6 ms·
Look, if you willingly have any piece of your stack relying on Microsoft you have to be ready for the rug pull. They WILL fuck you, it's guaranteed.
by yoyohello13 2y ago
Look, if you willingly have any piece of your stack relying on Microsoft you have to be ready for the rug pull. They WILL fuck you, it's guaranteed.
- znpy 2y agoAnything that’s not gpl-licensed is going to pull the rug from under your feet, people should have learned this by now. Also, if you do open source contributions, never ever agree to assign copyright to the project: doing so means the project owners can relicense the code base, even towards proprietary license.
- kstrauser 2y agoAbsolutely. I signed one copyright assignment, ever, with the FSF. I trust them enough to do that, but they're just about the only ones.
- eikenberry 2y agoThey don't require it anymore.
- kstrauser 2y agoBetter yet.
- tuveson 2y agoFreeBSD must be pulling a very long con, then.
- znpy 2y agoUh, yes? Half of the initial mac os x kernel was ripped off freebsd, giving pretty much nothing back. Afaik netapp is also basing their system on bsd. Sony uses freebsd as the OS for their playstation. And many more, giving essentially nothing back.
- hedora 2y agoRegarding apple: They support cups and clang, and stuff like swift and webkit. Also, the darwin kernel is open source. I’d be shocked if netapp hard forked bsd and doesn’t upstream fixes.
- oynqr 2y agoThey support the version of cups that nobody uses anymore, except themselves.
- jollyllama 2y agoONTAP is a fork of BSD (dunno if they upstream or not) and NetApp are far from the only ones in the storage sector who have done this.
- voidspark 2y ago> Half of the initial mac os x kernel was ripped off freebsd, giving pretty much nothing back. That is open source. https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macOS https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macO... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU
- spauldo 2y agoYou'll notice the FreeBSD folks don't seem to be particularly bothered by this. FreeBSD loses nothing to Apple or NetAPP. This attitude of "OMG you're being ripped off" any time a company incorporates code from a BSD/MIT/whatever licensed project baffles me.
- hedora 2y agoYeah. I think project governance matters more than license, and the BSDs are great examples. Having said that, I’ve soured on the GPL. V3 more-or-less bans companies from selling you hardware that runs free software, but lets Google, Meta, etc use the software to expand their cloud-based monopolies where surveillance capitalism and enshittification have won out. AGPL or BSL seem much better if you want free as in freedom. BSD and Apache at least don’t force your software off of machines that end users control. Yes, BSL is not open (TM) or free (TM) or whatever. It’s still better IMHO, since it at least has some path to revenue for the developers.
- pas 2y agoAre there AGPL or BSL success stories? (Ie. projects that started as such and became/remained sustainable?)
- znpy 2y agoThe whole Grafana ecosystem afaik. They are thriving as a company and they don’t risk amazon or some other company coming in and selling a forked version of their software (see redis/valkey, elasticsearch/opensearch, etc)
- TuxSH 2y agoA little off-topic but a few companies (e.g. Aerospike) use AGPL in the free versions of their paid products to avoid getting leeched off.
- aranchelk 2y agoNot to quibble, but VSCode (and GitHub for that matter) are part of my tooling, not part of any of my stacks. To me the former is tolerable, the latter is not.
- corytheboyd 2y agoI think they are talking about products like Cursor.
- aranchelk 2y agoAh, that’s a painful situation.
- corytheboyd 2y agoEh MS wasn’t going to just let VSCode derivatives soak up all the AI gold rush money, these companies knew the risks. I wonder what it’s going to mean for projects like Zig, a migration of VSCode refugees could crank things up to 11 pretty quick.
- hansvm 2y agoHow do VSCode refugees impact a project like Zig?
- cstrahan 2y agoI would bet they meant the editor “Zed”.
- corytheboyd 2y agoShoot yeah I did haha
- degurechaff 2y agoZed don't have many extensions like VSCode.
- kittikitti 2y agoThen they will gaslight you.
- ohgr 2y agoYep. Was a Microsoft dev from 1992 until 2017. Won’t touch them now because I spent my entire career rewriting rug pulls. It paid off a mortgage and fed me well but it was a bad outcome for my orgs and customers. If anyone remembers WCF/AppFabric/WWF and Silverlight, that was the last stack I rewrote someone out of the shit on.
- Aloha 2y agoI’m still dealing with the long goodbye of a silverlight app which now must be somehow ported.
- EasyMark 2y agoif there's an escape hatch you should probably use it. In my experience companies never support you during rewrites "well why don't you just convert the code to X language" almost never works on a huge project, it takes a ground up approach, and relying on the old stuff as "more like guidelines than the actual law"
- Aloha 2y agoThe escape hatch is OpenSilver basically. A clean rewrite isnt possible for a variety of business reasons.
- mrj 2y agoI started my career rewriting a product using Microsoft's DNA business server with Java and never looked back. I'm shocked this keeps happening, honestly. I guess I'm a "never again" sort but surprised there's not more companies refusing to deal with Microsoft. Due to experiences like that I refused to buy volume licenses from them, too. Sometime later I got an audit demand for which I had a reply ready. "lol, no."
- globnomulous 2y agoSorry if I'm being dense, but what is an "audit demand?" (Looked it up and couldn't find anything obviously relevant.)
