13 ms·

Observations from people-watching

462 points by jger15 1y ago

polishdude20 1y ago
I think a lot of what the author sees in people is more a reflection of her own self
- the_af 1y ago
  Yes, but this is often true of how we see others. We are not robots, we pour ourselves in others. Still, the article is insightful and a fun read.
- rixed 1y ago
  It would still, like the broken clock, be correct sometimes. Our ability to understand others comes from, and is limited by, the fact that our feelings and behaviors are a mix from a shared palette.
boomskats 1y ago
Beautiful writing and emotional vocabulary. Internal architecture. Feels almost psychedelic.
- mellosouls 1y ago
  I felt the same, genuinely unusual especially in this listicle space.
- turtlebro 1y ago
  It reminds me of how psychedelics can sometimes put you in a hyper observant, heightened state of awareness. Maybe some here have experienced this, it can be very mind blowing. People are open books and communicate much much more then we think we are. Motions, gestures, tiny subtle reactions, the way someone walks, it can give you a direct glance into someones soul. Some people are probably naturally very skilled at being observant, the author being a painter only make sense.
Bjartr 1y ago
This seems like a set of well balanced, if not comprehensive, principles behind how people interact. Even if it's not complete, I think it can still be helpful. There's a lot here that resonates with me, but only in hindsight. I struggle with understanding people emotionally in the moment a lot of the time it'd benefit me if I could internalize this list. As they say, all models are wrong, some are useful.
- thinkingemote 1y ago
  It helped me to do only try to understand myself in the moment or conversation than the other. It is not easy and most of us do not know ourselves. It's actually kind of hard to do. You try to pay attention to the words you are saying, the thoughts you are thinking, the emotions, the feelings, the body posture of yourself. But it's got to be easier than trying to understand another. Doing this eventually lead to a better perception of others. But by then I didn't need to try to do it. I'm still no where near as perceptive as the author of this submission but I've improved. However its a bit like a muscle and needs to be exercised or made into a discipline or habit and I have atrophied over time. I do still have my memories of this though. One thing I noticed by observing others is that most people do not understand themselves. And I include myself in this group almost all the time too. I should get back into this, thank you for your comment.
delichon 1y ago
most people love what loves them back That is exploitable. I tried it and it works. When I was 18 I got a job in a telemarketing boiler room. Two dozen people sitting at long tables with phones and scripts, asking for donations for various causes. Yes I should probably burn in hell for it, but I was a dumb kid. The first day really sucked, but they let me try again and I came with a plan. Before every call imagine my feeling of love for that person. As I read the script, think "I love you grandma". Something magical happened. I got like 3 donations out of 5 calls for the rest of the day. The boss was joyful, I was the flavor of the day. He presented me with an alarmingly large bonus when I left. I was nauseated and never went back. That was my last job in sales.
- walterbell 1y ago
  Observer effect also works for code created by humans.
- neilv 1y ago
  Do you think you might've been able to find a sincere, non-manipulative way of doing it? For example, if you could quickly intuit whether and how much the person naturally would want and be able to donate, and you connect with them on the basis of that, and they might or might not pick up on that themselves, but no mind tricks of either of you? One appealing thing about this is that it's using some of the strongest potential for manipulation, to try to avoid manipulating.
  - scotty79 1y ago
    Probably not. You are taking their money. They become poorer because of your behavior. That doesn't fit with love, no matter how you try to contort yourself.
    - neilv 1y ago
      It doesn't have to be love. If it's for a good cause, the person would like to donate, and can afford some amount, then there's a role for cooperation in facilitating that. As a facilitator, you can look at it like: here's a person who wants to donate, I approve of that, and I can help with that. If you like the person for wanting to do that, and that comes across, and that helps them get past their aversion to sales in general, all the better. Where it can go wrong is if you play manipulation games on them and/or yourself. (Telemarketing modality of phoning and disturbing is a different problem, though. That's a reason not to do it at all, at least not that way. But manipulation can be averted.)
walterbell 1y ago
Another observation by the author: my life became a lot more fun once i realized work can literally be anything, if i know how to sell it (this month i'm paying rent by writing mothers day poems for tech employees to mail their mom)
- sonofhans 1y ago
  Another observation? That seems rather the point of placing this article here on this date, yes?
  - walterbell 1y ago
    To sell last-minute custom poems to HN? Impressive cynicism. Submarine poetry competition might be fun, but the quote is not even from the article. I saw it by randomly clicking on substack, then couldn't even find it again to link here, due to substack's inscrutable layout. Now that you've brought up the topic, how should one sell poems? Maybe start earlier with content marketing and link the product somewhere in the content? Apparently this blog has only been submitted twice to HN, today and three days ago, with zero mention of poetry. But it does mention weddings.
    - smcin 1y ago
      > Submarine poetry competition might be fun... There was an old boomer named Maude, who sold composition by fraud, She got her kicks from spurious clicks but her mores were seriously flawed.
      - danhite 1y ago
        ah, limericks amore, so reflecting more mores ... Once a young techie in YC was asked: Start-ups all why seed? "To save the World of course --shopping cart before horse-- for growth at scale: launch high speed!"
    - sonofhans 1y ago
      Most poets who make any money sell their work by publishing it as song lyrics, I think. I don’t think we have many rock star poets left, and I’d be surprised if many at all made a living at it. I’ve most often bought poems from people sitting on the sidewalk writing them out, FWIW :)
lapcat 1y ago
The author is projecting a lot into the hearts and minds of strangers, based on limited or indeed no interaction with them. These are not scientific observations in any sense. What does the author do to confirm or refute her psychological theories about others? She's very good at telling stories, but these stories feel like fiction, not hard fact.
- deleted 1y ago
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- 1659447091 1y ago
  Sure, the words she uses to represent her observations is a reflection of her self; in that she describes it in a more creatively descriptive way than, say, a scientist in a laboratory. It's observation, not research; but it's also not judgment which is where I find projection lives. Under that I see someone whose job it is to be keenly observant and to notice these things, otherwise she wouldn't be a very good wedding painter. It probably helps that she seems to be passionate about observing people. Why have someone paint your wedding if the painter isn't able to understand and observe the nuances of human interactions going on?
  - epgui 1y ago
    In the extreme, a perception can be very interesting even if it’s delusional.
    - walterbell 1y ago
      Delusional Wedding Paintings, coming soon from your neighborhood LLM!
  - lapcat 1y ago
    > it's also not judgment I disagree. The observations start to become extremely judgmental at around #8 and following. > Why have someone paint your wedding if the painter isn't able to understand and observe the nuances of human interactions going on? Do you think the wedding painter is paid to reproduce the naked reality of the situation, if that happens to be contrary to what the couple wants to see and preserve on canvas forever?
disambiguation 1y ago
I would describe myself as the opposite of OP (very bad at reading people) so it was quite a shock the first time I met someone like this. Not only for the revelation that these type of people exist, but the experience of another person reading my "internal architecture" - and subsequently judging it - it opened a new avenue of self reflection for me. And while I think there's still a lot of the subjectivity in the author's formulation, I do have a relatively new appreciation for "people watching" insights like this now.
- spiderfarmer 1y ago
  It’s actually not that surprising that some people are incredibly good at reading others. Your body is constantly broadcasting information through tiny facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, and even micro-movements. Every second, you’re sending out lots of signals, and some people are just especially tuned in to pick them up. The interpretation isn’t always right, but if you’re good at engaging with people (mostly by listening) you’ll improve that skill pretty quickly.
