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France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

617 points by bzg 1y ago

MilnerRoute 1y ago
I'm always hoping to see more coverage of this initiative to drive Open Source adoption both within the United Nations and globally... https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/05/04/2350224/the-un-ditches-google-for-form-submissions-opts-for-open-source-cryptpad-instead https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/05/04/2350224/the-un-ditc...
- johnea 1y ago
  Thanks for the slashdot link, which also links to the UN: https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-o... Is there other access to the French announcement? That Mastodon link: social.numerique.gouv.fr, isn't viewable for me...
  - bzg 1y ago
    Disclaimer: I work for code.gouv.fr. No, there is no official French announcement (yet).
    - johnea 1y ago
      Thanks for your reply!
  - pabs3 1y ago
    If it doesn't work due to JS being off, try this tool: https://github.com/jwilk/zygolophodon https://github.com/jwilk/zygolophodon
andy99 1y ago
Curious to know if this extends to LLMs and if so how they would define open source. Specifically it would be nice to see repudiation of Meta's "Open" BS by a nation state.
- b112 1y ago
  I wouldn't call data "source", whether a book, a sound track, video, etc. In my view of the world, the code to train, the software to run, that's open source joy. Now... should the trained, and vectored data be free? Maybe so. But I bet this UN thing doesn't cover that.
  - andy99 1y ago
    I didn't call the data the source and in the past have explicitly argued that training data is not necessary to exercise the freedoms normally associated with open source. Llama models have usage restrictions that go against any mainstream definitions of open source.
    - b112 1y ago
      The model is part of the data, agreed? Anyhow, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, simply stating my thoughts. And I focused on data because I see OSS code everywhere, so presume there is no issue there.
- shakna 1y ago
  They're just those eight guidelines. Not particularly precise, with intent mattering more than any definition. This isn't a policy, just a goal.
- bzg 1y ago
  https://www.comparia.beta.gouv.fr/modeles https://www.comparia.beta.gouv.fr/modeles compares models and Llama different licenses are not mislabeled as "open source". Also, https://opensource.org/ai/endorsements https://opensource.org/ai/endorsements shows code.gouv.fr in the list.
  - andy99 1y ago
    Cool, thanks! Cette licence permet d'utiliser, reproduire, modifier et distribuer librement le code avec attribution, mais impose des restrictions pour les opérations dépassant 700 millions d'utilisateurs mensuels. Interesting they only mention the 700 million users thing and not the other restrictions on use. Personally I could regard the prohibition against basically Google and Microsoft using it to be a minor transgression, it's the larger list of unacceptable uses that's the big problem.
nashashmi 1y ago
What business and role can the UN have to get into open source solutions?
- johnea 1y ago
  Governance?
  - nashashmi 1y ago
    What governance would you need for open source? Don’t steal?
    - johnea 1y ago
      I guess my one word reply to the one sentence question wasn't really clear: The UN can define standards and suggest processes to encourage the adoption and interoperability of free software in governance.
- ambicapter 1y ago
  These are principles, aka standards, not solutions.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > What business and role can the UN have to get into open source solutions? The UN has a nine figure IT budget for starters.
aaron695 1y ago
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ArthurStacks 1y ago
[flagged]
- bgwalter 1y ago
  [flagged]
fdefitte 1y ago
France has an undeserved bad reputation for this stuff. As a french citizen, I'm amazed to see how easy it has become to do anything administrative online, with great tools such as France Connect that allows a single login method for any administrative tool.
- azemetre 1y ago
  Do you happen to now if France has public jobs for software devs or is it more like a governmental agency (which I guess is also a public sector job but feels different)?
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    AFAK each agency/entity manages its staff and can hire accordingly. For the big project, my mental image is a public call for proposal, followed by one of the bigger groups (e.g. Cap Gemini) coming up with an initial solution that gets deployed. From there it becomes a mix of the public agency staff doing the day to day operation and maintenance, potentially including small bug fixes and updates, and external contracting again for wider range feature additions or changes like system wide security compliance.
- leesalminen 1y ago
  Like distributing an iOS app in France that uses encryption? What a pain in the ass that is. The bureaucracy was painful enough that we just removed from the French App Store and when someone complains we tell them to write their representatives to stop with these misguided laws. Excuse me, monsieur, do you have a license for that math?
  - aborsy 1y ago
    Some apps have refused to distribute in French store for this reason, such as Syncthing apps Mobius and Synctrain.
  - orwin 1y ago
    You can't sell encryption in France if you haven't proved it actually is strong encryption and not a rot13 or something, which is actually a _very_ good idea. Could the implementation be better? Knowing french admin, 100% yes, but complaining about the law itself is, in my opinion, misguided. This is an overall good law that doesn't came from nowhere.
canvascritic 1y ago
Real question is whether this is just symbolic or if the French state will actually redirect procurement pipelines + vendor mandates around these principles. i'd be more impressed if this came bundled with policy teeth, e.g. requiring all software vendors to deliver open-by-default interfaces or pushing funding toward open infra maintenance. Otherwise it's hardly much more than a manifesto
- fdefitte 1y ago
  I think it's more a guideline principle for public software, for exemple apps that are used by citizens to declare taxes, renews IDs...
- RandomWorker 1y ago
  It will take time but yes. There are already numerous case studies. Libre office is already running on more than 500k gov computers. Anecdotical story, as a researcher I worked with a few French PhD students and they tend to send me documents Libre documents and spreadsheets.
  - jimbob45 1y ago
    Oh then it’s dead. LibreOffice never Just Works™. Ideological changes like this only work if they’re painless for the hoi polloi.
    - resource_waste 1y ago
      LibreOffice UI is so awful I'm 90% convinced there is a Microsoft plant that actively disrupts progress. I don't lurk the github, so I'm just assuming there are a few accounts that disagree with UI improvements just to kill time and fake debate. But yeah that UI is just awful. Further, you mention any UI issue on the subreddit and you get banned. Yeah... Really a shame, Fedora + Google's Office Suite has been a near complete replacement for me. Although Sheets could be improved a bit.
