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"Sorry high schoolers, $70k a year is not happening - this kid is privileged as fuck." My oldest son is 17 years old and graduated one semester early from high
by rsync 1y ago
"Sorry high schoolers, $70k a year is not happening - this kid is privileged as fuck."
My oldest son is 17 years old and graduated one semester early from high school.
He now works full-time as a welder and heavy equipment mechanic with a base rate of $25/hour and will get many, many hours of overtime this summer.
He will easily gross > 70k this year.
Granted, this is in the Bay Area (so add some inflation there) and he has certain physical and interpersonal attributes[1] that make him special ... but this is, indeed, happening and my impression is that it would be repeatable for others like him.
FWIW, he's very proud of himself and we're very proud of him but ... we're also trying to impress upon him that wages - however high - are not a path to wealth and security. Owning things is[2].
[1] He's a big strong guy, projects as aged 20+ and is very outgoing and charismatic.
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- thejazzman 1y agoI mean no disrespect but I'm pretty sure when someone throws out a salary figure they are assuming 40 hours per week You're describing someone hustling very hard. Which is great. But a little different?
- itronitron 1y agoTrue, but let's consider the next age group up from 17, ... graduate students earn less than that, don't get paid overtime, and will have to search for a new job in a few years.
- mmcwilliams 1y agoThat may be true but we're talking about an anecdote. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics tracks that people with a high school education, on average, earn about half of what people with masters degrees earn [0]. It's easy to lose the big picture when focusing on an outlier. [0] https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-education.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-educatio...
- Ifkaluva 1y agoWhat is a “professional degree”, between master’s and PhD?
- mmcwilliams 1y agoThat typically refers to a degree like a JD or MD.
- vlovich123 1y agoIs an undergraduate in engineering a professional degree or an undergrad degree?
- fooker 1y agoThis varies a lot. Some engineering programs make sure students are learning specialized practical skills, others make sure they get a solid grounding in basics so they have an easier time in picking whatever engineering discipline strikes their fancy. There are pros and cons for both.
- michaelt 1y agoIn the chart linked by mmcwilliams, an undergraduate degree in engineering would normally be a "Bachelor's Degree" - assuming the certificate awarded at the end says "bachelor of science" or something similar.
- mmcwilliams 1y agoThe differentiation here is usually that a professional degree follows a bachelors or undergrad degree. Law school and medical school are categorized differently than masters degree programs. In US colleges an engineering degree would typically be an MA and in some fields the MA is not a terminal degree.
- fooker 1y ago> graduate students Interesting comparison. You’re right. The primary difference I can think of is the training to quickly become an expert in a different topic. I know plenty of PhD students accepting jobs in unrelated fields and quickly becoming the local expert in that topic. While possible, it’s far more difficult for a machinist to suddenly become an expert car mechanic like this.
- cduzz 1y agoWere you ever a kid? Kids (kid being someone from 16 to 30 without children of their own, ideally also without substance abuse problem and a home they can sleep in without fear of being assaulted) have nearly infinite energy, capacity to absorb (physical) abuse, and often the focus to learn esoteric subjects, if they're interested in the subject. So I would fully expect a large fraction of bored kids to potentially become expert car mechanics, or tree pruners, algebraic geometers, hadoop experts, air conditioning duct builders, etc, if given access, mentorship, opportunity, recognition, and compensation.
- knob 1y agoHonestly, this is a great way of putting it.
- fooker 1y agoI don’t disagree. After all, that’s exactly how I became an expert in whatever I do right now. You seem to have missed my point though, it was about switching tracks to become an expert in a new thing. A random physics PhD grad might not have a burning passion for fintech, for example but still becomes an expert after three months in the job because of the sheer amount of rigorous training.
- rixed 1y ago...and because we decided to call "expert" any dev with 3 months of experience. Now, how much of this is actual expertise and how much wealth extraction, I really don't know.
- 1y ago
- vlovich123 1y agoAnd let’s consider the next age group up from that with some graduate students easily clearing 150-200k in total comp. Short term pain for long term prosperity - studies related to me was that on average university graduates end up making $1M more than non graduates in lifetime earnings (of course misleading data since university admission is already selecting for something that correlates with ambition AND the professional world tended to prefer university students with opportunities) Of course people pursuing higher education are often doing it for personal growth reasons as well.
- tejohnso 1y ago> wages - however high - are not a path to wealth and security. High wages provide the discretionary income required to invest though. So I'd say, they're not the goal, but if the word path is to be used, I'd say they are part of the path. As far as owning things...investments specifically (not two motorcycles and a hummer), the usual advice is a well balanced portfolio. Could be equities, maybe some real estate, maybe even some crypto, all at different ratios depending on your risk profile. My concern is that we are in a unique time period where all of that is coming to an end and there will be no wealth appreciation even for disciplined investors.