  - walterbell 1y ago
    TV series Continuum has AR glasses interpreting human micro-signals. Modern video conferencing streams may contain enough information for emotion inference.
  - elric 1y ago
    Indeed. And I'm a bit surprised at how negative some of these comments are. These are just innocent observations, coloured by her experiences and biases. At no point is she claiming that these are absolute truths. We all make such snap observations all the time, but we mostly don't write them down or turn them into paintings.
    - schrectacular 1y ago
      It's a sight full of autists, don't be TOO surprised.
clueless 1y ago
This stuff always reminds me of "The Adventure of the Greek Interpreter" from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes TV series (This is Season 2, Episode 2, originally aired in 1985). In this episode Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are at 221B Baker Street, and Holmes gives a detailed demonstration of his observational and deductive skills by people-watching out the window.
- smcin 1y ago
  Jump to 7m31s : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMm1GWMUoJI?t=7m31s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMm1GWMUoJI?t=7m31s Sherlock Holmes (1985) Season 2 Episode 2 The Greek Interpreter
padolsey 1y ago
Interesting! > People who don't pause exist more in their head than their body. The mind is top-down, rigid, quick, enforcing an established view. The mind is waiting for the other person to be done so they can say what’s rattling around inside. The body is slower, needs more time, and then words bubble up organically, one after another, without planning. People who exist more in their body are generally better at connecting emotionally with others. I don't really understand this one. Maybe there's a bit of a reductive or meaningless conflation here. A body can be fast while the mind is also fast. A body can be slow and pensive, and the mind follows. Being bodily 'in touch' does not equate to emotional sensitivity IME. I am reminded of people whose bodies are dysfunctional or disabled or disregulated. I don't really see a correlation there where they have less emotional sensitivity. Often the opposite. I am then reminded of people who are hyperactive and always want to be moving. One might say they 'exist more their body' but they might often be impatient and inattentive in conversations.. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the author?
- anon84873628 1y ago
  The author uses several metaphorical dichotomies, and I think this one is the most tenuous and unintuitive. I understand the two groups of people, but tying it to where they "generally exist" doesn't make sense to me. The mind/body dichotomy can imply so many different things that this would need a lot more elaboration to clarify. Or maybe I'm not enough of a natural people watcher.
- pizza 1y ago
  I think this is really about the actively made decision to spend longer with each sensation than you 'normally' would - relative to your own individual baseline. Basically whether this is a tool in the person's metacognitive toolkit that they typically use or not. Like 'the feeling of the touch of a thought' on the mind itself, as opposed to a linear pre-simulation of a performance to play out loud. Or the difference between making what you say out loud a cheap, low entropy, lossy encoding of all that you're thinking, versus gathering all the aspects quietly and needing to find a way linearize all that incidental complexity.
- praptak 1y ago
SunlightEdge 1y ago
I do think some people are very good at reading others. And I also think that as we generally don't see ourselves we may not realise how we come across. There is a huge amount of information we send out by how we hold ourselves/talk etc. Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. But I also am aware that I can be wrong. Reading someone who is very quiet for example can be hard and more prone to error. When I talk with someone I often do assess how much turn taking they do, particularly with a stranger. When I'm really engrossed in a conversation or I'm with a good friend I can sometimes turn off this assessment. Final point - the article was a great read. I'd have been really interested in their views on gender differences in communication (there can be differences).
- kortilla 1y ago
  > Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. How are you evaluating that?
  - SunlightEdge 1y ago
    We all read people to an extent. Behavioural signs will show to a degree their emotional state, their status, their attention and interest in you/the conversation. Combine it with how they use language and you get a good idea of how they think and how self aware they are. You can see if people monologue at you or if they are interested in turn taking. You can get a feel for how quickly people can grasp information, how relaxed/restless they are, how internal they are, how nice they are, how insecure they are, how aggressive they are etc. I suppose I also look also for how real a person is. For example in a work setting some people are much more prone to wear masks and fake emotions and some people don't do that. I do try to factor in how much games playing some people do/don't do.
    - asidiali 1y ago
      What if they are intentionally misdirecting you? This is what makes our world special. Not all is as meets the eye. Illusion is powerful.
cuttothechase 1y ago
This feels like "Linda Goodman of Sun Signs" style of storytelling. Arguments like what the author makes can never be confirmed or proven wrong. I feel like this is important work because it has a bit of mass delusional element to it (see the number of likes), very similar to Linda Goodman works, and we can see from the outside what makes these kind of arguments appeal to so many people!?
analog31 1y ago
I have to admit that I get creeped out if I think that someone is trying to "read" me, to such an extent.
- scotty79 1y ago
  Don't worry. It's not about you. You are just one of humans.
- gorbachev 1y ago
  In every interaction with anyone they're reading you. How deeply varies by occasion and whom you're interacting with. For example, a sales person will be reading you with everything they got to find the best angle to sell you stuff. On a first date, you can bet both people involves are trying to read each other every minute of the date, whether intentionally or unconsciously. They even often talk about how they read you afterwards with their friends. A long-time partner probably doesn't try to read you every time you talk.
  - analog31 1y ago
    Indeed, and there are interactions that I avoid, such as dealing with sales people. Why would I even want something that's sold to me via the best angle? I think there's a matter of degree, and if it's excessive, then it's creepy. Maybe the purpose matters. Getting into my head in order to manipulate me is immoral. And I never experienced a "first date." People avoid that too if their culture allows it. At least by the time something emerged that could be called a "date," I already knew her from casual interaction. She knew I was nuts.
  - robocat 1y ago
    > On a first date, you can bet both people involves are trying to read each other every minute of the date I'm sure some people do that, although I would find it disturbing. I haven't been on a date for a while, but for my last one other factors were way more important to me. Some delightful comments on the topic here (I found the article distubingly fascinating - maybe due to my stereotype of US female daters in 30s): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43780269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43780269 > whether intentionally or unconsciously. I think that pondering too much about subconscious drives, is a dismal dangerous road. Not that everyone can correctly identify why they do things (or why others do). > A long-time partner probably doesn't try to read you every time you talk. I would guess some people do it all the time - trying to analyse the reasons behind what their partner says or does. It can be a problem for both e.g. someone who has been made hyper-self-conscious about their every action because they are frightened of the reaction of their overanalytical partner. Personally, I intensely dislike psychlogical analysis (doing it myself, or seeing others do it) because few people like to be academically analysed. I'm rather cynical after dealing with the dangerous opinions of acquaintances (psych students, professional acquaintances, pop-science head-readers, and a few quite frankly mentally-fucked-up people that I know that just "want to help others"). Modern day watchword: trauma (especially childhood). Labels are dangerous. I've even made an internal rule for myself to avoid all professional psychological words and only speak about behaviours. I'm definitely breaking that rule here by trying to write down my opinions (meta: sometimes difficult to avoid analysis). I'm unsure I could summarise what I look for during a date. I can't provide an example of what I prefer instead: too much risk of wordy overanalysis!
