14 ms·

I always found it interesting how hacker culture is largely propped up on the protections society has carved out for librarians following world war 2 (where cer

by dijit 2y ago

I always found it interesting how hacker culture is largely propped up on the protections society has carved out for librarians following world war 2 (where certain sections of society had been identified based on what books they had looked at). The hacker culture of “information wants to be free” is largely predicated on the librarian mantras of the same sentiment and only given protection by western europe after clear and serious abuse. Librarians are the very forefront of information access and the privacy of looking up certain information, we owe them a lot.

nimish 2y ago
Librarians are also at the forefront of censorship and shaping information, so we also must put them under the greatest of scrutiny. We don't live in an age where access to information is limited. Curation (retrieval) is more important than ever.
- pyfon 2y ago
  Maybe true in 1999? But now the library is a tiny fraction of where people get information from.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  What's an example of librarians banning books? I typically see library books being removed due to regulations passed by federal, state, city councils, school boards, etc. There may be some examples out there of librarians refusing to lend out books, but I think they're pretty rare, and you may be thinking of those other groups.
StopDisinfo910 2y ago
That’s in a lot of way a reversal. The default state of thing before World War II was very little data collection and even less aggregation. Everything pretty much started in the 30s with data processing mechanisation and World War II didn’t end with more protection. It ended with states having the tools to collect and feeling ready to use them with things like the generalisation of passports, social security numbers becoming standard. It has actually pretty much gone down hill from there since. I think people overestimate what’s appropriate to collect and misunderstand how things used to work which is why they tolerate so much monitoring.
neilv 2y ago
Good observation. Years ago, I pointed this out in a university forum, where a lot of the students didn't know this history of public librarians as intellectual defenders of freedom (e.g., promoting access to information by all, protecting privacy of records against tyranny, resisting censorship and book burnings). I don't know whether this awareness-raising was net-positive, because it turned out that had painted a target on their backs, for a bad-apple element who was opposed to all those things, in that microcosm. With that anecdote in mind, at the moment, with all the misaligned craziness going on the last few months especially, and the brazen subverting of various checks&balances against sabotage... I wonder how to balance communicating to the populace what remaining defenses we have against tyranny, balanced against the possibly of adding to an adversary's list of targets to neutralize. In the specific case of public libraries, techbros have already insinuated themselves, and partially compromised some of the traditional library mission, before the more overt fascists have even started to use their own tools. (Go check your local library Web site or computerized catalog, and there's a good chance you'll find techbro individual-identifying cross-Web tracking added gratuitously, even for the physical copy media. I just did in mine. And the digital-only lending may have to be thrown out entirely.) But when we happen to realize non-library ways to further good ideals, in a period of being under occupation by comically evil adversaries with near-ubiquitous surveillance (again, thanks in part to techbros), we might have to figure out discreet ways to promote the goodness.
13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago
[dead]
reader_x 2y ago
The librarians I know are adamant about keeping private the records of what patrons have checked out or searched. I don’t know the history you refer to, where library records were used to identify certain sections of society. Where can I read more about that?
- Larrikin 2y ago
  The first sentence tells you what to look for
- dijit 2y ago
  Here’s some entrypoint: https://www.onb.ac.at/en/more/about-us/timeline/1938-political-abuse-of-the-library-under-the-ns-regime https://www.onb.ac.at/en/more/about-us/timeline/1938-politic... It seems annoying to search for, so I don’t blame you for not finding anything.
- matwood 2y ago
  It's not just librarians, but many states have laws protecting patron privacy around what they have read. https://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/statelaws https://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/statelaws
greenie_beans 2y ago
rip aaron swartz
Ferret7446 2y ago
> The hacker culture of “information wants to be free” is largely predicated on the librarian mantras of the same sentiment Maybe? It is also a fact of reality. You need to look no further than the information in your cells, which has certainly spread extremely freely since the very first spodge of RNA to exist on this planet. The very concept of "locking down information" was something that humans had to invent, with mixed success historically.
o11c 2y ago
It has never really been about "information wants to be free". Librarians (and hackers, etc.) have always restricted the flow of information. It's just called "curation" when you agree with it rather than "censorship".