      - 1y ago
patcon 1y ago
This does not surprise me. I've had the sense that the French government has been really forward in open source thinking since my interactions with ETAlab back in 2017. They were tracking some really bleeding edge civic tech stuff before anyone else was (including g0v.tw and the vTaiwan project) https://g0v.tw/intl/en/ https://g0v.tw/intl/en/ https://info.vtaiwan.tw https://info.vtaiwan.tw
fdefitte 1y ago
This makes total sense. When a country is creating public software, it should be open source by default. This is the only way to create trust. In the long run, open source and closed source government software will probably differentiate dictatorships from democracies
- ryanmentor 1y ago
  Free and Open Technology for a Free and Open Society
  - fsflover 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software%2C_Free_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software%2C_Free_Society
- hx8 1y ago
  > differentiate dictatorships from democracies At first glance I thought this was hyperbole, but after reflection I'm not sure it's even an exaggeration. Too much critical infrastructure of power (voting, census, taxation, reporting, compliance) runs of software for us to accept anything less than full transparency from our governments.
  - dgfitz 1y ago
    There’s always holes. How can we know for sure the binaries running on the voting machines are compiled from the open source repo? It’s turtles all the way down.
    - logifail 1y ago
      > How can we know for sure the binaries running on the voting machines [..] As far as elections are concerned, give me paper ballots every day, and make sure you count them by hand with plenty of Mk I human observers present.
      - 1y ago
godelski 1y ago
Does anyone know what Mercedes-Benz is doing? I can see why many of the others are on the endorsement list but this one seems out of place. I'm not a car nerd though so I'm sure there is something I'm really missing and be interested in learning about.
- richiebful1 1y ago
  They have an entire webpage/associated github repository. It doesn't seem like they've published anything terribly well-known, but good on them for releasing some tooling https://opensource.mercedes-benz.com/projects/ https://opensource.mercedes-benz.com/projects/
  - godelski 1y ago
    Thanks! I wish the page had linked to this!
  - jamesfinlayson 1y ago
    I remember knowing someone who worked in banking (completely non-technical role) telling me in 2011 I think about how a team doing work for him had lifted some code from a Mercedes Benz project and he was telling me how surprised he was that they could just do that.
ksec 1y ago
I cany see anywhere how they define open source? Because I am sensing it is pretty much GPL or even AGPL only.
- rad_gruchalski 1y ago
  What’s wrong with that?
  - ksec 1y ago
    That is saying no to MIT and BSD.
twodave 1y ago
As an American, this sort of brings back into question for me thoughts of, "What should constitute a public utility in a Capitalism society?" Upon doing some cursory research (so cursory that I'm afraid to provide links), it occurs to me that I was maybe under a false impression that there _are_ any nationwide public utilities in the first place. We basically have: * The Federal Reserve * The Interstate Highway System * The Postal Service * Homeland Security * Medicaid/Medicare (does this even fit the list?) * Other entitlements I'm also not sure fit this list Did I leave anything major out? But getting to the point, I think the question is relevant because in order for something like this set of principles to take hold in the US I think we'd essentially have to kill certain classes of software in the private sector. Can you imagine the sorts of craziness that would ensure if the US government tried to adopt LibreOffice? Maybe it could happen at the state or municipal level, but we can't even agree that the government should own any of the power lines.
- derektank 1y ago
  You forgot NIST, which incidentally would probably be the appropriate agency to handle management of open source software
- wyldfire 1y ago
  > Did I leave anything major out? You've limited your list to federal services. But state and local governments provide plenty more "public utility in a Capitalism society", don't they? Schools, fire protection, police for example.
  - twodave 1y ago
    Yeah I did. I realize that each state and municipality has the ability to do this. But they aren’t countries. Is it fair to compare e.g. one cherry-picked state to France? I thought maybe it wasn’t, but you certainly have a point.
- hx8 1y ago
  Federal Aviation Administration keeps the skies a public utility. Federal Communication Commission keeps part of the wireless communication spectrum open to the public. National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management keeps some public land available for everyone to use. The Library of Congress. National Public Radio and Public Broadcasting Service probably satisfy "Public Utility" as much as Medicaid. Federal Emergency Management Agency would be another stretch, but not something I would consider an entitlement program.
rr808 1y ago
I'd love to see a coordinated drive to get most off the world onto opensource and off Windows/MacOS/iOS/Android as well as databases etc. American tech companies are making billions off these products that really are simple and could be replaced.
- randall 1y ago
  [flagged]
- II2II 1y ago
  > American tech companies are making billions off these products that really are simple and could be replaced. The trouble is that simple concepts are not necessarily simple to implement. Tuning software for performance (e.g. to handle a large user base), security, and maintenance are all resource intensive. Then you have to consider that large user bases have diverse needs, which results in more complex software. Then there are the largest hurdles of all, training people in the use of new software and interoperability during the transition.
- resource_waste 1y ago
  What a time to be alive to see Android on that list.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
idoubtit 1y ago
This is just for show, and facts won't follow. It's not the first time a French government vows to stick to Open Source. Yet most of the public money goes to proprietary software, and Open Source is the exception. Two months ago, the French government signed an "open bar" contract with Microsoft for the "Éducation Nationale" department. 152 M€, not for Open Source. Source (fr) https://www.april.org/nouvel-open-bar-microsoft-le-ministere-de-l-education-nationale-va-t-il-enfin-commencer-sa-cure-de-d https://www.april.org/nouvel-open-bar-microsoft-le-ministere... A few days after that, a major state-owned institution (Polytechnique) announced it was migrating (including the email system) to MS Office 365. Even if it violates several laws and official decrees (it's a semi-military school). Source (fr) https://cnll.fr/news/polytechnique-men-office-365/ https://cnll.fr/news/polytechnique-men-office-365/
- ErrorNoBrain 1y ago
  it's still a step in the right direction and its coming on the back of US and Trumps tarif shittalk.. there's also talk about moving away from american software giants, among government sections in my country. Recently one such section moved from AWS to Hetzner (saving money in the process) i've also heard talk about making EU-based alternatives to the office suite, etc.