dillydogg 1y ago
I find it hard to imagine ever assuming so much about people I've never met. This read as incredibly judgemental to me.
- xelxebar 1y ago
  Funnily enough, this response gives some insight into your personal affect. What kinds of mental states are capable of producing just such a reaction? FWIW, hypothesizing attributes about a person is also just what's required to begin empathetically understanding them. Judging this as judgemental seems like an unpleasant kind of state to be in, at least to my eyes. I certainly don't know you but have just as certainly felt some aspect of you. Hoping you are well, stranger.
  - deleted 1y ago
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  - smallnix 1y ago
    I think we got very different reads here. I understand the comment on the author to be judgemental to be very gentle. Dillydog is a person who affords everyone a rich and deep hidden inner life, so much so, that assuming people are so shallow to be read by a glance makes them angry on their behalf. I think they are in a good place already, emphasizing deeply with others. Of course just my interpretation.
    - xelxebar 1y ago
      Indeed! But haven't we now hypothesized dillydog here to be "a person who affords everyone a rich and deep inner life"? Or more provocatively, haven't we made a character judgement? In the same way that we perform root cause analysis via guesses and validations, I think it's natural, and perhaps unavoidable, that we also make guesses as to a person's personality. Of course, we usually call someone judgemental for making negative assessments, but I think it's important to allow a person whatever possibilities, regardless of moral judgement. My read of the article is that the author ascribes negative traits without judgement and just as easily as positive ones. Heck, as I see it, big part of empathizing with someone is recognizing how all their conditions and traits are natural and operate similarly inside ourselves to one degree or another. None of us chose to be the way we are in the situation we're in. Like, 3+1 dimensions and mostly Euclidean space. Who ordered that? Modus ponens?! Glaciation periods! All these deeply affect our day to day experience, obviously or not and at the behest of no one.
abc-1 1y ago
This is phrenology nonsense and it’s shocking to see people almost nodding along in the comments. This is the same kind of nonsense people spout when they say they’re great interviewers and “just know”, when actual studies show they very much do not.
- walterbell 1y ago
  In this scenario, there's a feedback loop based on whether the subjects of the paintings recommend the painter for weddings.
- lukebitts 1y ago
  I disagree. The difference here is that she is not advocating for acting on her assumptions, like an interviewer does. Maturity is not letting your assumptions cloud your judgement.
- rixed 1y ago
  I understand your concern I think, but still believe you are a bit harsh. In this case the author is not pretending to be always right, and seems to refrain from hard cut judgment based on those perceptions. Also, it's impossible not to form a model of others based on all those visual and behavioral cues. Better trying to make it consciously than to let it happen unconsciously, no? I believe conscious thoughts that one tries to describe and understand have actually less agency on one's judgment.
- dominicq 1y ago
  Agreed. She's not actually stating anything. That is, it's so vague that you cannot pinpoint it, it could be interpreted in any way. You cannot make a prediction out of her "observations".
binary132 1y ago
Maybe it would be better to mind our own character and behaviors more and that of others less.
curtisszmania 1y ago
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mellosouls 1y ago
It's having a bit of pushback for presumption here, but considering this is "just" a list article, it seemed unusually thoughtful in its exposition of the author's perceptions. Genuinely interesting to read.
- thinkingemote 1y ago
  Also noticed this. Maybe we are starting to see well written articles by people in the format of badly written AI Slop for engagement purposes. "Well most articles read by people look like this now, so why dont I?"
danybittel 1y ago
Pretty sure that's illegal in Europe, if she were an AI.
8s2ngy 1y ago
From the movie, The Life of Pi: Animals don't think like we do! People who forget that get themselves killed. When you look into an animal's eyes, you are seeing your own emotions reflected back at you, and nothing else.
- rixed 1y ago
  Are you suggesting that reading other people's minds is as error prone and vain than giving human emotions to animals?
Nimitz14 1y ago
This is very good. I've also noticed I do the polite engagement sometimes and how its roboticsness is obvious to any person with not low EQ. Some people seem to just be naturally happy in almost any settings and its a very valuable trait imo.
ranprieur 1y ago
There's some good stuff here, but some of it is just wrong. Sometimes the person with the loudest laugh is laughing the most authentically.
Fricken 1y ago
Here's my observations from people watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg
Zorass 1y ago
She wrote, “seeing someone is like noticing their internal structure” — that line made me pause for a while. As a kid, I used to think everyone could pick up on those tiny things in people — like the hesitation behind a sentence, or the way someone's eyes seem like they’re trying to escape. Turns out, not everyone “sees” like that. Watching people is more like passive resonance. Sometimes you’re just passing by, but your body has already picked up the entire vibe of that person. No words, just a quiet read.
gumboshoes 1y ago
I suppose what is the main friction in this piece is the constant attribution of things to body or mind, as if they are independent, or as if cannot be both at once. A second friction is that I perceive the author has definitely learned to observe well, and has successfully learned to generalize based on past observations. But the author has difficulty moving from learned to explainable.
neerajsi 1y ago
I once met a gate agent in the Maui airport. She looked at me and my pregnant wife and congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other. Not sure what specifically she saw, but she told us if another couple she observed who were having a girl. She said the man looked like the type who didn't treat women that well, but who was clearly trying to be on his best behavior. Most of the times situations are a complete cypher, but in more unisual cases when observing groups of people who know each other, you can tell how they feel from analyzing the behaviors. This author is clearly in a privileged position in the wedding group. She's in the background with the specific job of looking at everyone and capturing their feelings. They don't try to hide their behavior or respond to her, and the usual western taboo against staring at strangers doesn't apply. This was definitely a good read!
- lightning8113 1y ago
  Not only does she have a privileged position, but good artists are skilled at making their art convey emotions and feelings. Telling a complex story in a static picture requires great attention to detail, and a solid understanding of how humans express emotion. Before you can create art that captures these emotions, you need to be able to observe them. I am not at all surprised that countless hours painting people has helped her develop this skill!
  - darkerside 1y ago
    It likely includes projecting emotions that may not actually exist in order to tell a great story. It doesn't make the read any less interesting though.
- gus_massa 1y ago
  > congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other. Does she have more than a 50% succes rate? In the wost case (null hypotesys?) that she can't tell, it's similar to the gambler falacy. She remember only the succes cases. People post online only the succes cases. Nobody remember the wrong cases. In this case it doesn't matter, but there are evil people that use similar tricks for scams.
aorloff 1y ago
This is a set of astute observations about a group of people in a setting where people are often drunk. As a result it seems to have a skew highly specific to generalizing about people's "internal architectures" when you happen to be seeing them socializing with alcohol at a wedding. I think they call this overfitting the model in machine learning
- darkwater 1y ago
  Most people are not drunk from minute 0 at weddings, and the author went to many weddings, so she clearly had the opportunity to see people interacting also when not drunk.
- winnit 1y ago
  In vino veritas
  - mvdtnz 1y ago
    I've always hated that phrase, because it's objectively, provably bullshit. Almost everyone has some experience of a friend of acquaintance who become someone other than themselves when they got hammered.
    - swiftcoder 1y ago
      It's which self you regard as the "real" self that matters here - alcohol tends to make it hard for people to maintain their habitual masking;. Your otherwise calm friend who starts barfights when he gets his drink on? Probably not as calm as he seems on the surface.
      - danhite 1y ago
