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> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the

• eric_cc 1y ago
  Using llm’s for papers does not mean your brain is atrophying though. There are lots of ways to challenge the mind even if you use llm’s to write some papers.
  • palata 1y ago
    > Using llm’s for papers does not mean your brain is atrophying though. It means that you are losing your time. If you are a university student and use LLMs for your classes while "challenging your mind" for stuff outside of class, maybe you should just not be studying there in the first place.
    • throwing_away 1y ago
      If you want the certificate, it must be issued by the certificate authority. If you want to make your own certificates, good luck getting them on the trusted list.
      • jay_kyburz 1y ago
        The cert authorities are mostly untrustworthy anyhow. Companies need to bring folks in on a probation period and actually test the skills are there.
    • aftbit 1y ago
      School isn't a place for smart people, Morty.
    • eric_cc 1y ago
      Bingo! I agree with where you’re going with this line of thinking.
    • strken 1y ago
      Yes, I too enjoy that universities never send students to pointless filler courses. I really enjoyed writing long essays about ethics in software engineering for people who'd barely even read them. I especially benefited from being told that "tell your boss, tell HR, then make a police report and quit if that didn't fix it" is not an appropriate response to being asked to break the law at work. While we're talking about things we're grateful for, I am so glad that we've structured the education and employment systems such that not having a degree puts you at significant risk of unemployment, prevents you from ever immigrating anywhere for the first decade of your working life, and generally marks you as a failure.
      • simonask 1y ago
        Do you... not understand that the point of giving you a class on ethics in software development wasn't so you would produce an essay?
        • strken 1y ago
          Do you...not understand that the class on ethics in software development was completely pointless because it was neutered by a university administration that was too afraid to commit to any real ethical position? I thought I was pretty clear when I told you I got marked down for taking the stance that one should not commit crimes when asked to by one's boss. The problem isn't that I was asked to produce an essay as part of the process of teaching me about ethics. The problem is that the entire class was pointless busywork taught by lecturers who weren't particularly ethical and who failed to teach any of us about ethics. ChatGPT could have done the entire thing and the class would still have failed to leave me with anything other than lingering resentment.
      • palata 1y ago
        > I am so glad that we've structured the education and employment systems such that not having a degree puts you at significant risk of unemployment It's not like this in every country, though.
  • pessimizer 1y ago
    If you used a wheelchair every day, your legs would atrophy. Regardless of the existence of other ways to exercise your legs which you also will not do, because you're a person with working legs who chooses to use a wheelchair.
    • eric_cc 1y ago
      You’re describing an extreme so let me counter with a different “what if” extreme: If , every day, you use a wheel chair for five minutes and run for several hours followed by 200 squats then your legs will not atrophy. My point is that writing papers is only one way to work your mind and using llm’s for this does not indicate how you use your mind overall.
      • johnea 1y ago
        > which you also will not do, because you're a person with working legs who chooses to use a wheelchair.
    • raincole 1y ago
      Many people with working legs choose to drive. It doesn't mean they don't go to the gym. Actually people even drive to the gym! (surprise, I know)
      • lmm 1y ago
        Many people drive to the gym to play on their phones, sure. But the kind of person who drives generally won't do much actual working out.
  • tehjoker 1y ago
    writing is one of the best way to develop your thinking. students really are cheating themselves if they use LLMs to write their assignments
  • AstroBen 1y ago
    Even if that's true I imagine there's a huge correlation between not trying on other challenging things and using LLMs for papers
  • UncleMeat 1y ago
    Sure. And there are new pedagogies that educators are trying out that help people learn even in the presence of these tools. But a huge amount of "ugh I'm too smart for this assignment" complaining that students do is just kids being immature rather than an honest attempt at learning through other means.
  • pton_xd 1y ago
    > Using llm’s for papers does not mean your brain is atrophying though. There are lots of ways to challenge the mind even if you use llm’s to write some papers. Writing is hard. Sometimes it means sitting with yourself, for hours, without any progress. Leaning on an LLM to ease through those tough moments is 100% short circuiting the learning process. To your point, maybe you're learning something else instead, like when/how to prompt an LLM or something. But you're definitely not learning how to write. Whether that's relevant is a separate discussion.