- gerdesj 1y ago
  Let's see what happens but I get that prior, demonstrable, actions are not conducive.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  There's some aspects that make it a more nuanced situation: - you won't see angry letters in the news about services sticking to open source after they chose to move in - the reason the CNLL can point the finger at Poytechnique is because there are explicit directives. Not even having those would be way worse. - "Most of the public money" : Open Source contracts won't be in billions of euros most of the time, especially as a lot of the money will go to internal hiring and only a slice to external contractors.
- resource_waste 1y ago
dodongobongo 1y ago
“Various companies use the US government to bully other countries, but they also use license audits as a reaction to projects that move to open-source software.”: https://lwn.net/Articles/1013776 https://lwn.net/Articles/1013776 I hope this sets a strong precedent for open source public software.
pmarreck 1y ago
It was a subtle but satisfying (at least for me personally) moment in Tron: Legacy (2010) when Sam Flynn, the heir to ENCOM, breaks into the company HQ and releases their latest OS to the darknet for free, essentially forcibly-open-sourcing it as a protest against excessive corporate greed.
- mepian 1y ago
  Leaking the source code is not forcibly-open-sourcing it, as multiple Windows leaks show.
somat 1y ago
Compare to the US Open Source Principles where things become public domain by default. https://www.usgs.gov/products/software https://www.usgs.gov/products/software
litbear2022 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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pabs3 1y ago
Wonder when there will be a French equivalent of or funding for the Sovereign Tech Agency. https://www.sovereign.tech/ https://www.sovereign.tech/
- rad_gruchalski 1y ago
  I have so many issues with German “sovereign” initiatives founded as GmbH companies. This feels so uncompetitive.
  - pabs3 1y ago
    What sort of issues? They are just providing funding for open source, personally I would prefer that sort of funding to corporate funding.
    - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
      A GmbH is s for-profit company. They have a managing director, shareholders, … ultimately it’s a for—profit org established on an insider-level knowledge and good luck creating a competitive business to the one of those players. Case in point: Bundesanzeiger Verlag GmbH.
      - pabs3 1y ago
        Some links for other folks looking at this: https://www.sovereign.tech/legal https://www.sovereign.tech/legal https://www.sovereign.tech/faq https://www.sovereign.tech/faq https://www.sprind.org/ https://www.sprind.org/ https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Sprunginnovationen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Sprungi... I guess the government wouldn't fund more than one such org, even if the additional ones were non-profit instead. At least NLnet (similar org from .nl) is a registered charity. IIRC its funds are from the EU level though. https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ What happened with Bundesanzeiger Verlag GmbH?
wyldfire 1y ago
I would love to see more public funds going towards open source. Even if it were directed to private companies' cloud CI services, it would be a great boon. Many projects have to balance how many build/test configurations with the available CI resources.
- deleted 1y ago
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jart 1y ago
The government getting interested in open source should terrify us all. The UN formally defining principles for what it means is a soft form of regulation that's only going to get more authoritarian over time. Traveling down this road, we're going to find ourselves living in a world where you're only allowed to share software if (1) you're working for a corporation, or (2) you're working for the government. Because (1) and (2) will have their lives managed and regulated and won't do anything they're not told to do. Anyone who wants to be a hobbyist who writes code of their own free will and shares it on GitHub just for fun will be criminalized, just like anyone today who wants to do farming just for fun is criminalized. Once they make these principles part of the law, it'll grow like the tax code, and be enforced. You used C and didn't write documentation? You're outlawed! Believe me when I say the government is not here to help. Code is speech and there'll be no freedom left the day our right to share what we've written in our preferred language in our own preferred way is taken away.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- throw__away7391 1y ago
  This comes across as more than a little bit fanciful, nevertheless I agree with the sentiment. There's an awful lot of people on the sidelines with their eyes on gaining control over software with intentions that are not at all reflected by what they state publicly. We do not need some political body to come "help", they have no understanding of what makes this work in the first place and nothing of value to contribute.
  - immibis 1y ago
    All free (as in beer) work on software is voluntary. You do not need, and should not have, someone breathing down your neck to make you do it the way they want. However, that person is free to decide to allocate additional effort to work on the software themselves - even forking yours. They're also free to decide how much open source software they want to use, and which. This is something I used to misunderstand too. That open source was something where there were a fixed set of projects available, one or two for each purpose, and if you wanted a change, you contributed that change and they take it. In reality, it's where everyone has their own project that does the thing they want. Most are written by one person or by tight-knit groups. Drive-by contributions often cost as much for the developers to process as just doing the contribution themselves. If you don't like how some software works, you have the right to write your own software using the existing software as a starting point - you do not have a right to edit the existing project. These are the same rights the UN has.
pawanjswal 1y ago
Big move by France, leading the way in open source with real global impact!
bookofjoe 1y ago
One word: Minitel
hollow-moe 1y ago
Big smokescreen, they only open the most trivial software. "France Identité" the virtual ID card has been closed source since day 1 and also happens to use Play Integrity.
ximm 1y ago
What are the UN Open Source Principles? Can anyone share a link to the original document? I could not find anything relevant on Google.
ldubost 1y ago
A good news as part of this is that the United Nations is gathering the endorsements using end to end encrypted software CryptPad Forms (https://cryptpad.fr/form/#/2/form/view/GvF3q-LsyL-OZgX4G0r2pQS8Ju3erZ-zmmkCWgAkiDc/ https://cryptpad.fr/form/#/2/form/view/GvF3q-LsyL-OZgX4G0r2p...) This is great because it stops giving users to services which don't respect privacy. If you don't know CryptPad which provides forms but also many editors including Office with end to encryption, try it at https://cryptpad.fr https://cryptpad.fr
