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Wow these are incredibly broad, in particular: > Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than t

Wow these are incredibly broad, in particular: > Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. There are plenty of dual citizens that would proudly admit that their first loyalty is to Israel. Other examples from the document use the term "Jews as a people", whereas this example seems to apply to accusing any individual. Although perhaps a generous interpretation of the example, is that it excludes Israeli dual citizens, because Israel would be one of "their own nations"

slg 1y ago
That is a strange one to call out as too broad because it is literally an ancient form of antisemitism going back to the Romans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_loyalty#Jewish_Believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_loyalty#Jewish_Believers https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/jews-disloyal-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/jews-disloyal...
- f33d5173 1y ago
  The point is that is may be admitedly true on the part of the one accused. In general, you should be wary of "forms of antisemitism" (or similar "forms of x-ism/x-phobia/etc"). Such things usually consists of the defensible but vacuous notion that "doing X in an antisemetic way is antisemetic", while attempting to imply that doing X is antisemetic in general, regardless how it's done, or at the least that doing X is suspect. But the only proof that has been provided in such cases is that X has ocassionally been done in an antisemetic way, which you could say for just about anything. Since X in these cases is not per se anti semetic, it is more helpful to identify what antisemetic thing has often been done alongside it, and be on the lookout for that, instead of for X.
  - slg 1y ago
    What is a context in which it is acceptable to say that an American's loyalty to this country can't be trusted because of their ethnicity/religion? Some of these definitions are too broad, but this is not the example to use in that argument. Accusations of dual loyalty are widely recognized as antisemitism.
    - DangitBobby 1y ago
      > because of their ethnicity/religion You specified that. The excerpt did not.
      - slg 1y ago
        I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are calling attention to the phrasing of the excerpt rather than insinuating that Jews collectively are more loyal to Israel than the US. I admit the phrasing of the excerpt does look vague out of context, but it is about the collective of Jewish people. That is suggested by the excerpt saying "Jewish citizens" rather than "a Jewish citizen". It should also become more clear if you click through to the original and see all the other examples are about the Jewish people as a collective too. So yes, this text is specifically about the "because of" even if the excerpt doesn't make that explicit. It is not saying that any accusation of disloyalty is inherently antisemitism. For example, if a Jewish American citizen was arrested with real evidence of them being an Israeli spy, there would not be a serious discussion of whether the arrest was an act of antisemitism.
        DangitBobby 1y ago
        I am suspicious of the motivations behind the excerpt and thus critical of the wording. Jewish Citizens can be taken to mean generically as a group or multiple instances of single individuals. They could have been more precise in their usage of language if they meant the latter, but imprecision can be useful.
        slg 1y ago
        >I am suspicious of the motivations behind the excerpt This is a pointless concern because "the excerpt" has no motivations behind it that were imbued by its author. The only reason it exists as an excerpt is that someone pulled it out of its original context. Either go to the source and read it in context to get a better idea of the motivations of the full text or attribute the motivations to the person who decided to excerpt that specific text.
- axel6665 1y ago
  [dead]
- _dke7 1y ago
  This isn't theoretical. There's literally cases of ICE kidnapping people off the streets for writing an innocuous op-ed in a magazine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
  - slg 1y ago
    What did I say that made you think I support the ICE kidnappings? I was making a very specific point that you seemingly received as a much different general point.
  - sibhezt 1y ago
    [flagged]
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> There are plenty of dual citizens that would proudly admit that their first loyalty is to Israel This is legitimately debatable. If your allegiance is first to a foreign state, in my view, you should have to relinquish your American citizenship.
- peterlada 1y ago
  Totally disagree.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Totally disagree Hence debatable. Let me escalate: I think such a bill would find bipartisan support. Right now might be a good time to attempt it. I hate the idea of revoking citizenship. But a question about swearing, on naturalisation, that your supreme allegiance is to America should be incredibly popular to secure.
    - adastra22 1y ago
      You are conflating naturalization with born citizens.
    - birn559 1y ago
      That would have the consequence that naturalized citizen would be second class. Because they have to watch out for what to say, otherwise somebody might denounce them and they have to fight against their live being destroyed.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > would have the consequence that naturalized citizen would be second class I know more born citizens with a second nationality than naturalised ones who gave up their first.
        exe34 1y ago
mjlee 1y ago
The vast majority of American Jewish citizens are not dual US/Israeli citizens. Very roughly, there are about 1,000,000 Israelis living abroad worldwide and the US Jewish population is around 7,000,000.
- pixxel 1y ago
  [dead]
tdeck 1y ago
> Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. I'm sure this definition is going to be applied to Zionist organizations that do this on a regular basis.
- nailer 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Making laws against saying otherwise is disloyalty to America, though probably pushed more by antisemites trying to foment antisemitism than anyone else.
