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Quebec refuses to reinvest in Lion Electric
- Kon-Peki 1y ago> Public Auction Due to closure of US EV Manufacturing facility – Short Notice! https://workingmancapital.com/auction/lion-electric-chicago-facility/ https://workingmancapital.com/auction/lion-electric-chicago-...
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago[flagged]
- epistasis 1y ago> pursuit of dignity Could you explain that a bit more? I don't see it.
- jaggederest 1y agoI can't speak for the poster above, but someone over the years explained the rise of nationalist movements as largely being based on creating a sense of self worth in people who feel marginalized. It's an emotional reaction to troubling times that puts reassurance ahead of rational behavior, as explicitly rejected in many anti-enlightenment writers. So, being charitable with the OP, I can see how you might say that conservatives in the US believe that the US's declining status in manufacturing created a world in which "a hard working guy can't get ahead any more because everything is made in China", and thus a perception that in order to create equity and dignity we have to return to internal self reliance, ala juche or autarky.
- TulliusCicero 1y agoThe sad thing is, investment into new manufacturing was actually up -- WAY up -- under Biden, as you can see in this chart: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRMFGCON https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRMFGCON Now that Trump is president, looks like it's starting to decline again.
- mjevans 1y agoManufacturing lead times are huge. E.G. Offhand CPUs take something like 5-7 years from initial plans to final tapeouts / production. That's not even considering the issues of planning, permits, installing machines, training workers, etc, in a more down to earth facility like a generic food plant, or heck forbid something seriously regulated (I hope) like making prescription drugs.
- parineum 1y agoThat's a larger reason for offshoring than wages. Your billion dollar factory can start returning the investment years earlier when you manufacture elsewhere.
- mjevans 1y agoLess red tape, easier to manage 'processes', fewer environmental / labor relations... It's those last two, impact on the commons and unfair worker treatment, that are examples of where I _would_ support reasonable tariffs. Particularly if funds from those tariffs went to remediating the impact and were agreed to (also observed) by a majority of other leading countries / economic blocks.
- TulliusCicero 1y agoAnd...what exactly does this have to do with my comment, which was about how much money was being invested into manufacturing construction?
- mjevans 1y agoYou'd mentioned a _timeline_ of manufacturing. I'm pointing out that usually investment has a lag time and giving some examples of lag times I've seen mentioned in publications before to parallel my supposition... That real impact from investment may be 5-10+ years from the initial funding allocation.
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- catlikesshrimp 1y agoWhenever I tried to explain that quote is true anywhere in the world, it was never well received. "a hard working guy can't get ahead any more because xyz" It is ironic there are many very hard working guys in China, Philipines, Vietnam ...
- jaggederest 1y agoYes indeed, it's quite a blinkered world view when considered from a more reality-based perspective, but you can't deny the emotional experience precisely because it's subjective in nature.
- dukeofdoom 1y agoFact is that service jobs don't pay as well, or well at all, and some not even not enough to live on your own, or enough to save for retirement, or to start a family. This resentment is from the young working class males, and the rage is building. You can look at the election in Canada, to see how the younger people voted, and its totally opposite of the boomers they increasingly want to MAID. Populism isn't necessarily bad, It's what gave birth to America. Raging hillbillies rebelling is kind of a thing though out humanity. But particularly successful in America, thanks to the constitution it spawned. And probably many more examples since ...
- pmontra 1y agoI googled: younger people voted for conservatives https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd6j9z3dqg8o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd6j9z3dqg8o MAID: Medical assistance in dying?
- dukeofdoom 1y agoYes, it's no longer a taboo and many younger people are cheering it on. As the older generation controls most of the resources, and wealth. I remember reading somewhere it's actually illegal (or maybe it was a proposed law) to try and discourage someone once they consented. It's currently one in 20 deaths, but that number is growing steadily.
- formerly_proven 1y agoIf service jobs pay way worse than manufacturing jobs, how come manufacturing share v. GDP per head is some kind of inverted parabola? And why are manufacturing jobs deeply unpopular with young people? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-manufacturing-employment https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-manufacturing-empl...