sabas_ge 1y ago
UN has Open Source principles but it took a budget decrease to consider it for itself and it's still not approved...
sunshine-o 1y ago
At this point Open Source doesn't mean anything anymore. It is like everybody putting a "fat free" logo on highly processed junk food a few decades ago. Yes but what is fat exactly? What really make me suspicious is there is now a very dense web of fake, captured foundations and non profits with a lot of money flowing through them. Most of them do not write any code of course and it is very hard to understand they purpose or what they do beyond "advocacy". None of those Open Source advocates care about the most urgent problems like the fact that now almost every human has one of the most locked up system in its hand (yes I know about AOSP) or we can't trust the connected micro-controllers in our homes. Instead they have as their top goal to fight things like climate change [0] (I wish) Strangely postmarketOS (the ones trying to make possible that we don't have to trash those cellphones after 3 years) survives on €12656 in yearly donations, €11175 after banks fees [1]. So probably less than the monthly salary of most of those foundations executives and employees. Or probably the cost of one big Zoom meeting in the UN. Also ask yourself why the FSF, GNU and RMS have been marginalized while Open Source became an UN level cause... - [0] https://www.digitalpublicgoods.net/digital-public-goods-alliance-strategy-2023-2028 https://www.digitalpublicgoods.net/digital-public-goods-alli... - [1] https://postmarketos.org/blog/2025/03/17/pmOS-budget-and-financial-update/ https://postmarketos.org/blog/2025/03/17/pmOS-budget-and-fin...
- robert_foss 1y ago
  I don't think I agree with any part of this take, other than postmarketOS having a bit more money would be nice.
  - sunshine-o 1y ago
    Which part? While in many way software freedom won the server and workstation battle, we lost all the new battlefront which opened in the last two decades: - Phones (the thing in the hand of almost every human now. And sorry LineageOS and GrapheneOS are quickly being marginalized now by things like Google Play Integrity) - Javascript (yes it is a big problem [0]) - the Cloud - IoT The FSF was actually pretty good at identifying those issue early on but was overwhelmed and probably marginalized because they were right. Notice that none of those new "Open Source" advocates really care about those ubiquitous issues. We won some battles but lost the war. The fact France endorses some UN Open Source principles really doesn't matter. You might think caring about software freedom is almost fringe but look at: - The US freaking out about all those Chinese devices and cyber attacks, - The EU now freaking out about US big tech and the cloud. I believe the best way to safeguard sovereignty and safety is for everyone be able to control as much as possible what is running on our "computers" and as close to you as possible. The FSF [1] has been consistent regarding those issue and doing something about it. But also some other folks like OpenBSD [2]. Very unclear to me what the goals of the UN and the OSI type foundations really is. - [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html - [1] https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/campaigns-summaries https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/campaigns-summaries - [2] https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html
pauletienney 1y ago
As an illustration of it: I have been working for two years on a new national project for the french state. Le Référentiel National des Bâtiments (for National Buildings Registry) which aim at creating and distributing a id key to every building in the country. The goal is to make databases about buildings much more interoperable. One key aspect is to have a precise list of all buildings includings recent constructions and demolition. It gets interesting because we recognize nobody in the country has the perfect list of buildings so we radically open the data to let governement agencies, cities, companies, citizens write directly in the registry. Think OSM or Wikipédia but for an official dataset. This approach is very experimental for the french state and we are encouraged to test it and disseminate our learnings in other state branches.
- jraph 1y ago
  Nice! Since OSM is, among other things, a list of building, will there be exchanges between the two projects? Are the licenses of the two projects compatible?
  - pauletienney 1y ago
    Well, we have some connections with the community and we are discussing how to incorporate our buildings IDs in OSM. The other way around (OSM to national registry) seems more complicated for license reasons. Last summer we tested the open approch by doing a "RNB Summer game". Basically, anyone could come on the map and send some error reporting, we had a score per player, per territory and a shared global score. The OSM community absolutely rolled ont the game :)
- agumonkey 1y ago
  Very interesting news. Is there an official portal where we can follow this project or similar efforts ? Good luck (and thanks)
  - pauletienney 1y ago
    Thanks. Here is the website (in french): https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr and the documentation (also in french): https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr/doc https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr/doc
keepamovin 1y ago
Software is sort of like real estate. It costs to maintain otherwise depreciated in value so you must be judicious with your investments. Unlike real property there’s not such a resale market, so you probably must be even more judicious. It’s quite a thing for anyone to commit to software maintenance. The idea of open source that there will always be volunteers that reduce the fees you pay for maintenance is not a certainty.
keepamovin 1y ago
Software is sort of like real estate. It costs to maintain otherwise depreciates in value so you must be judicious with your investments. Unlike real property there’s not such a resale market, so you probably must be even more judicious. It’s quite a thing for anyone to commit to software maintenance. The idea of open source that there will always be volunteers that reduce the fees you pay for maintenance is not a certainty.
sylware 1y ago
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rmnclmnt 1y ago
Truly hope that catches on, and not only for the « datalab » (incubation startup-like inside the gov doing cool stuff). As a citizen, if only the first rule could become true for new and existing online public services such as « URSSAF », « Les Impôts » and « AMELI », that would be a great step forward (but I guess that will never happened as the hugh consulting firms developing these won’t have the same view on the matter)
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
zoobab 1y ago
France has joined the Unified Patent Court (UPC), which will rubberstamp software patents in France, as it is replacing the french National Courts.
kazinator 1y ago
Is this the same country where it takes 15 years of litigation to figure out whether a GPA violation should be treated as a contract breach or copyright matter?