- karaterobot 2y ago
  I have an MLIS, and worked in libraries for years. It's a common misconception that librarians choose books they think are best, or most morally or intellectually instructive for readers. This never happens, or almost never happens. They buy and lend books that the community has asked to read, or which they believe the community wants to read, based on, e.g. popularity. There's not a council of elders deciding what you're allowed to read.
- collingreen 2y ago
  I get your meaning but it feels overly reductive. I'd call good faith picking a catalog and not trying to prevent people from finding certain books "curation". I'd call "delete anything that says gay" censorship.
  - toast0 2y ago
    It's hard to have an objective standard. A curator and a censor are both trying to pick content they think is appropriate for their community. There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. I would think most librarians would consider adding requested content or at least referring the patron to another library or other means to access it.
    - AnIrishDuck 2y ago
      > There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. My partner is a librarian and I can tell you they frequently add books they personally dislike or outright loathe (be it for content reasons or if they just think it's a bad book). This can happen at the request of the community, or even if they believe somebody in the community might want said book. This "curation is actually censorship" balderdash is completely out of touch with what library curation looks like and how librarians work and see their responsibility to their community
soulofmischief 2y ago
I grew up in an extremely repressed and abusive household. I wasn't allowed to watch the majority of television or film, and my room was regularly searched for offending non-Christian records and such. My aunt was the librarian at my elementary and middle school. I was a voracious reader, but I had a collegiate reading level since i was 6 or 7 and the books available to us in our school library just weren't cutting it. I also pined for more adult-oriented themes and plots. Out of sympathy, my aunt allowed me to access the "forbidden zone" of adult books of which our school apparently had a large cache, hidden in the back rooms. She didn't tell my guardians, and I can't overstate how important this was for me. I've always deeply admired her work and attitude towards information accessibility, and it left an indelible mark on me.
- aj7 2y ago
  See my comment about 612.6 above.
- protocolture 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - huijzer 2y ago
    > I also dont get why whenever I bring this up I am immediately asked if I have kids and whether I would support some random fascist book being shelved. That escalated quickly
  - squigz 2y ago
    Censorship is an American thing? Boy do I have news for you...
    - ndr42 2y ago
      Well, yes, it is clearly a thing in the USA [1]. I hope I get you right, but you seem to insinuate that somebody else is worse and therefore its not "an American thing"? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_...
threatofrain 2y ago
The next/current phase of the library and librarian is as a community center, and not exactly a center of information. Instead it will be eyed for its physical accommodations for purposes like student meeting rooms, or tutors who rent rooms to sell their services.
- Loughla 2y ago
  That has been a thing for about a decade. Librarians and libraries are more like community outreach centers now that you can Google anything. Many are struggling to help people with media literacy, and I don't know of any that are really doing a great job with that.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    Mine has rooms to park your kids in with cartoons playing on a TV. I want my kids to be interested in reading, not watching cartoons. When I discussed this with them, their answer was "Well, kids aren't that interested in books anymore."
    - UtopiaPunk 2y ago
      Oof, that's too bad. The libraries near me are great for my toddler. They do story time and play time, and it's a good chance for my kid to play with other kids. My kiddo always checks out a book (or three) when we visit.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      Mine has 3d printers and laser cutters. I don't have kids but if I did I wouldn't mind having a place to park them while my print finished. Ideally they'd be interested in more enriching activities, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that that's maybe harder than it sounds.
    - mingus88 2y ago
      That’s a parenting problem. Can’t blame the library. They need to meet people where the are. When I had a kid I made a vow that I would immediately buy them any book they showed interest in. Any other toy or game would be a discussion but books, anytime anywhere. And we put up bookshelves, so they would always have books nearby. There was a study I read where just the existence of books was beneficial, regardless of how much reading was done. https://www.jcfs.org/blog/importance-having-books-your-home https://www.jcfs.org/blog/importance-having-books-your-home Finally, I read to them every night I could. Just 10 minutes a night. Then you just put limits on screens. Let them get bored. They will start reading on their own, and when they do it’s just amazing.