- notjulianjaynes 1y ago
  Yeah this one is funny because it's literally the stated mission of several U.S. based Zionist/anti-antisemetic organizations.
plextoria 1y ago
> There are plenty of dual citizens that would proudly admit that their first loyalty is to Israel. Plenty of dual citizens that are not Israeli citizens and would admit the same thing, but we don't go around throwing such accusations at them. > this example seems to apply to accusing any individual. Does it? It would be accusing the individual just because they are part of a certain group.
- cherryteastain 1y ago
  > but we don't go around throwing such accusations at them Simply not true. There is plenty of rhetoric about immigrants (even 2nd gen+) in Western countries being accused of being disloyal to their Western citizenship in favor of their ethnic origin countries. Chinese, Indians, Middle Easterners, Latin Americans etc are all accused of this; see the recent riots in LA for a very recent example. Yet this insinuation is made illegal only with respect to one country only for whatever reason.
  - malicka 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - cherryteastain 1y ago
      All racism has group specific aspects. Start curbing freedom of speech in this manner and soon you will have a list of thousands of things you are not allowed to say, at which point we can't say we have freedom of speech anymore.
    - llm_nerd 1y ago
      > This insinuation really is only made to Jewish people This is untrue. It's untrue to such an extraordinary degree that it's hard to believe you're arguing in good faith. Accusing people of being loyal to some other nation or cause is levied regularly against almost all peoples to some degree or other, particularly if the person holds any ancestral pride or accoutrements. Even just refusing to adapt to food customs is enough to arouse suspicions. Look at the outrage about the "invasion" because some protestors hoisted Mexican flags. Various members of Trump's administration declared this a demonstration of "occupied" territories. If you're Chinese in America you must never, ever, show an iota of association with your homeland -- or even just your grandparents home if you're 3rd generation -- or you will be ostracized and considered a deep agent. An Indian that has an Indian flag in their bio or the like is going to be frequently asked why they don't move back if they "love it so much". Similarly, a frequent criticism of some Muslims is din wa dawla, which is a belief that religion and politics/the state are one. Indeed, if someone has religious beliefs that can go in conflict with the needs/goals of the state, there is a discord there that needs to be considered. There are Americans who are more loyal to Israel than the US. Like, they will literally tell you this without an ounce of compunction or question (which is utterly verboten among virtually any other group. Similarly a US congressman wore his IDF uniform into congress, which is simply insane). On the flip side, there are many Jewish Americans who are deeply critical of Israel. Like does anyone think Bernie is a deep agent of Israel? Bernie, like much of Jewish America, is deeply critical of Israel.
lazyeye 1y ago
It's all so confusing. Defending Jewish people is very unexpected behaviour for someone, who we've been told for years now, is a nazi...
- CuriouslyC 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - lazyeye 1y ago
    Either that or what you are saying is complete nonsense and is much more a rationalisation of your own beliefs than a reflection of anyone elses..
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Trump likes Israel because the GOP likes Israel. The GOP likes Israel because they believe it's important to ushering in the endtimes. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZboeOkG9e0E https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZboeOkG9e0E
      - lazyeye 1y ago
        More nonsense.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Video of a sitting US Senator, one of the most prominent leaders in the entire GOP, saying he supports Israel because his magical book tells him to. "more nonsense" Great rebuttal.
        shadowgovt 1y ago
        I wish it were. Some reading on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mountain_Mandate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mountain_Mandate Worth noting: Senator Ted Cruz's father is a pastor and follows this ideology. There's a pretty good article on the topic: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/features/quiet-rise-christian-dominionism https://www.christiancentury.org/article/features/quiet-rise... And the Dominionists require Israel to be strong because Jews rebuilding the temple is part of their apocalyptic beliefs. https://sojo.net/articles/evangelical-support-israel-fueled-apocalyptic-hopes https://sojo.net/articles/evangelical-support-israel-fueled-...
dgellow 1y ago
> Although perhaps a generous interpretation of the example Absolutely zero reasons to give the current US government the benefit of the doubt
wolfcola 1y ago
Donald Trump has done this multiple times, saying that Jewish Americans who vote for Democrats are disloyal or traitors because he treats Israel better.
nailer 1y ago
> whereas this example seems to apply to accusing any individual I think citizens is meant to mean “American citizens” as opposed to Jewish people that are citizens of other countries. It seems intended to prevent people saying Jewish people cannot be loyal to America, though I agree the wording is clumsy.
bsoles 1y ago
I find it ironic that the current administration wants to filter out students based on their negative views of Israel when the same administration has literal Nazis in their ranks. I think that the quoted definition/criteria is just a ploy to ban students from undesirable countries from entering the country.
Aloisius 1y ago
The preface to the list of examples is rather important: > Contemporary examples of antisemitism ... could, taking into account the overall context, include...: Context is important. The examples are not true in all cases, but rather context dependent. Accusing Jewish citizens of your country of being more loyal to Israel than their country simply because they're Jewish? Antisemitic. Accusing a specific Jewish citizen that has said they are more loyal to Israel? Not antisemitic.