617 points by bzg 1y ago

I'm always hoping to see more coverage of this initiative to drive Open Source adoption both within the United Nations and globally... https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/05/04/2350224/the-un-ditches-google-for-form-submissions-opts-for-open-source-cryptpad-instead https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/05/04/2350224/the-un-ditc...

johnea 1y ago
Thanks for the slashdot link, which also links to the UN: https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-o... Is there other access to the French announcement? That Mastodon link: social.numerique.gouv.fr, isn't viewable for me...
- bzg 1y ago
  Disclaimer: I work for code.gouv.fr. No, there is no official French announcement (yet).
  - johnea 1y ago
    Thanks for your reply!
- pabs3 1y ago
  If it doesn't work due to JS being off, try this tool: https://github.com/jwilk/zygolophodon https://github.com/jwilk/zygolophodon

andy99 1y ago

Curious to know if this extends to LLMs and if so how they would define open source. Specifically it would be nice to see repudiation of Meta's "Open" BS by a nation state.

b112 1y ago
I wouldn't call data "source", whether a book, a sound track, video, etc. In my view of the world, the code to train, the software to run, that's open source joy. Now... should the trained, and vectored data be free? Maybe so. But I bet this UN thing doesn't cover that.
- andy99 1y ago
  I didn't call the data the source and in the past have explicitly argued that training data is not necessary to exercise the freedoms normally associated with open source. Llama models have usage restrictions that go against any mainstream definitions of open source.
  - b112 1y ago
    The model is part of the data, agreed? Anyhow, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, simply stating my thoughts. And I focused on data because I see OSS code everywhere, so presume there is no issue there.
shakna 1y ago
They're just those eight guidelines. Not particularly precise, with intent mattering more than any definition. This isn't a policy, just a goal.
bzg 1y ago
https://www.comparia.beta.gouv.fr/modeles https://www.comparia.beta.gouv.fr/modeles compares models and Llama different licenses are not mislabeled as "open source". Also, https://opensource.org/ai/endorsements https://opensource.org/ai/endorsements shows code.gouv.fr in the list.
- andy99 1y ago
  Cool, thanks! Cette licence permet d'utiliser, reproduire, modifier et distribuer librement le code avec attribution, mais impose des restrictions pour les opérations dépassant 700 millions d'utilisateurs mensuels. Interesting they only mention the 700 million users thing and not the other restrictions on use. Personally I could regard the prohibition against basically Google and Microsoft using it to be a minor transgression, it's the larger list of unacceptable uses that's the big problem.

nashashmi 1y ago

What business and role can the UN have to get into open source solutions?

johnea 1y ago
Governance?
- nashashmi 1y ago
  What governance would you need for open source? Don’t steal?
  - johnea 1y ago
    I guess my one word reply to the one sentence question wasn't really clear: The UN can define standards and suggest processes to encourage the adoption and interoperability of free software in governance.
ambicapter 1y ago
These are principles, aka standards, not solutions.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> What business and role can the UN have to get into open source solutions? The UN has a nine figure IT budget for starters.

aaron695 1y ago

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ArthurStacks 1y ago

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bgwalter 1y ago
[flagged]

fdefitte 1y ago

France has an undeserved bad reputation for this stuff. As a french citizen, I'm amazed to see how easy it has become to do anything administrative online, with great tools such as France Connect that allows a single login method for any administrative tool.

azemetre 1y ago
Do you happen to now if France has public jobs for software devs or is it more like a governmental agency (which I guess is also a public sector job but feels different)?
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  AFAK each agency/entity manages its staff and can hire accordingly. For the big project, my mental image is a public call for proposal, followed by one of the bigger groups (e.g. Cap Gemini) coming up with an initial solution that gets deployed. From there it becomes a mix of the public agency staff doing the day to day operation and maintenance, potentially including small bug fixes and updates, and external contracting again for wider range feature additions or changes like system wide security compliance.
leesalminen 1y ago
Like distributing an iOS app in France that uses encryption? What a pain in the ass that is. The bureaucracy was painful enough that we just removed from the French App Store and when someone complains we tell them to write their representatives to stop with these misguided laws. Excuse me, monsieur, do you have a license for that math?
- aborsy 1y ago
  Some apps have refused to distribute in French store for this reason, such as Syncthing apps Mobius and Synctrain.
- orwin 1y ago
  You can't sell encryption in France if you haven't proved it actually is strong encryption and not a rot13 or something, which is actually a _very_ good idea. Could the implementation be better? Knowing french admin, 100% yes, but complaining about the law itself is, in my opinion, misguided. This is an overall good law that doesn't came from nowhere.

canvascritic 1y ago

Real question is whether this is just symbolic or if the French state will actually redirect procurement pipelines + vendor mandates around these principles. i'd be more impressed if this came bundled with policy teeth, e.g. requiring all software vendors to deliver open-by-default interfaces or pushing funding toward open infra maintenance. Otherwise it's hardly much more than a manifesto

fdefitte 1y ago
I think it's more a guideline principle for public software, for exemple apps that are used by citizens to declare taxes, renews IDs...
RandomWorker 1y ago
It will take time but yes. There are already numerous case studies. Libre office is already running on more than 500k gov computers. Anecdotical story, as a researcher I worked with a few French PhD students and they tend to send me documents Libre documents and spreadsheets.
- jimbob45 1y ago
  Oh then it’s dead. LibreOffice never Just Works™. Ideological changes like this only work if they’re painless for the hoi polloi.
  - resource_waste 1y ago
    LibreOffice UI is so awful I'm 90% convinced there is a Microsoft plant that actively disrupts progress. I don't lurk the github, so I'm just assuming there are a few accounts that disagree with UI improvements just to kill time and fake debate. But yeah that UI is just awful. Further, you mention any UI issue on the subreddit and you get banned. Yeah... Really a shame, Fedora + Google's Office Suite has been a near complete replacement for me. Although Sheets could be improved a bit.
    - 1y ago