- jopsen 1y ago> My concern is that we are in a unique time period where all of that is coming to an end and there will be no wealth appreciation even for disciplined investors. Everyone always fears the future when their portfolio is down. The best hedge is to also "invest" in something that has value to you. Like bricks / house.
- ghaff 1y agoSome conservative investments at the moment? Especially with some known outflows coming up? Sure. But that doesn't imply giving up on investing.
- Enginerrrd 1y agoNo, of course not but I think you should respond by increasing your savings rate beyond historically safe targets and diversifying even more aggressively.
- ghaff 1y ago100% agree. Part of it is age, and part of it is current situation and needs, but I've definitely dialed back on aggressive investments into safe harbors.
- Enginerrrd 1y ago
- coolcase 1y ago70k doing OT in Bay Area. So what is that in real money, 35k?
- sndean 1y agoYeah, ignoring the OT, 70k in the Bay Area is ~40k in Omaha, Ann Arbor, Orlando, etc [1]. Without the OT it's more like 30k. And if your brain, like mine, hasn't adjusted to inflation yet, that's ~23k in 2019 dollars [2]. [1] Bankrate [2] BLS
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- brudgers 1y agoIf you don’t pay rent, it’s pretty much $70k without rent anywhere else in the US but with better economic opportunities and better amenities. Omaha is cheaper but you can’t go mountain hiking or surfing or skiing on your day off.
- op00to 1y agoSure, Omaha doesn’t have surfing or mountains, but camping, hiking and other outdoor activities are cheaper, less crowded, and way more accessible. You’re not fighting for a campsite or dropping $50 just to sleep outside, and most hiking is free or near-free. No $25 parking fees or permit lotteries just to walk a trail. And saying $70k goes far in the Bay Area if you don’t pay rent is kind of ridiculous. Almost no one lives rent-free. Every well-paid software engineer I know out there is trying to get out. They’re all burned out by housing costs, crowds, and the grind. Amenities don’t mean much if you can’t afford to enjoy them.
- ghaff 1y agoI mean, even an hour west of Boston, there's a ton of hiking/canoeing/etc. mostly with free or cheap parking (have a free parking pass for state stuff). Mostly just do day-trips so not sure what camping spots run. But there's a ton of cheap/free stuff. No, it's not Yosemite though have a pass for national parks as well but plenty of nice stuff.
- spacemadness 1y agoI'm pretty sure OP wasn't talking about the Bay Area which isn't a sane place economically speaking where 70K isn't all that great of a salary, especially with a ton of overtime.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- navane 1y ago70k / 25$/hr / 40hr/week = 70 weeks of fulltime labor
- twarge 1y agoYou missed overtime pay
- gonzo 1y agoThey missed mathematics 2,000 hours / year (straight time, 10 paid days PTO), $35/hour is $70k base.
- ForOldHack 1y agoYou are exactly right. This is how I have calculated it since I took MicroEconomics as a Freshman. P.S. Union Journeyman Welder, Bay Area median salary is $26 ~ $36.82 = $52,000 to $72,400. "The median household income in the Bay Area was $128,151 in 2022, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. This represents a slight decrease from $132,586 in 2019. " So.. 56% of median household income? If him, and his gf worked, then they would collectively make 112% of median household income.
- vlovich123 1y agoBy comparison I was making $75k in the Bay Area as an entry level software engineer with no overtime and only because I was afraid of negotiating higher (I think 85-90 was on the table). This isn’t to take anything away from your son’s achievements and congrats to him and you all should of course be proud of his accomplishments. I think though it’s useful to compare and contrast blue collar and white collar wages in terms of effort per dollar earned as well when discussing options to kids. There’s nothing wrong with working harder for that amount, especially when you love the work because then you get even more pride out of it, but some kids may want to work harder in the “short” term via a professional education for the long term easier path or have better job stability even in the face of physical ailments.
- teaearlgraycold 1y agoWhen was this? Even 6 years ago startups in the bay paid $130-140k to juniors.
- michaelt 1y agoBut do they pay that to 17 year olds without a college degree?
- blitzar 1y ago+ there is a 10% chance the stock they got is now worth $5mil.
- teaearlgraycold 1y ago
- fumeux_fume 1y agoHaha, can't actually tell if this is satire. If it is, then bravo, sir! If it's not, then it's sad this poor father doesn't know his son has dropped out of high school to become welder who needs a ton of OT to scrape by in the Bay Area.
- milkshakes 1y agowe'll see who's laughing in five years
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoWelder employment market is very boom bust (people crowd it when work is well paid because welders are rare, and they leave it when work is not well paid because welders are plentiful), it could go either way in 5 years (programming is the same, but we haven’t had a bust since 2008, and then there was the 80s which was brutal for SWEs).
