 1y ago
    Only the USA has ever used Nukes.
- deepsun 1y ago
  The main point of having nukes is not using them. The moment one uses them -- they lost. Nukes are good as a deterrent, not good as a weapon.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  Same reason the U.S. and USSR were afraid of each other in the Cold War.
- shusaku 1y ago
  People are just fear mongering to suggest Iran would use them or give them to those who would. The real issue here is that once you have them, you basically entrench yourself as a regional power. If the regime started falling out of favor, all their neighbors would be obliged to come to their aid to protect the nukes. Also, you would be far more limited in how you fight your proxy war. These are the things the involved parties are considering, not Armageddon fantasies.
throw310822 1y ago
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- JodieBenitez 1y ago
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  - tda 1y ago
    Isn't Israel a defacto theocracy too?
    - throw310822 1y ago
      I would say the US is too at this point, given continued references to god by its leaders. A country where a senator can say he supports a certain foreign policy because it's written in the Bible?
    - HaZeust 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - throwaway20222 1y ago
        Can you explain your comment a bit more please?
    - JodieBenitez 1y ago
      No, it's not.
    - nine_k 1y ago
      No, Israel is not using religious norms or holy scriptures as the law, and establishes no state religion. Iran's constitution directly says that the norms of the Sharia law are its foundation, and makes Shia Islam the state religion.
      - helge9210 1y ago
FilosofumRex 1y ago
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- alex1138 1y ago
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- 9dev 1y ago
  These positions are not mutually exclusive though. You can both be in favor of stripping Irans ability to build nukes and oppose Israel’s settlements.
  - spiderfarmer 1y ago
    Iran is stupid trying to covertly get to a nuclear bomb, Israel is very stupid with those illegal settlements. It’s costing them both a lot of sympathy.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    Israel's settlements are the reason Iran feels the need for such developments though. I can oppose IRA violence and British imperialism at the same time but if we're having a reasonable conversation we have to recognise that British colonial force in Ireland is what drove people to form the IRA.
    - mrkstu 1y ago
      You know that isn’t true. Israel could withdraw to the 1969 borders and Iran would be just as dedicated to destroying it.
      - AlecSchueler 1y ago
        I'm not sure how that contradicts what I'm saying. To continue the analogy that's like going back to 1900 and saying Britain could pull out of Ireland except for Ulster and there'd still be people calling for further decolonisation.
    - 1y ago
recroad 1y ago
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- motorest 1y ago
  > Why are you assuming that Iran wants to destroy Israel? Everything I’ve actually seen is the complete opposite: it’s Israel that clearly wants to destroy Israel. Even by your own logic, do you believe that having a country threaten your existence is not reason enough to want them destroyed?
  - recroad 1y ago
    destroy Iran I mean
    - motorest 1y ago
      If you pay attention to my question, you'll notice that it isn't conditional to who made threats to who. Do you believe this influences your answer?
  - recroad 1y ago
    This whole “threaten your existence” is a clutch in your argument. It smells like “but Hamas…” and tries to create a precondition of condemnation of one side which also happens to be the victim.
- intermerda 1y ago
  > Why are you assuming that Iran wants to destroy Israel? I'm guessing from the words and actions of Iranian leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani...
  - recroad 1y ago
    What are you pointing at there? Their position from 1979 which is 12 years after 1967? Also, let’s leave rhetoric aside. What is the actual record of violence between Israel and anyone else? It’s not even close https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties Israel here is the aggressor. Not acknowledging that makes no sense and doesn’t leave grounds for any meaningful discussion.
asadm 1y ago
... so you preemptively attack every neighbor and commit genocide?
- lostmsu 1y ago
  Was this bombing a genocide?