by dijit 2y ago

nimish 2y ago

Librarians are also at the forefront of censorship and shaping information, so we also must put them under the greatest of scrutiny. We don't live in an age where access to information is limited. Curation (retrieval) is more important than ever.

pyfon 2y ago
Maybe true in 1999? But now the library is a tiny fraction of where people get information from.
karaterobot 2y ago
What's an example of librarians banning books? I typically see library books being removed due to regulations passed by federal, state, city councils, school boards, etc. There may be some examples out there of librarians refusing to lend out books, but I think they're pretty rare, and you may be thinking of those other groups.

StopDisinfo910 2y ago

That’s in a lot of way a reversal. The default state of thing before World War II was very little data collection and even less aggregation. Everything pretty much started in the 30s with data processing mechanisation and World War II didn’t end with more protection. It ended with states having the tools to collect and feeling ready to use them with things like the generalisation of passports, social security numbers becoming standard. It has actually pretty much gone down hill from there since. I think people overestimate what’s appropriate to collect and misunderstand how things used to work which is why they tolerate so much monitoring.

neilv 2y ago

Good observation. Years ago, I pointed this out in a university forum, where a lot of the students didn't know this history of public librarians as intellectual defenders of freedom (e.g., promoting access to information by all, protecting privacy of records against tyranny, resisting censorship and book burnings). I don't know whether this awareness-raising was net-positive, because it turned out that had painted a target on their backs, for a bad-apple element who was opposed to all those things, in that microcosm. With that anecdote in mind, at the moment, with all the misaligned craziness going on the last few months especially, and the brazen subverting of various checks&balances against sabotage... I wonder how to balance communicating to the populace what remaining defenses we have against tyranny, balanced against the possibly of adding to an adversary's list of targets to neutralize. In the specific case of public libraries, techbros have already insinuated themselves, and partially compromised some of the traditional library mission, before the more overt fascists have even started to use their own tools. (Go check your local library Web site or computerized catalog, and there's a good chance you'll find techbro individual-identifying cross-Web tracking added gratuitously, even for the physical copy media. I just did in mine. And the digital-only lending may have to be thrown out entirely.) But when we happen to realize non-library ways to further good ideals, in a period of being under occupation by comically evil adversaries with near-ubiquitous surveillance (again, thanks in part to techbros), we might have to figure out discreet ways to promote the goodness.

13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago

[dead]

reader_x 2y ago

The librarians I know are adamant about keeping private the records of what patrons have checked out or searched. I don’t know the history you refer to, where library records were used to identify certain sections of society. Where can I read more about that?

Larrikin 2y ago
The first sentence tells you what to look for
dijit 2y ago
Here’s some entrypoint: https://www.onb.ac.at/en/more/about-us/timeline/1938-political-abuse-of-the-library-under-the-ns-regime https://www.onb.ac.at/en/more/about-us/timeline/1938-politic... It seems annoying to search for, so I don’t blame you for not finding anything.
matwood 2y ago
It's not just librarians, but many states have laws protecting patron privacy around what they have read. https://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/statelaws https://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/statelaws

greenie_beans 2y ago

rip aaron swartz

Ferret7446 2y ago

> The hacker culture of “information wants to be free” is largely predicated on the librarian mantras of the same sentiment Maybe? It is also a fact of reality. You need to look no further than the information in your cells, which has certainly spread extremely freely since the very first spodge of RNA to exist on this planet. The very concept of "locking down information" was something that humans had to invent, with mixed success historically.

o11c 2y ago

It has never really been about "information wants to be free". Librarians (and hackers, etc.) have always restricted the flow of information. It's just called "curation" when you agree with it rather than "censorship".