patcon 1y ago

This does not surprise me. I've had the sense that the French government has been really forward in open source thinking since my interactions with ETAlab back in 2017. They were tracking some really bleeding edge civic tech stuff before anyone else was (including g0v.tw and the vTaiwan project) https://g0v.tw/intl/en/ https://g0v.tw/intl/en/ https://info.vtaiwan.tw https://info.vtaiwan.tw

fdefitte 1y ago

This makes total sense. When a country is creating public software, it should be open source by default. This is the only way to create trust. In the long run, open source and closed source government software will probably differentiate dictatorships from democracies

ryanmentor 1y ago
Free and Open Technology for a Free and Open Society
- fsflover 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software%2C_Free_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software%2C_Free_Society
hx8 1y ago
> differentiate dictatorships from democracies At first glance I thought this was hyperbole, but after reflection I'm not sure it's even an exaggeration. Too much critical infrastructure of power (voting, census, taxation, reporting, compliance) runs of software for us to accept anything less than full transparency from our governments.
- dgfitz 1y ago
  There’s always holes. How can we know for sure the binaries running on the voting machines are compiled from the open source repo? It’s turtles all the way down.
  - logifail 1y ago
    > How can we know for sure the binaries running on the voting machines [..] As far as elections are concerned, give me paper ballots every day, and make sure you count them by hand with plenty of Mk I human observers present.
    - 1y ago

godelski 1y ago

Does anyone know what Mercedes-Benz is doing? I can see why many of the others are on the endorsement list but this one seems out of place. I'm not a car nerd though so I'm sure there is something I'm really missing and be interested in learning about.

richiebful1 1y ago
They have an entire webpage/associated github repository. It doesn't seem like they've published anything terribly well-known, but good on them for releasing some tooling https://opensource.mercedes-benz.com/projects/ https://opensource.mercedes-benz.com/projects/
- godelski 1y ago
  Thanks! I wish the page had linked to this!
- jamesfinlayson 1y ago
  I remember knowing someone who worked in banking (completely non-technical role) telling me in 2011 I think about how a team doing work for him had lifted some code from a Mercedes Benz project and he was telling me how surprised he was that they could just do that.

ksec 1y ago

I cany see anywhere how they define open source? Because I am sensing it is pretty much GPL or even AGPL only.

rad_gruchalski 1y ago
What’s wrong with that?
- ksec 1y ago
  That is saying no to MIT and BSD.

twodave 1y ago

As an American, this sort of brings back into question for me thoughts of, "What should constitute a public utility in a Capitalism society?" Upon doing some cursory research (so cursory that I'm afraid to provide links), it occurs to me that I was maybe under a false impression that there _are_ any nationwide public utilities in the first place. We basically have: * The Federal Reserve * The Interstate Highway System * The Postal Service * Homeland Security * Medicaid/Medicare (does this even fit the list?) * Other entitlements I'm also not sure fit this list Did I leave anything major out? But getting to the point, I think the question is relevant because in order for something like this set of principles to take hold in the US I think we'd essentially have to kill certain classes of software in the private sector. Can you imagine the sorts of craziness that would ensure if the US government tried to adopt LibreOffice? Maybe it could happen at the state or municipal level, but we can't even agree that the government should own any of the power lines.

derektank 1y ago
You forgot NIST, which incidentally would probably be the appropriate agency to handle management of open source software
wyldfire 1y ago
> Did I leave anything major out? You've limited your list to federal services. But state and local governments provide plenty more "public utility in a Capitalism society", don't they? Schools, fire protection, police for example.
- twodave 1y ago
  Yeah I did. I realize that each state and municipality has the ability to do this. But they aren’t countries. Is it fair to compare e.g. one cherry-picked state to France? I thought maybe it wasn’t, but you certainly have a point.
hx8 1y ago
Federal Aviation Administration keeps the skies a public utility. Federal Communication Commission keeps part of the wireless communication spectrum open to the public. National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management keeps some public land available for everyone to use. The Library of Congress. National Public Radio and Public Broadcasting Service probably satisfy "Public Utility" as much as Medicaid. Federal Emergency Management Agency would be another stretch, but not something I would consider an entitlement program.

rr808 1y ago

I'd love to see a coordinated drive to get most off the world onto opensource and off Windows/MacOS/iOS/Android as well as databases etc. American tech companies are making billions off these products that really are simple and could be replaced.

randall 1y ago
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II2II 1y ago
> American tech companies are making billions off these products that really are simple and could be replaced. The trouble is that simple concepts are not necessarily simple to implement. Tuning software for performance (e.g. to handle a large user base), security, and maintenance are all resource intensive. Then you have to consider that large user bases have diverse needs, which results in more complex software. Then there are the largest hurdles of all, training people in the use of new software and interoperability during the transition.
resource_waste 1y ago
What a time to be alive to see Android on that list.
deleted 1y ago
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idoubtit 1y ago

This is just for show, and facts won't follow. It's not the first time a French government vows to stick to Open Source. Yet most of the public money goes to proprietary software, and Open Source is the exception. Two months ago, the French government signed an "open bar" contract with Microsoft for the "Éducation Nationale" department. 152 M€, not for Open Source. Source (fr) https://www.april.org/nouvel-open-bar-microsoft-le-ministere-de-l-education-nationale-va-t-il-enfin-commencer-sa-cure-de-d https://www.april.org/nouvel-open-bar-microsoft-le-ministere... A few days after that, a major state-owned institution (Polytechnique) announced it was migrating (including the email system) to MS Office 365. Even if it violates several laws and official decrees (it's a semi-military school). Source (fr) https://cnll.fr/news/polytechnique-men-office-365/ https://cnll.fr/news/polytechnique-men-office-365/