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    The word “and” can be used to delineate two linked ideas. Sometimes they’re closely linked ideas like bombing someone AND accusing them of being two weeks away from nukes for decades. Sometimes they’re less closely linked ideas, like bombing someone AND committing genocide against someone else.
jhanschoo 1y ago
The first thing I would want to do after wearing Israeli shoes would be to find a way to flee immediately and disassociate myself from being complicit with the ongoing genocide (or to resist it if I were in such a position), Iran's hostility be damned. In which case, I suppose that any resistance I might do would have the state call me an anti-Semite.
farzd 1y ago
[flagged]
throw310822 1y ago
All this talk about nuclear weapons is purposefully misleading. Iran had agreements in place to keep its nuclear program under strict and thorough international checks, and was currently negotiating a new one. The original deal was scrapped on Netanyahu's request, and the bombing was started by Netanyahu to prevent a new one. Israel doesn't fear Iran's nukes. Israel fears an economically functional Iran and uses the wmd excuse to sabotage it as much as possible. The worst possible outcome for them is Iran proving it has no nuclear weapons at all and having its sanctions lifted.
- nine_k 1y ago
  Realistically, a secular Iran would be the only real ally of Israel in the region. This is how it was under the shah, until 1979. Israel is set to benefit enormously from an economically functional Iran, with sanctions lifted, and a sane, non-fanatical, non-oppressive government. Iran used to be a pretty cool and developed country in 1960s, and could be now. (Edit: typo)
  - dttze 1y ago
    You’re like the gusanos that say Cuba was so much better before the revolution. Without mentioning it was only great for the landowning slavers. Why do you think there was a revolution?
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - nine_k 1y ago
      Cubans kept massively supporting Fidel for quite some time, and quite explicitly, even through the disastrous Communist economic policies. Iranians keep protesting; last few years have seen several large protests, involving hundreds of thousands, and continuing for months. The popularity just isn't there. Regarding revolutions, it's quite often that a relatively small group of like-minded people capture the control, and the majority is weakly supporting them, or is even weakly opposed but complies. The French revolution was mostly about some nobility wanting to remove the monarchy that oppressed them, along with the rest; most of the population wasn't overtly anti-monarchy, and not even covertly so, but it did not like the monarchy's pressure either. The Russian revolution was "communist" and "proletarian", but even by their own Marxist accounting, proletarians were less than 10% of Russian population, and communists, much fewer still. Nevertheless, they subdued most of the Russian empire. The Iranian revolution was also done by a group of highly religious people who were fed up with the shah's secularization reforms. The shah, AFAICT, was a guy a bit like Putin, or Saudi kings: efficient and geared towards prosperity of the country, but quite authoritarian. The fact that e.g. the educated urban population in Iran wasn't happy about authoritarianism does not imply that the same people were (or are) huge fans of theocracy. Actually, the theocracy ended up even more oppressive.
compiler_queen 1y ago
> How well would you sleep at night? Well, considering that Israeli's are occupying land that rightfully belongs to someone else, I'd say not very well indeed. It's the final major European colonial outpost, and its fighting hard not to go the way of Algeria, Kenya, Malaya and a long long list of others.
- kanbara 1y ago
  you do know that jews come from the current state of israel right? and that they lived there before the founding of said state? and that, no, neither group of 7M people are going to pack up and leave.
  - compiler_queen 1y ago
    This is no more relevant than the guys in the OAS banging the table and claiming 2M Frenchmen have always lived in Algeria. It's not the age of exploration any more, you can no more rock up on someone else's patch, declare it terra nullis and start building condos. What's worse again, is trying to make it some religious thing... this book here says I own all you guy's land because the book says God gave it to us guys and not yous.
- elcritch 1y ago