    • wjholden 1y ago
      Lately I've been saying often the phrase "the process is the product." When you outsource the process, then the product will be fundamentally different from what you would have delivered on your own. In my own case of knowledge work, the value of the reports I write is not in the report itself (nobody ever reads them...) but rather the thinking that went into them and the hard-won wisdom and knowledge we created in our heads.
    • halfadot 1y ago
      > Leaning on an LLM to ease through those tough moments is 100% short circuiting the learning process. Sounds like "back in my days" type of complaining. Do you have any evidence of this "100% reduction" or is it just "AI bad" bandwagoning? > But you're definitely not learning how to write. How would you know? You've never tested him. You're making a far-reaching assumption about someone's learning based on using an aid. It's the equivalent of saying "you're definitely not learning how to ride a bicycle if you use training wheels".
  • anon-3988 1y ago
    If they use LLM for writing papers, they probably use it for other things as well. I have seen so many instances of adult actually skipping the step of "whys" and "whats" and go straight to "ask the LLM and we trim backwards". Its basically adults producing texts of slop messages to each other. It is actually atrophying. You might be in a circle of people that wants to know "why" things work. For example, when there's a bug, we go through several processes of: There's a bug...why does it happen? What were they thinking when they wrote this? How to prevent this from happening? This is true even for simple bugs, but nowadays you just vibe code your away into the solution, asking the AI to fix it over and over without ever understanding how it works. Perhaps its just the way things are. I mean who uses their head to do calculations nowadays? Who knows how to create a blurring effect in physical drawing?
  • mistercheph 1y ago
    Yeah, like playing subway surfers or watching tiktoks.
• palata 1y ago
  > Students who know least of all and don't understand the purpose of writing or problem solving or the limitations of LLMs are currently wasting years of their lives Exactly. I tend to think that the role of a teacher is to get the students to realise what learning is all about and why it matters. The older the students get, the more important it is. The worst situation is a student finishing university without having had that realisation: they got through all of it with LLMs, and probably didn't learn how to learn or how to think critically. Those who did, on the other hand, didn't need the LLMs in the first place.
• deleted 1y ago
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• deadbabe 1y ago
  Someday, LLMs are going to cost actual serious money to use and people will have “LLM bills” to pay every month just to have some semblance of a brain at work. Maybe a portion of salary can just be deducted directly from a paycheck to pay for LLM tools.
  • bluefirebrand 1y ago
    Companies will have to provide the LLM just like retail stores have to provide cash registers for cashiers to use
    • lesuorac 1y ago
      Eh, I think this is going to be an outdated take. Employees are increasingly expected to use personal devices in work settings.
      • bluefirebrand 1y ago
        You are probably in a bubble The vast majority of companies still issue laptops and other hardware
  • phamilton 1y ago
    I can run the Qwen 3 0.6B model directly on my 3-year-old phone, and it can rewrite text and help me clearly explain my views. Even with new models possibly being less open and subsidized options drying up, we still have useful open models available for free on consumer hardware. Source: I used it to write this post.
    • deadbabe 1y ago
      There will be bigger LLMs, too big to run locally
• soerxpso 1y ago
  > I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think I'm there for the degree. If I wanted to learn and engage with material, I could save $60,000 and do that online for free, probably more efficiently. The purpose of a class writing exercise is to get the university to give me the degree, which I cannot do by actually learning the material (and which, for classes I care about, I may have already done without those exercises), but can only do by going through the hoops that professors set up and paying the massive tuition cost. If there were a different system where I could just actually learn something (which probably wouldn't be through the inefficient and antiquated university system) and then get a valid certificate of employability for having actually learned it, that would be great. Unfortunately, however, as long as university professors are gatekeepers of the coveted certificate of employability, they're going to keep dealing with this incentive issue.
  • jrmg 1y ago
    The work this degree will credential you for is so is so disconnected from the areas of study in your degree program - presumably in the same field as the job - that the majority of the things you might learn would not be valuable? I can’t imagine this in my own life. I use concrete things and ways of thinking and working I learned in my CS degree _all the time_.
    • mplanchard 1y ago
      Heck my degree was in biochemistry, and now I’m a programmer, but I still feel like I am constantly using skills I developed in school. The scientific method and good test design transcend all sciences.