slg 1y ago

That is a strange one to call out as too broad because it is literally an ancient form of antisemitism going back to the Romans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_loyalty#Jewish_Believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_loyalty#Jewish_Believers https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/jews-disloyal-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/jews-disloyal...

f33d5173 1y ago
The point is that is may be admitedly true on the part of the one accused. In general, you should be wary of "forms of antisemitism" (or similar "forms of x-ism/x-phobia/etc"). Such things usually consists of the defensible but vacuous notion that "doing X in an antisemetic way is antisemetic", while attempting to imply that doing X is antisemetic in general, regardless how it's done, or at the least that doing X is suspect. But the only proof that has been provided in such cases is that X has ocassionally been done in an antisemetic way, which you could say for just about anything. Since X in these cases is not per se anti semetic, it is more helpful to identify what antisemetic thing has often been done alongside it, and be on the lookout for that, instead of for X.
- slg 1y ago
  What is a context in which it is acceptable to say that an American's loyalty to this country can't be trusted because of their ethnicity/religion? Some of these definitions are too broad, but this is not the example to use in that argument. Accusations of dual loyalty are widely recognized as antisemitism.
  - DangitBobby 1y ago
    > because of their ethnicity/religion You specified that. The excerpt did not.
    - slg 1y ago
      I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are calling attention to the phrasing of the excerpt rather than insinuating that Jews collectively are more loyal to Israel than the US. I admit the phrasing of the excerpt does look vague out of context, but it is about the collective of Jewish people. That is suggested by the excerpt saying "Jewish citizens" rather than "a Jewish citizen". It should also become more clear if you click through to the original and see all the other examples are about the Jewish people as a collective too. So yes, this text is specifically about the "because of" even if the excerpt doesn't make that explicit. It is not saying that any accusation of disloyalty is inherently antisemitism. For example, if a Jewish American citizen was arrested with real evidence of them being an Israeli spy, there would not be a serious discussion of whether the arrest was an act of antisemitism.
      - DangitBobby 1y ago
        I am suspicious of the motivations behind the excerpt and thus critical of the wording. Jewish Citizens can be taken to mean generically as a group or multiple instances of single individuals. They could have been more precise in their usage of language if they meant the latter, but imprecision can be useful.
        slg 1y ago
        >I am suspicious of the motivations behind the excerpt This is a pointless concern because "the excerpt" has no motivations behind it that were imbued by its author. The only reason it exists as an excerpt is that someone pulled it out of its original context. Either go to the source and read it in context to get a better idea of the motivations of the full text or attribute the motivations to the person who decided to excerpt that specific text.
axel6665 1y ago
[dead]
_dke7 1y ago
This isn't theoretical. There's literally cases of ICE kidnapping people off the streets for writing an innocuous op-ed in a magazine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
- slg 1y ago
  What did I say that made you think I support the ICE kidnappings? I was making a very specific point that you seemingly received as a much different general point.
- sibhezt 1y ago
  [flagged]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> There are plenty of dual citizens that would proudly admit that their first loyalty is to Israel This is legitimately debatable. If your allegiance is first to a foreign state, in my view, you should have to relinquish your American citizenship.

peterlada 1y ago
Totally disagree.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Totally disagree Hence debatable. Let me escalate: I think such a bill would find bipartisan support. Right now might be a good time to attempt it. I hate the idea of revoking citizenship. But a question about swearing, on naturalisation, that your supreme allegiance is to America should be incredibly popular to secure.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    You are conflating naturalization with born citizens.
  - birn559 1y ago
    That would have the consequence that naturalized citizen would be second class. Because they have to watch out for what to say, otherwise somebody might denounce them and they have to fight against their live being destroyed.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > would have the consequence that naturalized citizen would be second class I know more born citizens with a second nationality than naturalised ones who gave up their first.
      - exe34 1y ago

mjlee 1y ago

The vast majority of American Jewish citizens are not dual US/Israeli citizens. Very roughly, there are about 1,000,000 Israelis living abroad worldwide and the US Jewish population is around 7,000,000.

pixxel 1y ago
[dead]

tdeck 1y ago

> Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. I'm sure this definition is going to be applied to Zionist organizations that do this on a regular basis.

nailer 1y ago
[flagged]
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Making laws against saying otherwise is disloyalty to America, though probably pushed more by antisemites trying to foment antisemitism than anyone else.
notjulianjaynes 1y ago
Yeah this one is funny because it's literally the stated mission of several U.S. based Zionist/anti-antisemetic organizations.