  Even if you believe Israelis don’t have a right to the land, it’s still not a colonial outpost. That’s just lazy European and American self important intellectualizing in my opinion. First a colony is one controlled by a foreign nation. Next the population of Israel is, or was, about half Sephardim. Meaning Jews from the Middle East, many of whom were unwilling expelled from Muslim countries. Secondly Arab Muslim Palestinians could also be considered colonizers if ones that’d been there many generations. The Israel and Palestine conflict in many aspects is more similar to between Turkey and Greece after WWI. In 1923 they “swapped populations” due to the aftermaths of Greeces independence from the Turkish Ottaman Empire and the following wars. Populations which had lived together segregated after the wars and were expelled on both sides in roughly equal numbers. It was similar after the 1948 war with about 850,000 Middle Eastern Jews and 750,000 Palestinians being displaced. Except Palestinians were never integrated into Egypt or Jordan. Partly by their own choice and partly by that of the Arab countries. The stated goal was that they’d destroy the new state of Israel and return.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. Do they? What is this based on? My understanding was that they were reacting to a pattern of imperialism of which Israel was the crown jewel. Is there actually something inherent about the Shi'ite religion which says Israel must fall?
- loandbehold 1y ago
  Iran was one of the first countries in the Middle East to recognize Israel. But it all changed since Islamic Revolution. Their official position since than have been that Israel cannot exist. They don't even refer to it as Israel but as "Zionist Regime". It's their official public position and what they say on their (government controlled) TV. They've been fighting proxy war with Israel since 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani...
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    I'm not sure that answers my question. They could have a political belief that Israel must fall but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Obviously the two things are tied up together but I don't believe that if a Jewish homeland state had been created in Western Europe or in Antarctica that Iran would have an issue with it. Their problem is surely that Israel represents an historical and continuing power play by Western forces, a springboard from which the US and it's allies can encourage coups, wage wars and dominate the trade of the natural resources in the region. It seems like a very practical concern more than a religious one.
    - loandbehold 1y ago
      It doesn't matter for Israel weather it's based on religious belief or not. But Iran does frame their opposition in Islamic context in its communication to Iranian people. E.g. Khamenei says things like "fighting Israel to liberate Palestine is an obligation and an Islamic jihad." https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous-tumor-khamenei/30628754.html https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous...
McAlpine5892 1y ago
> It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. And the US is full of Christo-fascists who believe they have a religious duty to "defend" Israel by any means necessary. It absolutely blows my mind that in this day and age people are taking sides on a religious war. Stay out. Stay far out. There is no winning. There is no stopping the conflict. Every side has an ordained right to blow the others off the face of the planet. The only thing to see is human atrocities as far as the eye in the name of <your god of choice>. > There's a state ... [that has] ... the facilities necessary to enrich weapons grade Uranium Do they? It's oft repeated. But I vaguely remember this country being sold on an Iraq invasion due to nukes. Nukes that never existed and never were close to existing. This wasn't a simple miscalculation. The nukes were entirely and knowingly fictional. And that's just one example of a bullshit made-up reason this nation has started a war to waste lives. How do you think Palestinians sleep at night? With the threat of Israel, funded by the largest military in the world, looming over them every night? Why should I believe my country today? Why is today the day of all days that the truth is finally being told? Why is today the day that god is real and I should jump in on the bloodshed? Your masters are lying to you, to their benefit. They didn't wake up today and decide to be honest.
- adastra22 1y ago
  Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East. Support for Israel extends beyond religious justifications.
  - fluorinerocket 1y ago
    I could really care less what theit form of government is
    - petre 1y ago
