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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge
- pif 1y ago[flagged]
- meindnoch 1y agoHe probably regrets it.
- thih9 1y ago> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else? Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- russellbeattie 1y ago> "Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction." Check back in in a few years and all your questions will be answered.
- gspr 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_gauge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_gauge
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- anticodon 1y ago> Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country? Baltic states attempted this (project Rail Baltica). Lots of EU money were spent with no visible result. I guess, several people in Baltic states became super rich, but in terms of rail infrastructure nothing was done.
- stuaxo 1y agoThis is an ongoing project, not a past project though ? I thought this is a project for a new railway, not reguaging existing track ?
- concerned_user 1y agoCorrect it is a new rail line not an alteration of existing tracks, but it goes into some existing and new (mostly cargo) stations so some stations will have both gauges of track.
- Sloowms 1y agoNo visible result is the goal. The change is minimal but makes the system compatible with other EU carriages. Did the Baltics attempt this or succeed?
- concerned_user 1y agoIt is ongoing project but there doesn't seem to me enough financing, the money that EU allocates only cover about half of the required budget so they are looking for investors.
- greggsy 1y agoThey're clearly referring to economic results.
- cromulent 1y agoProgress has been made and is ongoing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica#Project_progress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica#Project_progress
- hapidjus 1y agoI think you can ”upgrade” the tracks to use three rails so you can handle both track widths. Also there are trains with adjustabe axle widths.
- cluckindan 1y agoNot possible here because the widths are too close together to install a third rail.
- pjerem 1y agoGiven the small difference, maybe the easiest option is to "just" update the wheel axles of the entire fleet in the same time and at the same speed as the tracks. Wheels are anyway wearing parts and are to be changed periodically. BTW, I'm just speculating out loud.
- Sharlin 1y agoYou’d need four rails, a 9 cm separation isn’t enough to fit two side by side. This solution has been ruled out as technically infeasible (I don’t even want to think about what the switches would look like…) Adjustable-gauge rolling stock has also been ruled out as incompatible with the Finnish climate. The most (only?) feasible way to do it is to “simply” build entirely new standard-gauge track next to existing track (and then possibly start upgrading the latter too at some point in the future).
- greatpatton 1y agoAdjustable-gauge are used in Switzerland for a mountain line (Montreux-Interlaken) all through the year. I have never seen temperature issue mentioned. https://www.gpx.swiss/en/stories/technology https://www.gpx.swiss/en/stories/technology (the video is rather cool)
- janfoeh 1y agoThat is cool, thanks for posting!
- yevgeby 1y agoThere are several options nowadays. For instance, the Spanish train maker Talgo holds many patents for variable-gauge railroad wheel systems. Such systems can be used at scale for large projects. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge
- andriamanitra 1y agoCurrently the leading plan is to build another narrower track alongside the existing ones (so the old trains can keep operating), but it is still in the planning phase. [1] I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself. I feel like you could move cargo from one train to another somewhere near the border for quite a long time with the money it is going to take to convert the entire rail network. Finland is only connected to Sweden and Norway by land in the North so it's not really going to connect the Finnish rail network to Europe either (unless the Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel [2] gets built, but it does not seem likely at this time). [1] https://yle.fi/a/74-20161793 https://yle.fi/a/74-20161793 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunne...
- pjc50 1y ago> I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself. The subtext is not economic: it's "in the event of being invaded by Russia, can we minimize the delays in moving NATO materiel by rail to the front while denying Russia equally easy access to the rails".
- ExoticPearTree 1y agoAssuming Russia waits 30-50 years until Finland has new tracks :))
- pjc50 1y agoWell, the last Russian invasion of Finland was over 80 years ago, and presumably Russia will continue to exist in some form..
- IAmBroom 1y agoIt will take that long for them to replace their military stockpiles. The silver lining in the horrific invasion of Ukraine is that the Russian bear's belly is not just exposed, but raw from shaving nicks. Granted, it still takes a lot to kill a bear - but the West only wants deterrence, not occupation of Russia.