        You've made an interesting point, but then, roughly in the ~theology of no-virtue-without-temptation we have this classic ~counterpoint ... Batman Begins - "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."
deleted 1y ago
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kadonoishi 1y ago
I once read a small book for an anthropology class, and got more and more puzzled, and rather incensed. It was covering its subject well but with this bizarre hodgepodge of different anthropological framings, some of them quite anachronistic, some current, jumping around with jarring inconsistency. I got to the end (it was a small book, only maybe 110pp) wondering what in the heck this thing was, and flipped to look at the author at the back. And it was a missionary! Instantly my attitude flipped; I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense. This author has good psychological insights, but her theoretical framings are somewhat mis-specified, inconsistent, sometimes out-of-date by psychological standards, to my eye. But it's very good stuff. artist : psychologist :: missionary : anthropologist
- quietthrow 1y ago
  What’s the name of the book? Can’t just leave that hanging !
  - kadonoishi 1y ago
    Gah, that would be hard to dig out. It was over 30 years ago. edit: Ok that wasn't too hard, it was in a box. It's "Fields on the Hoof: Nexus of Tibetan Nomadic Pastoralism" by Robert B. Ekvall, 1968, 1983. Thanks for making me go find that, the notebook for the class is interesting to look at again.
- ragazzina 1y ago
  >I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense. The author graduated in Cultural Anthropology some 30 years before writing the book.
- raincom 1y ago
  "Missiology is the academic study of the Christian mission history and methodology". Earlier, Missiology used to be called as "Practical Anthropology". Even today, the best materials for learning phonetics and linguistics practically come from Christians, because of their drive to proselytize everyone on this earth, with various languages, etc. "Summer Institute of Linguistics" is one such.
taylorius 1y ago
So many pronouncements on people's inner lives. The temptation to caricature the wedding guests in her paintings must be formidable.
jk431 1y ago
Nice observations and thanks for sharing. Do you mind sharing how you built this skill? Any books/podcasts that you followed to learn?
thom 1y ago
Your outie has a popular therapy-speak newsletter.
nanacnote 1y ago
I think words got in the way of what OP wanted to say.
PeterStuer 1y ago
The author draws overall conclusions based on observations at wedding parties. I've know very many (techies) that are extremely introvert and yes, bored, in such an environment, yet when you would observe them at evening drinks at a tech conference, they would be engaged, open, interested, welcoming and kind. I fear the author overextrapolates from a specific context to people across contexts.
- DeathRay2K 1y ago
  Isn’t this simply recognizing that people are not fixed points? The same person who is open and happy at one time could certainly be bored at another. It does not seem to me that the author claims otherwise.
James_K 1y ago
I feel that those incensed by this article would have a strong distaste for fortune tellers. I counter that vague wisdoms and unsubstantiated claims often give us a chance to reflect on our lives.
deleted 1y ago
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tryauuum 1y ago
unskippable cookie banner covers 50 percent of the screen
Simon_O_Rourke 1y ago
This post has all the hallmarks of some therapist's suggestion to focus on the external. Bit too much projection going on here, with a very definite "correctness" to the characterizations.
wvlia5 1y ago
Could all these statements be expressed as math equations? Make a model of mind, behaviour and society, such that all of these could be deduced as consequences of some fundamental theorem.
mpweiher 1y ago
I used to be very impressed by this sort of stuff, because it baffled me. It certainly sounds uber-impressive! However, I have seen how error-prone it is, and also read and understood a little more about the mechanisms. For one, I have had people tell me stuff they "read" in me. It was valuable as an insight as to what vibes I might be sending out, unbeknownst to me. But it tended to be laughably wrong about me. Now you might think that this is just me being defensive..."you can't read me". But people do get it wrong, and a girlfriend once confessed to me, somewhat exasperated: "I can't read you". To which I said: "You should try listening to me instead". Communication ≫ Reading I have also gotten quite a bit better at it myself, and it can be intoxicating. Because when it works it is almost magical. But while it can be stunningly precise, it just isn't very accurate. So it's a useful tool that can yield information, but don't get high on your own supply. Treat it as a very sensitive but also very noisy channel of information.
- ZeroTalent 1y ago
  Your comment is on point, but also, while I feel this article is kind of interesting, I fail to see it is relevant to Hacker News. I feel we are recently, often, going quite far off-topic.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    Hmm... Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - shermantanktop 1y ago
      This article would be appealing to someone who enjoys having basic human interactions explained to them in narrative form. I hope HN is broader than that.
- pton_xd 1y ago
wvlia5 1y ago
I used to not have this skill at all. People behaviour was just a random process with unexplainable outliers. Then I vaped weed for the first time at 34, and I got this skill. It makes me uncomfortable to observe how people compute their behaviours so erratically, specially when they take my own behaviours as inputs for computing theirs. I wish people would act according to a standarized protocol (etiquette).
pricedown 1y ago
Is it a little strange that the observations end with favoritism towards a kind? Or not at all? Can't people just be people, and not kinds of people?
- jallbrit 1y ago
  Your comment seems to suggest that having a preference towards certain personality types is inherently wrong.
Animats 1y ago
This sort of thing is called "cold reading".[1] It's well understood, and it's taught to cops and salespeople. First-line people in the hospitality industry (restaurant greeters, hotel desk clerks) tend to have skills in that area. There's "Manwatching" (1979) by Desmond Morris, a more serious study of this.[2] Good pictures and drawings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading [2] https://archive.org/details/manwatchingfield0000morr/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/manwatchingfield0000morr/page/n5...
- renewiltord 1y ago
  Lie detectors are also well-understood and taught to cops. K-9 probably cause manufacturer units are well-understood and also taught to cops. In fact, the list of things that are totally bogus and well-understood and taught to cops since the era of Bill Clinton is so long that perhaps it should be well-understood and taught to cops too.
azan_ 1y ago
This article perfectly mirrors my experience with people that claim to be good at reading people - just assume some things about person you are "reading" and then instantly believe it. It's really easy to be good at it when you don't need any grounding in reality.
- robocat 1y ago
  Two sets of people: A) The overconfident that self-describe as intuitive at reading people B) people skilled at reading people You have seen a lot of A and you are arguing that means that B doesn't exist. I think that both exist. For the B's it is a bit of a superpower, and I suspect they don't generally show off their superpower unless you have a very close relationship with them. I am skilled enough to recognize the A's, but the B's are harder to recognize. To recognize the A's you have to be better at reading others than the A's are. To recognize the B's you need to be as skilled as them or better (which I believe is difficult, and uncommon). When on the receiving end of A's or B's judgements you need to be able to read yourself better than they can plus you need to have zero self-denial: to judge if their reading is correct. Many people are just not that good at self-awareness (we often act according to childish drives).
ungreased0675 1y ago
When I’m people watching, I’ll extrapolate tiny details into entire life stories of strangers. It’s a lot of fun to do with a date, shared storytelling is a cool bonding experience. But never once have I thought those stories were anything but fiction.
CommenterPerson 1y ago
Ever heard of "Body language"? It's worth looking up "Nonverbal Communication" in Wikipedia. It's estimated 2/3rds of all communication is nonverbal. A therapist I know also mentioned something like this. Many of the HN readers are developers. We want everything to be deterministic. If A, then B. 1+1=2. And so on. Hence the angst in some comments. The author may not be 100% correct everywhere. The examples seemed to get a little more judgmental towards the end of the list. But these are great soft skills to have, people! Next time you have a crazy user or boss, observe their body language. It might help.