      > starting a new war with Iran Hamas has started in on the 7th of october 2023, effectively rolling back years of negotiations done by Yasser Arafat. Where do you think they've got the weapons from? Netanyahu is no better, but they offered him the perfect motive for a response.
bambax 1y ago
> and they believe god has ordered them to destroy you Maybe, but obviously the other side thinks exactly the same. Religious wars were lots of fun five centuries ago. They will be funnier still in the nuclear age.
- Alex_L_Wood 1y ago
  Ah, yes, Israel famously publicly declaring that its' holy mission is to destroy Iran. Happened so many times, yes.
Krasnol 1y ago
You make it sound like it's some natural law that they have to destroy the state of Israel. I mean, did you even think about this when you heard it for the first time? Do you think your common Iranian citizen wake up in the morning and feels the natural urge to destroy Israel? What is this? Be serious. This is no justification to ignore international law. But that's dead now. Nobody will ever care again until we're done with the next big war or something. Bomb away...
- simonh 1y ago
  I don't think the average Iranian citizen cares at all about Israel, one way or the other, but they don't have any say in Iranian state politics. There's no natural law setting the mullahs against the existence of Israel, as I said they think and vocally declaim publicly that it is divine law. Don't believe me, just look up what they say. I do think the way this is being handled is a travesty though. There was a functioning agreement with international monitoring in place in 2016 and Trump tore it up. Since then Iran has increased their enrichment capacity, and their stockpile of enriched material by 22 time above what they committed to in that agreement. Canceling that deal was a foolish blunder that had lead us to this. Ultimately the only path to long term peace has to be the fall of theocratic rule in Iran, but that's a mater for the Iranian people. It's quite possible the nuclear question could have been managed, but just as with NAFTA Trump saw personal political advantage is scrapping an old deal in order to rebrand it as his better deal, but dropped the ball because he doesn't understand the geopolitics, and here we are.
  - Krasnol 1y ago
    I think it's important, especially so shortly after the fact not to mix up things. Trump wanted another deal and told Bibi not to attack. Bibi didn't want that and attacked. Trump jumped on the bandwagon and now everybody is talking about him again.
    - simonh 1y ago
      All absolutely true. In fact we're only in this situation because Trump cancelled the nuclear deal with Iran, along with as many treaties as he could get away with so he could get the credit of renegotiating them. Except for the ones he never got round to, like the one with Iran. So, here we are. I don't particularly blame the Israelis though, and there's broad support for this over there, it's not just Netanyahu.
powerapple 1y ago
What's the reason of incompatibility of Islam and Jewish religion?
- elcritch 1y ago
  Nothing in most of their beliefs. They’re both monotheistic and similar in many regards as Islam largely inherited its tenants from both Judaism and Christianity. Jews were often well treated and flourished in the earlier Islamic caliphates. But with the formation of a Jewish Israel the conflict. Generally in Islamic belief there must be an Islamic caliphate with Sharia Law. Jerusalem is considered one of the holy sites of Islam and therefore belongs to that caliphate. That’s contrasted with Judaism and Israel being the land promised to the Jews. Though modern Israel was largely founded by secular Jews so it’s a bit more complicated on that front.
  - powerapple 1y ago
    It does not make sense to frame Iran versus Israel as religious war. Religion is so fundamental, when we frame it as this, it becomes a unsolvable problem.
mykowebhn 1y ago
> It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. I believe this is very important to highlight, and, unfortunately, many Iranians will suffer because of the Iranian government's views. But I do believe there are viewpoints held on both sides that can make achieving peace in that region extremely difficult. Consider these two video excerpts (You only need to watch about 10 seconds for each) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg&t=1948s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg&t=1948s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiL_5h14pY&t=452s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiL_5h14pY&t=452s
_tik_ 1y ago
Then how is that any different from what the USA has done. Bombing and destroying many countries in the name of spreading democracy?