- Al-Khwarizmi 1y agoIn Spain it's ongoing, very slowly, since the first international gauge high-speed rail line started operation in 1992. It's a slow and quite annoying process. For example, to reach my region, trains from Madrid have to change gauge because my region still has the old one. Apart from spending around 10 minutes doing this, this has caused a lot of problems because it essentially means there is a single model of 300 km/h train that can make it here (others don't support gauge change) and to top it, said model turned out to be highly unreliable. This created a lot of political tension because of course we wanted 300 km/h trains like other regions, but now we're stuck with these lemons and our regional politicians push for gauge change, but the national government doesn't want to do it yet as it affects freight trains. I hope at some point we get the change done in the whole national network, although generally it moves at a glacial pace. It makes sense to have seamless connection with France and the rest of Europe, and to be able to use the same trains everyone else does.
- RileyJames 1y agoYou lost me at ‘single model of 300km/h train that can make it here’ Meanwhile here in Australia our “fast rail” trains go 160km/h. Unless it’s over 32 degrees, then they slow down. And if it hits 36 degrees they slow down even more (90km/h) And it gets that hot here a lot… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity https://www.vline.com.au/heat https://www.vline.com.au/heat
- jabl 1y agoIn 1886 the USA switched the rail gauge of the southern states to standard gauge. Most of the work was done over two days. http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html Obviously doing this today would be a much more complicated affair, considering the much higher speeds and weights of contemporary trains.
- ExoticPearTree 1y agoIf you want to, you can do it fairly fast. The decades plan is nonsense. It cannot take decades to change tracks, especially since the size of the rail network is quite small.
- xattt 1y agoToronto has 83 km of TTC-gauge streetcar track. 99% of it is set in concrete. This would take a little longer than 2 days.
- ExoticPearTree 1y agoIf you want to nitpick about some corner case, go ahead. I have this feeling that Finland's railway tracks are not set in concrete at street level ;)
- iggldiggl 1y agoBut they are set into prefabricated concrete sleepers, which cannot be modified to a new track gauge and instead need to be swapped out completely. Whereas during the US gauge change, the railways used wooden sleepers, with the rails fastened simply with nails hammered into the sleepers, so it was simply a matter of pulling out the nails and hammering them in again at the new track gauge.
- ExoticPearTree 1y agoThere are machines these days that change sleepers automatically. I do not know if they do gauge conversion, but changing track (meaning replacing old one) and sleepers nowadays is fully automated. I imagine running a machine in reverse, removing the track and changing sleepers and one moving forward at the same time installing the new track only. Or have one remove the old sleepers and track and and another one installing new sleepers and track (imagine building new track kind of operation).
- rsynnott 1y ago> Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country? There were a number of gauge changes, but they were usually quite early on, when the infra was less critical and you could get away with closing lines for months. I'm not sure that there's a real 20th century example, beyond standard gauge high speed alongside non-standard normal-speed (for instance see Spain, and likely soon Ireland).
- padjo 1y agoWhat leads you to believe Ireland will introduce standard gauge?
- rsynnott 1y agoIf the proposed Cork-Dublin-Belfast high speed line (the 300km/h one, not to be confused with Irish Rail's _other_ more short-term project to bring Dublin-Cork to 200km/h standard, which will use the existing line) goes ahead, it'll almost certainly be a new standard gauge line, separate from the existing ones. Huge 'if', of course.
- marcthe12 1y agoIndia had a meter gauge to broad gauge but India was always a mix and India did a very slow transition to standardize on broad gauge which kinda smoothen stuff quiet a bit
- iggldiggl 1y ago> There were a number of gauge changes, but they were usually quite early on, when the infra was less critical and you could get away with closing lines for months. It was also a time when railways used wooden sleepers, so you could simply drill new holes at the new track gauge for moving the rail fasteners, thereby minimising the work required for changing the gauge, at least on the plain line, switches and crossings excepted. Plus it was a time when a lot more manpower for that kind of massive manual work was available, plus railways were the dominant transport mode and could actually commandeer that kind of manpower.
