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Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers
- goda90 1y agoBetter hope your stalker isn't friends with a law enforcement officer either: https://deflock.me/ https://deflock.me/
- ge96 1y agothat's not related to flock safety (company) is it?
- sodality2 1y agoYep. Their brand of ALPR cameras have spread like a plague very quickly all over the US
- ge96 1y agoInteresting I had actually considered getting a job there at one point ha... it's like Anduril you know, seems like a cool company but the purpose... Also doubt I'm qualified but yeah.
- ty6853 1y agoI noticed that in Abrego Garcia's recent indictment they were able to figure out he was in 2022 based on ALPR pulls that showed he was actually putzing around Texas. My understanding was most ALPRs were being stored for no more than 30 days but apparently that isn't the case, since it appears they did not start to build the trafficking case until this year.
- stackskipton 1y agoGovernment run ones had limited time due to civil liberties concerns. However, since it’s a private company…
- Spooky23 1y agoThere's networks of these things, so you can't trust what is said. The host agency may keep for 30 days, but exchange data with third parties, through organizations like NLETS, private collaborations and informal exchange. I'd assume with NLETS searches that the Feds have an overwatch capability and spy on the spies so to speak. This stuff started with "drug corridors". Police and Feds can and do track vehicles on the I-95 corridor from Maine (and Plattsburgh to NYC) down to Miami as early as 12 years ago. NYT covered it a few years back -- basically they get multiple LPR hits and are usually able to do facial recognition on front seat passengers. If you driving Florida->NYC and stop for a cheesesteak in Philly, you may get some attention up the road. There's also a growing network of commercial LPR services. Most tow trucks, many parking garages and some delivery vehicles scan and correlate license plates -- repo guys can find wanted cars in hours these days. Also, most traffic cams are saving 24x7 video with LPR.
- potato3732842 1y agoEvery semi truck these days can be factory equipped with cameras which are all stored in the cloud and analyzed as the service provider sees fit. And if they're not factory equipped they probably have a 3rd party solution in the cab and the same thing is being done.
- EGreg 1y agoWhy don’t they just use facial and gait and heartbeat recognition everywhere? London and other cities already have CCTV cameras, and an AI can quickly figure out wherr you are. In China it has been deployed at scale!
- Spooky23 1y agoIt probably has, but I have not seen public sources that have reported it. I’m sure as part of one of our many states of emergency in the United States deployments will be accelerated. NYPD has an extensive camera network in Manhattan that probably does this.
- potato3732842 1y agoIn some of the Fani Willis court proceedings they dredged up ~10yo cell phone location data like it was nothing about people who weren't relevant enough to warrant special attention 10yr ago.
- Jalad 1y agoIs that accurate? The Willis proceedings were about events around 2021, so that's only 4 years at best
- potato3732842 1y agoThey introduced stuff from a really long time ago as evidince of people knowing each other or dealing with each other. Like "you were at X's house then so clearly you knew them" type thing. I don't recall exactly what the context was because the big takeaway was the retention of records.
- K0balt 1y agoIn a security interview I was questioned about an interaction on a public payphone 15 years prior, back in 2006 (transcript from 1991). They apparently had transcribed logs of all conversations (on that phone? All public pay phones?) that were part of a searchable database. My involvement at the time in a (tiny, unknown , knowable only in retrospect later from the time of the transcript ) political student organization was apparently enough to get flagged. Back in 2006 that was an eye opener for me.
- toomuchtodo 1y agohttps://www.404media.co/a-texas-cop-searched-license-plate-cameras-nationwide-for-a-woman-who-got-an-abortion/ https://www.404media.co/a-texas-cop-searched-license-plate-c... https://docs.flocksafety.com/developer-hub/docs/introduction https://docs.flocksafety.com/developer-hub/docs/introduction https://www.flocksafety.com/devices/flock-nova https://www.flocksafety.com/devices/flock-nova
- Lammy 1y agoThe images and video clips are stored for 30 days. The metadata (OCRed plate, and timestamp) are stored forever. Sorry I mean “may be stored indefinitely”. Source: the privacy policy of the shopping mall near me, who installed these things even before the city did.