462 points by jger15 1y ago

polishdude20 1y ago

I think a lot of what the author sees in people is more a reflection of her own self

the_af 1y ago
Yes, but this is often true of how we see others. We are not robots, we pour ourselves in others. Still, the article is insightful and a fun read.
rixed 1y ago
It would still, like the broken clock, be correct sometimes. Our ability to understand others comes from, and is limited by, the fact that our feelings and behaviors are a mix from a shared palette.

boomskats 1y ago

Beautiful writing and emotional vocabulary. Internal architecture. Feels almost psychedelic.

mellosouls 1y ago
I felt the same, genuinely unusual especially in this listicle space.
turtlebro 1y ago
It reminds me of how psychedelics can sometimes put you in a hyper observant, heightened state of awareness. Maybe some here have experienced this, it can be very mind blowing. People are open books and communicate much much more then we think we are. Motions, gestures, tiny subtle reactions, the way someone walks, it can give you a direct glance into someones soul. Some people are probably naturally very skilled at being observant, the author being a painter only make sense.

Bjartr 1y ago

This seems like a set of well balanced, if not comprehensive, principles behind how people interact. Even if it's not complete, I think it can still be helpful. There's a lot here that resonates with me, but only in hindsight. I struggle with understanding people emotionally in the moment a lot of the time it'd benefit me if I could internalize this list. As they say, all models are wrong, some are useful.

thinkingemote 1y ago
It helped me to do only try to understand myself in the moment or conversation than the other. It is not easy and most of us do not know ourselves. It's actually kind of hard to do. You try to pay attention to the words you are saying, the thoughts you are thinking, the emotions, the feelings, the body posture of yourself. But it's got to be easier than trying to understand another. Doing this eventually lead to a better perception of others. But by then I didn't need to try to do it. I'm still no where near as perceptive as the author of this submission but I've improved. However its a bit like a muscle and needs to be exercised or made into a discipline or habit and I have atrophied over time. I do still have my memories of this though. One thing I noticed by observing others is that most people do not understand themselves. And I include myself in this group almost all the time too. I should get back into this, thank you for your comment.

delichon 1y ago

most people love what loves them back That is exploitable. I tried it and it works. When I was 18 I got a job in a telemarketing boiler room. Two dozen people sitting at long tables with phones and scripts, asking for donations for various causes. Yes I should probably burn in hell for it, but I was a dumb kid. The first day really sucked, but they let me try again and I came with a plan. Before every call imagine my feeling of love for that person. As I read the script, think "I love you grandma". Something magical happened. I got like 3 donations out of 5 calls for the rest of the day. The boss was joyful, I was the flavor of the day. He presented me with an alarmingly large bonus when I left. I was nauseated and never went back. That was my last job in sales.

walterbell 1y ago
Observer effect also works for code created by humans.
neilv 1y ago
Do you think you might've been able to find a sincere, non-manipulative way of doing it? For example, if you could quickly intuit whether and how much the person naturally would want and be able to donate, and you connect with them on the basis of that, and they might or might not pick up on that themselves, but no mind tricks of either of you? One appealing thing about this is that it's using some of the strongest potential for manipulation, to try to avoid manipulating.
- scotty79 1y ago
  Probably not. You are taking their money. They become poorer because of your behavior. That doesn't fit with love, no matter how you try to contort yourself.
  - neilv 1y ago
    It doesn't have to be love. If it's for a good cause, the person would like to donate, and can afford some amount, then there's a role for cooperation in facilitating that. As a facilitator, you can look at it like: here's a person who wants to donate, I approve of that, and I can help with that. If you like the person for wanting to do that, and that comes across, and that helps them get past their aversion to sales in general, all the better. Where it can go wrong is if you play manipulation games on them and/or yourself. (Telemarketing modality of phoning and disturbing is a different problem, though. That's a reason not to do it at all, at least not that way. But manipulation can be averted.)

walterbell 1y ago

Another observation by the author: my life became a lot more fun once i realized work can literally be anything, if i know how to sell it (this month i'm paying rent by writing mothers day poems for tech employees to mail their mom)

sonofhans 1y ago
Another observation? That seems rather the point of placing this article here on this date, yes?
- walterbell 1y ago
  To sell last-minute custom poems to HN? Impressive cynicism. Submarine poetry competition might be fun, but the quote is not even from the article. I saw it by randomly clicking on substack, then couldn't even find it again to link here, due to substack's inscrutable layout. Now that you've brought up the topic, how should one sell poems? Maybe start earlier with content marketing and link the product somewhere in the content? Apparently this blog has only been submitted twice to HN, today and three days ago, with zero mention of poetry. But it does mention weddings.
  - smcin 1y ago
    > Submarine poetry competition might be fun... There was an old boomer named Maude, who sold composition by fraud, She got her kicks from spurious clicks but her mores were seriously flawed.
    - danhite 1y ago
      ah, limericks amore, so reflecting more mores ... Once a young techie in YC was asked: Start-ups all why seed? "To save the World of course --shopping cart before horse-- for growth at scale: launch high speed!"
  - sonofhans 1y ago
    Most poets who make any money sell their work by publishing it as song lyrics, I think. I don’t think we have many rock star poets left, and I’d be surprised if many at all made a living at it. I’ve most often bought poems from people sitting on the sidewalk writing them out, FWIW :)

lapcat 1y ago

The author is projecting a lot into the hearts and minds of strangers, based on limited or indeed no interaction with them. These are not scientific observations in any sense. What does the author do to confirm or refute her psychological theories about others? She's very good at telling stories, but these stories feel like fiction, not hard fact.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
1659447091 1y ago
Sure, the words she uses to represent her observations is a reflection of her self; in that she describes it in a more creatively descriptive way than, say, a scientist in a laboratory. It's observation, not research; but it's also not judgment which is where I find projection lives. Under that I see someone whose job it is to be keenly observant and to notice these things, otherwise she wouldn't be a very good wedding painter. It probably helps that she seems to be passionate about observing people. Why have someone paint your wedding if the painter isn't able to understand and observe the nuances of human interactions going on?
- epgui 1y ago
  In the extreme, a perception can be very interesting even if it’s delusional.
  - walterbell 1y ago
    Delusional Wedding Paintings, coming soon from your neighborhood LLM!
- lapcat 1y ago
  > it's also not judgment I disagree. The observations start to become extremely judgmental at around #8 and following. > Why have someone paint your wedding if the painter isn't able to understand and observe the nuances of human interactions going on? Do you think the wedding painter is paid to reproduce the naked reality of the situation, if that happens to be contrary to what the couple wants to see and preserve on canvas forever?

disambiguation 1y ago

I would describe myself as the opposite of OP (very bad at reading people) so it was quite a shock the first time I met someone like this. Not only for the revelation that these type of people exist, but the experience of another person reading my "internal architecture" - and subsequently judging it - it opened a new avenue of self reflection for me. And while I think there's still a lot of the subjectivity in the author's formulation, I do have a relatively new appreciation for "people watching" insights like this now.