- aziaziazi 1y agoNorth Korea ! That article has a short paragraph mentioning it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44033310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44033310
- dotancohen 1y ago> Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country? Another large scale infrastructure change right in Finland (or was it Sweden?) was the switch from driving on the left hand side of the road to the right hand side of the road. They actually had local citizens one night dig up street signs and move them to the other side of the street.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- jillesvangurp 1y agoThey'll probably go line by line. Here's a helpful overview from wikipedia: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Finnish_railroad_network-en.svg https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Finnish_railroad_netwo... I'm not sure how complete & up to date that is. But up north where the borders with Sweden and Norway are there isn't a whole lot of rail it seems. Norway's rail network doesn't extend that far. But Sweden gets pretty close to the Finnish border. I'm guessing a priority would be first connecting to their rail networks and then providing progressively more access to industrial hubs and eventually regional hubs. This might also help with freight to the rest of Europe. Currently the only way into the country for freight is by ship (ferries, containers) or by road via northern Sweden. Sweden has decent north south rail connections and a bridge to Denmark. So extending coastal rail to Oulu would allow access to the rest of Finland for freight trains. Just some thoughts.
- bluGill 1y agoProblem with line by line is you need to have gauge switching systems someplace - line be line means you are moving all that.
- jillesvangurp 1y agoThe need for that is pretty much a given with this change. I don't think it's avoidable.
- bluGill 1y agoWhile not completely avoidable, it is partially avoidable if you carefully plan. Moving all your gauge change equipment is expensive, so if you can avoid one that is worth a lot. There are a lot of options and I expect those planning this to look into all the details to figure out what they can do.
- worldsayshi 1y agoI wonder if there will be measures for backwards compatibility in the transition period. Like having dual track widths.
- helsinkiandrew 1y agoThere's only 89mm difference between the two widths - I'd guess that isn't enough room to have both on the same track.
- M95D 1y agoThis is how it looks (Galati, Romania): https://greatnews.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/linia-ferata-ecartament-larg-portul-galati.jpg https://greatnews.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/linia-ferata...
- wasmitnetzen 1y agoThere's already some dual-gauge track on the border with Sweden in Haparanda/Tornio[1]. [1]: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qjRZTz3K9sbVYpDX6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/qjRZTz3K9sbVYpDX6
- Sharlin 1y agoThe only feasible way to do this (based on preliminary reports) is to simply build new track next to old track in the same right-of-way. The transition period would last decades.
- Ekaros 1y agoJust note Finland uses the Tsarist Russian 1524 mm gauge. Not the Allied Soviet 1520 mm gauge.
- freetonik 1y agoInteresting. In practice they seem compatible? There were frequent trains running between Helsinki and Saint Petersburg, I remember taking it and there was a seamless transition across the border.
- Ekaros 1y agoYes it is in tolerances. But the specification is different.
- alexey-salmin 1y agoAllegro train had 1522 wheelsets, effectively built for a non-existent gauge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_Class_Sm6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_Class_Sm6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railways#Technical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railway...
- jabl 1y agoNot incidentally, 1524mm is exactly 5 feet. Which was the rail gauge widely used in the southern US states. The Russian tsar hired someone who had been building railroads in the US south to design his railroad, and here we are. The 1520mm was some Soviet effort to "metrify" their railways while keeping compatibility with existing rolling stock.
- HPsquared 1y agoI wonder if they actually made new trains etc 4mm smaller, or if it was in name only.
- alexey-salmin 1y agoIf I recall correctly, the rolling stock remained the same, tracks were re-railed and the 4mm came from tolerances that were historically very loose. So the stated goal was to get higher speed and stability from tighter tolerances. I also remember reading a long time ago that there were two engineering schools: one modeled that tighter tolerances would decrease oscillations and vibrations and the other predicted exactly the opposite. I think in the end they settled on natural experiments. Hope I didn't make this up, need to search for sources.