- ljsprague 1y agoHalf a million extra deaths of despair over the last twenty years or so. https://www.takimag.com/article/deaths-of-despair/ https://www.takimag.com/article/deaths-of-despair/ >"But the more I study the White Death of the past two decades, the more I am instead reminded of the tragic trajectory of a now much less publicized American race, Native Americans. Like American Indians, working-class white Americans seem to be living, and dying, like a defeated people, quietly offing themselves with so little to-do that nobody even noticed what was happening to working-class white lifespans for the first fifteen years of this century."
- saagarjha 1y agoI'm not here to say that working class Americans have it easy but it is outrageous to suggest that depression is in any way comparable to the genocide of America's indigenous population.
- ljsprague 1y agoHe's not talking about the "genocide" you dork; he's talking about the aftermath. But thank you for the virtue signal.
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoYup. I'd hazard an analogy to the idea that one can strategically bomb a population into submission via morale collapse [1]. Not only does it not work, in WWII "being bombed hardened civilian will to resist." (Also in Vietnam.) Speaking more concretely: Canadians are willing to suffer more pain today (vis-à-vis America) than before because of the trade war. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/10/21/collections-strategic-airpower-101/ https://acoup.blog/2022/10/21/collections-strategic-airpower...
- brookst 1y agoNot GP, but I think I see what they mean. Trump and his base are very focused on “respect”; remember all the lies about Obama’s “apology tour” (or was that Biden? Or both?) All the bluster, all the talk of “America being respected again”, which anyone who travels internationally knows is 100% the opposite of reality, all the classic strongman politics. The creepy looming over Hilary in the debate. All of it is a wildly misplaced sense of machismo, like being a dangerous asshole someone commands respect. Which is ultimately what that crowd wants; they want to behave badly and still be respected. My take, anyway.
- _JoRo 1y agoI think a lot of it is: feels good to think that you're smarter than most than to acknowledge the reality that you're probably not. My intuition is that this type of thinking is becoming more and more entrenched in American culture. I think by the time the culture as a whole wakes up, things will be significantly worse and many of the people who tried to prevent it will have been pushed out or willfully left.
- bnolsen 1y agoTariffs are bad if you are the United States and tariffs are good if you are any other nation.
- epistasis 1y agoCan you connect that statement to the pursuit of dignity?
- hiddencost 1y ago[flagged]
- Waterluvian 1y agoI’ve not seen any truly convincing case for this but I have heard the idea that a lot of all of this is about not wanting to feel shame for being… well… more Morlock than Eloi.
- Propelloni 1y agoCorrect, if you are living in the USA. As someone living in Germany I would think tariffs levied by the EU and/or Germany are bad for me, because it is going to raise prices in the EU and Germany. I'd wish that the EU would just shrug at the tariffs and not counter them, at least not on consumer goods, because in the end US tariffs cost the US consumer not the EU consumer. Obviously it is not that easy, because of jobs, refusal to be insulted and bullied, etc.
- snkzxbs 1y ago> tariffs levied by the EU and/or Germany are bad for me, because it is going to raise prices in the EU and Germany That’s short term thinking. Signed: a Spaniard who has seen all of the country’s industry dismantled since we joined the EU to be moved to Germany and Eastern Europe and now we’re screwed.