ErrorNoBrain 1y ago
it's still a step in the right direction and its coming on the back of US and Trumps tarif shittalk.. there's also talk about moving away from american software giants, among government sections in my country. Recently one such section moved from AWS to Hetzner (saving money in the process) i've also heard talk about making EU-based alternatives to the office suite, etc.
gerdesj 1y ago
Let's see what happens but I get that prior, demonstrable, actions are not conducive.
makeitdouble 1y ago
There's some aspects that make it a more nuanced situation: - you won't see angry letters in the news about services sticking to open source after they chose to move in - the reason the CNLL can point the finger at Poytechnique is because there are explicit directives. Not even having those would be way worse. - "Most of the public money" : Open Source contracts won't be in billions of euros most of the time, especially as a lot of the money will go to internal hiring and only a slice to external contractors.
resource_waste 1y ago

dodongobongo 1y ago

“Various companies use the US government to bully other countries, but they also use license audits as a reaction to projects that move to open-source software.”: https://lwn.net/Articles/1013776 https://lwn.net/Articles/1013776 I hope this sets a strong precedent for open source public software.

pmarreck 1y ago

It was a subtle but satisfying (at least for me personally) moment in Tron: Legacy (2010) when Sam Flynn, the heir to ENCOM, breaks into the company HQ and releases their latest OS to the darknet for free, essentially forcibly-open-sourcing it as a protest against excessive corporate greed.

mepian 1y ago
Leaking the source code is not forcibly-open-sourcing it, as multiple Windows leaks show.

somat 1y ago

Compare to the US Open Source Principles where things become public domain by default. https://www.usgs.gov/products/software https://www.usgs.gov/products/software

litbear2022 1y ago

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deleted 1y ago
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pabs3 1y ago

Wonder when there will be a French equivalent of or funding for the Sovereign Tech Agency. https://www.sovereign.tech/ https://www.sovereign.tech/

rad_gruchalski 1y ago
I have so many issues with German “sovereign” initiatives founded as GmbH companies. This feels so uncompetitive.
- pabs3 1y ago
  What sort of issues? They are just providing funding for open source, personally I would prefer that sort of funding to corporate funding.
  - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
    A GmbH is s for-profit company. They have a managing director, shareholders, … ultimately it’s a for—profit org established on an insider-level knowledge and good luck creating a competitive business to the one of those players. Case in point: Bundesanzeiger Verlag GmbH.
    - pabs3 1y ago
      Some links for other folks looking at this: https://www.sovereign.tech/legal https://www.sovereign.tech/legal https://www.sovereign.tech/faq https://www.sovereign.tech/faq https://www.sprind.org/ https://www.sprind.org/ https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Sprunginnovationen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Sprungi... I guess the government wouldn't fund more than one such org, even if the additional ones were non-profit instead. At least NLnet (similar org from .nl) is a registered charity. IIRC its funds are from the EU level though. https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ What happened with Bundesanzeiger Verlag GmbH?

wyldfire 1y ago

I would love to see more public funds going towards open source. Even if it were directed to private companies' cloud CI services, it would be a great boon. Many projects have to balance how many build/test configurations with the available CI resources.

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jart 1y ago

The government getting interested in open source should terrify us all. The UN formally defining principles for what it means is a soft form of regulation that's only going to get more authoritarian over time. Traveling down this road, we're going to find ourselves living in a world where you're only allowed to share software if (1) you're working for a corporation, or (2) you're working for the government. Because (1) and (2) will have their lives managed and regulated and won't do anything they're not told to do. Anyone who wants to be a hobbyist who writes code of their own free will and shares it on GitHub just for fun will be criminalized, just like anyone today who wants to do farming just for fun is criminalized. Once they make these principles part of the law, it'll grow like the tax code, and be enforced. You used C and didn't write documentation? You're outlawed! Believe me when I say the government is not here to help. Code is speech and there'll be no freedom left the day our right to share what we've written in our preferred language in our own preferred way is taken away.

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throw__away7391 1y ago
This comes across as more than a little bit fanciful, nevertheless I agree with the sentiment. There's an awful lot of people on the sidelines with their eyes on gaining control over software with intentions that are not at all reflected by what they state publicly. We do not need some political body to come "help", they have no understanding of what makes this work in the first place and nothing of value to contribute.
- immibis 1y ago
  All free (as in beer) work on software is voluntary. You do not need, and should not have, someone breathing down your neck to make you do it the way they want. However, that person is free to decide to allocate additional effort to work on the software themselves - even forking yours. They're also free to decide how much open source software they want to use, and which. This is something I used to misunderstand too. That open source was something where there were a fixed set of projects available, one or two for each purpose, and if you wanted a change, you contributed that change and they take it. In reality, it's where everyone has their own project that does the thing they want. Most are written by one person or by tight-knit groups. Drive-by contributions often cost as much for the developers to process as just doing the contribution themselves. If you don't like how some software works, you have the right to write your own software using the existing software as a starting point - you do not have a right to edit the existing project. These are the same rights the UN has.

pawanjswal 1y ago

Big move by France, leading the way in open source with real global impact!

bookofjoe 1y ago

One word: Minitel

hollow-moe 1y ago

Big smokescreen, they only open the most trivial software. "France Identité" the virtual ID card has been closed source since day 1 and also happens to use Play Integrity.

ximm 1y ago

What are the UN Open Source Principles? Can anyone share a link to the original document? I could not find anything relevant on Google.

ldubost 1y ago

A good news as part of this is that the United Nations is gathering the endorsements using end to end encrypted software CryptPad Forms (https://cryptpad.fr/form/#/2/form/view/GvF3q-LsyL-OZgX4G0r2pQS8Ju3erZ-zmmkCWgAkiDc/ https://cryptpad.fr/form/#/2/form/view/GvF3q-LsyL-OZgX4G0r2p...) This is great because it stops giving users to services which don't respect privacy. If you don't know CryptPad which provides forms but also many editors including Office with end to encryption, try it at https://cryptpad.fr https://cryptpad.fr

sabas_ge 1y ago

UN has Open Source principles but it took a budget decrease to consider it for itself and it's still not approved...