- troupo 1y agoFor those who don't know, there's a whole system alongside the eastern post-Soviet border: you arrive on a train, all the carriages are lifted and fitted with proper wheels. In the poorer countries like my home country these look like this: https://dmitriid.com/media/1/3/7/1/f50f-720b-4f59-873a-75c516dd6c29.2560.png https://dmitriid.com/media/1/3/7/1/f50f-720b-4f59-873a-75c51... (article: https://dmitriid.com/romania-2023-chisinau-bucharest https://dmitriid.com/romania-2023-chisinau-bucharest)
- helsinkiandrew 1y agoSlightly more indepth article, with links to some background: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606
- vesinisa 1y agoHere's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 My comments: The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed. > "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction." Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.
- Vinnl 1y agoTo be fair, if we imagine a future in which this did happen, the start would also look like this, so who knows.
- cladopa 1y ago>Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start. It is not that hard. Countries like Spain have already two different gauges and have the necessary technology in the trains to change between different systems.
- varsketiz 1y agoOne of the main goals of this is to not have the russian gauge available in case russians attack, so that logistics deeper into Finland cant happen easily with the same train, so backwards compatability is not desired.
- potato3732842 1y agoIt's not like this results in a categorical difference in difficulty. Gauge switching infrastructure is common at borders. Yeah stopping and switching is slower than driving right through but it's not the end of the world in the long tail of military logistics.
- cake-rusk 1y agoThe rest of europe should move to the broader guage. It is more stable.
- jabl 1y agoThe difference is so marginal it doesn't matter, and is certainly not worth the cost. Both the heaviest cargo trains and the fastest passenger trains (ignoring monorails, maglevs etc., just normal style trains running on two steel rails) on the planet run on standard gauge.
- consp 1y agoIt would also make switches and curves larger so it would not be possible in constrained (city) environments already present.
- iggldiggl 1y agoWhile narrower gauges are somewhat more favourable to tighter curve radii, ultimately the difference is negligible enough that it can be ignored. At the extreme end of the range, curve radii for standard gauge trams can go down into the 10 – 15 m range just the same as metre gauge networks, and for mainline railways curve radii instead are usually limited by vehicle geometry and mostly line speeds (centrifugal forces), which (especially the latter) aren't related to the track gauge. You're right about switches though – if you keep the rest of the switch geometry (angle, radius) the same (and to some extent you have to if you want to keep existing speeds across switches), the large track gauge alone will make the switch somewhat longer, which at least in complex stations with huge clusters of switches (like e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.1039604,8.6563677,197m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@50.1039604,8.6563677,197m/data=...) could potentially cause some headaches.
- alexey-salmin 1y agoThe rail gauge doesn't really matter but personally I wish Europe adopted the Russian loading gauge with 3.750m wide cars opposed to 3.080m wide. It makes a big difference on the comfort of sleeping carriages, you also have +2 seats on 2nd/3rd class sitting carriages and +1 seat on the 1st class. That's of course completely impossible but one can dream.
- radicalbyte 1y agoThis is a strategic move: it makes it easier to move weapons within Europe and makes it much harder for Russia should they invade. Ideally you would want to do this all over Europe.
- pjc50 1y agoMost of Europe is already on the same track width. I'm not sure whether the loading gauge (allowed size of train to fit under bridges) etc. is also standardized; it wasn't for the UK, which is why we can't have nice things like double decker commuter trains.
- Oarch 1y agoWe absolutely can. They'd just be deeply uncomfortable.
- ExoticPearTree 1y ago> They'd just be deeply uncomfortable. I rode these kind of trains in multiple countries and continents and there's nothing uncomfortable about them. Why do you say that?
- walthamstow 1y agoI think they're joking. A double decker train is only feasible in the UK if everyone sits on the floor.
- pjc50 1y agoYeah, per sibling I think this is a joke about building a double decker train that's not tall enough for people to stand up in.