- Propelloni 1y agoThinking otherwise is no-term thinking, tariffs hurt consumers in the short term, long term, or any other term. Anyway, why would some industry move from a comparatively low-cost country like Spain to a comparatively high-cost country like Germany? Manufacturing goes where total cost of manufacturing is lowest. Transportation has become so cheap since the mid-20th century that it has lost all impact on deciding on manufacturing locations. Thus the consumer prices can also be low, independent of the location of the manufacturer and the consumer. Tariffs raise sales prices again in the flawed idea that this would raise manufacturing costs abroad. But of course they don't, and seriously, how would they? Tariffs just make imports more expensive and thus actually make prices go up for consumers in the levying country. In the best case it creates a situation where an out-competed local manufacturer can start to manufacture again at cost and compete on prices. But obviously this will be higher than the price of pre-tariff goods, otherwise the local manufacturer wouldn't have been out-competed in the first place. I mean, come on, that's basic economics. In the second best case the manufacturer just stops exporting to tariff country because its market vanished. Why would it vanish? Right, because consumers cannot afford the goods anymore. This creates an opportunity for a competitor that could manufacture at higher cost to sell goods at prices that still cover its cost, because otherwise -- you already guessed it -- the competitor could have competed before tariffs. Again, basic economics. Whatever, consumers pay more -- and have less choice. Yay for tariffs! So what about "yeah, think long term", what does that mean? Let's say long term means 5-10 years or more, because that's about the time you need to launch manufacturing again. OK, there comes a new manufacturer along, or an ailing one recovers because higher prices cover higher manufacturing costs. In beautiful tariff world nations effectively closed their borders for trade, so markets have become much smaller. Even ignoring the initial higher costs, smaller markets mean smaller scale. The new small market will be unable to match the scaling effects of the old large market, there are just not enough consumers. Thus manufacturing will stay more expensive. This in turn will make goods more expensive for consumers. That's not quite as basic but still. Of course we could veer off into some kind of post-capitalistic market system, and depending on what exactly that means I would probably be fine with it. However, I don't think that's what is going to happen.
- yieldcrv 1y agoFiscal responsibility isn’t inherently an extreme right wing concept, but I understand that the overton window has shifted on many people who didn’t realize they were now on the right
- dragonwriter 1y agoFiscal responsibility isn't a right-wing concept at all, but invoking deficit concerns as a dodge for substance on particular issues that they lack popular support on otherwise is a common practice of the American Right (who have an equally common practice of exploding the deficit when in power.)
- Tostino 1y agoIt has been way more common for Republican administrations and Congress to explode the deficit than when the Dems controlled things. Consistently, for longer than I've been alive.
- stickfigure 1y agoThis is, basically, what pushed me away from the Republican party (aside from the relatively recent culture war). The Republicans always claimed to be the party of fiscal responsibility (as long as I've been alive, which is longer than most people on HN) but by objective measurable fact have consistently been the party of government bloat and high spending. I don't like hypocrites.
- usefulcat 1y agoSeems like it's always easier to sell a tax cut than a spending increase. Somehow most people seem to assume that they'll be significant beneficiaries of a tax cut, but don't assume the same about a tax increase.
- catlikesshrimp 1y agoThe downside of a tax is immediate and measurable. The alleged benefit is neither and understanding the cost-benefit relation requires more faith than transparency.
- stevenwoo 1y agoIt looks like Lion Electric has factories in Canada and the USA. Maybe they see continued investment as a sunk cost fallacy sort of situation, with the current tariff volatility and the debts of the company but it's a short article. I think that attitude only covers a portion of Trump voters and might not be applicable to the Quebec decision but don't have any concrete data, Asimov's 1980 opinion piece on the USA may be more relevant to Trump voters and reflects most of the executive orders and appointments in 2025 so far: There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
- tyre 1y agoJia Toletino’s “The History of a Generation in Seven Scams” makes this point about the US. We have a long history, almost a pride, in con artists. It’s not repulsive. It’s almost culturally alluring the be scammed.
- stevenwoo 1y agoI am much older but feel that essay in my bones, covering some of the ground of David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs. Not only that but it is uncanny how the scammers from the contemporary fiction going way back would fit right in today's America, varying from The Jungle, Elmer Gantry, to Huckleberry Finn off the top of my head.
- parineum 1y agoThat phrase is a lot like one of those phrases that isn't technically racist but a lot of racists say it. That phrase is often used by the upper class to justify their habit of telling the lower classes what's good for them and, frankly, is exactly what's led to them being willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.
- watwut 1y agoRight now, cult of ignorance perfectly describes Trump and his supporters. It is just true.
- Animats 1y agoThey'll have to buy from BYD, like everybody else.
- jagger27 1y agoWhich Canada currently tariffs at 100% (long predates Trump’s scheme).