karaterobot 2y ago
I have an MLIS, and worked in libraries for years. It's a common misconception that librarians choose books they think are best, or most morally or intellectually instructive for readers. This never happens, or almost never happens. They buy and lend books that the community has asked to read, or which they believe the community wants to read, based on, e.g. popularity. There's not a council of elders deciding what you're allowed to read.
collingreen 2y ago
I get your meaning but it feels overly reductive. I'd call good faith picking a catalog and not trying to prevent people from finding certain books "curation". I'd call "delete anything that says gay" censorship.
- toast0 2y ago
  It's hard to have an objective standard. A curator and a censor are both trying to pick content they think is appropriate for their community. There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. I would think most librarians would consider adding requested content or at least referring the patron to another library or other means to access it.
  - AnIrishDuck 2y ago
    > There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. My partner is a librarian and I can tell you they frequently add books they personally dislike or outright loathe (be it for content reasons or if they just think it's a bad book). This can happen at the request of the community, or even if they believe somebody in the community might want said book. This "curation is actually censorship" balderdash is completely out of touch with what library curation looks like and how librarians work and see their responsibility to their community

soulofmischief 2y ago

I grew up in an extremely repressed and abusive household. I wasn't allowed to watch the majority of television or film, and my room was regularly searched for offending non-Christian records and such. My aunt was the librarian at my elementary and middle school. I was a voracious reader, but I had a collegiate reading level since i was 6 or 7 and the books available to us in our school library just weren't cutting it. I also pined for more adult-oriented themes and plots. Out of sympathy, my aunt allowed me to access the "forbidden zone" of adult books of which our school apparently had a large cache, hidden in the back rooms. She didn't tell my guardians, and I can't overstate how important this was for me. I've always deeply admired her work and attitude towards information accessibility, and it left an indelible mark on me.

aj7 2y ago
See my comment about 612.6 above.
protocolture 2y ago
[flagged]
- huijzer 2y ago
  > I also dont get why whenever I bring this up I am immediately asked if I have kids and whether I would support some random fascist book being shelved. That escalated quickly
- squigz 2y ago
  Censorship is an American thing? Boy do I have news for you...
  - ndr42 2y ago
    Well, yes, it is clearly a thing in the USA [1]. I hope I get you right, but you seem to insinuate that somebody else is worse and therefore its not "an American thing"? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_...

threatofrain 2y ago

The next/current phase of the library and librarian is as a community center, and not exactly a center of information. Instead it will be eyed for its physical accommodations for purposes like student meeting rooms, or tutors who rent rooms to sell their services.

Loughla 2y ago
That has been a thing for about a decade. Librarians and libraries are more like community outreach centers now that you can Google anything. Many are struggling to help people with media literacy, and I don't know of any that are really doing a great job with that.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  Mine has rooms to park your kids in with cartoons playing on a TV. I want my kids to be interested in reading, not watching cartoons. When I discussed this with them, their answer was "Well, kids aren't that interested in books anymore."
  - UtopiaPunk 2y ago
    Oof, that's too bad. The libraries near me are great for my toddler. They do story time and play time, and it's a good chance for my kid to play with other kids. My kiddo always checks out a book (or three) when we visit.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Mine has 3d printers and laser cutters. I don't have kids but if I did I wouldn't mind having a place to park them while my print finished. Ideally they'd be interested in more enriching activities, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that that's maybe harder than it sounds.
  - mingus88 2y ago
    That’s a parenting problem. Can’t blame the library. They need to meet people where the are. When I had a kid I made a vow that I would immediately buy them any book they showed interest in. Any other toy or game would be a discussion but books, anytime anywhere. And we put up bookshelves, so they would always have books nearby. There was a study I read where just the existence of books was beneficial, regardless of how much reading was done. https://www.jcfs.org/blog/importance-having-books-your-home https://www.jcfs.org/blog/importance-having-books-your-home Finally, I read to them every night I could. Just 10 minutes a night. Then you just put limits on screens. Let them get bored. They will start reading on their own, and when they do it’s just amazing.