by simonh 1y ago

tharmas 1y ago

Israel has nukes, so why would they be afraid of Iran?

dismalaf 1y ago
[flagged]
- lostlogin 1y ago
  Would they? How would they deliver it? If they were caught trying to do it, what would happen? Why is an Iranian weapon somehow different do one held by any other country? Countries with them usually don’t use them, and the one that has is attacking Iran.
snapetom 1y ago
[flagged]
- throw310822 1y ago
  I don't think you realise how ignorant and racist is this idea that an entire religion and country of 90 million doesn't behave like normal human beings.
  - raffraffraff 1y ago
    Have you lived in Iran? It's not a whole country of 90 million people who will shout "Push the button!". Most of them are unwillingly imprisoned under a regime lead by the religious zealots who will push that button, even if it means destruction of themselves and their population. Or at least, that's the assumption that the west must make, based their religious views and their past rhetoric.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      Which is their past rhetoric? As for their religious views, hasn't their supreme leader declared multiple times that nuclear weapons are prohibited by their religion?
      - raffraffraff 1y ago
        So they're definitely not building nuclear weapons.
        throw310822 1y ago
        By your same logic.
  - throw2235 1y ago
    [dead]
  - ta12653421 1y ago
    There was a very interesting "street walk video" by a somewhat-famous travelling-blogger, he visited Afghanistan, talked to a lot of people, created a lot of footage of their daily life, asking about the regime etc. This video got blocked after publishing by a political action group / NGO, it came back online only after dozens of other YouTube channels reported that. And yes - this video depicted life of people in a theocracy ;-)
    - 1y ago
- asadm 1y ago
  You are wrong. Muslims don't wake up trying to get martydom asap. Protecting life (own included) is top-most goal, so much that even harming your body (tattoos etc) is strictly prohibited.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  Isn't christianity the one that has martyrdom at its core? Jesus was martyred for our sins after all. Christians can’t really be trusted not to sacrifice themselves at the drop of a roman helmet. Or not. Perhaps, we understand the nuances of that because we were raised in a christian culture, but don’t understand the nuances of martyrdom in islam because we weren’t raised in a muslim culture? I know that’s true for me, i assume that’s true for any non-muslim who claims stuff about the core of islam.
- Alex-C137 1y ago
  This is an extremely insane take and should be deleted immediately. Disgusting
  - snapetom 1y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid Stop being so naive.
- kergonath 1y ago
  It’s bizarre to read that in a world where news have been dominated by American conservatives trying to bring us to the end times for years now. Bizarre, disturbing, and terrifying.
motorest 1y ago
[flagged]
- MaxPock 1y ago
  They woke up and started bombing Israel for no apparent reason or they are responding to Israeli attacks ?
  - motorest 1y ago
    > They woke up and started bombing Israel for no apparent reason or they are responding to Israeli attacks ? You failed to answer my question. Why? Check out YouTube and see the high rate of ballistic missiles thrown at Israel. Those existed for years, and were developed for this exact purpose. It just so happened they didn't have the nuclear warhead yet. I repeat the question: are you really asking why a country would be afraid of a regime which is literally raining ballistic missiles over them?
    - MaxPock 1y ago
      1.Israel bombed Iran 2.Iran is bombing Israel back How is it supposed to work ?
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Reducing the Middle East conflict so much makes the entire discussion useless. If you want to point at someone guilty, look at the British who fucked up Palestine big time. Everything since then is a spiral of revenge and spite.
    - tguvot 1y ago
      Reducing the Middle East conflict so much makes the entire discussion useless. If you want to point at someone guilty, look at the Romans who fucked up Judea big time. Everything since then is a spiral of revenge and spite.
raffraffraff 1y ago
There's "having nukes" and there's "using nukes". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkUVIj3KWY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkUVIj3KWY The trouble with a regime like Iran is that they are a death cult. The price the put on human life (their own people as much as anyone else) is low, and they're all for martyrdom. With Iran, you cannot assume it's a just a deterrent in a cold war. You have to assume an increased likelihood that they will actually use them.
- lostlogin 1y ago
  > The trouble with a regime like Iran is that they are a death cult. Compare the number of deaths caused by Iranian weapons and those caused by Israeli weapons in the last year. Or 5 years, or 10. Do you have some other way of defining ‘death cult’?
  - raffraffraff 1y ago
    A death cult doesn't care about deaths in it's own population as long as it wipes out it's enemy. A death cult prizes martyrdom.
    - lostlogin 1y ago
      That’s one way to justify the deaths I guess. It’s all Iran’s fault.
- djfivyvusn 1y ago
  Not only that, they were planning to give them to Hezbollah. The brain-dead takes I'm hearing about this shitty war amazes me.
- tharmas 1y ago
  Only the USA has ever used Nukes.
deepsun 1y ago
The main point of having nukes is not using them. The moment one uses them -- they lost. Nukes are good as a deterrent, not good as a weapon.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
Same reason the U.S. and USSR were afraid of each other in the Cold War.
shusaku 1y ago
People are just fear mongering to suggest Iran would use them or give them to those who would. The real issue here is that once you have them, you basically entrench yourself as a regional power. If the regime started falling out of favor, all their neighbors would be obliged to come to their aid to protect the nukes. Also, you would be far more limited in how you fight your proxy war. These are the things the involved parties are considering, not Armageddon fantasies.

throw310822 1y ago

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JodieBenitez 1y ago
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- tda 1y ago
  Isn't Israel a defacto theocracy too?
  - throw310822 1y ago
    I would say the US is too at this point, given continued references to god by its leaders. A country where a senator can say he supports a certain foreign policy because it's written in the Bible?
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwaway20222 1y ago
      Can you explain your comment a bit more please?
  - JodieBenitez 1y ago
    No, it's not.
  - nine_k 1y ago
    No, Israel is not using religious norms or holy scriptures as the law, and establishes no state religion. Iran's constitution directly says that the norms of the Sharia law are its foundation, and makes Shia Islam the state religion.
    - helge9210 1y ago