sunshine-o 1y ago

At this point Open Source doesn't mean anything anymore. It is like everybody putting a "fat free" logo on highly processed junk food a few decades ago. Yes but what is fat exactly? What really make me suspicious is there is now a very dense web of fake, captured foundations and non profits with a lot of money flowing through them. Most of them do not write any code of course and it is very hard to understand they purpose or what they do beyond "advocacy". None of those Open Source advocates care about the most urgent problems like the fact that now almost every human has one of the most locked up system in its hand (yes I know about AOSP) or we can't trust the connected micro-controllers in our homes. Instead they have as their top goal to fight things like climate change [0] (I wish) Strangely postmarketOS (the ones trying to make possible that we don't have to trash those cellphones after 3 years) survives on €12656 in yearly donations, €11175 after banks fees [1]. So probably less than the monthly salary of most of those foundations executives and employees. Or probably the cost of one big Zoom meeting in the UN. Also ask yourself why the FSF, GNU and RMS have been marginalized while Open Source became an UN level cause... - [0] https://www.digitalpublicgoods.net/digital-public-goods-alliance-strategy-2023-2028 https://www.digitalpublicgoods.net/digital-public-goods-alli... - [1] https://postmarketos.org/blog/2025/03/17/pmOS-budget-and-financial-update/ https://postmarketos.org/blog/2025/03/17/pmOS-budget-and-fin...

robert_foss 1y ago
I don't think I agree with any part of this take, other than postmarketOS having a bit more money would be nice.
- sunshine-o 1y ago
  Which part? While in many way software freedom won the server and workstation battle, we lost all the new battlefront which opened in the last two decades: - Phones (the thing in the hand of almost every human now. And sorry LineageOS and GrapheneOS are quickly being marginalized now by things like Google Play Integrity) - Javascript (yes it is a big problem [0]) - the Cloud - IoT The FSF was actually pretty good at identifying those issue early on but was overwhelmed and probably marginalized because they were right. Notice that none of those new "Open Source" advocates really care about those ubiquitous issues. We won some battles but lost the war. The fact France endorses some UN Open Source principles really doesn't matter. You might think caring about software freedom is almost fringe but look at: - The US freaking out about all those Chinese devices and cyber attacks, - The EU now freaking out about US big tech and the cloud. I believe the best way to safeguard sovereignty and safety is for everyone be able to control as much as possible what is running on our "computers" and as close to you as possible. The FSF [1] has been consistent regarding those issue and doing something about it. But also some other folks like OpenBSD [2]. Very unclear to me what the goals of the UN and the OSI type foundations really is. - [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html - [1] https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/campaigns-summaries https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/campaigns-summaries - [2] https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html

pauletienney 1y ago

As an illustration of it: I have been working for two years on a new national project for the french state. Le Référentiel National des Bâtiments (for National Buildings Registry) which aim at creating and distributing a id key to every building in the country. The goal is to make databases about buildings much more interoperable. One key aspect is to have a precise list of all buildings includings recent constructions and demolition. It gets interesting because we recognize nobody in the country has the perfect list of buildings so we radically open the data to let governement agencies, cities, companies, citizens write directly in the registry. Think OSM or Wikipédia but for an official dataset. This approach is very experimental for the french state and we are encouraged to test it and disseminate our learnings in other state branches.

jraph 1y ago
Nice! Since OSM is, among other things, a list of building, will there be exchanges between the two projects? Are the licenses of the two projects compatible?
- pauletienney 1y ago
  Well, we have some connections with the community and we are discussing how to incorporate our buildings IDs in OSM. The other way around (OSM to national registry) seems more complicated for license reasons. Last summer we tested the open approch by doing a "RNB Summer game". Basically, anyone could come on the map and send some error reporting, we had a score per player, per territory and a shared global score. The OSM community absolutely rolled ont the game :)
agumonkey 1y ago
Very interesting news. Is there an official portal where we can follow this project or similar efforts ? Good luck (and thanks)
- pauletienney 1y ago
  Thanks. Here is the website (in french): https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr and the documentation (also in french): https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr/doc https://rnb.beta.gouv.fr/doc

keepamovin 1y ago

Software is sort of like real estate. It costs to maintain otherwise depreciated in value so you must be judicious with your investments. Unlike real property there’s not such a resale market, so you probably must be even more judicious. It’s quite a thing for anyone to commit to software maintenance. The idea of open source that there will always be volunteers that reduce the fees you pay for maintenance is not a certainty.

keepamovin 1y ago

Software is sort of like real estate. It costs to maintain otherwise depreciates in value so you must be judicious with your investments. Unlike real property there’s not such a resale market, so you probably must be even more judicious. It’s quite a thing for anyone to commit to software maintenance. The idea of open source that there will always be volunteers that reduce the fees you pay for maintenance is not a certainty.

sylware 1y ago

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rmnclmnt 1y ago

Truly hope that catches on, and not only for the « datalab » (incubation startup-like inside the gov doing cool stuff). As a citizen, if only the first rule could become true for new and existing online public services such as « URSSAF », « Les Impôts » and « AMELI », that would be a great step forward (but I guess that will never happened as the hugh consulting firms developing these won’t have the same view on the matter)

deleted 1y ago

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zoobab 1y ago

France has joined the Unified Patent Court (UPC), which will rubberstamp software patents in France, as it is replacing the french National Courts.

kazinator 1y ago

Is this the same country where it takes 15 years of litigation to figure out whether a GPA violation should be treated as a contract breach or copyright matter?