- arwhatever 1y agoUPDATE plate_scan SET soft_deleted = 1 WHERE now() - scan_date > 30
- closewith 1y agoPrivate ANPR in public spaces is unlawful in the entire EU. The US needs to get a GDPR equivalent to protect basic human rights from corporate surveillance.
- manarth 1y agoFor a given definition of "public". Driving into a supermarket carpark? Most will have time-limits controlled by private ANPR cameras.
- closewith 1y agoTrue, but they can't track vehicles on public roads, and they cannot store or persist the number plates for any other reason then access control.
- zikduruqe 1y agoAnd Lowe's (hardware store) has signed an agreement with them to put them on their properties. Vote with your wallets. "Retail giant Lowe’s is another customer, according to two former Flock employees and confirmed by the company. Scott Draher, vice president of asset protection at Lowe’s, said in a statement that Flock cameras are “just one example of a multifaceted approach” to combat shoplifting. He declined to comment on how many of its stores have Flock cameras or if it provides camera feeds to law enforcement." https://ourcommunitynow.com/P/americas-biggest-mall-owner-is-sharing-ai-surveillance-feeds-directly-with-cops https://ourcommunitynow.com/P/americas-biggest-mall-owner-is...
- defsectec 1y agoThe map of ALPR nodes show that some are installed by "Flock Safety" when you click on a single one and view the details. So I would assume those two things are directly connected. Just speculation though. Don't have time to verify currently.
- catsdogsmouse 1y ago[dead]
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- 77pt77 1y agoDo you know if they also monitor bluetooth devices? Like all cars have one and if should be detectable. Also, most recent cars have DCM which are always sending data, including position to the car maker.
- toomuchtodo 1y agoThey have Bluetooth hardware but doesn't appear they monitor with it based on available information. https://www.ryanohoro.com/post/spotting-flock-safety-s-falcon-cameras https://www.ryanohoro.com/post/spotting-flock-safety-s-falco... https://www.cehrp.org/dissection-of-flock-safety-camera/ https://www.cehrp.org/dissection-of-flock-safety-camera/
- reactordev 1y agoBluetooth doesn’t have the signal strength beyond 20ft. Even then it requires a handshake pairing to send data as every device shares spectrum.
- sodality2 1y agoBLE transmissions go much further last time I experimented with them [0]. However the problem of anonymity comes into play since they frequently generate new MAC addresses. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38252566 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38252566
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- EGreg 1y agoThey also used to monitor MAC addresses from various wifi access points, the MAC addresses of your computer don’t change. But now I think the vendors started fixing that.
- chneu 1y agoTo be clear, you absolutely can randomize your Mac on most devices nowadays.
- extraduder_ire 1y agoI think per-AP randomisation of wifi mac has been the default on any mobile device I've checked in the past five years at least. Haven't examined bluetooth as closely.
- chneu 1y agoIt's been the norm on mobile devices for a while. It isn't as normal on desktop but I think most OSes do it nowadays, it might need to be enabled though.
- b8 1y agoSimply putting a fake plate would bypass that. Truckers usually have a pulley system on their plates to avoid tolls, so maybe more normal drivers will implement such a system or find a way to create something that messes up their camera OCR.
- SchemaLoad 1y agoThat would probably flag you immediately for a plate that doesn't match the car, a plate that does match but seen in two places that would be impossible to travel in that time.
- potato3732842 1y agoThat event would go in the same bucket as the other ten million alerts where the system got confused between visually near identical models or some de-badged sports car. The fact of the matter is that the powers that be can't overtly use the dragnet in the way that the "how dare someone skip a $2 toll" and "muh two ton death machine" crowds would like to see because the other 99.5% of the public will be all "hey WTF" and politicians will pass laws to pander to those people. The dragnet operating powers that be would rather retain the ability to use the dragnet unfettered even in bad ways so they normally reserve its use for "serious" things.