- pmyteh 1y agoBecause of the tight loading gauge in Britain, trying to cram two decks in would make it very small. It's been tried (once[0]) and they weren't able to make it fully double-decker, quick to load/unload, or especially comfortable. I agree that they're fine in countries with larger bridges and tunnels -- Amtrak's Superliners are palatial in size -- but not for us. (Except probably for the Channel Tunnel rail link, which is built to French gauge). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
- cromulent 1y agoNote that the proposal for this came from the EU Commission over the last few years - the Trans-European Transport Network (TEN-T). Initially Finland pushed back on it as being too expensive. https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructure-and-investment/trans-european-transport-network-ten-t_en https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
- mytailorisrich 1y agoThere is little benefit for the cost for Finland. Currently I believe that there are no railway between Finland and the rest of the EU, with the first one to Sweden under construction (and obviously a huge detour since the only land connection is through the North of the country).
- abbe98 1y agoThe connection between Finland and Sweden was built in 1919, however it was recently electrified(January 2025). It's dual gauge(four rails).
- mytailorisrich 1y agoOk so it's passengers link that is under development. Doesn't change the big picture, though.
- abbe98 1y agoI don't think there are any ongoing projects, the current link can take passenger trains but there are no plans to do so at the moment. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torne%C3%A5%E2%80%93Haparanda-banan https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torne%C3%A5%E2%80%93Haparanda-...
- rurban 1y agoNow we only need the announcement of Deutsche Bahn to convert fully to electrical, abandoning the gas locomotives, paving the way to interact with more advanced railway nations like Poland.
- IAmBroom 1y agoUnrelated in every way except it involves rail.
- rurban 1y agoVery much related because it involves an upgrade to be able to reach your neighbors by rail. Soon possible in Finland, and German has also announced to enable rail connections to the south of Poland.
- MiguelX413 1y agoBoth Germany and Poland are only mostly electrified.
- panick21_ 1y agoDoing this is a really nice opportunity for Finland. The should bundle it with many other upgrade. Doing general maintenance. Upgrade all the signaling (ETCS L2). Overhead electrify everything. Do minor speed upgrades. And so on. If you are not doing all of this at once, this likely isn't worth it.
- pacifika 1y agoI’d imagine that would make planning and implementation more complex
- panick21_ 1y agoSure but if you already spend work teams along every railroad in the country, it would be a waste not do everything else. If they build new lines next to existing ones, they need to touch all that stuff anyway. No point in replicating old systems.
- IAmBroom 1y agoThe signalling you are describing is more complex and possibly more expensive than switching rail. Source: I work in rail traffic engineering. The idea is simple. Ensuring everything is smooth and safe = cost multiplier.
- panick21_ 1y agoThey will have to do it anyway in the same timeframe.
- eviks 1y ago> The government is expected to make the final decision by July 2027 You can't announce migration if you haven't decided you plan to migrate...
- IAmBroom 1y agoYes, this is political marketing.
- blueflow 1y agoGet a look on the track topology on openrailwaymap: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.77483725887553&lon=29.498291015624996&zoom=6 https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.774837258...
- jabl 1y agoThat's only the main tracks. There's a huge amount not seen on that map.
- reddalo 1y agoThat's very interesting. I wonder why Spain is different than the rest of Europe, given it's connected by land. It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge.
- Maken 1y agoNobody really knows. It was decided back in the XIX century when the rail network was build. The most common answer is that they thought larger locomotives would be required to climb the mountainous terrain in the Peninsula, which was not the case at all. Urban legends say that absolutely nobody in the committee that decided it had any idea about how trains work. Probably it was a protectionist measure to benefit local manufacturers.
- mikewarot 1y agoConversion to a narrower gauge should be a fairly straightforward process, unless concrete sleepers are in use. New axles or outright replacement of trucks shouldn't take multiple years of effort. We did such things in the US in month long long ago.
- barbazoo 1y agoYou mean in the late 19th century? Things have changed quite a bit since then.
- eru 1y agoInteresting. Do you have more sources?
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- thih9 1y agoYou ignore the scale of the project, still present an estimate and compare the effort to something irrelevant, from a very different time and place. Are you my PM?