spiderfarmer 1y ago
It’s actually not that surprising that some people are incredibly good at reading others. Your body is constantly broadcasting information through tiny facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, and even micro-movements. Every second, you’re sending out lots of signals, and some people are just especially tuned in to pick them up. The interpretation isn’t always right, but if you’re good at engaging with people (mostly by listening) you’ll improve that skill pretty quickly.
- walterbell 1y ago
  TV series Continuum has AR glasses interpreting human micro-signals. Modern video conferencing streams may contain enough information for emotion inference.
- elric 1y ago
  Indeed. And I'm a bit surprised at how negative some of these comments are. These are just innocent observations, coloured by her experiences and biases. At no point is she claiming that these are absolute truths. We all make such snap observations all the time, but we mostly don't write them down or turn them into paintings.
  - schrectacular 1y ago
    It's a sight full of autists, don't be TOO surprised.

clueless 1y ago

This stuff always reminds me of "The Adventure of the Greek Interpreter" from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes TV series (This is Season 2, Episode 2, originally aired in 1985). In this episode Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are at 221B Baker Street, and Holmes gives a detailed demonstration of his observational and deductive skills by people-watching out the window.

smcin 1y ago
Jump to 7m31s : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMm1GWMUoJI?t=7m31s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMm1GWMUoJI?t=7m31s Sherlock Holmes (1985) Season 2 Episode 2 The Greek Interpreter

padolsey 1y ago

Interesting! > People who don't pause exist more in their head than their body. The mind is top-down, rigid, quick, enforcing an established view. The mind is waiting for the other person to be done so they can say what’s rattling around inside. The body is slower, needs more time, and then words bubble up organically, one after another, without planning. People who exist more in their body are generally better at connecting emotionally with others. I don't really understand this one. Maybe there's a bit of a reductive or meaningless conflation here. A body can be fast while the mind is also fast. A body can be slow and pensive, and the mind follows. Being bodily 'in touch' does not equate to emotional sensitivity IME. I am reminded of people whose bodies are dysfunctional or disabled or disregulated. I don't really see a correlation there where they have less emotional sensitivity. Often the opposite. I am then reminded of people who are hyperactive and always want to be moving. One might say they 'exist more their body' but they might often be impatient and inattentive in conversations.. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the author?

anon84873628 1y ago
The author uses several metaphorical dichotomies, and I think this one is the most tenuous and unintuitive. I understand the two groups of people, but tying it to where they "generally exist" doesn't make sense to me. The mind/body dichotomy can imply so many different things that this would need a lot more elaboration to clarify. Or maybe I'm not enough of a natural people watcher.
pizza 1y ago
I think this is really about the actively made decision to spend longer with each sensation than you 'normally' would - relative to your own individual baseline. Basically whether this is a tool in the person's metacognitive toolkit that they typically use or not. Like 'the feeling of the touch of a thought' on the mind itself, as opposed to a linear pre-simulation of a performance to play out loud. Or the difference between making what you say out loud a cheap, low entropy, lossy encoding of all that you're thinking, versus gathering all the aspects quietly and needing to find a way linearize all that incidental complexity.
praptak 1y ago

SunlightEdge 1y ago

I do think some people are very good at reading others. And I also think that as we generally don't see ourselves we may not realise how we come across. There is a huge amount of information we send out by how we hold ourselves/talk etc. Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. But I also am aware that I can be wrong. Reading someone who is very quiet for example can be hard and more prone to error. When I talk with someone I often do assess how much turn taking they do, particularly with a stranger. When I'm really engrossed in a conversation or I'm with a good friend I can sometimes turn off this assessment. Final point - the article was a great read. I'd have been really interested in their views on gender differences in communication (there can be differences).

kortilla 1y ago
> Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. How are you evaluating that?
- SunlightEdge 1y ago
  We all read people to an extent. Behavioural signs will show to a degree their emotional state, their status, their attention and interest in you/the conversation. Combine it with how they use language and you get a good idea of how they think and how self aware they are. You can see if people monologue at you or if they are interested in turn taking. You can get a feel for how quickly people can grasp information, how relaxed/restless they are, how internal they are, how nice they are, how insecure they are, how aggressive they are etc. I suppose I also look also for how real a person is. For example in a work setting some people are much more prone to wear masks and fake emotions and some people don't do that. I do try to factor in how much games playing some people do/don't do.
  - asidiali 1y ago
    What if they are intentionally misdirecting you? This is what makes our world special. Not all is as meets the eye. Illusion is powerful.

cuttothechase 1y ago

This feels like "Linda Goodman of Sun Signs" style of storytelling. Arguments like what the author makes can never be confirmed or proven wrong. I feel like this is important work because it has a bit of mass delusional element to it (see the number of likes), very similar to Linda Goodman works, and we can see from the outside what makes these kind of arguments appeal to so many people!?

analog31 1y ago

I have to admit that I get creeped out if I think that someone is trying to "read" me, to such an extent.

scotty79 1y ago
Don't worry. It's not about you. You are just one of humans.
gorbachev 1y ago
In every interaction with anyone they're reading you. How deeply varies by occasion and whom you're interacting with. For example, a sales person will be reading you with everything they got to find the best angle to sell you stuff. On a first date, you can bet both people involves are trying to read each other every minute of the date, whether intentionally or unconsciously. They even often talk about how they read you afterwards with their friends. A long-time partner probably doesn't try to read you every time you talk.
- analog31 1y ago
  Indeed, and there are interactions that I avoid, such as dealing with sales people. Why would I even want something that's sold to me via the best angle? I think there's a matter of degree, and if it's excessive, then it's creepy. Maybe the purpose matters. Getting into my head in order to manipulate me is immoral. And I never experienced a "first date." People avoid that too if their culture allows it. At least by the time something emerged that could be called a "date," I already knew her from casual interaction. She knew I was nuts.
- robocat 1y ago
  > On a first date, you can bet both people involves are trying to read each other every minute of the date I'm sure some people do that, although I would find it disturbing. I haven't been on a date for a while, but for my last one other factors were way more important to me. Some delightful comments on the topic here (I found the article distubingly fascinating - maybe due to my stereotype of US female daters in 30s): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43780269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43780269 > whether intentionally or unconsciously. I think that pondering too much about subconscious drives, is a dismal dangerous road. Not that everyone can correctly identify why they do things (or why others do). > A long-time partner probably doesn't try to read you every time you talk. I would guess some people do it all the time - trying to analyse the reasons behind what their partner says or does. It can be a problem for both e.g. someone who has been made hyper-self-conscious about their every action because they are frightened of the reaction of their overanalytical partner. Personally, I intensely dislike psychlogical analysis (doing it myself, or seeing others do it) because few people like to be academically analysed. I'm rather cynical after dealing with the dangerous opinions of acquaintances (psych students, professional acquaintances, pop-science head-readers, and a few quite frankly mentally-fucked-up people that I know that just "want to help others"). Modern day watchword: trauma (especially childhood). Labels are dangerous. I've even made an internal rule for myself to avoid all professional psychological words and only speak about behaviours. I'm definitely breaking that rule here by trying to write down my opinions (meta: sometimes difficult to avoid analysis). I'm unsure I could summarise what I look for during a date. I can't provide an example of what I prefer instead: too much risk of wordy overanalysis!

dillydogg 1y ago

I find it hard to imagine ever assuming so much about people I've never met. This read as incredibly judgemental to me.