- euroderf 1y ago> Truckers usually have a pulley system on their plates to avoid tolls You mean like James Bond's rotating license plates ? Got a pointer to this stuff ?
- 77pt77 1y agoJust search for it. I found video review of $80 in seconds. There's also videos online of cars flipping it right before they cross a toll by plate. I would not do this. This is serious fraud and antisocial behavior.
- BobaFloutist 1y ago"Usually" is an astonishingly aggressive claim here.
- Daviey 1y agoInteresting research, but the paper does not address the contribution to the arms race of good vs bad. The criminals will likely use this technique to find legitimate car trackers before stealing the vehicle.
- ge96 1y agoIf you're lucky your car gets destroyed in a street takeover then insurance gives you a new car (points to head) edit: on a more serious note, I figure I won't own a nice car till I move somewhere nicer
- keyringlight 1y agoAt least for motorbikes, the tactic is to abandon a stolen vehicle for a while after the theft to see if anyone comes for it, then take it to home base. I'd guess it all comes down to how professional an operation you're dealing with, last week a haul was recovered due to a tracker: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1denv9eg6wo https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1denv9eg6wo
- Hilift 1y agoThere were probably zero arrests from that seizure. There would probably be more seizures if they simply scanned used vehicle VINs going out for export, but there's no resources for that. The whole "export used garbage vehicles to a new home" market is super shady and is a convenient front for theft.
- LorenPechtel 1y agoDid you not notice the motion sensor bit? Their technique does not work against a stationary tracker because it's not going to say anything. Thus you can't check out the car before you steal it. What the bad guys do is steal the car, then leave it somewhere as soon as possible and see if anyone comes for it.
- AngryData 1y agoI don't think cars should have trackers in them to start with unless the owner specifically puts it in there themselves, so I see this as only good.
- weinzierl 1y agoThese efforts are commendable, but by and large I think our location data is just a commodity by now and it is best not to assume you can reliably hide your location permanently and reliably without spending a lot of effort. Not that I'd find that idea pleasant, I just think the ship has sailed.
- JohnMakin 1y agoThis isn't a generic data privacy counter-measure or concern. This is specifically targeted against stalking, which is pretty much one of only a few cases where this kind of thing would be used against you. Specifically the case where the perpetrator will place a device in or on the victim's car.
- weinzierl 1y agoSure, but the stalking issue is a subset of the generic data privacy issue or do you believe you can hide from a stalker if everyone else under the sun knows you location. It might be too difficult to use location data brokers for stalking[1] but the whole economy around them makes the app ecosystem weak against location privacy and makes it easy to use a manipulated app for stalking. No special devices needed and certainly no cellular devices needed. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ [1] Even though data brokers have been used to find out the medications of a German MP, for example. https://www.techradar.com/news/even-your-deleted-secret-web-history-isnt-safe-say-researchers https://www.techradar.com/news/even-your-deleted-secret-web-...
- JohnMakin 1y agoI’m not sure what point you’re really trying to make here. This is a thread about detection methods of an extremely invasive (and rare) method of stalking, which yes is a subset of a data privacy issue. The fact that data brokers can get a lot of location and other data about you is irrelevant to the discussion. > or do you believe you can hide from a stalker if everyone else under the sun knows you location. I’m not sure anyone is claiming that the detection methods described in this study are going to make you completely undetectable to any party at all times. Again, not sure what point you’re trying to make here and it feels irrelevant to the larger thread. The original comment seemed to indicate that the article hadn’t been read at all.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- eschneider 1y agoIf you're going to try and track this stuff for real, keep in mind most devices like this use motion sensors to go into low-power mode when stationary and only transmit on the move.
- Scoundreller 1y agoWe talking MEMS/inertia detection, vibration detection or auto-geo-fencing?
- avidiax 1y agoThe absolute cheapest thing is just to never update the position unless it significantly changed. Doesn't require anything except the GPS chip. Bluetooth beacons would need to add an accelerometer, but that undermines their use in pinpointing an object at rest.