- iggldiggl 1y ago> unless concrete sleepers are in use Which they are, as even a quick search would have shown.
- ur-whale 1y ago> in response to the need to improve military mobility lol, I guess that this is only half of the equation, the other being to fairly obviously reduce military mobility for another class of vehicles.
- harha_ 1y agoI'd like to have high speed railways in my country, not some decades long political conversion project. If we need railways that can go across the borders of our neighboring countries, build new ones instead of upgrading existing ones.
- Propelloni 1y agoUpgrading is magnitudes faster than building new. Apparently the current Finnisch idea is to actually build new tracks next to the old one, which requires wider beds, which requires more land, which requires more negotiations. Replacing in situ would be faster, but you would cripple your whole network for the duration. It's a tradeoff and worthy of deliberation.
- indiantinker 1y agoTBH, it seems like a questionable way to spend EU money. Technically, it's fascinating, but unless it's part of a broader geopolitical or long-term interoperability strategy, it's hard to justify the costs. In Spain, we already deal with both Iberian and standard gauges—trains like the Talgo models can change gauges with minimal delay. It's not seamless, but it works reasonably well. Spain also has the world's second largest high speed train network. What the EU could really benefit from is greater support for small companies and independent freelancers who are driving innovation. Unfortunately, governments (Spain included) often treat them as revenue sources, with high taxes and complex regulations, while large corporations can navigate around much of that with ease.
- varsketiz 1y agoThe goal is defence - to prevent easy russian train logistics deep into Finland.
- dotancohen 1y agoWants to prevent the Russians from fielding dual gauge technology like the Spanish?
- anticensor 1y agoFinnish climate is not suitable
- 542354234235 1y agoDual gauge trains are technically much more complicated, making them more expensive to build, maintain, repair etc. Dual gauge do not work well (or at all depending) in the cold climate of Finland and if they did, the changeover takes time which adds up when you are trying to move thousands of cars worth of material. Dual gauge trains still need changeover stations, which are themselves expensive and complicated, as well as being targets for attack. Unloading to new trains carry the same problems; expensive, time consuming, and make for excellent targets. Logistics are the least interesting part of war for most people, but are one of, if not the most, important part.
- Havoc 1y agoIs this connected to NATO & not being able to move military stuff fast? Timing sure seems to suggest that
- larsnystrom 1y agoYes, it is because of NATO. They've been thinking about it for some time, but NATO tipped the scales.
- oblio 1y agoRussian military logistics are train based. If Finland switches away from their rail gauge, it's safer from Russian attack, since Russia wouldn't be able to easily carry supplies farther inside Finland.
- Geee 1y agoIt's the most expensive way to stop incoming trains. Tracks can be easily destroyed if Russia attacks.
- oblio 1y agoFrom what I know they can be rebuilt easily and Russia has tons of engineering units for this specific purpose. That's what they did in Ukraine. I assume that changing the gauge also affects other related equipment such as signaling and such, which would make rebuilding much harder.
- varsketiz 1y agoAs someone from a country neighbouring russia, I wish my country decided to do this as well.
- jajko 1y agoEvery country in such position wishes for that (sans mandatory smaller part of population utterly brainwashed on some simplistic panslavic anti-soros fairy tales, when in reality russians cough cough soviets killed more slavs in past 150 years than all external adversaries combined, included nazi WWII warfare and genocides). I don't think russians like to acknowledge how hated their country actually is, universally, across all countries that ever dealt with them on their soil long term, including former soviet republics and ie Warsaw pact. Not russian civilian population just to be clear but country as a whole definitely, just a consistently safe harbor for biggest scum mankind can produce.
- euroderf 1y ago"Russia has been screwed up for the last eight hundred years, and Russia will be screwed up for the next eight hundred years."
- lovegrenoble 1y ago[flagged]
- euroderf 1y agoOh pity the poor Putin puppets.