      • gopher_space 1y ago
        Same deal, went back for an Anthro degree but jumped back into programming when Ted Cruz killed research. I use that degree every day of my life.
    • schwartzworld 1y ago
• zeroq 1y ago
  You're missing trees for forest. When I was a kid and got an assignement for writing an essey about "why good forces prevailed in Lords of the Rings" as a gate check to see if I actually read the novel I had three choices: (a) read the novel and write the essey myself (b) find an already written essey - not an easy task in pre-internet era but we had books with esseys on most common topics you could "copy-paste" - and risk that the professor is familiar with the source or someone else used the same source (c) ask class mate to give me their essey as a template and rephrase it as my own A and C would let me learn about the novel and let me polish my writing skills. Today I can ask ChatGPT to write me a 4 pages essay about a novel I've never heard of and call it a day. There's no value gained in the process. That's a simple example. The problem is that the same applies to programming. Novice programmer will claim that LLM give them power to take on hard tasks and programm in languages they were not familiar before. But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience. If I ask google maps to plot me a directions from Prague to Brussels it will yield a list of turns that will guide me to my destinations, but by any means I can't claim I've learned topography of Germany in the process.
  • palata 1y ago
    essay* (I don't usually do that, but it appears so many times in the first few sentences that I had to do it here) I agree with your points, though, but I think that they are in agreement with the comment you are answering to...
    • zeroq 1y ago
      Hehe, it's fine, at least it proves that the post was written by human. ;) And yeah, and revisiting the OP we're on the same track.
  • leereeves 1y ago
    > But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience. It sounds like you agree with GP.
  • scarface_74 1y ago
    In the pre-Internet era there were Cliff Notes.
• Aeolun 1y ago
  > It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this I figured this out in high school. It can’t be all that uncommon of a thought that if you are already in school and paying and given time to learn, you might as well do so?
  • palata 1y ago
    I think that figuring this out is a great achievement. Probably one of the goals of school. It depends on many factors and the sooner, the better. Young kids don't get it, they just do what they're asked. That's okay. University students graduating without having figured it out is a problem. And somewhere in the middle is when the average student gets there, hopefully?
  • liveoneggs 1y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGfiSM4H-7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGfiSM4H-7w
• drewcoo 1y ago
  >> the purpose of a class writing exercise > how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this Mastery of a discipline does not imply any pedagogical knowledge, despite anything one of my childhood heroes, Richard Feynman, might have claimed. Despite frequent claims otherwise, in my experience and sampling of PhDs and Masters of different sorts and grad students working toward those degrees, an advanced degree does not teach anyone how to lead or teach. This is true of even some of the folks I knew studying Education itself who were a little too focused on their own research to understand anything "so simple." > cheat themselves out of an education What's "an education," though? For some people, education is focused on how to learn. For others, it's focused on some kind of certification to get a job. Some of us see value in both. And I'm sure there are other minority opinions as well. We, as a society, can't agree. The only thing we can seem to agree on in the US is that college should be expensive and saddle students with ridiculous debt.
• azernik 1y ago
  An analogy I've heard is that it's like using a forklift at the gym. The point is not to get an object from point A to point B, it's to develop skills.
• fallinditch 1y ago
  It's been obvious since ChatGPT blew up in early 2023 that educators had to rethink how they educate. I agree that this situation that the author outlines is unsatisfactory but it's mostly the fault of the education system (and by extension the post author). With a class writing exercise like the author describes, of course the students are going to use an LLM, they would be stupid not to if their classmates are using it. The onus should be on the educators to reframe how they teach and how they test. It's strange how the author can't see this. Universities and schools must change how they do things with respect to AI, otherwise they are failing the students. I am aware that AI has many potential and actual problems for society but AI, if embraced correctly, also has the potential to transform the educational experience in positive ways.
  • easygenes 1y ago
    Amusingly, when I asked o3 to propose changes to the education system which address the author's complaints wrt writing assignments, one of the first things it suggested was transparent prompt logging (basically what the author proposes). https://chatgpt.com/share/6817fe76-973c-8011-acf3-ef3138c144cf https://chatgpt.com/share/6817fe76-973c-8011-acf3-ef3138c144...