FilosofumRex 1y ago

[flagged]

alex1138 1y ago
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9dev 1y ago
These positions are not mutually exclusive though. You can both be in favor of stripping Irans ability to build nukes and oppose Israel’s settlements.
- spiderfarmer 1y ago
  Iran is stupid trying to covertly get to a nuclear bomb, Israel is very stupid with those illegal settlements. It’s costing them both a lot of sympathy.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Israel's settlements are the reason Iran feels the need for such developments though. I can oppose IRA violence and British imperialism at the same time but if we're having a reasonable conversation we have to recognise that British colonial force in Ireland is what drove people to form the IRA.
  - mrkstu 1y ago
    You know that isn’t true. Israel could withdraw to the 1969 borders and Iran would be just as dedicated to destroying it.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      I'm not sure how that contradicts what I'm saying. To continue the analogy that's like going back to 1900 and saying Britain could pull out of Ireland except for Ulster and there'd still be people calling for further decolonisation.
  - 1y ago

recroad 1y ago

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motorest 1y ago
> Why are you assuming that Iran wants to destroy Israel? Everything I’ve actually seen is the complete opposite: it’s Israel that clearly wants to destroy Israel. Even by your own logic, do you believe that having a country threaten your existence is not reason enough to want them destroyed?
- recroad 1y ago
  destroy Iran I mean
  - motorest 1y ago
    If you pay attention to my question, you'll notice that it isn't conditional to who made threats to who. Do you believe this influences your answer?
- recroad 1y ago
  This whole “threaten your existence” is a clutch in your argument. It smells like “but Hamas…” and tries to create a precondition of condemnation of one side which also happens to be the victim.
intermerda 1y ago
> Why are you assuming that Iran wants to destroy Israel? I'm guessing from the words and actions of Iranian leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani...
- recroad 1y ago
  What are you pointing at there? Their position from 1979 which is 12 years after 1967? Also, let’s leave rhetoric aside. What is the actual record of violence between Israel and anyone else? It’s not even close https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties Israel here is the aggressor. Not acknowledging that makes no sense and doesn’t leave grounds for any meaningful discussion.

asadm 1y ago

... so you preemptively attack every neighbor and commit genocide?

lostmsu 1y ago
Was this bombing a genocide?
- kennywinker 1y ago
  The word “and” can be used to delineate two linked ideas. Sometimes they’re closely linked ideas like bombing someone AND accusing them of being two weeks away from nukes for decades. Sometimes they’re less closely linked ideas, like bombing someone AND committing genocide against someone else.

jhanschoo 1y ago

The first thing I would want to do after wearing Israeli shoes would be to find a way to flee immediately and disassociate myself from being complicit with the ongoing genocide (or to resist it if I were in such a position), Iran's hostility be damned. In which case, I suppose that any resistance I might do would have the state call me an anti-Semite.

farzd 1y ago

[flagged]

throw310822 1y ago

All this talk about nuclear weapons is purposefully misleading. Iran had agreements in place to keep its nuclear program under strict and thorough international checks, and was currently negotiating a new one. The original deal was scrapped on Netanyahu's request, and the bombing was started by Netanyahu to prevent a new one. Israel doesn't fear Iran's nukes. Israel fears an economically functional Iran and uses the wmd excuse to sabotage it as much as possible. The worst possible outcome for them is Iran proving it has no nuclear weapons at all and having its sanctions lifted.

nine_k 1y ago
Realistically, a secular Iran would be the only real ally of Israel in the region. This is how it was under the shah, until 1979. Israel is set to benefit enormously from an economically functional Iran, with sanctions lifted, and a sane, non-fanatical, non-oppressive government. Iran used to be a pretty cool and developed country in 1960s, and could be now. (Edit: typo)
- dttze 1y ago
  You’re like the gusanos that say Cuba was so much better before the revolution. Without mentioning it was only great for the landowning slavers. Why do you think there was a revolution?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Cubans kept massively supporting Fidel for quite some time, and quite explicitly, even through the disastrous Communist economic policies. Iranians keep protesting; last few years have seen several large protests, involving hundreds of thousands, and continuing for months. The popularity just isn't there. Regarding revolutions, it's quite often that a relatively small group of like-minded people capture the control, and the majority is weakly supporting them, or is even weakly opposed but complies. The French revolution was mostly about some nobility wanting to remove the monarchy that oppressed them, along with the rest; most of the population wasn't overtly anti-monarchy, and not even covertly so, but it did not like the monarchy's pressure either. The Russian revolution was "communist" and "proletarian", but even by their own Marxist accounting, proletarians were less than 10% of Russian population, and communists, much fewer still. Nevertheless, they subdued most of the Russian empire. The Iranian revolution was also done by a group of highly religious people who were fed up with the shah's secularization reforms. The shah, AFAICT, was a guy a bit like Putin, or Saudi kings: efficient and geared towards prosperity of the country, but quite authoritarian. The fact that e.g. the educated urban population in Iran wasn't happy about authoritarianism does not imply that the same people were (or are) huge fans of theocracy. Actually, the theocracy ended up even more oppressive.