- lovegrenoble 1y agoThat's exactly what Trudeau said when blamed Russian propaganda after he invited a literal Nazi to parliament and applauded him vigorously )))
- 1y ago
- MrDresden 1y agoI'm kind of surprised that this hadn't already been decided on years ago, seeing as the Baltics for example have been working towards this switch for years now already as part of the Euro Trans-T project.
- Yizahi 1y agoGood for them. Better integration obviously, but even more important, when ruzzians will invade, they won't have as easy logistics as in Ukraine. War logistics can be structured very differently, and unlike for example USA, ruzzia moves all of their assets on rail, due to immense distances and shitty road coverage. The major battles in Ukraine were over train lines and connectors, for example coastal Crimea to Azov line, or major lines in Donbass region. And in those areas they has success which they managed to protect later on. While in the areas with bad rail access, they lost spectacularly due to logistics, like north of Kyiv.
- gorgoiler 1y agoThere ought to be good reason for optimism with this project. The land is already purchased so you “just” need to re-lay the track. Ballast cleaners* are a thing and they are already pretty amazing at what they do, namely taking apart track and then putting it back, in place, from a machine that runs on those very tracks itself. I could imagine a giant version that not only cleans the ballast but also unties then reties the track back together at the new gauge. * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballast_cleaner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballast_cleaner
- zokier 1y ago> The land is already purchased so you “just” need to re-lay the track. While the details are unknown, this project will almost certainly mean new tracks alongside the old tracks at least for the main lines. Which means that the existing corridors in many places would not have enough space. Additionally there is probably desire to improve the geometry to allow higher speed trains, so that makes the existing corridors less useful
- iggldiggl 1y agoA ballast cleaner wouldn't be enough, because you basically need to swap out the sleepers, too, so you need a complete track-relaying train. And anything involving switches and crossings needs to be done conventionally, because those cannot be rebuilt by simply switching out the sleepers for standard gauge ones.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y agoOne such relaying train does 500m in one hour, including new sleepers. Seeing several such things in operation several times in several places, this should be doable without much modification when the gauge change is so small. Regarding switches and crossings, those come preassambled nowadays, and are just 'plugged in'.
- ggm 1y agoGood to have ambition and invest in the future. If they can straighten tight bends, double track judiciously, improve gradients lots of things get better.
- apexalpha 1y agoAt least the Russian gage is broader than the European one. Imagine the cost if it was the other way around... Nevertheless, a valiant effort by the Finnish. I guess we eventually have to do Ukraine (and Iberia?) too, so hopefully the lessons learned can be applied there.
- IAmBroom 1y agoWhy would it matter much? Either way, a new railway has to be built (others have pointed out dual-gauge is not workable).
- apexalpha 1y agoIf you have to go from a smaller gauge to a bigger one you most likely have to also expand corridors, buy new land, fix bridges and tunnels etc... While a downshift if usually much esier since a smaller gauge simply fits inside the larger one so all bridges and tunnels are wide enough by definition.
- crote 1y agoThat's mostly an issue with loading gauge, not track gauge. The train is usually significantly wider than the tracks, so width-wise the space should already be available.
- dewey 1y agoThe WSJ did an interesting video a few days ago about this topic ("How This $27B Baltic Railway Will Fortify NATO Against Russia") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eA5oEXEFlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eA5oEXEFlI
- yason 1y agoThe project is theoretically a good idea but it's not really practical, and nobody is honestly suggesting it for real -- surely plans are cheap, and planning is even cheaper. But there are fewer than handful of railway lines crossing over the eastern border to Russia. Those can be blown up for good, for long enough distance that it's not feasible for Russia to rebuild track and reconnect to the main network should they, at some point, want to fall in love with Finnish rail. Other than that, the only other rail connection is to Sweden up north where there's already some arrangements to accommodate two gauges. At this point we run out of new reasons to change the gauge, Finland is effectively an island when it comes to European railway network. Surely it would be nice to standardise with the rest of the Europe but it's not much more than that.