- IcyWindows 2y agoI don't see how it can be a rug pull when in this case it was clearly against the terms of use?
- akdor1154 2y agoLucky no-one is reliant on niche tools like NPM or GitHub, otherwise they'd be feeling mightily insecure right now.
- nicce 2y agoOr ChatGPT… maybe not their development but that is who runs it.
- cess11 2y agoNow, I get why you made the quip, but I for one keep both of those out of the business I run for this exact reason: I do not trust MICROS~1 in the medium to long term. I also present the CEO and board with other arguments, like moral ones about involvement in atrocities and tyranny, legal ones regarding things like data protection, market related ones such as the likelihood of a future showdown between the EU and US. But the risk that MICROS~1 fucks us over directly is even easier for them to understand, because they have been using Windows and Office for decades and are quite queasy about 10 going EOL and what the next set of annoyances in document management will be that they'll have to suffer under. It's something they have immediate experience of and didn't like. A year from now it's probable we'll only have a couple of Windows machines left, because some of our customers use software that doesn't run under Wine and tries to block execution under both debuggers and container environments.
- dmz73 2y agoI don't like to be seen as defending Microsoft, they definitely have their share of faults, but as far as business goes, I think Microsoft is the least likely company to screw you over as a (business) customer. Microsoft has kept old software working pretty much unchanged for the last 20 years. I know, I still have software built on early Windows 95/NT4 that works fine on Windows 11...and with some registry tweaks Windows 11 will run on a computer from 2005 without too many issues (sure, 3rd party security software and js-heavy web pages will be slow but that is not directly MS fault). Windows 10 EOL in 2025 is only for consumer level stuff, you can get Windows 10 support for enterprise for another 2 years at least and some versions even up to 2029, so again, if you are a business, you are taken care of (if you are "cheaping" you way with Windows Home and Pro in business then you kind of get what you pay for, I am sure you as a business don't give away free products/services for years on end). And you can keep using your Windows 10 after EOL, not like they lock you out, they just don't support you...just like you don't repair stuff for free after warranty end. Compare that to any other tech company that churns through HW and SW much faster and much more severely where old HW and SW no longer works or cannot connect to the internet or use the latest browser so you cannot connect to the latest HTTPS servers. Even open source software breaks compatibilty with older versions much more oftern than Microsoft, but since that is "free" people just shrug it off.
- jenadine 2y agoIt's hard not to rely on Microsoft. Open source project hosted on GitHub, for the network effect. Use Rust which also rely on GitHub for crates.io
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago> Open source project hosted on GitHub, for the network effect. > Use Rust which also rely on GitHub for crates.io It is a very good idea to get rid of both as far and soon as possible. And, as I wrote at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43793095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43793095 in some circles it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub" and somewhat look down upon open-source projects that have their central repository on GitHub (i.e. are willing to enslave themselves to Microsoft for some stupid "network effect").
- jen20 2y ago> it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub" You’ve said this a few times, without stating which circles? I assume mostly among four-year-olds given the level of wit involved?
- sitkack 2y agoThey are attributing it "in some circles", like when a news actor says, "some people say". They are only trying to making shithub catch on like M$. Although, given how lax they have been at removing Golang infected malware, it might just have legs.
- iris700 2y agoWikipedia calls those "weasel words".
- gkbrk 2y ago> it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub" I talk to a lot of people developing both open-source, and proprietary software. Some of those are on GitHub, others on SourceHut, others on Codeberg. I have never heard, not even once, a single person other than you use the word ShitHub. Maybe it's used in some obscure circle you are in, but it's nowhere close to fashionable.
- pjmlp 2y agoDon't build castles in other people's kingdoms, apparently a lesson that keeps being relearnt.
- croes 2y agoThen it's hard to build anything.
- pjmlp 2y agoWhy should it be easy to start with? Hardly anything is given for free in this life, it has to be earned.
- croes 2y agoLet me clarify. You need an OS, you need compiler, you need some libraries. Unless you write all that by yourself you always build in somebodies kingdom.
- pjmlp 2y agoIndeed, however all of those have a license that most certainly was abied for, at least if we are speaking about doing the right thing. Many of these "building castles in other people kingdoms" projects, tend to use free tier WebAPIs, forked projects, reversed engineered protocols, and then folks get entitled when the owners pull the carpet.
- Max_aaa 2y agoDo not forget the hardware. And having the means of creating said hardware.
- jeroenhd 2y agoIt took them five years to actually take action on enforcing their ToS. It's not as much of a rug pull as it's the result of their competitors blatantly ignoring the license on proprietary code from a proprietary code giant. Unless the developers of the IDEs hit by this never actually read the ToS, of course, which would only make them less reliable as an IDE provider.
- pas 2y agoNah, obviously an AI read the ToS and wrote the code for Cursor! After all MS is completely okay with their AI darling reading ToS-protected stuff.
- beanjuiceII 2y agomeanwhile here i am using dot net 4.5 on windows server 2022 haven't changed the code in a decade
- Salgat 2y agoIs it really a rug pull? It's a closed source extension with terms specific to use with vs code. Nothing has changed in that regard. All they did was close a workaround for a competing company's product.