- aa-jv 1y agoProbably the most effective technique for detection would be attained by spoofing the GPS signals, like the IRGC did to capture multiple US' drones? https://www.gpsworld.com/gps-circle-spoofing-discovered-in-iran/ https://www.gpsworld.com/gps-circle-spoofing-discovered-in-i... I wonder how easily GPS can be spoofed, locally ... https://rntfnd.org/2021/10/28/cheap-and-easy-gps-gnss-spoofing-gpspatron/ https://rntfnd.org/2021/10/28/cheap-and-easy-gps-gnss-spoofi... Seems someone already had the idea: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardwarehacking/comments/10na5c8/spoofing_a_gps_module_ive_got_a_car_laser_jamming/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardwarehacking/comments/10na5c8/sp...
- zikduruqe 1y agoI used to have a GPS repeater installed in our lab for RF testing. The FAA did not like it at all and threatened us with action. Don't go spoofing or broadcasting your own GPS signals unless you have a decent legal team behind you.
- userbinator 1y agoI wonder how effective an EMP would be at "sterilising" a vehicle of such trackers. Especially if the vehicle in question has no electronics and uses a mechanically-injected diesel engine.
- ehnto 1y agoCertainly an interesting thought if you have a very old diesel. I would wonder if all the metal would hamper an EMP pulse that you could safely generate at home. Diesel's going back 20+ years still have ECUs as well, not to mention the rest of the vehicle's electronics could be at risk. So it would have to be a properly old or unique vehicle.
- myself248 1y agoIt's an interesting idea. The "obvious" route would be to tear down the vehicle and remove all the ECUs you want to save, then administer the zap. But at that point you probably find the tracker hardware anyway, unless it's really buried in some upholstery or something.
- ehnto 1y agoI would also want to be able to check for trackers regularly, which excludes a full teardown. I would want to check these particular kinds of cars after every event they go to for example. That said, whilst it is a known threat vector, I have no data on how often its actually exploited. It might be a lot of work for nothing.
- gnarlynarwhal42 1y ago12v Cummins in the Dodge Ram pre-'95 would fit this. I used to want one for this reason.
- Lu2025 1y agoThe last car without electronics I drove was a Tavria made in Soviet Ukraine 35 years ago. Then dad installed an aftermarket ignition timing chip. You need to go really far back in time to find vehicles without chips.
- vv_ 1y agoIt'd be cheaper to buy an RTL-SDR and an LTE antenna than this tinySA. I'm not convinced that a layman would have enough practical experience with radio's to detect these signals though. The bands used for IoT aren't exclusively used for IoT either - they'll contain "normal" LTE signals too.
- theoreticalmal 1y agoHey this is my industry! Teltonika is a major player in the IoT tracking space. They have features designed specifically to handle this situation. I’m told that GPS jamming and radio pinpointing techniques are used to steal vehicles with these kinds of telematics devices installed, especially in Africa
- aggregator-ios 1y agoJFYI: These devices are also installed on cars before it arrives at the dealer or by the dealer itself, but not necessarily by the manufacturer. Rumors are that it is installed by larger dealer groups and is obscured or just failed to be disclosed to the end dealer. Either as part of their LoJak(?) sales upsell or tracking for insurance purposes. It's usually plugged into your OBD port. If your car has API features, some EV owners have graphed their electricity usage and shown drain/spikes at intervals and led them to find these devices. The consumption from the 12v battery causes the larger EV battery to charge the 12v battery, showing these charging/discharge spikes. There's also sometimes a sticker next to your tire pressure label on the driver's side door mentioning the installation of such a device. I guess get rid of it if you care to.
- seethishat 1y agoHam radio guys and gals have been doing this for decades with APRS. It's fun and easy to do. https://aprs.fi/#!lat=37.25320&lng=-80.43470 https://aprs.fi/#!lat=37.25320&lng=-80.43470 https://www.aprs.org/ https://www.aprs.org/ So that 1979 Ford F150 can be tracked too ;)