- Hilift 1y agoTrump recently stated that the US is eager to have massive amounts of trade with Russia. The most logical place to do that in that area would be Konigsberg, and exploit the Suwalki Gap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suwa%C5%82ki_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suwa%C5%82ki_Gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg
- mmooss 1y ago> The project is theoretically a good idea but it's not really practical Why do you say that?
- bell-cot 1y ago> But there are fewer than handful of railway lines crossing over the eastern border to Russia. Those can be blown up for good, for long enough distance that it's not feasible for Russia to rebuild track and reconnect to the main network should they ... There is no such thing as "blown up for good" for a railway line. And similar for "not feasible for Russia to rebuild". Destroying enemy-held (or soon-to-be-captured) rail lines was a thing, at scale, in WWII. On the Russian Front. Similar for rebuilding captured rail lines to convert them from "enemy gauge" to "our gauge". At best, using a different gauge and rail destruction are delaying & resource-draining tactics.
- jarek83 1y agoGiven the 5 year estimate until full-scale russian invasion against EU, it's gonna be to late.
- barbazoo 1y agoOh I didn’t know they published their timeline. Do you have a link?
- jarek83 1y agohttps://www.politico.eu/article/russia-war-threat-europe-within-5-years-danish-intelligence-ddis-warns/ https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-war-threat-europe-wit... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-five-year-deadline-boost-defences-against-russia-says-polish-pm-2025-03-21/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-five-year-dea... https://militarnyi.com/en/news/eu-top-diplomat-russia-may-attack-eu-countries-in-3-5-years/ https://militarnyi.com/en/news/eu-top-diplomat-russia-may-at...
- forty 1y agoFrance has its own nuclear power and I don't think it could really avoid being involved like we did for Ukraine if war was to cross EU border (my perspective as a French citizen)
- BurningFrog 1y agoMy refactoring brain wants to do this by adding the new rail next to the old one, so you can still run the old trains while building. But 89mm is probably too small a margin for that to work.
- entropyneur 1y ago2032 just to start is way too late. The invasion will start before the end of the current US presidential term. Although it's useful to plan for the best case as well, I guess.
- openplatypus 1y agoMy heart sunk after reading this paragraph: > The government is expected to make the final decision by July 2027, with construction starting around 2032.
- Animats 1y agoEstonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are also putting in a "standard gauge" line, so they can interoperate with the rest of Europe. What coupler are they going to use? Switching from Russian automatic couplers to European buffer and chain freight couplers is a step backwards. (It's amazing that the EU hasn't modernized freight couplers. There was something called "Eurocoupler" proposed in the 1970s, but it was never implemented. A "Digital Automatic Coupler" with data passthrough is being proposed now.)
- AdrianB1 1y agoI understand why they do it, but I am curious why there is nobody in this kind of position that is going for something that is better in technical terms, not just compatible. For example, 2 meters or even 2.5m would provide better load capacity and better stability for high speed curves, while keeping the width of the carriages the same in order to fit existing tunnels. For new freight lines even 3 meters may be much better that refitting to the relatively narrow standard.
- crote 1y agoBecause the benefits are negligible. Freight-wise, better load capacity can also be solved by ballastless track, using additional axles, or running longer trains. Passenger-wise, better stability can also be solved with canting - and wider tracks means significantly larger curves. In return you get to buy significantly more expensive one-off trains and are unable to connect to your neighbors. Not exactly a great deal, is it?
- AdrianB1 1y agoLonger trains are not a simple solution as side tracks for passing by need to also be longer. Also longer trains means building and running more carriages, which is more expensive. Why are wider inter-track requiring larger curves? It should be the same, but with better lateral stability.
- chinathrow 1y agoWow, I thought that might make sense with an agressive nation state at the border before even reading the article. Intesting times.
- vonnik 1y agoThis has clear military implications, as it will eventually allow larger amounts of equipment to be shipped quickly from fellow NATO countries.
- ashoeafoot 1y agoanti-invasion projects. Up next posting pro Russian narratives or other anti democratic ideologies gets you deported to the real existing implementation of said ideology. The free speach "autocracies pushing internal subversion" has to go. Yes, this cuts left, right and center.