    • fallinditch 1y ago
      O3 actually came up with a good blueprint for an 'AI-centric teaching guide'. Impressive.
  • AdieuToLogic 1y ago
    > The onus should be on the educators to reframe how they teach and how they test. It's strange how the author can't see this. > Universities and schools must change how they do things with respect to AI, otherwise they are failing the students. Hard disagree. Students need to answer a fundamental question of themselves; Am I here to learn or to get a passing grade? If it is the former, the latter doesn't really matter. If it is the latter, the former was not the point to begin with.
    • 1y ago
• ozim 1y ago
  I always get triggered when people argue against „rote memorization” - but it also is technique that builds up knowledge, skills and experience. Even if one won’t need that specific know how after exams - just realization how much one can memorize and trying out some approaches to optimize it is where people grow/learn.
  • colechristensen 1y ago
    Memorizing things is somewhat helpful but being able to parrot back answers to questions is not at all the same thing as knowledge, skills, or experience. Memorizing a bunch of facts is an adequate way to fool someone into thinking you have those things. Testing for memorized facts is a good way to misidentify useful skills.
    • bigstrat2003 1y ago
      And yet there is still value in facts. For example, learning the ideal gas law in high school has enabled me to understand in my adult life how gases will react when compressed or when released. Yet the ideal gas law is a simple fact that you can memorize in minutes. In this case, memorizing that small fact about physics enabled me to apply it to gain understanding of other situations. I believe that the same holds true for other facts one might memorize. Yes, the fact may seem like meaningless trivia (and might even be so at times), but in the right situation knowing that fact can help with understanding. You can certainly spend too much time on memorization of facts, but that doesn't mean it has no place either.
      • lmm 1y ago
        A law is an infinite family of facts, it's already several steps up from memorising a concrete fact like the density of oxygen at room temperature and pressure.
  • lawn 1y ago
    I think memorization is very important for one big reason: Facts and knowledge acts as a scaffolding, making it easier to absorb more information and knowledge the more you have.
• jameshart 1y ago
  I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you. The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.
  • mlsu 1y ago
    The point of education isn't to actually learn though. It's to receive the credential. This is much larger than a cultural problem with the students of today. They believe, rightfully and accurately, that the university degree is yet another part of the machine that they will become a cog in. What should be alarming to everyone is that these students will graduate without having learned anything and then go into the workplace where they will continue to not use their atrophied critical thinking skills, to simply do yet more, as a cog in the machine.
    • bumby 1y ago
      This attitude is part of a more general cultural shift. Back in the 1960s, the majority of students said the primary motivation for going to college was to develop a philosophy of life, and a minority said the main goal was to be very financially successful. Somewhere around the 1980s this started to shift and the proportions are now inverted. * according to the UCLA CIRP freshman survey
      • mschuster91 1y ago
        > Somewhere around the 1980s this started to shift and the proportions are now inverted. Yeah, that's when the great "push for education" came, as well as neoliberalism which preached continuous hustling and individuality. And in the 90s, the ADA and other anti discrimination laws hit, and requiring a college degree was and still is a very useful pre-screening filter for HR to continue discrimination.
        • 1y ago
• righthand 1y ago
  Yeah I’ve been explaining something similar to people. Go ahead and spend your time using the Llm but if you think no one notices you’re wrong. Your colleagues/teammates notice and when it comes time to test your real mettle you will end up last in line because no one has confidence that you can do anything but fake your results. This will hurt you when you want a promotion or raise or recognition of some sort of your efforts.
• gwervc 1y ago
  I avree with starting from the third paragraph. However I disagree about what you said on academics. The few I interrogated on the topic already adapted their practice, notably changing the kind of homework they give, and changing exam format. My students however don't understand that the importance is on the process, not the result. My colleagues do.
• mistercheph 1y ago
  In real life, many education professionals are co-conspirators with students to produce work artifacts in lieu of actual work, ChatGPT has done wonders for both parties to help accelerate production of piles and piles of paper that have the appearance of schoolwork, paper piles > learning is the nash equilibrium of the incentives in our present education scheme in the United States. But don't worry, worst case scenario, all of the kids growing up in this environment that are actually learning will build structures to exploit the prompters, I suspect the present situation where prompters can accidentally find themselves in real jobs is transient and building better filters will become survival imperative for businesses and institutions.