compiler_queen 1y ago

> How well would you sleep at night? Well, considering that Israeli's are occupying land that rightfully belongs to someone else, I'd say not very well indeed. It's the final major European colonial outpost, and its fighting hard not to go the way of Algeria, Kenya, Malaya and a long long list of others.

kanbara 1y ago
you do know that jews come from the current state of israel right? and that they lived there before the founding of said state? and that, no, neither group of 7M people are going to pack up and leave.
- compiler_queen 1y ago
  This is no more relevant than the guys in the OAS banging the table and claiming 2M Frenchmen have always lived in Algeria. It's not the age of exploration any more, you can no more rock up on someone else's patch, declare it terra nullis and start building condos. What's worse again, is trying to make it some religious thing... this book here says I own all you guy's land because the book says God gave it to us guys and not yous.
elcritch 1y ago
Even if you believe Israelis don’t have a right to the land, it’s still not a colonial outpost. That’s just lazy European and American self important intellectualizing in my opinion. First a colony is one controlled by a foreign nation. Next the population of Israel is, or was, about half Sephardim. Meaning Jews from the Middle East, many of whom were unwilling expelled from Muslim countries. Secondly Arab Muslim Palestinians could also be considered colonizers if ones that’d been there many generations. The Israel and Palestine conflict in many aspects is more similar to between Turkey and Greece after WWI. In 1923 they “swapped populations” due to the aftermaths of Greeces independence from the Turkish Ottaman Empire and the following wars. Populations which had lived together segregated after the wars and were expelled on both sides in roughly equal numbers. It was similar after the 1948 war with about 850,000 Middle Eastern Jews and 750,000 Palestinians being displaced. Except Palestinians were never integrated into Egypt or Jordan. Partly by their own choice and partly by that of the Arab countries. The stated goal was that they’d destroy the new state of Israel and return.

AlecSchueler 1y ago

> they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. Do they? What is this based on? My understanding was that they were reacting to a pattern of imperialism of which Israel was the crown jewel. Is there actually something inherent about the Shi'ite religion which says Israel must fall?

loandbehold 1y ago
Iran was one of the first countries in the Middle East to recognize Israel. But it all changed since Islamic Revolution. Their official position since than have been that Israel cannot exist. They don't even refer to it as Israel but as "Zionist Regime". It's their official public position and what they say on their (government controlled) TV. They've been fighting proxy war with Israel since 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani...
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  I'm not sure that answers my question. They could have a political belief that Israel must fall but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Obviously the two things are tied up together but I don't believe that if a Jewish homeland state had been created in Western Europe or in Antarctica that Iran would have an issue with it. Their problem is surely that Israel represents an historical and continuing power play by Western forces, a springboard from which the US and it's allies can encourage coups, wage wars and dominate the trade of the natural resources in the region. It seems like a very practical concern more than a religious one.
  - loandbehold 1y ago
    It doesn't matter for Israel weather it's based on religious belief or not. But Iran does frame their opposition in Islamic context in its communication to Iranian people. E.g. Khamenei says things like "fighting Israel to liberate Palestine is an obligation and an Islamic jihad." https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous-tumor-khamenei/30628754.html https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous...

McAlpine5892 1y ago

> It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. And the US is full of Christo-fascists who believe they have a religious duty to "defend" Israel by any means necessary. It absolutely blows my mind that in this day and age people are taking sides on a religious war. Stay out. Stay far out. There is no winning. There is no stopping the conflict. Every side has an ordained right to blow the others off the face of the planet. The only thing to see is human atrocities as far as the eye in the name of <your god of choice>. > There's a state ... [that has] ... the facilities necessary to enrich weapons grade Uranium Do they? It's oft repeated. But I vaguely remember this country being sold on an Iraq invasion due to nukes. Nukes that never existed and never were close to existing. This wasn't a simple miscalculation. The nukes were entirely and knowingly fictional. And that's just one example of a bullshit made-up reason this nation has started a war to waste lives. How do you think Palestinians sleep at night? With the threat of Israel, funded by the largest military in the world, looming over them every night? Why should I believe my country today? Why is today the day of all days that the truth is finally being told? Why is today the day that god is real and I should jump in on the bloodshed? Your masters are lying to you, to their benefit. They didn't wake up today and decide to be honest.