xelxebar 1y ago
Funnily enough, this response gives some insight into your personal affect. What kinds of mental states are capable of producing just such a reaction? FWIW, hypothesizing attributes about a person is also just what's required to begin empathetically understanding them. Judging this as judgemental seems like an unpleasant kind of state to be in, at least to my eyes. I certainly don't know you but have just as certainly felt some aspect of you. Hoping you are well, stranger.
- deleted 1y ago
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- smallnix 1y ago
  I think we got very different reads here. I understand the comment on the author to be judgemental to be very gentle. Dillydog is a person who affords everyone a rich and deep hidden inner life, so much so, that assuming people are so shallow to be read by a glance makes them angry on their behalf. I think they are in a good place already, emphasizing deeply with others. Of course just my interpretation.
  - xelxebar 1y ago
    Indeed! But haven't we now hypothesized dillydog here to be "a person who affords everyone a rich and deep inner life"? Or more provocatively, haven't we made a character judgement? In the same way that we perform root cause analysis via guesses and validations, I think it's natural, and perhaps unavoidable, that we also make guesses as to a person's personality. Of course, we usually call someone judgemental for making negative assessments, but I think it's important to allow a person whatever possibilities, regardless of moral judgement. My read of the article is that the author ascribes negative traits without judgement and just as easily as positive ones. Heck, as I see it, big part of empathizing with someone is recognizing how all their conditions and traits are natural and operate similarly inside ourselves to one degree or another. None of us chose to be the way we are in the situation we're in. Like, 3+1 dimensions and mostly Euclidean space. Who ordered that? Modus ponens?! Glaciation periods! All these deeply affect our day to day experience, obviously or not and at the behest of no one.

abc-1 1y ago

This is phrenology nonsense and it’s shocking to see people almost nodding along in the comments. This is the same kind of nonsense people spout when they say they’re great interviewers and “just know”, when actual studies show they very much do not.

walterbell 1y ago
In this scenario, there's a feedback loop based on whether the subjects of the paintings recommend the painter for weddings.
lukebitts 1y ago
I disagree. The difference here is that she is not advocating for acting on her assumptions, like an interviewer does. Maturity is not letting your assumptions cloud your judgement.
rixed 1y ago
I understand your concern I think, but still believe you are a bit harsh. In this case the author is not pretending to be always right, and seems to refrain from hard cut judgment based on those perceptions. Also, it's impossible not to form a model of others based on all those visual and behavioral cues. Better trying to make it consciously than to let it happen unconsciously, no? I believe conscious thoughts that one tries to describe and understand have actually less agency on one's judgment.
dominicq 1y ago
Agreed. She's not actually stating anything. That is, it's so vague that you cannot pinpoint it, it could be interpreted in any way. You cannot make a prediction out of her "observations".

binary132 1y ago

Maybe it would be better to mind our own character and behaviors more and that of others less.

curtisszmania 1y ago

[dead]

mellosouls 1y ago

It's having a bit of pushback for presumption here, but considering this is "just" a list article, it seemed unusually thoughtful in its exposition of the author's perceptions. Genuinely interesting to read.

thinkingemote 1y ago
Also noticed this. Maybe we are starting to see well written articles by people in the format of badly written AI Slop for engagement purposes. "Well most articles read by people look like this now, so why dont I?"

danybittel 1y ago

Pretty sure that's illegal in Europe, if she were an AI.

8s2ngy 1y ago

From the movie, The Life of Pi: Animals don't think like we do! People who forget that get themselves killed. When you look into an animal's eyes, you are seeing your own emotions reflected back at you, and nothing else.

rixed 1y ago
Are you suggesting that reading other people's minds is as error prone and vain than giving human emotions to animals?

Nimitz14 1y ago

This is very good. I've also noticed I do the polite engagement sometimes and how its roboticsness is obvious to any person with not low EQ. Some people seem to just be naturally happy in almost any settings and its a very valuable trait imo.

ranprieur 1y ago

There's some good stuff here, but some of it is just wrong. Sometimes the person with the loudest laugh is laughing the most authentically.

Fricken 1y ago

Here's my observations from people watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg

Zorass 1y ago

She wrote, “seeing someone is like noticing their internal structure” — that line made me pause for a while. As a kid, I used to think everyone could pick up on those tiny things in people — like the hesitation behind a sentence, or the way someone's eyes seem like they’re trying to escape. Turns out, not everyone “sees” like that. Watching people is more like passive resonance. Sometimes you’re just passing by, but your body has already picked up the entire vibe of that person. No words, just a quiet read.

gumboshoes 1y ago

I suppose what is the main friction in this piece is the constant attribution of things to body or mind, as if they are independent, or as if cannot be both at once. A second friction is that I perceive the author has definitely learned to observe well, and has successfully learned to generalize based on past observations. But the author has difficulty moving from learned to explainable.

neerajsi 1y ago

I once met a gate agent in the Maui airport. She looked at me and my pregnant wife and congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other. Not sure what specifically she saw, but she told us if another couple she observed who were having a girl. She said the man looked like the type who didn't treat women that well, but who was clearly trying to be on his best behavior. Most of the times situations are a complete cypher, but in more unisual cases when observing groups of people who know each other, you can tell how they feel from analyzing the behaviors. This author is clearly in a privileged position in the wedding group. She's in the background with the specific job of looking at everyone and capturing their feelings. They don't try to hide their behavior or respond to her, and the usual western taboo against staring at strangers doesn't apply. This was definitely a good read!

lightning8113 1y ago
Not only does she have a privileged position, but good artists are skilled at making their art convey emotions and feelings. Telling a complex story in a static picture requires great attention to detail, and a solid understanding of how humans express emotion. Before you can create art that captures these emotions, you need to be able to observe them. I am not at all surprised that countless hours painting people has helped her develop this skill!
- darkerside 1y ago
  It likely includes projecting emotions that may not actually exist in order to tell a great story. It doesn't make the read any less interesting though.
gus_massa 1y ago
> congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other. Does she have more than a 50% succes rate? In the wost case (null hypotesys?) that she can't tell, it's similar to the gambler falacy. She remember only the succes cases. People post online only the succes cases. Nobody remember the wrong cases. In this case it doesn't matter, but there are evil people that use similar tricks for scams.