• chairmansteve 1y ago
  There were 40,000 people in Kenya writing papers for American students before LLMs came along. I myself went to college to get the meal ticket, not to learn. But since the system was entirely exam based, I was forced to learn.
• la64710 1y ago
  Actually in real world AIs are doing great and continuosly accelerating and augmenting human efforts to solve open ended problems. Academic institutions should help students embrace AI tools and not just penalize them for using it.
• dheera 1y ago
  I think this is going to be a problem as long as the metrics by which we evaluate students are intolerant of human errors and prioritize right answers over thinking skills. The current situation is that people need to pass exams, get certain GPA's, etc. to have opportunities unlocked to them. Education today is largely about collecting these "stamps" that open doors and not about actual learning.
• szundi 1y ago
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• crossroadsguy 1y ago
  A non-STEM friend got to study/research at really great places across India, Germany, UK, USA, and China for her UG, MA, MPhil, PhD, and postdoc (including lots of field/on ground work). She said that she noted one common theme among her seniors (guides, mentors, colleagues, professors etc) -> that some bad, shit, low quality, whatever published paper is >>>>>>>>>>> high quality work/research but not published or slow to publish (and often for good reason). And she added these were not run of the mill profs who needed those to survive professionally or academically but the likes whose names/reputation often matter more than their departments by many times and don’t need survival at all anymore.
  • deleted 1y ago
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• ookblah 1y ago
  knowledge gap and consolidation just gets wider, like before. the internet rotted peoples brains but also brought that knowledge to people who would have never had the opportunity to learn. those who use the tools to accelerate their learning will do so and others who use it just to get by will see their skills atrophy and become irrelevant.
• dyauspitr 1y ago
  You can’t reason through this problem. If there’s homework due, teenagers are going to use LLMs. The ones that don’t are going to work very hard just to end up with at par work with everyone else. The only solution is returning to a paradigm of heavy in class testing.
• Aerroon 1y ago
  I think these complaints will fall onto deaf ears for at least two reasons: 1. Students are a captive audience. They don't want to be there. It's the law that makes them be there. Even once you're beyond mandatory education this holds true: they were just carried into further education by momentum. They didn't realize they had a real choice or what alternatives were available. 2. A lot of the skills you build in classes aren't useful to you. I spent a lot of time in my English (second) language classes, but it was my use of the internet that really taught me the language. The later years of English classes was just busywork. In my native language classes I had to write a fair number of essays. The only time this was useful was the final exam of that class. I haven't written a "real" essay since. Even if I did, it would probably be in English and use a different style - something taught to me by forum posts.
  • simonask 1y ago
    But this is exactly the problematic viewpoint. You thought that the point of letting you write essays in your native language was to enable you to write essays. It isn't, it never was.
    • Aerroon 1y ago
      But what was the point then? During the final exam, a national exam (all the students did it at the same time in the country) you were given blank pieces of paper, a pen, 10 different topics to choose from, and 6 hours. You pick a topic, write a draft, then write the essay. ~700 words. Bonus points if you use relevant literature or science quotes in it. Quotes you had to memorize, without knowing the topics. None of the topics resonated with you? Tough luck, buddy. Don't have any 'novel' ideas? Figure something out! Cited something the reader didn't know about? Should've known better! Quoted someone the person grading doesn't know? Better hope they're in a good mood! There's a reason they got rid of this style of exam a few years later. Doesn't change that this one thing dominated my native language and literature classes. My biggest takeaway from it is how much I hate my native language class and literature class, but that might've happened even without the essay.
• lukan 1y ago
  "Anyone who actually struggles to solve problems and learn themselves is going to have massive advantages in the long term." Looking forward towards is, but I fear that might be wishful thinking in part. Also pre LLMs I have seen too many deep thinkers fail and pretenders succed. I don't see how LLMs can change that. Unless we all collectivly grow tired if pretenders and fakers amd value deep understanding. I just see not many indication of that.