- hardwaresofton 1y ago> we're also trying to impress upon him that wages - however high - are not a path to wealth and security. Owning things is I'm not a parent, so I'm a little hesitant to disagree, but this seems like the dumbest thing I've heard in my life. Wages are exactly the path to wealth and security -- the matter is what you do with those wages. You can't own things without receiving wages unless you inherit your wealth. If what you were trying to say is that the best path to being wealthy is to already be wealthy, then I definitely agree, but for those born missing their silver spoon wages are the only way. Your kid had his silver spoon (no offense intended here), and it seems like he's going to be a balanced person because he'll probably be able to see and appreciate different worlds, so congrats on that. I find it hard to believe someone can go into a field like welding (knowing tech exists, and having the aptitude). I am curious to hear though -- what is your plan? In my own pre-parent mind it seems like this is a chance to teach him about as much of the world and the people around him/society above and below him as you can before settles into his life (clearly there's a ton of time left to change, etc). The struggles of the average blue collar worker are very different from that of the white collar worker -- but the right advice about the various big things in life I'd imagine would make a world of difference. With regard to owning things, knowing things like "banks giving out mortgages are playing a trust game -- and they trust you a lot more if you have 50 working years left". It's possible of course to get a bad mortgage, but the first rung of the ladder is more about projections more than anything for young people. In the Bay Area I'm sure that... isn't reasonable advice though since your housing market is absolutely insane. Also, is he going into welding with some sort add-on skills? Like welding with a little bit of CS/robotics? Welding with a passion for cooking? etc. The (currently) secondary skill tree can completely change careers.
- trollbridge 1y agoBanks do not engage in age discrimination in giving mortgages. You can get one at age 20 or age 60, all else being equal. It’s a secured asset, so if you turn 65 and need to go into a nursing home for some , or die, they’re confident they can recoup the balance of the loan from the house when it is auctioned off or sold to another family member.
- 1y ago
- carabiner 1y ago> He will easily gross > 70k this year. Granted, this is in the Bay Area (so add some inflation there) Don't waiters in the Bay Area make almost that much? This is not a middle class wage in that region. Edit: Yes waiters make that much https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/s/JlymaN4MPK https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/s/JlymaN4MPK
- class3shock 1y ago"many hours of overtime this summer." I think the biggest misconception with any of the trades jobs is that yes, you can make 70K+, even 100K+, but that involves lots of overtime.
- johnnyanmac 1y agoYeah, is it really a good indicator if you need to work 20 hours overtime every week to make the median household income? That's just exploitation. We also just know that, blue or white, there is no raise structure in society anymore. You can't just do honest work or even be loyal and expect it to pay off financially.
- credit_guy 1y ago> or even be loyal What's loyalty got to do with this? I'm not "loyal" to my employer and I don't know anyone who is. If I find a job that pays better, and offers better conditions, I'll take it. Why would anyone do anything else, and why would anyone put any value on that?
- jimbob45 1y agoTribal knowledge and company familiarity should justify the employer in offering raises to keep the employee around. Hiring someone new almost assuredly costs more in both the front-end and the back-end.
- squigz 1y agoGP is suggesting that the lack of loyalty nowadays is part of the issue.
- johnnyanmac 1y agoYes, loyalty is a two way street. If they aren't loyal to you, you're not getting any payoff by being loyal to them. Times have changed (IMO for the worse).
- 1y ago
- Karrot_Kream 1y agoI'm not sure what the rest of the US market is like, but the Bay Area has a huge shortage of tradespeople because of the 2008 housing crash and very high cost of living pricing folks out. I knew of this but became much more acutely aware when I started doing transit advocacy. Getting folks to build/maintain HVAC systems, weld, drive buses, etc is getting increasingly difficult. If your son can avoid having to buy into the Bay Area housing market (by living on property you own/pay for), he can make good money and probably will have little trouble finding work for years to come.
- tangjurine 1y agothe bay area does not have a shortage of tradespeople. Or any profession, it feels like. For trades, thousands of people apply to be apprentices, for a few spots
- rahimnathwani 1y agoGranted, this is in the Bay Area FYI for those not from the bay area: California mandates that chain restaurants pay at least $20/hour. So $25/hour isn't that much more than entry-level at McDonald's.
- bitmasher9 1y agoBut McDonalds doesn’t really offer OT, which is a huge draw. Many fast food workers work multiple jobs because they need the hours for money, and none of their employers give OT regularly. Working 40 hours at $20/hr = 800/week. Work 40 hours at $25 and 20 at $37.5 = $1750 which is enough to live in the Bay Area.
- baxtr 1y ago>Owning things is" Yes! I learned this from the infamous "Poor dad, rich dad" book. Being an asset owner is probably the best way to become "free".
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]