plextoria 1y ago

> There are plenty of dual citizens that would proudly admit that their first loyalty is to Israel. Plenty of dual citizens that are not Israeli citizens and would admit the same thing, but we don't go around throwing such accusations at them. > this example seems to apply to accusing any individual. Does it? It would be accusing the individual just because they are part of a certain group.

cherryteastain 1y ago
> but we don't go around throwing such accusations at them Simply not true. There is plenty of rhetoric about immigrants (even 2nd gen+) in Western countries being accused of being disloyal to their Western citizenship in favor of their ethnic origin countries. Chinese, Indians, Middle Easterners, Latin Americans etc are all accused of this; see the recent riots in LA for a very recent example. Yet this insinuation is made illegal only with respect to one country only for whatever reason.
- malicka 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - cherryteastain 1y ago
    All racism has group specific aspects. Start curbing freedom of speech in this manner and soon you will have a list of thousands of things you are not allowed to say, at which point we can't say we have freedom of speech anymore.
  - llm_nerd 1y ago
    > This insinuation really is only made to Jewish people This is untrue. It's untrue to such an extraordinary degree that it's hard to believe you're arguing in good faith. Accusing people of being loyal to some other nation or cause is levied regularly against almost all peoples to some degree or other, particularly if the person holds any ancestral pride or accoutrements. Even just refusing to adapt to food customs is enough to arouse suspicions. Look at the outrage about the "invasion" because some protestors hoisted Mexican flags. Various members of Trump's administration declared this a demonstration of "occupied" territories. If you're Chinese in America you must never, ever, show an iota of association with your homeland -- or even just your grandparents home if you're 3rd generation -- or you will be ostracized and considered a deep agent. An Indian that has an Indian flag in their bio or the like is going to be frequently asked why they don't move back if they "love it so much". Similarly, a frequent criticism of some Muslims is din wa dawla, which is a belief that religion and politics/the state are one. Indeed, if someone has religious beliefs that can go in conflict with the needs/goals of the state, there is a discord there that needs to be considered. There are Americans who are more loyal to Israel than the US. Like, they will literally tell you this without an ounce of compunction or question (which is utterly verboten among virtually any other group. Similarly a US congressman wore his IDF uniform into congress, which is simply insane). On the flip side, there are many Jewish Americans who are deeply critical of Israel. Like does anyone think Bernie is a deep agent of Israel? Bernie, like much of Jewish America, is deeply critical of Israel.

lazyeye 1y ago

It's all so confusing. Defending Jewish people is very unexpected behaviour for someone, who we've been told for years now, is a nazi...

CuriouslyC 1y ago
[flagged]
- lazyeye 1y ago
  Either that or what you are saying is complete nonsense and is much more a rationalisation of your own beliefs than a reflection of anyone elses..
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Trump likes Israel because the GOP likes Israel. The GOP likes Israel because they believe it's important to ushering in the endtimes. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZboeOkG9e0E https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZboeOkG9e0E
    - lazyeye 1y ago
      More nonsense.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Video of a sitting US Senator, one of the most prominent leaders in the entire GOP, saying he supports Israel because his magical book tells him to. "more nonsense" Great rebuttal.
      - shadowgovt 1y ago
        I wish it were. Some reading on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mountain_Mandate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mountain_Mandate Worth noting: Senator Ted Cruz's father is a pastor and follows this ideology. There's a pretty good article on the topic: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/features/quiet-rise-christian-dominionism https://www.christiancentury.org/article/features/quiet-rise... And the Dominionists require Israel to be strong because Jews rebuilding the temple is part of their apocalyptic beliefs. https://sojo.net/articles/evangelical-support-israel-fueled-apocalyptic-hopes https://sojo.net/articles/evangelical-support-israel-fueled-...

dgellow 1y ago

> Although perhaps a generous interpretation of the example Absolutely zero reasons to give the current US government the benefit of the doubt

wolfcola 1y ago

Donald Trump has done this multiple times, saying that Jewish Americans who vote for Democrats are disloyal or traitors because he treats Israel better.

nailer 1y ago

> whereas this example seems to apply to accusing any individual I think citizens is meant to mean “American citizens” as opposed to Jewish people that are citizens of other countries. It seems intended to prevent people saying Jewish people cannot be loyal to America, though I agree the wording is clumsy.

bsoles 1y ago

I find it ironic that the current administration wants to filter out students based on their negative views of Israel when the same administration has literal Nazis in their ranks. I think that the quoted definition/criteria is just a ploy to ban students from undesirable countries from entering the country.

Aloisius 1y ago

The preface to the list of examples is rather important: > Contemporary examples of antisemitism ... could, taking into account the overall context, include...: Context is important. The examples are not true in all cases, but rather context dependent. Accusing Jewish citizens of your country of being more loyal to Israel than their country simply because they're Jewish? Antisemitic. Accusing a specific Jewish citizen that has said they are more loyal to Israel? Not antisemitic.