  • AppleBananaPie 1y ago
    I agree wholeheartedly with your last point. Pretenders are so easily seen by word choice and phrasing alone and yet these valueless additions are accepted and not immediately called out because it's not polite to call out. For example: when minimizing or distancing themselves from their failure or associating themselves with someone else's success. There should be zero tolerance for these types of behaviors in my opinion. I see zero evidence of these behavior even being identified by most, let alone any thought on calling them out or stopping them. You've helped me realize that folks using llms in replace of learning to write themselves are almost certainly giving up all thought of nuance on a topic and are, without realizing it, letting the llm either ignore or add nuance based on its training data and random chance. Hopefully the pendulum will swing the other way and there's a public epiphany but given the loss of nuance over the decades I'm not betting on it
• perrygeo 1y ago
  It's especially damning since cognitive research is not at all ambiguous on the topic. Learning is the result of deliberate practice, intentionally placing yourself in situations where you need to solve problems. The output is irrelevant, building mental capacity is the game. The struggle to learn isn't just some unfortunate obstacle to be optimized away by technology. It is the cognitive mechanism by which we build knowledge.
• indymike 1y ago
  > Students who know least of all and don't understand the purpose of writing or problem solving or the limitations of LLMs are currently wasting years of their lives letting LLMs pull them along as they cheat themselves out of an education My high-school age daughter told me how her small private school solved this problem: They brought back oral exams. There aren't a lot of other good options. Written take-home work and online tests have always been fertile ground for cheating. Another benefit of oral exams: you learn to communicate under stress.
• ajmurmann 1y ago
  This is somewhat reflected in how we value university degrees. You get very little additional salary from having finished all but the last semester of a degree. The big boost all comes from the last semester where you get the degree. You'd expect that the vast majority of the actual knowledge is already there at that point and late dropouts would be seen by employers as some great bargain. It shows that the signaling of the degree trump's the actual knowledge. Good discussion with Bryan Caplan on this: https://www.econtalk.org/bryan-caplan-on-college-signaling-and-human-capital/ https://www.econtalk.org/bryan-caplan-on-college-signaling-a... So, unfortunately the student's behavior is somewhat rational given the incentive structure they operate in.
• insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > let their brains atrophy only to get a piece of paper this isn't the root of the problem the root of the problem is that higher education has become, for the most part, an exercise in getting a piece of paper, so that you can check a box on a form or pass first level screening for a job
• normyguy 1y ago
  Dangers of Intelligence and Other Scientific Essays by Asimov predicted all this hullabaloo quite a while ago. So, yeah, seems like evidence to support your position. Welcome to the party. :)
• qoez 1y ago
  To play devils advocate: There's so many times in school where I remember having to do BS tasks which could have been better spent working on side projects instead. If the students are smart that's how they'll leverage these tools. The vast majority won't but some will.
• justlikereddit 1y ago
  If the purpose is thinking, why is the exercise so often about just producing an artifact out of text? And so often also on wildly tangential subjects that are purely academical artifacts. Cheating with LLMs is the inevitable conclusion of being a subject to a dragged out must-have education system that mostly just cheats the students of their time and money. That's the friendly way to put it. I jumped through all the fucking hoops and now I'm paid handsomely, at every corner of the road leading here you see some pompous academic wankers with more medals than a photoshopped North Korean general.
• rbits 1y ago
  I can definitely tell which of my teachers at university fell into that camp and which didn't. The classes where I left feeling like I learnt the most were the ones where the assignments challenged us and were a core part of the teaching. In many other classes the teaching and the assignments felt separate, with the assignments just existing to test our knowledge rather than grow our skills.
• alex77456 1y ago
  There're several sides to this. Different courses and universities vary in teaching quality greatly. Often the examination criteria is loosely correlated with knowledge or skill and students end up studying 'around' the examination process, rather than learning for the sake of it or for enjoyment. Someone mentioned verbal exams - this is the way to do it, but I only had a pleasure to do very few in my years. Probably because it's seen as 'too time consuming' or 'time wasteful', so the shift is then to the student to waste their time instead. And then you get the occasional course with a lecturer everyone just pays 100% attention to and engages with, where you almost don't need an exam in the first place. 'The problem of LLMs in academia' is a symptom. You get what you measure.
• fennecfoxy 1y ago
  Blame capitalism & endless growth. The blame for the shortening of the journey from input to output lies solely with those that we love to see become billionaires.