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- cwillu 1y ago“Long predates” is overstating it, the 100% tariff was put in place in october 2024, following the u.s.'s lead.
- xethos 1y agoI'm sitting in a battery-electric bus from New Flyer this very minute. BYD is hardly the only bus OEM around
- sudosysgen 1y agoQuebec (ARTM/STM) already uses electric buses from Novabus (Volvo), so no.
- mg 1y agoElectric buses are not just about the environment. They are also so much more comfortable. Less noisy, less rattly. I would think it makes society healthier to have quieter, less annoying ways to commute.
- hedora 1y agoAlso, they produce less soot, nox and carbon monoxide for the kids to breathe.
- sudosysgen 1y agoQuebec already has electric city buses built in partnership with Novabus and Hydro-Quebec, they are pretty widespread in Montreal. This is something else, a startup that I've only ever seen schoolbuses from.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 1y agoThey're also more expensive, so cities buy fewer of them, leading to more cars on the road, worsening the problem
- mg 1y agoOnly more expensive in terms of the initial purchase price. Maintenance and energy costs are much lower than for a gasoline bus.
- snkzxbs 1y agoUntil you have to change the battery a few years later and it’s cheaper to buy a new bus.
- b112 1y agoActually, this is an interesting point. Batteries tend to have a max charge/discharge cycle. Unlike a consumer car, buses see a lot more distance. I wonder how much more quickly the batteries go.
- ccppurcell 1y agoWait I don't understand is this just an excuse? Is this a slightly more subtle example of an "anti" movement being emboldened by what's happening in the US, despite the same legal framework not applying? Like the anti abortionists in Europe are on the rise. Or is there a legitimate reason that it depends a bit on US policy?
- lmz 1y agoReliant on exports to the US?
- perbu 1y agoYeah, but aren't these bussed mostly subject to state policy and not federal policy?
- satanfirst 1y agoIf there is a federal tariff on Canadian vehicles that applies then everyone including states has to decide if they want to purchase what they intended or keep the budget they planned.
- StressedDev 1y agoTariffs, imports, and exports are controlled by the Federal,Government of the United States of America. The states have no power in these areas.
- jimbob45 1y ago[flagged]
- watwut 1y ago[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
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- plorg 1y agoHuh. I suppose that bus contract probably does make up a sizeable amount of their business. I last saw them at a trade show where they had their class 5 and 6 cab over truck chasses. There was a huge push for EV package delivery, for which that size was ideal. Their offerings looked pretty polished compared to the competition. I would think the CARB rules (and those in the other states that follow CARB) would stir a bit more demand for Lion's product offerings, but I can see what Quebec would be hesitant about such a company operating internationally in the r current political environment.
- pluc 1y agoWe just completely lost all investments in Northvolt so the government is being very careful with high profile investments into renewables, especially when we've bankrolled them before and they couldn't deliver.
- rasz 1y agoBut wasnt Northvolt a stupid idea to begin with? They ordered whole Chinese manufacturing line but forgot to secure technology transfer? Paid for the line and then discovered it takes more than pressing buttons to make good product.
- riehwvfbk 1y agoAs a business idea Northvolt was stupid. As a money laundering scheme it was pretty good.
- 0xbadc0de5 1y agoGovernment should not be backstopping poorly run companies from the consequences of their failure to execute. That will only encourage further irresponsibility.
- Copernicron 1y agoDoes that apply to Boeing too? Letting poorly run companies fail runs the risk of causing national security problems when you're suddenly dependent on a hostile power for parts of your supply chain.
- StressedDev 1y agoI am not sure what your point is. If Boeing went bankrupt, someone could buy them and the company would continue running. Also, Boeing is not the most important defense contractor in the US. They don’t make the F35 and they don’t make the new B21 Raider. The world is not going to end if Boeing disappears.
- knowitnone 1y ago"the group was seeking government aid of about $24 million to relaunch the company." sure, let's throw away another $24 million in a company that failed
- kotaKat 1y agoHey, it worked for Bombardier.
- rafelolszewski 1y ago[dead]