aorloff 1y ago

This is a set of astute observations about a group of people in a setting where people are often drunk. As a result it seems to have a skew highly specific to generalizing about people's "internal architectures" when you happen to be seeing them socializing with alcohol at a wedding. I think they call this overfitting the model in machine learning

darkwater 1y ago
Most people are not drunk from minute 0 at weddings, and the author went to many weddings, so she clearly had the opportunity to see people interacting also when not drunk.
winnit 1y ago
In vino veritas
- mvdtnz 1y ago
  I've always hated that phrase, because it's objectively, provably bullshit. Almost everyone has some experience of a friend of acquaintance who become someone other than themselves when they got hammered.
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    It's which self you regard as the "real" self that matters here - alcohol tends to make it hard for people to maintain their habitual masking;. Your otherwise calm friend who starts barfights when he gets his drink on? Probably not as calm as he seems on the surface.
    - danhite 1y ago
      You've made an interesting point, but then, roughly in the ~theology of no-virtue-without-temptation we have this classic ~counterpoint ... Batman Begins - "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

kadonoishi 1y ago

I once read a small book for an anthropology class, and got more and more puzzled, and rather incensed. It was covering its subject well but with this bizarre hodgepodge of different anthropological framings, some of them quite anachronistic, some current, jumping around with jarring inconsistency. I got to the end (it was a small book, only maybe 110pp) wondering what in the heck this thing was, and flipped to look at the author at the back. And it was a missionary! Instantly my attitude flipped; I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense. This author has good psychological insights, but her theoretical framings are somewhat mis-specified, inconsistent, sometimes out-of-date by psychological standards, to my eye. But it's very good stuff. artist : psychologist :: missionary : anthropologist

quietthrow 1y ago
What’s the name of the book? Can’t just leave that hanging !
- kadonoishi 1y ago
  Gah, that would be hard to dig out. It was over 30 years ago. edit: Ok that wasn't too hard, it was in a box. It's "Fields on the Hoof: Nexus of Tibetan Nomadic Pastoralism" by Robert B. Ekvall, 1968, 1983. Thanks for making me go find that, the notebook for the class is interesting to look at again.
ragazzina 1y ago
>I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense. The author graduated in Cultural Anthropology some 30 years before writing the book.
raincom 1y ago
"Missiology is the academic study of the Christian mission history and methodology". Earlier, Missiology used to be called as "Practical Anthropology". Even today, the best materials for learning phonetics and linguistics practically come from Christians, because of their drive to proselytize everyone on this earth, with various languages, etc. "Summer Institute of Linguistics" is one such.

taylorius 1y ago

So many pronouncements on people's inner lives. The temptation to caricature the wedding guests in her paintings must be formidable.

jk431 1y ago

Nice observations and thanks for sharing. Do you mind sharing how you built this skill? Any books/podcasts that you followed to learn?

thom 1y ago

Your outie has a popular therapy-speak newsletter.

nanacnote 1y ago

I think words got in the way of what OP wanted to say.

PeterStuer 1y ago

The author draws overall conclusions based on observations at wedding parties. I've know very many (techies) that are extremely introvert and yes, bored, in such an environment, yet when you would observe them at evening drinks at a tech conference, they would be engaged, open, interested, welcoming and kind. I fear the author overextrapolates from a specific context to people across contexts.

DeathRay2K 1y ago
Isn’t this simply recognizing that people are not fixed points? The same person who is open and happy at one time could certainly be bored at another. It does not seem to me that the author claims otherwise.

James_K 1y ago

I feel that those incensed by this article would have a strong distaste for fortune tellers. I counter that vague wisdoms and unsubstantiated claims often give us a chance to reflect on our lives.

deleted 1y ago

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tryauuum 1y ago

unskippable cookie banner covers 50 percent of the screen

Simon_O_Rourke 1y ago

This post has all the hallmarks of some therapist's suggestion to focus on the external. Bit too much projection going on here, with a very definite "correctness" to the characterizations.

wvlia5 1y ago

Could all these statements be expressed as math equations? Make a model of mind, behaviour and society, such that all of these could be deduced as consequences of some fundamental theorem.

mpweiher 1y ago

I used to be very impressed by this sort of stuff, because it baffled me. It certainly sounds uber-impressive! However, I have seen how error-prone it is, and also read and understood a little more about the mechanisms. For one, I have had people tell me stuff they "read" in me. It was valuable as an insight as to what vibes I might be sending out, unbeknownst to me. But it tended to be laughably wrong about me. Now you might think that this is just me being defensive..."you can't read me". But people do get it wrong, and a girlfriend once confessed to me, somewhat exasperated: "I can't read you". To which I said: "You should try listening to me instead". Communication ≫ Reading I have also gotten quite a bit better at it myself, and it can be intoxicating. Because when it works it is almost magical. But while it can be stunningly precise, it just isn't very accurate. So it's a useful tool that can yield information, but don't get high on your own supply. Treat it as a very sensitive but also very noisy channel of information.

ZeroTalent 1y ago
Your comment is on point, but also, while I feel this article is kind of interesting, I fail to see it is relevant to Hacker News. I feel we are recently, often, going quite far off-topic.
- mpweiher 1y ago
  Hmm... Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - shermantanktop 1y ago
    This article would be appealing to someone who enjoys having basic human interactions explained to them in narrative form. I hope HN is broader than that.
pton_xd 1y ago

wvlia5 1y ago

I used to not have this skill at all. People behaviour was just a random process with unexplainable outliers. Then I vaped weed for the first time at 34, and I got this skill. It makes me uncomfortable to observe how people compute their behaviours so erratically, specially when they take my own behaviours as inputs for computing theirs. I wish people would act according to a standarized protocol (etiquette).

pricedown 1y ago

Is it a little strange that the observations end with favoritism towards a kind? Or not at all? Can't people just be people, and not kinds of people?

jallbrit 1y ago
Your comment seems to suggest that having a preference towards certain personality types is inherently wrong.

Animats 1y ago

This sort of thing is called "cold reading".[1] It's well understood, and it's taught to cops and salespeople. First-line people in the hospitality industry (restaurant greeters, hotel desk clerks) tend to have skills in that area. There's "Manwatching" (1979) by Desmond Morris, a more serious study of this.[2] Good pictures and drawings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading [2] https://archive.org/details/manwatchingfield0000morr/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/manwatchingfield0000morr/page/n5...

renewiltord 1y ago
Lie detectors are also well-understood and taught to cops. K-9 probably cause manufacturer units are well-understood and also taught to cops. In fact, the list of things that are totally bogus and well-understood and taught to cops since the era of Bill Clinton is so long that perhaps it should be well-understood and taught to cops too.

azan_ 1y ago

This article perfectly mirrors my experience with people that claim to be good at reading people - just assume some things about person you are "reading" and then instantly believe it. It's really easy to be good at it when you don't need any grounding in reality.

robocat 1y ago
Two sets of people: A) The overconfident that self-describe as intuitive at reading people B) people skilled at reading people You have seen a lot of A and you are arguing that means that B doesn't exist. I think that both exist. For the B's it is a bit of a superpower, and I suspect they don't generally show off their superpower unless you have a very close relationship with them. I am skilled enough to recognize the A's, but the B's are harder to recognize. To recognize the A's you have to be better at reading others than the A's are. To recognize the B's you need to be as skilled as them or better (which I believe is difficult, and uncommon). When on the receiving end of A's or B's judgements you need to be able to read yourself better than they can plus you need to have zero self-denial: to judge if their reading is correct. Many people are just not that good at self-awareness (we often act according to childish drives).

ungreased0675 1y ago

When I’m people watching, I’ll extrapolate tiny details into entire life stories of strangers. It’s a lot of fun to do with a date, shared storytelling is a cool bonding experience. But never once have I thought those stories were anything but fiction.

CommenterPerson 1y ago

Ever heard of "Body language"? It's worth looking up "Nonverbal Communication" in Wikipedia. It's estimated 2/3rds of all communication is nonverbal. A therapist I know also mentioned something like this. Many of the HN readers are developers. We want everything to be deterministic. If A, then B. 1+1=2. And so on. Hence the angst in some comments. The author may not be 100% correct everywhere. The examples seemed to get a little more judgmental towards the end of the list. But these are great soft skills to have, people! Next time you have a crazy user or boss, observe their body language. It might help.