adastra22 1y ago
Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East. Support for Israel extends beyond religious justifications.
- fluorinerocket 1y ago
  I could really care less what theit form of government is
  - petre 1y ago
    > starting a new war with Iran Hamas has started in on the 7th of october 2023, effectively rolling back years of negotiations done by Yasser Arafat. Where do you think they've got the weapons from? Netanyahu is no better, but they offered him the perfect motive for a response.

bambax 1y ago

> and they believe god has ordered them to destroy you Maybe, but obviously the other side thinks exactly the same. Religious wars were lots of fun five centuries ago. They will be funnier still in the nuclear age.

Alex_L_Wood 1y ago
Ah, yes, Israel famously publicly declaring that its' holy mission is to destroy Iran. Happened so many times, yes.

Krasnol 1y ago

You make it sound like it's some natural law that they have to destroy the state of Israel. I mean, did you even think about this when you heard it for the first time? Do you think your common Iranian citizen wake up in the morning and feels the natural urge to destroy Israel? What is this? Be serious. This is no justification to ignore international law. But that's dead now. Nobody will ever care again until we're done with the next big war or something. Bomb away...

simonh 1y ago
I don't think the average Iranian citizen cares at all about Israel, one way or the other, but they don't have any say in Iranian state politics. There's no natural law setting the mullahs against the existence of Israel, as I said they think and vocally declaim publicly that it is divine law. Don't believe me, just look up what they say. I do think the way this is being handled is a travesty though. There was a functioning agreement with international monitoring in place in 2016 and Trump tore it up. Since then Iran has increased their enrichment capacity, and their stockpile of enriched material by 22 time above what they committed to in that agreement. Canceling that deal was a foolish blunder that had lead us to this. Ultimately the only path to long term peace has to be the fall of theocratic rule in Iran, but that's a mater for the Iranian people. It's quite possible the nuclear question could have been managed, but just as with NAFTA Trump saw personal political advantage is scrapping an old deal in order to rebrand it as his better deal, but dropped the ball because he doesn't understand the geopolitics, and here we are.
- Krasnol 1y ago
  I think it's important, especially so shortly after the fact not to mix up things. Trump wanted another deal and told Bibi not to attack. Bibi didn't want that and attacked. Trump jumped on the bandwagon and now everybody is talking about him again.
  - simonh 1y ago
    All absolutely true. In fact we're only in this situation because Trump cancelled the nuclear deal with Iran, along with as many treaties as he could get away with so he could get the credit of renegotiating them. Except for the ones he never got round to, like the one with Iran. So, here we are. I don't particularly blame the Israelis though, and there's broad support for this over there, it's not just Netanyahu.

powerapple 1y ago

What's the reason of incompatibility of Islam and Jewish religion?

elcritch 1y ago
Nothing in most of their beliefs. They’re both monotheistic and similar in many regards as Islam largely inherited its tenants from both Judaism and Christianity. Jews were often well treated and flourished in the earlier Islamic caliphates. But with the formation of a Jewish Israel the conflict. Generally in Islamic belief there must be an Islamic caliphate with Sharia Law. Jerusalem is considered one of the holy sites of Islam and therefore belongs to that caliphate. That’s contrasted with Judaism and Israel being the land promised to the Jews. Though modern Israel was largely founded by secular Jews so it’s a bit more complicated on that front.
- powerapple 1y ago
  It does not make sense to frame Iran versus Israel as religious war. Religion is so fundamental, when we frame it as this, it becomes a unsolvable problem.

mykowebhn 1y ago

> It's that they believe they have a religious duty to destroy the state of Israel. I believe this is very important to highlight, and, unfortunately, many Iranians will suffer because of the Iranian government's views. But I do believe there are viewpoints held on both sides that can make achieving peace in that region extremely difficult. Consider these two video excerpts (You only need to watch about 10 seconds for each) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg&t=1948s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg&t=1948s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiL_5h14pY&t=452s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiL_5h14pY&t=452s

_tik_ 1y ago

Then how is that any different from what the USA has done. Bombing and destroying many countries in the name of spreading democracy?